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Kick 'em While They're Up

(My 2 cents) ... Whether we won last night or not, there are severals areas of concern that need to be addressed:

  1. COACH NELLIE: 4 new players for 3 games have netted 3 different starting lineups (last night being the worst)... 2 cents ... whether the trade happened or not, Nellie has been 'f'ing with the line up all season. Nellie needs to pick 5 (I know JRich won't be ready for a while) that will start every game and play most of the 1st quarter (subbing for foul problems only) so that the players can gel in game situation and players know their roles. Its much easier on a person when one knows what one will be doing the next day (a player is prepared). And, STOP with the 2 PG crap - it ain't working!!!
  2. BD (I love this guy, most of this site seems to love JRich) has been crap the last 2-3 weeks. Whether it is family issue or not, his play has been very selfish lately. The Laker game be the worst. He kept challenging Kobe (7 times) and everytime came up empty. He has been shooting too much to be a successful PG and to make us successful.
  3. Monta! Monta! Monta! Yes, he made the 'shot' last night. BUT, (and most of this is Nellie's fault) is confused right now and that is forcing him to make bad decisions. He will be a very successful #2 guard in the NBA. HOWEVER, he will NEVER be a successful PG. WHY? He has too many skills to be a PG. These skills make him a selfish player (as a #2 guard it is required). Therefore, passing the ball is not his forte. And, forcing him to do so will only make him look bad and is lowering his confindence. Especially, now that we have Saurunas, he doesn't need to be a PG. Let him 'practice' in practice not in a real game.
  4. Mickael! Michael! MP! I'm confused. NO, he is. Can somebody find out what is going on inside HIS head?
Other than that, the NEW Warrior team is looking pretty damn good. The D looks like it has a future. As soon as we have a consistent starting 5, offensively we will be even better. All the players need is their defined roles not dog houses.

PS, the final 5 on the court was my suggested starters. They had entensity both offensively and defensively in the closing minutes. It would be interesting to see what they could do to start a game!

Also, let's hope the new warriors can avoid their past. Win a good game against a decent opponent only to fall to a crappy team like the Bobcats.

"There is a thin line between confidence and cockiness" The W's have no reason to be cocky, but they play that way sometimes.

Go Warriors!!

The W's have had 23 different starting 5's in 43 games. Way too many!!!

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Record When in the Starting Lineup:

Player                             GS       W        L       PCT

Kelenna Azubuike          3          1          2        .333

Matt Barnes                    22        12        10       .545

Andris Biedrins              36        17        19       .472

Baron Davis                    36        17        19       .472

Mike Dunleavy                6          1          5        .166

Monta Ellis                      26        11        15       .423

Adonal Foyle                   3          2          1        .666

Al Harrington                  2          0          2        .000

Stephen Jackson             2          0          2        .000

Keith McLeod                 2          1          1        .500

Troy Murphy                  17         8          9        .421

Mickael Pietrus               31        14        17       .452

Jason Richardson          23        12        11       .522

Anthony Roberson        1          0          1        .000

 

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Good post...
  1. I think Nellie has to have some latitude with his starting lineup over the next few games in order to see just what he has. The new guys have to show him what they can do in different game situations, so I don't mind that the starters change from game to game as long as the coaching staff reacts quickly when things aren't working well. Last night, for instance, it was obvious from the start that MP3 wasn't "on". We all know that can change during the game, but it didn't. I thought he had way too much floor time.
  2. I agree that BD is taking too many jumpers. He's best when he drives to the basket but for some reason he keeps throwing up the mid-to-long range shots when he's not hitting them. I don't know what you do about that, though, because he's so valuable in so many other ways. You can't take him off the court for very long because the game slows down too much and gets sloppy when he's not running the show.
  3. I'm not ready to give up on Monta as a PG, although he doesn't yet have the mindset to be a good one. His lazy passes and other turnovers are frustrating. BUT, if you consider that two years ago he was playing against high schoolers, he has come a long way and will, I think, improve. Game experience is the only way for him to learn, even though it's sometimes scary. I think the rap on Sarunas (slow, not a good ball handler) is, so far, pretty accurate, so I'm not sure he's the answer to spell BD.
  4. MP has obviously been off his rhythm the last few games and when he is, he looks terrible. I say never let him put the ball on the floor. It's either catch and shoot or feed him for a dunk, but he's out of control on the dribble. And when he's off, as he was last night, get him off the floor!
BTW, it looks like Matt Barnes got the message. He was a force against the Nets with his hustle and shooting. And I'd still like to see Abuzuike get some minutes, too. I trust Nellie, though, to get his guys out there when the situation is right.

Go Warriors!

Optimist

by believer on Jan 25, 2007 11:59 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good Points . . .
  1. Sure he must be able to but 23 in 43 games is crazy. And, starting Sarunas and Baron had no chance from the get go.
  2. Nellie could say, "Baron, lets try and get the guys going before launching the jumpers" even though I am a big fan of "take what the defense is giving you." I give Sarunas can give BD sufficient rest as long as Sarunas plays PG not Monta.
  3. on Monta, its hard to tell a scorer to become a passer - it just doesn't work. Except in superstars, i.e., AI, LeBron, but even these guys have high turn-over rates. I just don't think we can afford the risks just yet.
  4. Trusting Nellie: Obviously, a lot of owners do as he has coached for years, but I think he over thinking now. Just find 5 guys and let them play for a while. Again 23 different starting lineups so far this year; Saturday will be yet another.
Go Warriors!!

by cfrazie88 on Jan 25, 2007 12:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

your stats clearly show...
That Adonal should be a clear-cut starter! w00t!!!!
Anyways, my input...

1) I agree, to an extent. One thing I like about Nellie and the starting lineups is that he rewards the players playing well.  With Montgomery, Dunleavy and Murphy would have started everygame prior to the trade; Nelson proved that that was not a smart idea.  So I like how he doesn't have a set starting lineup, which allows for other players to play better, butI do think he juggles them around too much.  However, this trade helps in that department.  BD is obviously the starting PG, Andris the starting C.  There's really no-one else who is a real PF, so Harrington should get the bulk of starts in that department. I think SJax has proven that he is better for the starting SF role than Pietrus or Barnes.  That leaves the SG position, which tends to bounce between Sarunas, Monta, MP2, and SJax (with Barnes moving to SF)...hopefully, JRich will return his old-self, and we can have a solidified starting lineup of:
PG - Baron Davis
SG - Jason Richardson
SF - Stephen Jackson
PF - Al Harrington
C - Andris Biedrins

That's a pretty solid lineup on paper, which doesn't take into account the fact that Boom Daddy has chemistry with JRich and Andris, and friendship with SJax and Michaelangelo, which will most certainly result in chemistry.

2) I too agree that Baron takes too many jumpers.  As one commentater stated early in the season, he has the ability to be one of the best point guards in the league when his shot selection is good.  I agree that when Baron has good shot selection (not settling for jumpers, taking it to the whole and finishing, dishing otherwise), he is second only to Steve Nash for best PG in the NBA (I'm not counting Arenas as a PG...).  
However, you can't deny he's improved vastly (just look at the 3 point attempts compared to last year), and I think having 2 more solid offensive contributers will add to that.  You can't deny his heart, will, and work ethic though, and that's important.

3) I agree...somewhat.  I think Monta can be a very good point guard in this system...but I don't think he can be THE point guard. He works well as a backup, and as PG in a 2 PG backcourt, as he and Baron often do....The thing about Monta is he's fast, has good moves, an excellent finisher, and a decent passer...he works fantastically in Nelly's style of offense because he can be a wing man, and recieve the ball on the fast break, or he can be the ball carrier.  He makes good passes in transition, and even better finishes, whether he's recieving a pass, or taking it all the way.
He works well as a PG in that respect, but I agree, I don't think he'll ever be a fantastic starting PG...he's just not meant to be the PG in a half-court offense....the majority of his turnovers come that way...

4) Mickael...He has the same problem I do on the court...he makes a bad decision or a bad play, and it gets to him for the rest of the game. That just can't happen. He's solid offensively, a very good finisher, and a great defender...if he can shape up his mental game, he could be a serious ball player. I think the Warriors should possible look into something therapeutic, such as Phil Jackson does....zen, or some of those guys who come in and work on mental strength.

whew! sorry for that extremely long post! Anyway, great diary, cfrazie88, some excellent points.  I love the entertainment and humor on GSoM, but it's great to get some real conversations in.  I feel like I should be sitting around a table with a beer, and some chips and salsa talking sports with the guys! Guess I'll have to wait until college for that one....:)

by bradyk2 on Jan 25, 2007 12:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Man,
I love me some Al Harringturtle!

If you take a look out of your windows, you can now see Dallas, TX. Quite the site, no?

by coma on Jan 25, 2007 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

nailing it on the head
yeah, great posts guys. i look at this site everyday but rarely have to time to respond to anything. really nice analysis here. i wish i could see games like i used to. i only get what i can by listening to the 2nd half of home games on knbr when i wake up in the morning (time difference thing, 9 hrs +/- Madrid-Oakland) anyway between the radio, highlights on nba.com, stat sheets and your posts, i've got my own little warriors fantasy land going on in my head.

i wouldn't be worried about fixing a starting line-up just yet, i think they've still got time to do that. what's more important is that they all believe in what they can each contribute to the team. those that can really contribute will get to play. the new guys need time to incorporate themselves, nellie needs time to size them up and find out how to bring out the best in them. they all need to become believers. the good news is that it sounds like they are starting to do just that.

once jrich is back i would eventually expect to see a lineup/rotation more or less like this:

Baron          Sarunas/Monta
JRich/Jax      Monta
Jax/JRich      Pietrus/Barnes
Harrington     Barnes/Pietrus
Biedrins       Harrington/Foyle

the players in the first column ('the starters') get more or less 70% of the playing time, which works out to be roughly 33.6 mins/game. those in the second column play or split the remaing 30% which works out to be around 14.4 minutes. several points need to be made about these calculations:

  1. without doubt the 6th man will be Monta. and since he is better off playing as a sg or at least alongside Baron, he should get the bulk of his time there backing up JRich/Jax.
  2. the above, of course, implies that both JRich and SJax can sub and slide between the 2 and the 3 making room for more monta at the 2.
  3. crunch time minutes would basically come down to matchup issues and whoever has had the hottest hand that night. actually i would often expect to see all three of the JRich-Jax-Monta combo in the game in the final 2 mins with Al playing the 5 and subbing in Biedrins for defensive purposes when needed.
  4. the odd guys out will be MP and Barnes. if i had to choose between the two (and the warriors will have to just that, at least at the end of the season) i would probably go with Barnes, mainly because he's a bit more under control and a bit better at the small ball 4 than Pietrus. also pietrus probably has a bit more trade value than Barnes or at least his rather larger contract would neccesitate taking back more in return.
  5. essentially the warriors are missing a tough/defensive 4/5 to back up both Al & Andris. neither MP nor Barnes will accomplish that so the big question is if whether some sort of combination of Barnes/Pietrus/Powell behind Harrington and Foyle/Powell behind Biedrins will suffice. i doubt it. still there's over a month before the trade deadline.
anyway to get down to it when all is said and done, and the warriors have squeaked into the playoffs to take on either PHX or Dallas in the first round, i think we would ideally see PT/rotation (barring no injuries or trades) more or less like this:

Baron   33.6 mins
JRich   33.6 mins
SJax    33.6 mins
Al      33.6 mins
Andris  33.6 mins (ideally no foul trouble!)
Monta   33.6 mins
Barnes  13.8 mins
Pietrus 13.8 mins
Sarunas 10.8 mins

of course i would expect Andris to average a little bit less (like around his season average 29 mins) which would probably mean more smallball Al Harrington at the 5 stuff. that would also up Barnes or Pietrus's minutes at the 4. also Baron will probably play more than 34 mins a game (he's playing nearly 38 now) and of course that would come at the expense of Cabbage's or Monta-the-PG's minutes.

all in all, even thought this team is starting to look pretty good, with growing chemistry and exciting and fun style of play, they will not go very far until the begin to believe in each other (and play better defense as a rather large footnote). last nights final play was a good example of how the warriors can and should play: a pesky rebound by our greatest of warriors, Baron, who tenatiously pushes the ball up court and with split second timing finds the best of several possible options, sending it to a wide open Monta for what was in the end a rather simple bucket.

sweet!

keep those great posts coming!

me

by miguelito on Jan 25, 2007 2:38 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

UH OH!
Look at that last part right there. Yes., I'll highlight it for you.

ADONAL IS 2-1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ONLY OTHER PLAYER TO BE IN THE WINNING COLUMN IS JRICH!

YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS!

Foyle Victory Dance

by Zorgon on Jan 25, 2007 4:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

uh, Z . . .
Barnes has a winning record too!

by cfrazie88 on Jan 25, 2007 6:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting . . .
I am quite suprised to see so many being comfortable with all these starting line-ups. Yet, I bet some of you know several other teams' starting line-up in your heads; especially the good teams. Good teams have a set starting 5!

Yes, I know we have new players, but we need to get the 5 ASAP to become a 'good' team.

good = western playoff

Go Warriors!

by cfrazie88 on Jan 25, 2007 6:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good Teams and their Different Starting 5's
8 Lakers
7 Dallas
7 Houston
6 Suns
6 Spurs
5 Utah

As you can see not a single one of teams have double digit starting lineup changes even though they had injuries as well. Yet we have had 23. Something ain't right.

Go Warriors

by cfrazie88 on Jan 25, 2007 7:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather...
Focus on finishing in the 4th quarter than on starting the 1st with the same people. But I see your point.

by bradyk2 on Jan 25, 2007 7:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Still rebounding
Nelli loves playing the 3-2 zone, but the Warriors continue to struggle rebounding out of the zone. It's quite frustrating.

by ohad on Jan 25, 2007 8:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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