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FASHION FRIDAYS: Counterfeit shoes -- worry over nothing?

Economics 101 claims that the law of supply and demand dictate market relations.  According to this logic, the price becomes the equilibrium point; it functions to equalize the quantity demanded by consumers and the quantity supplied by producer.  It suggests a harmonious agreement between producer and consumer, a delicate balance, indexing both the willingness and desire of the consumer for the product and how much the producer will produce to continuously make a profit.

But the shoe industry or rather the Nike Empire doesn’t follow this simple abstraction of capitalism.  In the world of limited and special editions colorways and collaborations, the demand for shoes means the prices reach astronomical heights, sometimes 5 to 20 times its original price -- on the box at least.  The purposely driven up price defies the logics of the capitalist contract of exchange (see BAPE for more), which make the equilibrium point a mythology to how capitalism truly works.  

At any rate, as many on here already know of and may have already participated in, there is a subcultural shoe industry to the subcultural shoe industry.  And what I mean is, the lovechild of major corporations and subcultural capital in the form of the illicit world of Fakes and knockoffs.  In the recent issue of Complex: The Ultimate Buyer’s Guide for Men, there is an article titled "Fakin’ the Funk," which Adam Matthews uncovers the multimillion dollar industry of knock-off shoes (namely Nike), how tourist drive the demand for fake Nikes and the illicit economies/factories in China (see Ebay stores and other online sites that sell "copies" or "variations"), and the question over intellectual property.  

Though I won’t use this space to recount the details of the interesting article ($4.99 at your local Border’s bookstore), what I did find a little surprising was when Matthews notes Nike’s statement in regards to the stakes of the knock-off/counterfeiting industry in China:

Nike does not disclose the amount of losses it suffers from counterfeiting or how much it spends to combat counterfeiting.  Nike has a vast network combating counterfeiting and trademark infringement.


JORDAN3-018.jpg
Does Nike really care if these ugly things are circulating? You think Nike has to worry about people thinking these are real?

Nike doesn’t disclose the amount of losses it suffers from counterfeiting because it probably doesn’t lose anything!  The whole industry of counterfeit, for Nike shoes at least, is based on the lack of accessibility, which is less an issue of price than an issue of actual availability.  Nike can’t lose money it isn’t making if the shoes don’t exist in circulation, am I right?  

For the most part, kids and shoe fanatics aren’t opting to by fakes like people buy fake watches, Prada, Gucci, and Louie Vuitton gear where it’s a matter of price and where the pattern or symbol is enough to perform a certain status level beyond one’s means.  If you check ebay, most everyone selling knock off shoes offers the guarantee that their shoes are a hundred percent authentic and sometimes the additional tag: one hundred percent variations, which seems to be an indication that consumers are searching for the real deal, not that they’re deliberately searching for fakes.

Further, what does Nike have to lose with trademark infringement in the case of the knock off shoes?  Nike probably doesn’t have numbers to provide because, it’s my guess, that bootlegging is practically another form of advertisement or that bootlegging probably HELPS their brand.  The whole desire for fakes is based around the demand and desire for Nikes, Nikes that no longer exist and cannot be purchased.  

The question of intellectual property, I feel, doesn’t apply in this case because it assumes that people are ripping Nike off.  It’s not as if you see people making fakes of generic 40 dollar Nikes sold at JC Pennys, Sears, or Mervyns, which is what you see in the case of Louie Vuitton et al. where everything and anything has their patented, trademark pattern on it.  My guess, and you don’t have to agree with me, is that the intellectual property card is based on the idea that someone is profiting off someone else’s idea and isn’t paying dues.  But in the case of Nike shoes, the circulation of fake Jordans, fake Dunks, or fake Air Max 95s in rare colorways is really consumers enacting and performing their brand loyalty, who wait patiently to purchase the authentic shoes, scouring the internet for that right size and that right price.  

To dispel rumors that the Chinese are just a bunch of people who can’t follow industry rules, Matthews mentions that "no one in Hong Kong would wear fakes."  This isn’t to say people in other parts of China don’t wear them, but rather to emphasize bootlegging is largely a product of "the west" demands for fakes.  So, is the global bootlegging industry to blame for the circulation of fake shoes?  What is really being "compromised" in the bootlegging shoe industry?  Are Nikes really devalued as a result or is their brand even more inflated than it already is?  In this case, isn’t "imitation" really "the sincerest form of flattery"?

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Very thoughtful and thought-provoking entry...
...and part of the reason I love GSoM.

In other words, you're a capitalism-hating, pinko commie. Go back to Russia. ;)

by sarchasmic on Oct 19, 2007 10:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Intellectual Property
Well, I think intellectual property is an issue if you look at it from a trademarks/trade dress perspective. (Patents, I think, are inapplicable here because one would only be able to secure a design patent, if that, and even that would take too long to get for something in the fashion industry).

Trademark law centers around a "likelihood of confusion" standard, i.e. the purpose of trademarks is to lessen consumer confusion. However, if you also think of trademarks, and in this case, trade dress, as a property right, i.e. Nike's exclusive right to use its name/style on its shoes, then it changes things. You say that Nike isn't harmed because these fakes aren't "copies" of actual Nike shoes in the same way other counterfeit products are, but I think they are being harmed in at least 3 ways.

First, if Nike has an exclusive right to use its name, style, etc. on its products, then it has a right to squeeze out all value from the use of its trademarks/trade dress. If that is the case, then the value created from the sales of these fakes is being denied to Nike, since I doubt they are seeing even $1 of it.

Second, once someone has actually bought these fakes (knowing they were fakes or not), if people looking at them on people's feet think they are made by Nike, then their perception of Nike's products has been effected. In this case, negatively, either because of the poor quality of them or because they are aesthetically unappealing (read: fugly). Consumers will think that Nike either makes poor quality products, or ugly products, which is detrimental to their image.

Third, even if people's confusion is cleared up before buying these fakes, their attention has still been diverted. This hurts Nike because consumers, or potential consumers, have been alerted to their "competition". While people may not buy these particular "fugazis", they are made aware that companies other than Nike make "Nike-like" products, and perhaps in the future they will buy other fakes that are more to their liking.

Again, just my $.02 based on my limited knowledge of trademark law.

by kyoung05 on Oct 19, 2007 11:12 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

good points to mull over
i def. don't know much about trademark infringement so whatever folks have to offer to discourse is helpful.  

i agree that people are using the Nike brand as a means to make profit at the expense of Nike, but i guess i don't necessarily see it as a "loss" for Nike if their plans aren't to fill the demand for shoes in the first place.  if Nike continually made Jordan retros, i have a hunch that most folks would just go for the real thing instead of paying 3/4th the amount (or less) for ugly ole fakes.  To me, it seems like Nike doesn't necessarily lose money because it doesn't pump money into advertising its classic kicks or really spend any money remaking them anyway.  and when they do, people are still rushin, lining up for them in the first place...not for fakes (which would be kinda funny..)  if these were fakes of recent shoes like Lebrons and such or the air max 180s, I could see it as Nike demanding they get their cut in some way shape or form.  

hmm, it's a complicated issue tho and i'm probably just mad cuz i haven't been able to get some jordan IIIs or IVs for years!

by dj fuzzylogic on Oct 19, 2007 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post,...
Very informative.  Although I'm not quite sold on pts 2 & 3.

I don't think at this point in time that seeing an ugly pair of kicks is going to change anybody's perception of Nike.  They are so engrained in our pop culture that everyone knows that with the variety nike offers, some shoes won't pass the litmus test with some people.  I sincerely doubt anyone is gonna boycot nikes cus the jamaica patterned AF1's they saw gave them the willies.

Also, most people who choose to buy $75 fake jordans - usually can't afford to spend $215 for the real version.  Those cats would have been scared off by big the price tag and would otherwise have opted to buy the $75 real addidas.  If U could afford real J's, you'd buy real J's.  Nike would'nt lose money.  Addidas would.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Oct 19, 2007 11:41 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Damn Sarchasmic!
You sound like Michael Savage or something.  I'm sure you're just kidding.  Pinko commie-lol.  Is that like a Red Diaper Doper Baby?

Anyway, I don't feel sorry for Nike.  Their mark up on their shoe price vs. overhead is INSANE!!!  They pay 3rd world wages for their employees($0.10-$0.50 a day) and have "camps" that they provide to their laborers as part of their pay that are like shanty towns with little water supply, tiny living conditions and very little shelter from the elements(60 minutes expose 2005).  Nike isn't too far off from a lot of other clothing companies in the world.  They outsource their labor because they are greedy and want to make more profit and when I say profit I mean PROFIT.  They'd have to charge $300 a shoe to make their profit margin if "Jonny and Susie" made shoes for them here in the states.  I admire their spirit in providing great shoes, but when you look beyond their marketing with faces like Tiger and LeBron all happy and smiling, there are thousands of employees eating 4 ounces of rice with a 1 ounce piece of chicken for dinner every night wondering if their tooth ache with be dealt with all so that people can wear "hip" shoes.  

Nike isn't losing sleep over the fact that kids are wearing knock-off shoes.  Bleached white leather with neon colors and graffiti styled font on their shoes aren't taking dollars out of their pockets.  It's a non issue.  They make bank as it is and the issue of knock-off's is a pimple in the grand scheme of things.  Think of it as free outsourced advertising.  It is a form of flattery.  Nike's policy on production vs. what they pay their manufacturers, now that is something to think about...

by gabezgsw on Oct 19, 2007 11:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That depends...
on whether you want to look at infringement on a case by case basis each and every time. I mean, sure, maybe in the grander scheme of things Nike isn't being hurt all too much, but the same cannot be said of some small mom-and-pop company whose products are also being infringed. Do you propose we determine liability by the size/profits of a given company? Or, would it make more sense to enact a general principle/standard to judge all cases by?

I think what we are dealing with here is at the juncture of ethics/morality and business/economics, as are many things these days. Sure, we can harp on Nike all day about how they are only paying their laborers pennies a day, but like you said, if things were made in the U.S. at what we consider to be a "fair wage", almost no one would buy their products. Who would pay $300 for a pair of basketball shoes, aside from an exclusive few? Also, should the U.S., who is at the technological frontier devote its labor to making shoes or further advancing that frontier? Why not have a country whose current state of advancement only allows them to make, say...shoes and clothes make them, while we focus our labor on  something like nanotechnology?

Additionally, you can say that those people in 3rd world countries are only being paid a fraction of what Nike may charge for its finished goods in the U.S., but, what if, comparatively speaking, those wages were on par with whatever else labor was available in their country? Would you rather those people starve or resort to prostitution/being drug mules/etc. than work in "sweat shops"? I don't have an answer - just throwing out ideas for discussion.

by kyoung05 on Oct 19, 2007 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting, except...
...I don't know about you, but I don't buy my sneakers from my local "mom and pop" shoe store.

Could be I'm just not ethically conscious enough to support my local shoe stores.

Or it could be that larger corporations stomped those into the ground decades ago.

by sarchasmic on Oct 19, 2007 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exclusivity
Well, I think that if Nike chooses to only make a limited number of certain shoes, then it is completely within their discretion to do so. For instance, look at SB Dunks. They are made in limited quantities, probably because Nike wants them to be, well, limited. By bringing back something like a Jordan III years after Nike has stopped making them is harmful to Nike because it erodes the exclusive image that Nike wanted to give to particular shoes in the first place.

If Nike wants people to line up for new Dunks on release day because people know that if they don't get their sizes the first day they probably won't get them at all, then that is their decision to make. If people can just get the fakes in unlimited quantities indefinitely thereafter, then Nike loses some of the "hype" - which undoubtedly has SOME value to Nike.

Nike wants to create a "either get these shoes now or you'll miss out"type of phenomenon, then I think that it is their right, as the owner of that trademark/trade dress to do so. While we cannot quantify their actual loss with any degree of accuracy, that doesn't mean that we can claim they aren't being harmed at all.

I believe that Nike occasionally does re-release retro kicks, i.e. Jordans, whose sales would be hurt if people were able to get knock-offs before that actually happens.

by kyoung05 on Oct 19, 2007 11:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

But your forgetting about the nature
Of their target market.  People that spend $300 for a pair of real limited edition nikes wouldn't buy the fakes.  EVER.  Nike targets those "connoisseurs" of sneakers.  To them the value of those limited kicks, wouldn't diminish it's value one bit.

I know this because because I happen to be of that Target Market.  You'd lose sooooo much respect if you had a pair a knock offs.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Oct 19, 2007 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are right
in that people who would spend $300 on a pair of sneakers wouldn't be caught dead wearing fakes. However, what if, the knock-offs were so good that 99% of people couldn't tell them apart from the real ones. Then, instead of say 5% of the population wearing these exclusive sneakers, 20% of the people could wear similar-looking/damn-near-identical sneakers, and the general public thought that you guys were all wearing the same shoes. Would you still want them? Do you think that all the people who were willing to pay $300 would still want them? I'll bet, that the reason you are willing to pay $300 for shoes is because you place SOME value, maybe even subconsciously, on their exclusivity. If that is the case then, Nike, or LV, or whomever, has been harmed.

by kyoung05 on Oct 19, 2007 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't speak for everyone
So my opinion on the subject shouldn't be taken as a RULE of thumb for those of us with 10 or more pair of authentic retro jordans.  I guess to me, the FACT that I have REAL J's despite the HUGE influx of high quality variants adds its own sense of status.  And being able to spot them makes me feel like the sort of a diamond appraiser, accept with shoes.  Being able to tell the difference becomes an appreciated skill in itself.  Hell, some of my friends who aren't as deep into it ask for my help in that regard all the time.
THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Oct 19, 2007 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

By that rationale, the Rolex brand...
...must be damn near worthless by now, with all the knockoffs made of their products over the years. :)

by sarchasmic on Oct 19, 2007 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never
said that over time the brand would become worthless because of fakes, but think about someone that wears a fake Rolex that is badly tarnished because it's made of lower quality materials. When someone sees that Rolex on someone's wrist, they might think "Wow...Rolex's quality is sure going downhill" or something to that effect. That degradation in perception translates to a decrease in Rolex's value. Rolex won't necessarily go out of business, but, they will be hurt. How much? Who knows....

by kyoung05 on Oct 19, 2007 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a nice theory...
...but I'm not seeing any facts or research to go behind it, simply speculation. This is from the first paragraph in wiki:

"Rolex SA is a Swiss manufacturer of mostly mechanical wristwatches and accessories renowned for their dependability, prestige, and cost (from a few thousand to more than one hundred thousand U.S. dollars). Rolex watches are considered status symbols by many. Rolex is the largest single luxury watch brand by far, with estimated revenues of around US$ 3 billion (2003).[1]. BusinessWeek magazine ranks Rolex #71 on its 2007 annual list of the 100 most important global brands, top among all watchmakers.[2]"

Just think, if there weren't so many Rolex knockoffs, Rolex might be...the largest single luxury watch brand in the world!

Oh wait, it's already that.

by sarchasmic on Oct 20, 2007 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its funny
When I read that Tim N Chris would pay $300 for a pair of limited edition Nike's and would lose respect for someone for wearing a pair of knock-offs, I started to laugh and think how shallow that is.  But I can understand that people really have a passion for certain things and will spend money on them when someone else would never do so.  I spend $100 on bottles of wine, but Tim N Chris probably thinks that's just as absurd as me thinking it's crazy to buy $300 shoes.  Its all relative, so go for it Tim N Chris!

Kyoung05, I hear what you are saying about relative pay in 3rd world countries.  You're right that its better off they work for Nike as opposed to dealing drugs or prostitution.  Yes, their pay is on par with other laborers in their respective countries, but I would love to see how different the US would be in regards to clothing if it were made here.  I think priorities would be a little different like what am I going to spend my money on-a pair of $300 kicks or food for myself and/or my family?  Man, heavy stuff.  Enough of that, I can't wait for the season to start so I can pay $8.00 for a 12 oz. beer and $7.50 for a mass produced beef bi-product delectable called a hot dog.  Greedy Mo Fo's, I guess they have to get that money somewhere to pay for guys salaries like JRich and Foyle!!!

by gabezgsw on Oct 19, 2007 12:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't get me wrong,
I'm not so shallow of a person to knock a man for his preference in footwear.  I feel everyone has their "thing" that there into, and shoes happen to be mine.  My comment was - if you're gonna be part of that niche or gain status in that niche (as in authentic throwback sneakers) then don't try to be fake about it.

If someone was to pass off $3 wine as $100 gormet stuff, I'm sure you wouldn't wanna go wine tasting with that person.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Oct 19, 2007 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Point
You're right about the passing off a $3 wine for $100.  I'd probably try and educate them as to why its 2 buck chuck and not Turley.  Thats cool your into shoes and would pay $300 for a "limited production" shoe.  I understand that point.  My point is that if Nike shoes that normally cost $90 that were made in Vietnam cost $300 if they were made in the states, would you still buy them?

I think if Nike made their shoes in the US, they would know how GREEDY they looked and wouldn't charge the $300 for them in order to keep their profit margin the same.  In a nut shell it just demonstrates how f'ing greedy a world we live in.  

by gabezgsw on Oct 19, 2007 1:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Out of curiosity...
...would the reason that wine sell for $100 be for similar reasons why Nike charges so much for their shoes?

Or is the amount of work and cost of goods for those wines simply that much more expensive than it is to make some two buck (three in the Midwest) Chuck?

by sarchasmic on Oct 19, 2007 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You nailed it...
Two Buck Chuck Cabernet:  $300 a ton for grapes

Paul Hobbs "Beckstoffer To Kolon" Cabernet:  $20,000 a ton for grapes.

Just the cost of grapes alone is the reason for variance in prices for wine.

Another is price you pay for your land.  Two Buck Chuck is from ranches in Bakersfield and Fresno where an acre costs you $10,000.

Average Napa Valley price per acre is $100,000.

That's it in a nut shell...

by gabezgsw on Oct 19, 2007 1:48 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Good to know...
and thanks for the reply. I'm going to have to ask you for recommendations next time I need a good wine.

by sarchasmic on Oct 19, 2007 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

quality
i dont like buying fakes but if you take a closer look at some of these fakes, the quality is almost the same, heck, how much technology or equipment would it take to make an air force 1? thing's just made of leather, rubber and canvas..even more so with chucks and superstars..the thing is, most of the factories that actually make the real thing are also the one's who make the fakes, out of rejected material or some stuff that has a defect or something..only prob is, sometimes the fancier shoes like them ones with airsoles and high-tech foot stuff are usually the worse knock-offs simply coz its not that easy to imitate a design like that..people here in our turf like to buy fakes first, sort of like testing the waters or something, then when they get fond of the shoe or the jacket, they buy the real deal..another prob with fakes is that they break down easily..haha..i  remember reading somewhere that soulja boy used to rock fake bapes all the time..but when he got famous he went crazy and bought a whole bunch of the real stuff..
Warriors Fan Representing the P.I.

by thetruth22 on Oct 19, 2007 2:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I know
I'm not about to pay 500 bucks for some heineken edition dunks. clean as hell - yes. worth 500 bucks - no. fakes all day

by thatrabbi on Oct 19, 2007 2:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Example
Let's take example to illustrate my point. If we think of intellectual property like any other property, then I think it will become more clear.

Let's say you own a car - it's yours, paid in full. Now, let's say that when you're not using the car, someone steals it to go joy riding, uses it as a place to nap, goes to the drive-thru, etc. Now, when they are done with it, they clean it up, fills up the gas, and put it back before you need to use it again. In terms of VALUE, aside from a few more miles on the odometer, the value of your car is the same as it was. No appreciable difference, right? I mean, there is no "damage" done to your car, there isn't any less gas in the tank, and the thief only used it while you weren't going to anyways, right?

Now, I don't know about you guys, but whether I was going to use my car during that time or not, I  sure as hell wouldn't want someone stealing it to go for a spin. It isn't even about the difference in value pre-steal vs. value post-steal.

It's much more visceral than that. It is YOUR property. You worked for it, you paid for it, and it's yours. One of the fundamental rights as a property owner, perhaps THE MOST important right, is to be able to use what's yours when, where, and however you feel like it. Whether you leave it parked in your garage for a month collecting just or take it to the local racetrack, no one can tell you what to do with your stuff. Conversely, you have the absolute right to tell others to NOT use/take/borrow your stuff - the right to exclude.

This is the same with trademarks. Nike designed its swoosh, designed its Jordons/Dunks/AF1/etc. and built its business from the ground up centered around public perception of the brand and those customers' good will. No one has a right to "use" Nike's property without their permission, regardless of whether you can quantify any loss in profits or not.

by kyoung05 on Oct 19, 2007 3:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't argue with you about the ethics
of the whole counterfeit nike thing.  Counterfeiting = stealing
Stealing = wrong

But I think its financial damage to nike is negligible.  Nike execs aren't starvin' over it.  Perhaps that's the reason they're not going all "RAA" about it.  Like I said earlier - those buying the $75 knock off jordan III's were'nt gonna buy the real ones anyway & and I doubt those that would buy the "real" III's are less inclined to get 'em because variants exist.

In an ideal world being right is all that should matter; unfortunately, the real world is far from ideal.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Oct 19, 2007 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

random question
why are some fakes SO fake looking (like the ones with the odd colors) whereas the "real" colorways look closer to the original shape?  or is that not a guaruntee? any insights?

by dj fuzzylogic on Oct 19, 2007 4:44 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

fakes
It's because the shoes that are made in the original colors are actually reproduced from a digital photo that allows the original and fake to be about 90% accurate.  With all the non released colors its basically from scratch.

But for the most part people do not know that they are buying fakes, it is really hard to tell especially when most shoe transactions are done over ebay and online.  People just can't tell if they aren't a sneakerhead and even if you are its difficult.  Because often times the sellers do not show all the pictures that will guarantee that its authentic, and some sellers believe they are authentic.  

Screw rocking fakes.

by dangdang142 on Oct 19, 2007 9:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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