All-Overated Team

by dsham001 on Oct 22, 2007 12:19 PM PDT

On detroitbadboys.com site, there is an article about the "All-Overated First and Second Team."

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2007-10-19/all-overrated-first-and-second-teams/

Considering it is a Pistons site, its not surprising to see Ben Wallace on there. There are other people on there as well, some being more surprising. Namely, The Yay's own Jason Kidd. Now I know most people would think this is wrong, since Kidd can be considered the modern day Magic, the last true point guard, etc etc but thats not why I'm posting this. Guess who made the second team all-overated?? Our very own MONTA ELLIS.

I for one semi-agree with the author that Ellis is overated. But thats not necesarily saying he's a bad player. Its just that I don't feel he is ever going to be able to reach the hype that we, as Warriors fans, and media members have created for him. Now, I love him to death, no homo. The way he plays is exciting, he makes a ton of 'wow' plays and he gets me on my feet even at home. He has the potential to be a good player, maybe borderline All-Star, but honestly I don't see more than that. He can be an All-Star in the form of a Wally Sczerbiak (sp?) or Jamal Magloire, meaning players who at the time made sense but 5 years down the line, we wonder how he made it.

As a player, I see his ceiling as high as J-Rich. I mean this by how he impacts the game. Now, J-Rich is a pretty good player, so that wouldn't be a bad thing to achieve. But there are times where it feels like his presence was hurtin the Warriors more than helping. With Monta, I feel like he doesn't have a good enough handle, or a good enough jumper to take over a game, similar to Lebron did against the Pistons. Monta is going to be a good player, but he won't be "the player" if you get what I'm saying. J-Rich was a good player, crowd pleasin etc. but his deficiencies from the line, on defense, and for the most part in the clutch seemed to doom us. I miss him, and wish he was still on the W's, so I'm not just hating. But I see the same thing with Monta, his deficiencies coming back to hurt us more than help us. Like J-Rich, we will struggle if he is option #1.

I don't wanna seem all negative and what not, so if I am just let me know and I'll try to explain myself better. But I'm just stating my opinion after reading this article. I'm not trynna hate, as I said before based on what I believe as the expectations that have been placed on Monta, he is overated. That doesn't necesarily mean he's a bad player though.

Any thoughts, comments, or hatred on what I said or on the article. I encourage all to read it cuz its pretty interesting.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Comments

Don't mean to sound like a hater

to the detroitbadboys, but any overated list w/o Stephon "dat's my ho" Marbury on it, gotta lessen its credability, IMO.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Oct 22, 2007 12:33 PM PDT reply actions

asdf

I never believed in alien's until I heard Starbury open his mouth, dude is from a different planet.

by J Rich 4 MVP on Oct 22, 2007 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions

In before...

Sleepy asks "Overrated by who?"

Seriously though these lists are usually entertaining but entirely useless. Not to complain I'm glad you posted it, it was a fun read.

by olympicmike on Oct 22, 2007 12:45 PM PDT reply actions

The List

Jason Kidd overrated?

Why is Daniel Gibson even on the list? He's of little significance outside of that one series where he beat Detroit. That pick killed the whole article for me. At that point it seemed like just a Detroit fan who was bitter and wanted to throw in a shot at Cleveland. Weak.

As far as Monta, I can understand that pick from a national perspective. Probably rarely ever saw him play, then he wins the MIP, and then falls apart in the playoffs. Not a good impression.

by Fantasy Junkie on Oct 22, 2007 12:45 PM PDT reply actions

Other players worthy of mention

Zach Randolph, Tony Parker, Rashard Lewis, Amare (imagine him without Nash), and Gilbert Arenas.

I completely disagree with them on Kidd. Who cares if he's not a shooter? His court vision and passing create amazingly good looks for his opponents and inflate the perceived ability of his teammates (Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Mikki Moore).

Agree to a degree on Deron. No chance in hell I'd take him over Chris Paul right now, but he is a very heady PG who manages Sloan's system at a high level for his age/experience.

I'd also consider putting Dwight Howard on there for now, as his offensive abilities are limited at best and while he is an astonishingly good rebounder, I don't see him as a top paint defender at the present time.

by dprodigy19 on Oct 22, 2007 12:49 PM PDT reply actions

Amare

was sick without Nash. In fact he won ROY. I'd take Amare on my team in a heart beat.

by Spidz34 @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 22, 2007 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions

asdf

I think any overrated list has to include Eddy Curry.

by J Rich 4 MVP on Oct 22, 2007 12:53 PM PDT reply actions

Monta?

No I don't think he's overrated. Sure he won the MIP, but that's a measure of how much improved from the previous season; which is ALOT. And sure he did get that And1 shoe campaign, but just take a look at all the other "ballers" on the And1 lineup; they're all trash. Now if he was on the All-NBA 2nd team or if he got a Nike shoe deal, then I'd say he's overrated.

by jlagace on Oct 22, 2007 12:58 PM PDT reply actions

I agree about Monta in some aspects

Monta is still young, he is still very raw... from what he does from this point on will determine if he's overrated or not. His jumper is fine, but he has yet to show any consistency from beyond the arc.

He can either become another young athletic player who decides to try to ride out his athleticism until he gets injured, old or both... or he can work on his game and fine tune it. Basically he'll decide if he wants to become another Pietrus for the Warriors... does he want to get better or take baby steps forwards and backwards, never going too far in either direction.

by david240z on Oct 22, 2007 12:59 PM PDT reply actions

WTF

Jason Kidd isn't the defender he used to be, but he's still a top 5 point guard by anyone's measure. He deserves all the props he gets, even today.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 22, 2007 1:11 PM PDT reply actions

Oh, what about Chris Webber

I remember last year how aquiring C WEB was seen as coup whenever the pistons were on national TV, which was a lot more often than the dubs. Well, I wasn't impressed.

D-town's representation in that list is supiciously absent... LOL

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Oct 22, 2007 1:20 PM PDT reply actions

Tru date

C webb has to be the all time overated person I think of...

aka WhorRIORS. hallelujaha hollaback.

by WingStop Warrior on Oct 22, 2007 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions

"dat" oops...

aka WhorRIORS. hallelujaha hollaback.

by WingStop Warrior on Oct 22, 2007 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions

How About Sebastian Telfair...

...although he was probably more "overhyped" than "overrated."

And there is no way that Deron Williams belongs on this list. I think he may be the best young point guard in the game. Yes, I even like him more than Chris Paul. As Dubs fans, we all saw him at his best and can probably agree that he is special.

by UweBlab on Oct 22, 2007 2:35 PM PDT reply actions

im sorry

but not only is this dudes comments stupid, but the fact that you agreed even somewhat with his ideas on monta ellis is even worse.

I dont feel like typing right now, but i feel like you could prolly write a book counter arguing his claims.

In short, how can a player drafted 47th overall (i know it was 40 something but im not sure, either way he was drafted in the 2nd round) be overrated? I mean really, he only became one of the top 5 players in his draft, arguably top 2, and he only won most improved player of the year. If you average 17 pts a game, no matter what team you play for, and you were drafted that late, then you are one of the most UNDERRATED individuals in the nba. Thats ridiculous. He may be an overrated point guard or something if you want to argue that he was listed as a pg in the draft or something, but as a basketball player in general. wow...
the fact that he has such great expectations now is beside the point. Sure, we might think he'll be a star someday, but if he isnt NO BIG DEAL, WE DRAFTED HIM IN THE 2nd round!!! obviously we werent expecting a star. we were expecting a player who could contribute years down the line. He has already done that, and more

by NinerWarrior on Oct 22, 2007 3:22 PM PDT reply actions

100%

agreed way to speak the truth

by Proof on Oct 22, 2007 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions

i think they're argument is

that Monta doesn't deserve MIP and isn't the star-in-the-making that some warriors fans and And1 think he is... Monta's draft positon two years ago has very little to do with what fans, sportswriters, and GMs think of him today (

except maybe that last one because they're all bitter they passed on him at least once

by BingBluNT on Oct 22, 2007 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions

Having said that

this really is a horrible list. Deron and Monta are rising stars who may be slightly over-hyped but they're success in only 2 years of NBA experience is very impressive.

Kidd, Wallace, and Redd don't deserve to be on that list.

by BingBluNT on Oct 22, 2007 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions

uh

"I for one semi-agree with the author that Ellis is overated. But thats not necesarily saying he's a bad player. Its just that I don't feel he is ever going to be able to reach the hype that we, as Warriors fans, and media members have created for him."

thats kinda what they were saying

by Proof on Oct 22, 2007 3:29 PM PDT reply actions

there is no way

that a kid this young and this talented and a 2nd rounder at that should ever be on this list. first of all, they don't know what monta's career will be like. i mean yea we can all sit here and say that jermaine oneal is overrated and all, but monta is going into his third year straight outta high school and scored like 17 pts per game or something and was very explosive and a dinamic scorer. he is one of the quickest dudes in the league with hella hops and hella finishing ability.

by Proof on Oct 22, 2007 3:32 PM PDT reply actions

problem

The problem is that ratings change. At the time of the draft Ellis was probably underrated- thats why he fell to us. If people "Rated" him properly he'd be a first rounder somewhere.

Yet he's not a pick anymore, he's entering his 3rd year. I don't know what the perception of him is around the league, but the MIP was nice...though debatable. Martin and Deron had some decent improvements, so did our very own Biedrins. No big deal, but I think there are alot better candidates than Ellis.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 22, 2007 4:15 PM PDT reply actions

I wanna know

how K-Mart managed to escape that list

by FoyledAgain on Oct 22, 2007 4:19 PM PDT reply actions

if anyone

is overrated its Andrei Kirilenko. He's an all world talent but can't stay on the floor. He's a plus defender but has a streaky shot. Take AK out of Utah with their current club and i still think they'd end up with the same record.

Monta being overrated, depends. I think his potential is limited by his playmaking skills and handles. You cannot compare him to Jrich. they are two different players.

I think Monta will compare mostly to Leandro Barbosa than a Tony Parker or Ben Gordon.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Oct 22, 2007 4:23 PM PDT reply actions

oh man

Here we go again.

Kirilenko is not a plus defender...he is a plus plus PLUS defender.

Remove him from the Jazz and the gap between top 3 teams in the West and "the rest" widens considerably.

Check the rest of the Jazz front line:

Carlos Boozer and Mehmet Okur

Do they scare anyone defensively? Nope, nada.

Boozer himself is injury prone, having missed considerable time the previous 2 years prior to last year. He is a beast of a rebounder and highly, HIGHLY effective low-post scorer, but he blocks fewer than 1 shot per game and no one would accuse him of being a deadly pick and roll defender.

Okur is essentially Troy Murphy with better percentages. He's slow footed and soft, and he does not block shots either. He has nice hands (1.1 stls per 40 is good for a center), but that's it.

Without AK47, who would defend perimeter players? Gordon Giricek? Matt Harpring? Derek Fisher? Morris Almond (lol)? Maybe Ronnie Brewer will step up, but at this point he hasn't proven anything.

Kirilenko, like Marion, serves a vital role by "fitting" defensively. He covers for the weaknesses of his teammates by being everywhere getting steals and being an undersized shotblocker.

And let's not shaft him on offense: he's an excellent finisher and passer, and handles the ball like a small forward, even running the point against us effectively. Because Okur is a perimeter shooter, his lack of 3P range does not hurt the Jazz as much as people think, because he moves very well and distributes.

A "traditional" small forward, like say Richard Jefferson, might make their offense even better, but their defense would suffer tremendously.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 22, 2007 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions

AK's 1 girl per year

must have been OZ this year. Bro, you sweat him soooooo hard.

by thatrabbi on Oct 22, 2007 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Because

I'm right =P

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 22, 2007 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions

AK-47 BEAT us in the playoffs

AK played like Don Nelson's perfect player and was able to do all the defensive things Nellie would've loved and still brought the versatility and mismatches that could compensate for the weaknesses of Sloan-ball against our system. I don't care how good Boozer and Williams are because without many of the intangibles and mismatches that AK brought, then the Utah Jazz would be the Houston Rockets "Lite".

And we'd kill them.

Most of us were hoping for Houston because Yao is too slow to run with us and T-Mac can't beat us by himself. And I'd take those two HEALTHY over Boozer and Deron any day.

by sadleavy on Oct 22, 2007 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions

LOL

by chimp on Oct 22, 2007 4:27 PM PDT reply actions

Monta is not Overrated

He had a great breakout season last year and let's just hope he keeps working hard. The only problem is if he rests on his laurels.

He can be special. He's got more tools than JRich because he can create off the dribble and finish. His quickness is what makes him special. Very few players in the league have that combo.

Nothing better than "The City".

by philsmith75 on Oct 22, 2007 6:28 PM PDT reply actions

ok

not taking the draft into account, who really overrates him? The author argues we the fans over rate him, but i disagree. To be honest, even when we lost one of our best players in jason richardson this offseason, i was STILL shocked to see monta in the starting line up. In fact, once stephen jackson comes back, hell probably be back on the bench with his backup PG role. How can we overrate him if we dont expect him to start? I actually prefer him off the bench as he gives a real spark to the offense. Overrated ppl are ppl with fat contracts, who start, and perform relatively low to players at their same position, age, and payroll. Call him overrated once hes getting paid 6-7 mil next year and hes not producing much. Until then...

by NinerWarrior on Oct 22, 2007 6:41 PM PDT reply actions

well

i would argue that thinking ellis = Josh Smith would be overrating his trade value, but I suppose i'm arguing semantics.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 22, 2007 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions

Oh man does Ellis not equal Josh Smith...

In trade value. I wouldn't really say that Ellis is overrated... He is definately a good player which you've broke down various times in past threads. He can definately still bloom into a good/great all-star type of player and has the talent to start on this team, let alone be a top 6th man should Kabuki get the starting nod (which I'm hoping for). His deficiencies can be definately be attributed to being young and unexperienced. You have to remember that there is a difference between not coming from a structured college system and just being thrusted into the NBA and going to college and making it into the NBA. Very few high school players have made an immediate impact but a lot have showed flashes of greatness and have blossomed into being a good-great player. Look at Kobe Bryant... he started off his career (first two) averaging 8-9ppg at about 20-25 mpg behind Eddie Jones. Then in his third season he increased his productivity with increased minutes and simply became a BEAST... No matter how much I hate the guy... he's simply the best 2-guard in the league and has been for the past five or so seasons. Jermaine O'Neal is another player that comes to mind; Al Harrington, Tracy McGrady, Rashard Lewis... even Eddy Curry & Tyson Chandler are finally coming into their own now. The hype surrounding Ellis now is similar to the hype Kobe Bryant had... minus the L.A. big stage and big time winning because of great teammates. I'm willing to wait for Ellis to bloom into a good-great player.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

by mightymadskillz on Oct 22, 2007 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions

low blow OZ

besides, i said ellis AND harrington for josh smith.

iverson was traded for andre miller, Jrich was traded for bWright, shaq was traded for odom. trades are rarely about equal value, they're about circumstance.

by jlagace on Oct 23, 2007 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions

thats even worse

Harrington's contract is a negative, so you're only diminishing Josh Smith's value even more. The Hawks let him go once already, they have a ton of forwards already, so there's no need for him at all. Go to a hawks forum and suggest the idea, go to a neutral general nba forum and suggest the idea. They will echo the sentiments JAE and I have brought up when you originally suggested the idea.

Allen Iverson is not the same situation:

he's an older veteran
Iverson was prohitively expensive, significantly more than what Josh smith would make
Joe Smith's expiring contract was a key component that offered significant salary relief, something your deal doesn't have
Andre Miller is good

Trades are about circumstance AND value- but one circumstance you've ignored or chosen to overlook is MONEY and FIT.

The money isn't appropriate and our package doesn't fit them. They believe in Acie Law and they have marvin Williams, Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, Al Horford, and Sheldon Williams, all of whom are cheaper or better than harrington.

they let Al go for a reason- they didn't want him, they didn't want to pay him. No reason they'd take him back now, no matter how hard you wish it.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 23, 2007 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions

Deron Williams is not

overrated but id still take Chris Paul over him. kid is sick. how is mike dumbleavy not on there? (oh yeah, he "knows how to play the game")

by duggie25 on Oct 22, 2007 7:06 PM PDT reply actions

Dunleavy is not over-rated.

To be "over-rated" implies that someone rates him higher than his actual value. I don't think anyone rates Dunleavy as anything better than an average NBA player, which is what he is. I'd argue that the people who make it sound like he's not fit to play in the league under-rate him. He's not terrible, he's just shockingly mediocre is so very, very many ways.

If you mean 'over-paid', that's a different issue.

by jae on Oct 22, 2007 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions

Dunleavy

was overrated earlier in his career, because he was such a high draft pick. But the bloom fell off the rose fairly soon in his case. People had pretty much universially soured on him by his third or fourth season.

by San Francisco Slim on Oct 22, 2007 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions

i think

being drafted 3rd overall in front of guys like carlos boozer or heck even drew gooden is a tad overrated

by NinerWarrior on Oct 22, 2007 8:11 PM PDT reply actions

man

We seriously need to define what overrating is.

rating when? at draft time? now? in between?

rating by who? media? warrior fans? other team fans?

rating by production or rating by contract value?

We all love Baron Davis, for example, but if you said he is the best person on earth and you want him to be ruler of the universe, you overrated him.

Austin Croshere sucks, but anyone that would rather have Pat Burke is unerrating Croshere.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 22, 2007 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions

Haha

Exactly why I dubbed this diary fun but useless. Don't get too into this discussion it will make your brain hurt. lol.

by olympicmike on Oct 22, 2007 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Overrated Players

are in the eye of the beholder. Generally, I would base players' ratings on fan and media perceptions, as much as I can decipher them. Occasionally a coach helps overrate a player by playing him too much.

Here are my top overrated players:

First team:

1. Allen Iverson
Number one all-time on my hit parade. A high volume, low percentge shooter that even Hollinger's system overates. He has played on many losing teams for a reason. A important note is that Philadelphia improved after he was traded, and Denver didn't get better.

2. Antoine Walker
This is more of a lifetime achievment award, as I'm not sure most people consider him any good anymore, except perhaps Pat Riley, who keeps playing him starter's minutes. However, Walker was overrated back when everyobdy thought he could play.

3. Adam Morrison
I realize he's injured and people generally think he was a bad #3 pick, but he made the 2nd team rookie team last season. So, considering he's the worst player in the league, he makes this list.

4. Steve Nash
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan. But two MVPs in a row over LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Shaq (when he was good), etc.? He's not THAT good. Also, Dallas didn't get any worse, in fact got better, when he left.

5. Jason Kidd
Agree with the blog's list. He's dropped off. Kidd, Carter, Jefferson, and the Nets are still only a .500 team? I think the Lakers were correct in not giving up a lot for him, because he doesn't have much left.

2nd Team

Caron Butler
He's okay, but the Wizards should be better than .500 if Jamison and him are all that good, because Arenas is one of the best players in the league.

Antwan Jamison
He's one of my favorite players, because he I feel he didn't get his due when he was a Warrior, but he still makes this list, as he gets his points by being a high volume shooter who's not much of a defensive player.

Stephon Marbury
People make fun of him for various reasons, but I don't think many realize that he's just a mediocre player at this point.

Steve Francis
He'll help the Rockets, only because the players he's replacing were so God awful. I wish the Lakers had signed him, because Kobe would go crazy watching him hog the ball.

Luke Walton
Somehow it seems that people now think he's a good player, but he's so-so at best.

Honorable Mention

Chris Webber
He's already been cut from a team, so how overrated can he be? Still, people were giving him way too much credit for helping an already good team. He's basically a potted plant on defense.

Brad Miller
He fell off the cliff last season and I'm not sure people realize that. He does a nice imitation of a speed bump on defense.

Rudy Gay
I think he will be good, but I'm not sure that he was acknowledged as being as bad as he actually was last season.

by San Francisco Slim on Oct 22, 2007 10:18 PM PDT reply actions

What about

Greg Oden? I know that he hasn't yet played in a regular season game or even a preseason game for that matter. But during the SL, he definitely didn't impress anyone. And then with all the injury problems he's having, I think he was just overrated before the draft. Will he still be the next "great" center?

The J-RICH show is on his way out...=(

by dajrichshow on Oct 22, 2007 10:56 PM PDT reply actions

OZ....

This is why i originally posted the diary, to start discussion on this subject. Im really sick and lazy right now so i dont feel like defending my comments, but if you want me to i can try.

But OZ, when i think of overrated i tend to think of it as a general perception by a combination of media members and fans alike along with production. It can be taken into context in many different ways, depending on how you want to view the player. For instance, if you think someone is going to eventually become the "next jordan" then you would be evaluating the players potential, basing it on their current attributes. That means that it would be dumb and irresponsible (for lack of a better word) to crown somebody the best three point shooter of all time, when they currently shoot 20% (purely hypothetical situation).

You can also take into account a persons entire career and judge whether they have been overated. But i don't think that contracts should play as big a factor in judging whether a player is overated or not. I also think that certain time periods of a player can be looked back on and deemed if they were overated. Like i can safely say that Dunleavy was overated by being drafted at #3, but can also say i don't feel he is overated today, because most people (fans, media) i talk/hear/read generally come up with the same consensus about him. But this is only my perception, everyone elses can be different.

Basically, i feel as if it is hard to come up with a standard definition of overating/underating players, situations and circumstances and that all opinions are independant of any norm. So, when i say that Ellis is overated, im not necesarily wrong, but im not also necesarily right. Like other posters have said that Webber is overated, i don't believe that because if you look at his career arc, from the Fab Five to the NBA, he has had a significant impact on the game (as a Fab Five member) and his teams (he was a monster that 1 yr on the W's, and amazing on the Kings). But once again these are my feelings and, of course, to each his own!

by dsham001 on Oct 23, 2007 10:05 AM PDT reply actions

yeah

That's why I try not to use those terms unless the context is very obvious (one specific person, for example, is doing the rating).

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 23, 2007 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions

Hey it's all in good fun

Discussions like this are the bread and butter of NBA forums. YOu can argue all day and never really prove whether you are "right" or "wrong".

You are absolutely right that each person has his own perception about how a player is "rated" by the league and media. For instance if all you watched was FSN you would have a different take on Jax's value than if you only watched TNT or ESPN. The landscape in the Media and throughout the league is just as diverse as this blog (maybe not quite as diverse lol).

In fact I'm sure you could find at least one person in the media or in the league who thought Monta and Al for Speedy and Josh Smith would be a good trade.

by olympicmike on Oct 23, 2007 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions