Biedrins Dilemma?

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 1:05 PM PDT

What I'm about to say may be vastly unpopular with GSOM, but all I ask you to do is hear me out with an open mind.

Boozer exploited our lack of defensive post presence once again in the season opener. The rebounding didn't bother me as much as the fact that he was unstoppable putting the ball in the hole or getting to the line. Utah has Boozer, SA has Duncan, the Suns have Amare, Rockets have Yao, Nene on the Nuggets is turning into a beast in his own right and so is Bynum on the Lakers.

Bottom line is this: We'll never make it out of the second round of the playoffs if we can't defend the low post in the West. In fact, we were lucky to matchup against Dirk and the Mavs or else I don't think we would have even made it past the first round.

So who do we usually blame? We point the finger at whoever is playing the PF position for us. Then we brainstorm who we could get to play that position for us. We go down the list of PF's, but there's too many restrictions:

they have to defend the low post well
they have to rebound well
they have to be able to get up and down the court well
they have to be able to spread the defense with range on their jumpshot, because we already have a guy on the offense who doesn't have range and we can't have TWO guys like that

But wait just a second.. Biedrins is that guy. Not only that, but he DOESN'T solve our post presence dilemma either. Don't get me wrong, he's a monster on the glass and a great weakside shotblocker. But he actually creates more dilemmas on our squad than Harrington does, and it's not like he's stopping Boozer or anything.

Mark my words: If we extend Biedrins and he becomes our everyday starting Center, under Coach Nelson, we will never get out of the first round of the playoffs. His limitations on the offensive end create too much INFLEXIBILITY at who we can start at the power forward position, which leaves Biedrins to be the best post defender we have on the floor.. but he can't defend the post.

This is all assuming Brandan Wright will take a few years to be able to step into that starting PF role (if ever), and also assuming we don't do something amazing like acquiring KG to play PF for us.

So what do we do? We put Biedrins, Monta, Pietrus together in a trade package and we try to get a big name solid athletic post defender at the trade deadline. Otherwise, I'm afraid to say, what happened in the playoffs last year and what happened at the Oracle last night will keep happening.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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i can see how you think this

but another question is, with a package of AB, Monta and MP, who do you go out for? Who is a young, athletic post defender? You won't be able to get Amare, Bynum, Howard, Aldridge, Ming, or any other low post beast. The best i can think of is Tyson Chandler, (mind you i'm thinking realistically here).

Not only is the defense bad against Utah, more glaring is that our offense is bad. Offense, not defense, is the one thing that we are much more reliant upn. we were shooting around 40% for the game. The Jazz made us take a lot of jumpers and the Dubz weren't able to knock them down. Yes, a low post threat would help us out in spreading the court, but unfortunately they are hard to come by.

What i am basically saying is with that package, there is no way the warriors would get equal value.

Al Horford would have looked good in orange last night huh'?

Maybe the key to Utah is knocking Ak-47 out early so we can open up the lanes and drive to the hole. Boozer and Okur are NOT shot blockers. Maybe we need to double Boozer on the low post and force him to be a passer.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Oct 31, 2007 1:26 PM PDT reply actions

good point

Here's a fantasy scenario I've thought up, maybe you guys can kick it around for a little bit:

GSW gets:
Jermaine O'Neal
IND gets:
Monta, Pietrus, Biedrins, Harrington, Perovic

and then...
GSW gets:
Ron Artest
SAC gets:
JRich TPE + 1st round pick

and then...
GSW gets:
Sergio Rodriguez
POR gets:
JRich TPE + 2nd round pick

our depth chart:
PG Baron / Rodriguez / THud
SG Buke / Belinelli
SF SJax / Barnes / Lasme
PF Artest / Wright / Croshere
C O'Neal / O'Bryant

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions

Jermaine O'neal

is the last person the dubs need. He'd be more ill fitting than THUD. YOU do know Jermaine O'Neal can't play uptempo, right?

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Oct 31, 2007 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Boozer was doubled

and sometimes tripled. This is part of the reason Brewer went off.

shadowboy

by shadowboy on Oct 31, 2007 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions

Had the same observation

Coach Sloan aint know fool. In the Playoffs LY we doubled with help from the 1 and 2 and gave up the perimeter. Last night we doubled from the weak side which left Brewer look like an All Star.

by Baron the Messiah on Oct 31, 2007 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions

trouble with double teaming

They set up Boozer to catch the ball in motion or very close to the basket, reducing the time you have to send the extra man.

They also move without the ball exceptionally well, a Sloan staple.

We did a horrible job contesting all those cuts.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 31, 2007 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions

It's bad enough...

when Biedrins is getting out muscled, I cannot think of many centers who are weaker in strength, maybe players like Camby but he Def Player of Year. What troubles me is that he is getting out-quicked (word?) AND out muscled. Opposing players seem to have better footwork when being guarded by AB, Boozer (any many other 4 and 5's) will prove that not only are they stronger than AB, but quicker as well. Remember quickness and "up and down the court very well" are 2 entirely different things.

The Barnes Supremacy

by The Barnes Supremacy on Oct 31, 2007 1:32 PM PDT reply actions

First game of the season is a loss.

trade everyone.

by justin on Oct 31, 2007 2:04 PM PDT reply actions

the Warriors

will make the playoffs, don't get me wrong. Our small ball lineup creates so many mismatches that we'll probably blow out alot of teams during the season. Our problem is going to be in the postseason, we won't go anywhere.

And my suggestion about pushing from another trade doesn't stem just from the first game of the new season, it comes from what's been happening to the Warriors over and over again. It's an issue that has not been addressed.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions

You didn't watch the game, did you?

Because if you had, you would have noticed that Boozer got most of his points off BIedrins by facing him up and taking him off the dribble. Not in the low post.

Of course Boozer didn't do all his damage on drives, but he drew so many fouls on Biedrins off of drives that Andris had to hold back once they did enter the post.

Yes, we have a problem against western-conference power forwards. But I think we match up worse against power players that can post up Jack & Al and run by Biedrins: Boozer, Brand, even players like Turiaf, who's an impoverished version of the first two.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect Biedrins to contain Duncan, Amare, or Yao, but I think he stands a better chance against those players than he does against Boozer.

Short of acquiring our own all-star PF to play next to Biedrins, I don't think this is a problem that will be fixed this year or next.

by BingBluNT on Oct 31, 2007 2:07 PM PDT reply actions

yes

I'm wording it sloppily. Not only does Biedrins have problems against big men who play with their back to the basket, he also has problems against smaller big men who face up against him.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions

ridiculous

We made it out of the first round last year with Andris Biedrins as our starting center (he started after game 1).

Conversely, without a quality center, we aren't making the playoffs. Find me a center as good or better than Biedrins thats reasonably available and we'll talk. Jermaine O'Neal is not that guy.

I'm not gonna dignify the idea with any further comment.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 31, 2007 2:39 PM PDT reply actions

Okay

J.O. isn't the answer maybe. But do you honestly think we can beat any of the top-tier teams of the West with our frontcourt?

I'm not going to say that Biedrins is DIRECTLY the reason why. But I am saying he INDIRECTLY is because of the limitations of who Nelson will allow to play next to him.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions

Excluding Dallas

I'm not saying beating Dallas was a fluke, but I am saying we OWN them match-ups wise and that's the only reason we made it out of the first round.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions

matchups

One of the mismatches we had was Biedrins>Damp/Diop/Dirk at center.

Throwing away one of the mismatches in a fit of early-season panic isn't the way to improve.

If you want to us to be a better team, help me find a power forward solution.

Hey, Baron had a buncha turnovers. We'll never win anything with him.

We should let him walk, too.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 31, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions

You're putting words in my mouth

It's no secret that defending the paint is most likely our biggest weakness. I'm simply sharing my idea on why that is and why it's so difficult to fill that void.

This isn't a "panic" either, I guess one of the problems about the internet is tone can be misrepresented. I'm not panicking. The Warriors will have a nice season, we will STEAMROLL a bunch of teams and Nelson's smallball lineup will gain much praise and acclaim for those blowouts. I predict we'll have a nice #4-#8 seed in the playoffs.

I'm just having a premonition that the same thing that happened last postseason will happen again next time, and Boozer destroying us last night furthers my point.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions

And with Biedrins extension

It scares me even more because we might be locking in so much money and financial flexibility into someone that isn't going to solve our problems (okay he solves our rebounding problem by a little bit).

I'm now really glad that extension didn't get done. Who knows what can happen this year, maybe Biedrins WILL turn into that big man stopper, or maybe we'll find one with our JRich TPE. At least we still have a year and $10mil worth of flexibility to find out.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions

Rumors

say that GSW did not get KG one of the best 4 and 5 in the NBA because they don't want to part with AB. If they did not parcel AB for Garnet, do you think they will trade him for someone who is not in KG caliber?

by muritqua on Oct 31, 2007 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions

then

Nelson needs to put someone better next to him.

You don't break your left knee because you sprained your left ankle.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 31, 2007 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions

that's the problem

We CAN'T put somebody better next to Biedrins because that person would have to have a ranged jumper. There aren't too many good power forwards, that we can get, who can do that. Biedrins makes it alot more difficult.

btw, the last time I tweaked my left ankle really bad, I developed tendonitis in my right knee from the extra weight I had to put on it.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions

then its not biedrins

But rather the PF's fault.

Removing Biedrins for what? some mythical center that's better?

We already have a Hudson bashing diary and two rebounding diaries, Barnes and Pietrus have taken hits everywhere- I guess there's nothing left to do but make sure we hitup everyone on the roster.

There are three positions in the starting lineup where we are set:

PG- Baron
SG- Azubuike
C- Biedrins

Find a solution for PF and SF if you want to improve the defense.

We also shot like crap from the perimeter- Biedrins' fault. Wait. No, thats all our shooters fault.

We missed FT's-
Biedrins fault. Wait. No, he made all of his

Biedrins can be blamed for turnovers and not finishing everything in the paint last nite. However, he showed last year those aren't chronic problems.

Extending the criticism any further is just plain reaching.

All we have to do is use the TPE on Ron Artest, plug him into PF, and all of our problems are solved.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 31, 2007 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions

Agreed

for the most part.

Artest is one of the few players that could actually solve most of this teams problems. Boozer obviously has the size advantage but Artest's strength, quickness and tenacity should allow him to compete enough.

And we still play small. It doesn't fix our lack of a second shotblocker or even give us that much more rebounding, assuming Artest's playing time comes mostly at the expense of Pietrus and Barnes. But start Jackson at the 2 and Artest and Harrington at forward, and our rebounding improves.

Elton Brand and Sheed are better and more unlikely options. Is there anyway Brand comes back before the trade deadline, shows he's recovered, and is traded?

by BingBluNT on Oct 31, 2007 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions

Brand / Sheed

Elton Brand would be great. Rasheed Wallace would be doubly great because of his 3 point range. I just don't know if Sheed has the wheels anymore to run with the dubs.

Who would be the perfect PF/C for the Warriors, in my opinion (besides KG)? Ben Wallace, hands down. He's straight up nasty defending, stealing, blocking, rebounding. Plus he brings that level of intensity and leadership that would fit so well on this squad. He's still mobile and strong even in his old age as well. His contract is kind of nasty though...

If KMart is healthy this year, I wouldn't sleep on him either.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Brand?

Brand is a) hurt and b) not available to another team in the conference.

by jae on Oct 31, 2007 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions

um...................................

he's probably talking about a hypothetical for the type of power forward that would fit well with biedrins. obviously, none of those players are coming to the warriors.

by the evil monkey on Oct 31, 2007 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions

This is the run around

If Biedrins is locked in at C, we're going to have one hell of a time trying to find a PF to play next to him that will both cover up Biedrins' offensive limitations and fix our frontcourt defensive/rebounding problems as well.

I actually agree with your Artest at PF solution. I'm also in favor for sticking David Lee next to Biedrins as well. Both of them are big upgrades over Al Harrington. But I just don't know if either of them can do anything defensively significant against the elite Western power forwards.

by jlagace on Oct 31, 2007 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions

power forwards

Aren't the only players we need to defend. Biedrins is the key to stopping the other 4 guys too, since he's a weakside shotblocker, excellent team defender (quick feet on PnR), and rebounder.

Short of Tim Duncan, maybe Garnett, or bringing Karl Malone out of retirement, you aren't going to be defending Boozer straight up.

The reason Boozer killed us is because our TEAM DEFENSE failed:

it seemed like we didn't double team at all or doublteamed extemely late and ineffectively
not enough ball pressure on jazz entry pass
didn't deny position to Boozer when he was cutting. This is on the little guys to "chip" or at least impede Boozer's path while he barrels into the lane

Stopping dominating post players is rarely an individual responsibility

Remember when Shaq was tearing up the L? You had to deny entry pass with ball pressure, pick him up early and stop him from establishing position early, and m*ake him work on defense*

I remember at least once Biedrins scored one on one on Boozer. I know Biedrins had foul trouble, but attacking him could have sent him to the bench with his own foul trouble.

Nelson didn't have a particularly good rotation with players AND the players who were in the game played like crap.

Biedrins' inability to guard Boozer is hardly reason to jump to illogical conclusions.

Can you imagine Jermaine O'Neal trying to guard Boozer from the bench where he's currently sitting with his latest injury?

Naw, none of that.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Oct 31, 2007 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions

actually,

this is what made ben wallace so valuable a few years ago when he was in his prime.

it's how guys like parrish, pj brown, h/b grant, rodman, mourning, etc stay in the league even when they're in their late 30s. it helps lower tier guys like haslem & najera stay in the nba.

i haven't watched too many pacers game, but a few years back when indy was a title contender, JO was a beast defensively (i don't think he was even allstar level offensively).

btw, outside of being long, camby is actually pretty poor at guarding the post. but just b/c you're skinny doesn't mean you can't guard the post if you're tough - clifford robinson was a decent post defender.

by the evil monkey on Oct 31, 2007 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions

the alternative is more difficult

There aren't very many good centers in the league with good range on their shots either. What are the odds the warriors could find one and then also bring in a Chris Wilcox-type to play PF? Does Wilcox even fix our Boozer-problem?

by BingBluNT on Oct 31, 2007 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions

dump Biedrins for...?

The centers who would somehow be better and allow for a different PF are...? And these guys are available for...?

There aren't too many good centers either. Realistically, there's not a center available who will be an upgrade over Biedrins or a lateral move that will allow for another player to play PF next to him. I realize Biedrins isn't flashy. I realize that he isn't a high PPG scorer, (and I realize he had a bad game against a bruising interior player) but what he does he does real well and more often than not, he's helping the team win more than he's holding them back.

by jae on Oct 31, 2007 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions

I don't follow this point you are

making that Nelson is limited who he can play next to AB

Why?

by Zig on Oct 31, 2007 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions

er...

then you don't understand floor spacing and how important it is in order for dribble penetration which is the one of the keys to the warriors attack.

by the evil monkey on Oct 31, 2007 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions

defense problems not just Biedriens

Who could the Warriors acquire instead of Biedriens if we still want to keep our system. The problem with running a system like ours is you give up strength and D inside, the Suns have that problem too. Our problem is our rebounding as a whole....the Suns don't let teams get a brutal amount of offensive rebounds. As for trading Biedriens for another PF for our solutions, I don't know if there are 10 players in the NBA who can

1 they have to defend the low post well
2 they have to rebound well
3 they have to be able to get up and down the court well
4 they have to be able to spread the defense with range on their jumpshot, because we already have a guy on the offense who doesn't have range and we can't have TWO guys like that

Another thing, Boozer is one of the top 5 power forwards in the league...and one of the most physical. Ahead of him is probably KG, Duncan, Staudamire, maybe Yao, maybe someone else. Remember, Boozer held his own against Tim Duncan in the playoffs last year. Biedriens has his problems defensively against Boozer as do most teams in the league. The problem in that game was not being able to rebound and letting milsap and brewer go crazy inside.

Our interior D is going to suffer against great players like that, the problem is that we are letting other players, Milsap, Brewer also bully us around offensively in the post, which shouldn't be happening...thats a team wide issue that has to do with us not being able to rebound and defend the paint from our other 4 positions.

by FuasonPrince on Oct 31, 2007 2:54 PM PDT reply actions

Did I miss something?

Biedrins should not have been on Boozer. Their is a reason we play Biedrins at the five, he can't play the 4. I think we would have been better off with Harrington starting at the 4 and bringing in Croshere and POB to just get in Boozers face and deny him the ball. Nelson tried something last night that didn't work. You can't go small against Utah or any other team like them. Nelson needs to show some faith in his bigs and that will help Andris play better.

by tangel29 on Oct 31, 2007 3:13 PM PDT reply actions

Bingo

you start AB with 4 guard/swing players and suddenly AB is playing out of position and has no help on the boards or the paint against a very big physical team

I can't think of many players more perfect for Nelson's system at the 5 unless you are talking about an Okur like player who is just big and shots the 3

I am pretty mystified with this MP at power forward experiment. I think you have to start AL or even Croshere for size alone

Once JAX comes back if Buke sits this will get even more ridiculous

by Zig on Oct 31, 2007 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions

Part of the D

Biedrins is the only W's player that consistently guards the basket. With the Utah bigs trying to set up shop on the blocks, it's only a matter of time till Biedrins gets matched up on Boozer.

We know one thing: Utah will not change their game plan, and I certainly agree that the Biedrins-and-4-small-guys strategy is not effective against the Jazz. Why not go big? Play a twin tower 4-5 with AB and POB, with Al at the 3. The W's are stockpiling young big men. I say we try them out in different spots.

Against many teams in the league, however, the Biedrins-and-4-small-guys strategy works wonders.

During the telecast, Bob and Jim kept asking (almost pleading) Nellie to try a zone. Wasn't there a game early last season at home against Utah where Nellie went zone for like 46 minutes of the game, and the Utah offense just came to a grinding halt b/c no one could hit a shot? Anyone remember this?

Or do you think Deron Williams has just gotten too good for a zone?

by UncleCliffy on Oct 31, 2007 3:24 PM PDT reply actions

I think

we did try a zone, and brewer got a free dunk from deron

by Dubs4Life on Oct 31, 2007 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions

We did...

zone the entire 1st Quarter which was the closest we were in the game. Man defense allowed weakside cutting and easy assists last night. It didn't matter who was running the point, Deron, AK47, and even CJ Miles; they all had reliable cutters from the weakside who could dunk easily...Millsap, Boozer, Brewer.

by onetwocross on Oct 31, 2007 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions

that

was a missed assignment. if i recall correctly, it was kelenna. if anyone tivo'd the game and wants to waste their time, i think baron talks to him about it afterwards.

by the evil monkey on Oct 31, 2007 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions

Frontcourt Situation

As good at it would be to have Brand or even Rasheed in our frontcourt, we would probably have to give up quite a lot for them. Our team has a lot of young players (Ellis, Belinelli, Wright, Azubuike...) as well as experienced ones with good team chemistry and I don't think the team needs a major overhaul, just a quality PF added. For me, Artest would be a good fit at PF; he is an excellent defender, a decent rebounder and scorer and he would fit into the team well.

by zaki on Oct 31, 2007 4:54 PM PDT reply actions