Rasheed Wallace (Not Trade Idea)

by BeLEGENDelliAllDay on Nov 16, 2007 8:12 AM PST Comment 29 comments

I got, like most of ya'll, watched the Detriot game last night, and I had a couple of questions/ comments about the game in general, especially about Sheed.

Either Fitz or Barnett said something that was really interesting last night. He basically said, "Tell me what Rasheed Wallace does not do that Garnett does, and Sheed has the ability to hit the three, which KG doesn't". Though almost nobody would argue that Sheed is at KG's level, but it is an interesting point. At about half (I think) the cost, how would ya'll say that Sheed stacks up to KG? Besides the intangibles, which KG dominates at, why do you think Sheed is rarely mentioned as one of the elite players?
As Sheed was killing us in the low post late in the ballgame, why was Al guarding him with Dre on Nazr? Isn't that what Biendris is supposed to excel at (especailly because Al is usually trashed for his d)? Nazr is a complete offensive non-factor, and they were running the o through Wallace? Wouldn't you want your best post defender on him, especailly if we were only double teaming when he put the ball on the floor? Is Andris not our best post defender? Someone please explain this to me....
Lastly, not to state the obvious, but how much do we need a low post threat, especially late in the game, when players have tired legs. As a guard, I remember when we would play full games in high school, as the game went on, especailly when I was doing a lot of penetrating, it got so much tougher to slash to the hoop, as well as hit the three ball because of fatigue. Is there any guy available who you think could solve this problem. I am not saying "Let's sign Boozer" or something ridiculous, but is there a guy we could find who could help us here. If not, I think we keep losing these close games against teams who have the ability to pound it inside (and having Jax or JRich back won't do a damn thing).

Sorry for the moster diary, but I've been thinking about this since last night....peace, dan

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Comments

Sheed

KG is a monster defensively and on the boards, Sheed is merely good at both. KG is a good passer and an extremely unselfish player. KG brings a certain intensity to the game that uplifts his teammates' play. Rasheed Wallace brings a certain intensity to the game which results in alot of technicals and getting thrown out of games.
If Rasheed is floating around the perimeter on offense while Biedrins is guarding him man-to-man, then Biedrins has to follow Rasheed all the way out to the perimeter as well to defend his 3 point shot. Biedrins out on the perimeter is a bad idea, he's the only guy we have that can really defend the rim against dribble penetration.
A good post threat would be nice, yet rare. About half of the NBA is missing a dependable post threat, and the teams that do have them are among the elite in the NBA.

by jlagace on Nov 15, 2007 9:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Boards

Sheed hasn't boarded well in a while. As you say, he's been good...but not so much anymore.

24 > 23

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Nov 15, 2007 9:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

anyway

he was good @ this game
-they should make him foul not hit stupid quick shots from downtown

20 sec defense 5 sec offense -impossible to win

As a fan, I M killed. dead.. and give me back my bottle...

by Lat We N Trash on Nov 15, 2007 9:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

not to mention

KG is a far superior athlete. quickness speed, hops, all that. Sheed is heavier and bigger but kg is much more mobile and still very strong

by Proof on Nov 16, 2007 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Response...

Sheed was going down to the low post EVERY SINGLE time, I would much rather have him "floating" around near the three point line than killing us down low...peace, dan

by BeLEGENDelliAllDay on Nov 15, 2007 9:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

in addition

to jlagace's astute comments above, KG brings consistency leadership and professionalism

by hardcore on Nov 15, 2007 9:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Good thoughts

I was actually talking to FJ about this last night. Rasheed is supremely talented and is one of the few players that can matchup with with Duncan and KG. I don't care think the guy really cares too much about getting numbers- just winning. He really seems to float at times. He's puzzling in that way.
Andris is just not a good one-on-one defender in the post. Sometimes I think he's a really poor man defender on other team's bigs. He just doesn't have the size, speed, footwork, or know-how. Hopefully he improves- I think this is just one of those things young bigs are suffer from- actually Amare's still a bad defender. Biedrins is usually a nice help defender though- but not this year although the Warriors perimeter D has been atrocious and it's not his fault. On the other hand Al is a very underrated low post defender. He's smart and knows how to use his speed to his advantage. His D on Yao, Gasol, and Boozer down the stretch of that 16-5 run last season was a key reason why the Warriors made the playoffs.
Ron Artest and Jermaine O'Neal are 2 names I bet that could be had. Artest isn't a a big man, but he does have a great post game and could play the 4 in Nellieball. I'm worried Jermaine can't run with Nellieball, but he can score down low (although his ability is seemingly fading). Both players would instantly improve the Warriors D... and their chances of knocking out some more of those barbarian Pistons fans when the Warriors play in Auburn Hills.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 15, 2007 10:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

ive had this discussion with my friend

and he feels, rasheed in his prime, when he brought his A game, was a top 5 player. I disagreed, because i just feel that to be a top 5 player, you have to be able to create scoring opportunities at will. Seeing that KG and Sheed arent the biggest of dudes out there, they cant shaq their way in the paint, so that would require some ball handling skills, which sheed doesnt exactly have. I just think Sheed is missing the ability to create a shot from the perimeter, which is whats missing from him being an elite player, imo

by Thoang77 on Nov 15, 2007 11:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

there is only one shaq

the only other guy close to him right now is yao. Other than those to KG and Sheed are amongst the biggest dudes in the NBA give or take a few inches. KG is smaller but a lot quicker.

by Proof on Nov 16, 2007 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Diesel is falling off the rails

by hardcore on Nov 16, 2007 6:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

and thats right

only supporting my point even more. Dude said they were small compared to shaq and shaq is basically done.

by Proof on Nov 16, 2007 10:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wait a second..

Everything I have read, heard and seen is that Al is our best post defender. Wasn't his defense against Yao and the likes a big part of our playoff run? Maybe I am mistaken...

by belli nellie on Nov 16, 2007 12:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

All is good on D

andris is probably a little better straight up down low because he is taller and better at challenging and blocking shots.

Al wasn't guarding Yao straight up. We schemed vs the Rockets to utilize our quickness to stop Yao. Basically if we put Andris our tallest best interior defender on yao straight up he would still get owned because Yao towers over everybody so we weant with Al gaurding him. Al was much quicker and was able to front Yao and we had help on the backside and just clogged passing lanes and denied yao. If he ever did get the ball we swarmed him. So yeh we put Al on Yao, but its not like Al shut him down on his own it was more of the scheme.

by Proof on Nov 16, 2007 5:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry

to switch the subject, but Atma had mentioned Ron Artest possibly being had. What kind of scenario would it take to pick him up? Monta Ellis and Pietrius? Or another team getting involved?

Sounds good to me?

by highflya on Nov 16, 2007 12:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

To get Artest

Mainly, it would take the Kings really Really wanting to get rid of him before even considering trading him to a division rival.

If I recall correctly, Artest and Bibby had some oncourt chemistry issues. Currently, that problem has fixed itself with Bibby being injured and off the court, but we'll see when he gets back.

OZ's been saying all it could take is sending a trade pick and our TPE to get him, but I believe it might take more. How much more? It depends on how much crazier he gets.

by jlagace on Nov 16, 2007 1:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

range

There's quite a range, imo, on Artest' value (and therefore his price). If he's playing poorly/causing problems, the Kings would probably be delighted with ditching him without having to take any money back, which means TPE. If we have to throw in a pick and what that pick will be,...i dunno, could be a first, could be a protected first, could be a second, could be nothing. If he's playing well, flashing the low post game, not dominating the ball and chucking up 3's, locking fools down on the perimeter like he normally does, then...the scenario I mentioned before: TPE for Artest separately Ellis/Pietrus/Kosta for Cal-product Shareef Abdur Raheem 'reef is mad about playing time, his contract is burdensome in a crowded frontcout, there's no need for him on a rebuilding team. Removing a load of payroll + sending them Ellis with his Bird rights should be sufficient. They'd have to pay Ellis, but without Artest/Raheem and with Bird rights they could do it easily. Essentially, they'd ditch Artest and give Ellis Shareef's money. We get our lockdown defender who can be a 3 or a 4 depending how u wanna play it and a veteran big who can also play 3/4/5 and score down low. I view 'reef as a past-his-prime Harrington with spot minutes of effectiveness in his tank.

24 > 23

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Nov 16, 2007 9:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sheed v. KG

Per 40 mins career (12 seasons each)

Garnett
----
21.4 pts
11.9 reb
4.7 ast
1.4 stl
1.8 blk
----
49.1% fg
78.0% ft
54.3% tsp
23.8 PER
400 win shares

Rasheed
----
18.0 pts
8.1 reb
2.3 ast
1.1 stl
1.6 blk
----
47.7% fg
71.5% ft
54.1% tsp
17.4 PER
256 win shares

So, um, other than the fact that KG is better at everything ... sure, they're kinda similar. Sheed may be "almost as good" as KG, in the abstract, but at those upper echelons the marginal upgrade from a Top 20 NBA player to Top 2-3 player is huge --and worth every penny it takes to get there. Clyde Drexler was almost as good as Michael Jordan.

Meanwhile, does it bear mentioning that the Ws passed on both these players in the 1995 draft? Nahhhh, I thought not...

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 16, 2007 3:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Edit to add

Garnett's superiority as a player goes even beyond those "per 40 minute" numbers, since another of his amazing qualities is his motor and durability.

In 12 seasons:

Rasheed: 866 games, 34.3 mins/game
Garnett: 927 games, 38.3 mins/game

That's 5800 more minutes total over KG's career, or 166 games at 35 minutes per game: basically two full seasons more of production.

Further, playoff numbers, for those question KG's "clutchness" :

Garnett: 22.3 pts, 13.4 reb, 5.0 ast
Rasheed: 15.1 pts, 6.8 reb, 1.7 ast

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 16, 2007 5:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

numbers

Championships:
Sheed- 1
Garnett-0 (one coming soon?)

this doesn't necessarily prove anything, but then neither do those above numbers.

Garnett's been the main guy on some crappy teams, this had to have helped his numbers. but i do agree sheed is only "almost as good" as KG. KG is just unquestionably awesome- who doesn't love that intensity and leadership?

Sheed has better quotes though
1.police: do you have marijuana in your possesion? sheed: nope. we smoked it all
2.when he'd only say: "it was a great game, everyone played hard",
3. comments about stern's authoritarianism, echoes of slavery, etc. (overdoing it, sure, but not without merit)

while it can cross over into annoying a lot of the time I really like his entertainment factor- he's a character which is what the NBA needs.

who do i want on the warriors? kevin "tim k" garnett. though baron, barnes, jackson, artest, and rasheed would be a bad ass team.

by airport son on Nov 16, 2007 8:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Er

The above numbers prove (or indicate, if you prefer) that KG is significantly better at rebounding, passing, defense and FT shooting than Sheed; marginally better at shooting from the floor; and worse at nothing. I think 12 NBA seasons constitute a decent enough sample size.

A 1-0 edge in championships proves ... basically nothing.

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 16, 2007 9:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

those stats mean nothing? Yeah and Barons stats vs. Jasecevikous's stats mean nothing as well.

by Proof on Nov 16, 2007 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know about that Sleepy...

I think Garnett getting a ring in Boston is ABSOLUTLEY crucial to his legacy. In my opinion, he's a loser. He lost something like 8 first round playoff series in a row (you can correct me if I'm wrong), and when he had a good team, they got waxed by the Lakers in the Finals. I LOVE KG, and would love to see him here, and want him to do well, but that championship is SO important to his career.
Also, hypothetically, I would rather trade for Sheed, and keep most of the core together (which is doable), than have made one those ridicoulus trades (where we give everyone away but Baron, Mp2, Nelson, and Bobby Sura) for KG.
Also, without Sheed there is no way that Piston team beats the Lakers, or gets one game from another chip against the Spurs 3 years ago....Peace, dan

by BeLEGENDelliAllDay on Nov 16, 2007 10:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Good points

On the one hand, in hoops more than in baseball or football, one player can, to a degree, control the game. So it is probably fairer to question KG's lack of a ring more than it would be to question, say, Barry Bonds' or Ted Williams'.

That said MJ, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq et al. have all had fabulous players to complement their games, without whom they wouldn't have won (an didn't win) a thing. KG, until this year, has never had anyone in the same universe of a Pippen, Worthy, or McHale.

I just think it's unfair to imbue Sheed's one ring with some magical value, in the face of overwhelming statistical evidence that KG is a much better player. Not to mention the anecdotal evidence that KG is a total f*ing beast and a born leader with a burning passion to win...

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 16, 2007 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

100% with you on this

and another thing. Sheed wasn't even the best player or the MVP on his championship team! how bout that. Chauncy won the MVP for the finals and you could make a case that Rip, him, Tashaun, and Wallace were just as good/ important to the team as sheed. That was just a very good all around team. Switch KG and sheed and they probably have more then one ring.

by Proof on Nov 16, 2007 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

rasheed is more clutch

just joking!

i humbly concede kg is a better all around player- no one needs stats for that. and of course lots of players get rings who aren't very good. stats, while being very wonderful tools, still don't show the total value of a player (all the old lakers had nice stats but the pistons killed them). while we can never know how many rings a KG led pistons team would win, we do know that rasheed was a major part of the chemistry and team offense/defense. he also shot 3's (a stat conspicuously missing, since its probably the one thing he does better than KG). hmm in the end i've done the very uninteresting thing of taking no stance. but its KG! i'm willing to wildly overrate sheed b/c i'm a huge fan, but KG pretty much puts a stop to any of that.

by airport son on Nov 17, 2007 12:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

3 pt shooting

Actually, it isn't conspicuously missing: it's included in the statistic "tsp," True Shooting Percentage, which is calculated by

PTS / (2*(FGA + (0.44*FTA)).

And is, as you can see, very close to even between the two players (though KG still leads by .2%, heh).

In the end it may be more of a negative than a positive to have your 6'11" 240 lb. beast of a PF hoisting up 200-300 threes a year while only mustering a career 6.9 rebounds a game.

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 17, 2007 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

oh

my bad. tsp made me think of baking. that's actually a good category.

is it possible sheed is a better baker, rapper, or visual artist? oh, donyell marshall! he always seemed to do well against KG and not Sheed. you've come back again and again- i feel like cool hand luke getting pummeled. i am fatigued, i am out of ideas, you win. now i hate sheed, he is worthless.

by airport son on Nov 18, 2007 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs