Revisiting the Reasons for the JRich Trade
It's popular belief here on GSoM that JRich was traded for one of two reasons:
a) It was part of a communication blunder and a failed attempt to include Al Thornton in a trade package to get KG, as noted here: http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2007/11/20/warriors_not_enough/.
I have a hard time believing that a communication as bad as this could have happened. How hard could have it been for Mullin to find out beforehand which player to draft that the Timberwolves wanted? If Mullin was incapable of doing that as a GM and drafted the wrong guy on accident, he would've been fired by now.
b) It was a salary dumping move so that we could re-sign Biedrins and/or Monta Ellis next season. I have a hard time believing this one as well.. if this was the case, why couldn't we have just kept JRich and moved him at this year's trade deadline?
The more I look at our current payroll, the more I believe that moving JRich was out of necessity for this season's roster. Taking a look at our payroll: http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/golden_state.htm
This includes Foyle's and Sarunas' contracts, which would be the situation if we hadn't been able to buy them out. Our payroll would sit at $65.5mil, just $2.4mil under the luxury tax; and this is without JRich's contract. Now subtract Brandan Wright's contract and add JRich's contract to that, we'd be at $73.2mil, or $5.3mil over the luxury tax. If we had kept JRich, more than half our bench wouldn't be here.
It's an illusion that we're just sitting on JRich's pretty $9.9mil TPE, deciding whether or not we should use it to trade for Artest or use it to re-sign Biedrins/Monta. That money isn't even there, we had to use the salary to fill out the rest of our depth chart. The money was used to re-sign Barnes, Pietrus and Buke; sign Perovic, Belinelli, Wright, and Lasme. All those contracts add up. And while we still were able to fill our 15-man roster and stay out of the luxury tax, we're not far enough away from the luxury tax to use our TPE for anything significant.
This brings me more peace about the JRich trade, knowing that it was more of a necessity than anything else. If we had kept JRich, our bench right now would be littered with scrub minimum-contract players.
Some will argue that our bench isn't even really contributing right now. Keep in mind that Baron and SJax won't be able to play 40 minutes every night for the rest of the season, and injuries will undoubtedly happen, and at some point our bench players will be heavily relied upon. And the JRich trade will have paid its dividends.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
0 recs |
69 comments
Comments
I'm not quite sure I believe this but
But, all feelings set aside, I am happy we made the trade. Wright very well seems like he's going to be one hell of a player for us.
by BlueNgoldBlood on Nov 29, 2007 4:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Timing of trades
Charlotte was an ideal trade partner for dumping salary because we didn't have to bring anything back for them to be able to take on Richardson. Furthermore, we knew their draft position at the time the deal was agreed to rather than trading for a pick of uncertain status in an upcoming draft.
The move was a financial decision probably based on both the short term-stay under the tax this year and longer term-be able to pay Biedrins and/or Monta in a year combined with the general feeling that, as good as Richardson was, he plays a position that is regarded as easier to fill. Whether this reasoning is correct or not, it did appear that they would have the option of filling his minutes at the 2 and 3 with guys under contract (Jackson or Monta), guys who would were restricted free agents (Pietrus) or available on the cheap (Azubuike), or through the draft (Belinelli). Obviously, not all of these options are necessarily going to be as good as Richardson, but I suspect the feeling was that as long as they were already committed to Jackson and Monta for a year or more at less than what Richardson made, testing these guys as a 5-headed off-guard combination and seeing if they could turn Richardson into future value made more sense than keeping Richardson at considerable financial cost short and long term.
by jae on Nov 29, 2007 8:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
It's always been about salary
This move is and always has been about increasing financial flexibility. You're right, the TPE is just something that exists but isn't on the books - but SHOULD a player become available, the team MAY have the means to pick him up. The intention of the deal was to give the team options and the means to pursue those options.
by pree on Nov 29, 2007 11:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Cohan is happy
To say that keeping Richardson would have meant we would have to sign some scrubs on the bench is a little confusing. Isn't that what we ended up doing anyway? Croshere, Hudson and Mbenga aren't exactly your super subs. None of them are in are 8 man rotation.
I think we should have kept Richardson for one more season at the very least and then re-evaluate what we needed to do. Wright will be a nice player for the future but we should have been more worried about right now.
by tangel29 on Nov 29, 2007 11:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
So you'd like the dubs run like the knicks...
Even with jrich in the mix, the dubs at best would be seeded sixth. Hardly in line with the suns and the mavs.
Plus the BEST team in the last half decade(spurs)seems to avoid hitting luxury tax pretty good. If they could do it, it ain't impossible.
So with that being said, choosing to keep j-rich would have meant losing, barnes, mp2, probably buke. Now is J-rich more valuable than barnes, mp2, crochere, THUD, DJ Banger & wright? IMO... no.
Best duo since...
by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 29, 2007 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We can go back
- We got financial flexibility
- Get rid of a (arguably) bad contract
- Get a young promising PF
And yes i think Barnes, MP, Croshere, Wright, Thud = Jrich.
by kenntoe on Nov 29, 2007 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the point is this
Also, comparing the financials to the Knicks is inaccurate. Think about it, the Knicks don't care how much money they spend because they can afford to go over the luxury tax and it doesn't hurt them financially. Just because they created a bad team doesn't mean that the strategy is bad. It just means that they didn't pick good players. They could very well pay the luxury tax and have great players, but that just hasn't happened yet.
Again, what do you care if Cohan has to pay the luxury tax if we can get a better team?
by Fantasy Junkie on Nov 29, 2007 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
there's a salary cap
Given that Richardson isn't an elite player, why bother handicapping yourself with such an anchor? To have another shot at mediocrity? The Bobcats are under .500 with him, we're on our way up.
There's a difference between being under the tax and under the cap. If you're over the cap, you can't do anything but use the MLE or re-sign your own guys. The tax is merely a limitation on your ability to do those things.
If you're under the cap, then you can truly go out and get outside talent.
For a team that's good, being over the cap and unable to really bring in outside talent isn't really relevant- you have the talent you need mostly, and just need to fine tune the fit and retain what you have.
For a team thats mediocre or worse, being over the cap is stupid. You don't have the talent and you can't go out any get any. Hence, Portland/Seattle/Minnesota craving expiring contracts, which will create cap space, which will free them to acquire more talent.
Now whether you think the Warriors made a good or bad move depends on whether you think they are a good team or not. The GSoM front office, so to speak, seems to think with Richardson or had we kept Arenas (even though that was impossible since we were...um...NOT UNDER THE CAP), the Warriors would have been a good team.
I do not think we would have been a good team, we would have been a mediocre team. Hence, going back to what I explained above, financial flexibility is better, unless you really enjoy a buncha 35-40 win seasons, which is more or less what we were last year.
Now, however, we might be a 35-40 win team still give or take, but we're a 35-40 win team with options. That's the difference, and it's a difference that seems to have gone unappreciated by so many here.
To save everyone some time and effort, let me just go ahead and post what you're gonna post ahead of time:
Cohan is cheap
Win at all costs who cares its not my money.
Richardson brought heart, leadership, fire, intangibles.
Win now win now win now win now win now
boo hoo we didn't get Garnett
/diary
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Nov 29, 2007 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OMG
Trading Jrich gives us a ton of options we wouldn't have had if we kept him. That is a basketball move and a financial move. But it does indeed involve both.
The Jrich beer goggles gets so much hype its ridiculous. He's not that great.
by kenntoe on Nov 29, 2007 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah
It punishes stupid teams mercilessly. Cleveland, for example, desparately needs help for Lebron. Previously, however, the Cavs gave Eric Snow, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall, and Larry Hughes ridiculous contracts.
Should they simply be able to spend more money and fix their problem through brute force (i.e. more cash)?
Hell no.
I would hate to have to watch any sport where a front office can give Jerome James a monster contract, then go around and try to upgrade their team by giving Jared Jeffries a monster contract...with no ramifications. Under the current system, the Knicks are completely and utterly FUBAR. Sucking, being stuck sucking, and paying cash to the rest of the league for their own stupidity. I love it.
Maybe it's just not "cool" to want front offices to act smart and savvy, to enjoy watching my team show restraint, and for crappy players to not get over paid.
That is why Baseball SUCKS. The MLB is completely screwed up and needs a cap.
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Nov 29, 2007 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MLB cap
Teams like the Yankees and Red sox would be so far over the cap that they would have to release high priced players. Those players would have trouble finding work elsewhere because of their high previous salaries. You know darn well that even if they are a superstar player, they arent going to want to take a lower salary to play elsewhere, and the small market teams wont be able to afford them. Baseball will not have a cap anytime soon. Baseball players association will not allow it
by sloth11 on Nov 29, 2007 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MLB v. NBA
The thing is, even given the absurdly unfair advantage teams like tne Sox and Yankees have -- the Marlins entire team makes only slightly more than Alex Rodriguez -- to overpay for not-quite-elite-level talent can be crippling. Superstars are one thing: I doubt the Yankees have ever regretted the $20M they've been paying inner-circle A-Rod (the $30M they'll be playing him going forward, till age 40, is another question). But you have to wonder if they couldn't have bought themselves a title or four this millennium if they hadn't been hamstrung by way-above-market deals for mediocrities like Pavano, Mussina, Damon, and Farnsworthless. Ditto for the Red Sox and guys like Clement, Lugo, and JD Drew -- though in their case comparably undervalued deals like Ortiz, Beckett, and Papelbon have allowed them to pick up a couple of titles (yay!)
If overpaying for mediocrity can handcuff the Sox and Yankees, imagine what they can do to mid-market teams like the Giants. Can you say Barry Zito?
And then take a step further and imagine how devastating it is to a team in the hard-cap NBA. Again, I'm completely for breaking the bank for elite level talent. You pay whatever it takes and more to acquire and retain Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, LeBron, Howard et al. But there's no surer recipe for failure or perpetual mediocrity than to be paying $12-14 for a guy like Jason Richardson (no disrespect intended, love the guy, bless his soul, miss him, etc. etc.)
Still: far, far stupider than retaining the bloated contract of a guy like JRich is what Orlando did with Rashard Lewis -- paying max money to a guy who at the time of the signing was obviously not close to an elite level talent, and had precisely zero potential to blossom into one. Basically, the Magic may have pissed away five or six rings with their stupidity. Instead of being able to pair Howard (already the most dominant young player in the league, or at worst #1B after LeBron) with a legit #2 stud -- imagine Howard in 2-5 years paired with a CP3, a Deron, or a LeBron??? -- they're completely handcuffed by a "franchise player" who's routinely outperformed by Hedo Turkoglu.
If I were Howard I'd walk into Orlando's GM's office and beat the living crap out of him. Absolute freaking idiocy.
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 29, 2007 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing the point
Let's say we can sign All-Star Big Man X, but it puts us well into the luxury tax. Do you support it? Of course, because it makes us a better team. That's what we're talking about here, making us a better team. As a fan who suffered through 13 straight years of losing, I just want to win. I'm tired of being financially responsible, under the cap, building for the future, and acquiring players because they're "cap friendly". I'm tired of fans who think that somehow not signing a player who will help us win is better for us. If the best team Mullin can put out there puts us into the luxury tax, then I'm all for it.
I just want to win. Flat out. If that makes us financially irresponsible, so be it. Field the best team possible regardless of the cap and the luxury tax. That's all I'm saying here.
So in the OptionZero way of debating, you're wrong. You may think you're right, but you're wrong. You can have your own opinion on this, but your opinion is wrong. LOL.
by Fantasy Junkie on Nov 30, 2007 9:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly the point
Whenever a good player on another team is available to be traded for, why haven't the Warriors been able to put together a trade package good enough to get them? It's not always for lack of talent that we offer. It's because we've had a payroll full of overpaid underachieving players, and nobody else wants to pay for their contracts. We got extremely lucky with the Dunmurphy trade, and even then, we're stuck with two players (SJax and Harrington) that no other team values; but thank the LORD they play well in our system and under our head coach.
Don't misunderstand me here though, I'm not throwing JRich into the genre of "overpaid and underachieving". But with how effectively he's been replaced in the starting lineup, and how crippling his contract is, and for how much value he's worth to other teams; it was a no brainer which salary we had to dump to keep the rest of the team together and competitive.
by jlagace on Nov 30, 2007 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Again
What I am saying, and I'll repeat this as I've said before, is that fans should not be concerned about a franchise paying the luxury tax if that means we bring in a player who can help get wins and get us in the playoffs.
by Fantasy Junkie on Nov 30, 2007 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Josh Childress?
I like that you brought up the Knicks, though. To me, Isiah sideshow aside, they're precisely Exhibit 1A of what happens when you:
- Let your personnel moves be dictated by an impatient fanbase; and
- Overpay for not-quite-elite level talent like Richardson. Jason Richardson, Quentin Richardson, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, Starbury, Francis, Z-Bo, whoever. Personality quirks aside, all these guys are in more or less the same category: nice guys to have at a scale- or mid-level salary, but potential franchise-cripplers at $10-20M.
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 30, 2007 6:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jared Jeffries
And I'm very happy we don't have Isiah at the helm, thank you very much.
by Fantasy Junkie on Dec 1, 2007 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jeffries at $5.6M
by Sleepy Freud on Dec 1, 2007 5:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but spend on what?
The problem is also that while spending money, going into tax space may give you the "best team possible" it's possible that a) that team won't be very good and b) the moves made today may mean the team will be even worse in the future than if they accepted not being marginally better (but still not a champion) but kept their possibilities open for a time when they'd be closer. There are times when it makes sense to stand pat when the costs won't bring back enough, saving for the time when the same price will bring back better rewards.
If I thought that spending more would put the team substantially closer to a title, I'd be all for it. I don't see how they could have spent more this year and given themselves a product that would be better.
by jae on Nov 30, 2007 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But isn't that kind of pointless?
by chacabuco on Nov 30, 2007 7:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why can't we understand this?
How is that a proper analogy?
I'm not saying go spend a ton of cash on players just to spend money. I'm saying that if you want to sign a player that is going to help your team win, then don't let the luxury tax be a barrier to that move.
by Fantasy Junkie on Dec 1, 2007 3:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry you didn't like my imperfect analogy.
by chacabuco on Dec 1, 2007 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
win at all costs
You and Atma bitch alot about my attitude and how I present my arguments, but I've never adopted the stance that I cannot be wrong. My stance is that you should challenge what I say if you think I'm wrong, and convince me.
Why would I admit that another opinion is legitimate if I don't think it is? Should I lie? Somehow honesty is less valuable than making other people feel better?
There's inevitably an attack on my "attitude", but curiously absent, i find, are any arguments addressing the points that I've made.
Anyways, as you say, the GSoM stance is win at all costs, f-ck the rules. That's fine. That's your feeling and opinion, you can have it.
I think your opinion is wrong (thats my opinion, and you damn well better not censor me, because that would be oh-so-hypocritical). I value what the salary cap and luxury tax aim to do- force front offices into spending smarter not more. You guys seem to only care about spending more, period, becauase for some reason that's a measure of front office meeting is "obligation" to you "hard-working season ticket holders", or whatever you fancy yourselves to justify taking such a stance. Again, thats your opinion and I'm presenting my opinion on your opinon.
And i'm doing it honestly, cuz thats the only way I know how.
If I ever make any point and you disagree, I don't particularly care how you feel about it. I care more about why you're disagreeing, and if you give a damn about an actual discussion, then wipe your tears away, clean off your pants, and present your argument. I'll read it and reply, we'll do it a few times until you run out of kleenex or until we've distilled the truth. That's a discussion.
Holding hands while we shop for GSoM merchandise or chanting DOWN WITH COHAN doesn't do it for me, sorry.
Honesty is the best policy
-ab1
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Nov 30, 2007 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
when does disagreeing
by dj fuzzylogic on Nov 30, 2007 9:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thats HILARIOUS
do as I say, don't do as I do? do you really want me to post up emails about that shit?
seriously man, you don't want to start that shit with me.
I didn't ask for this topic to come up, you guys BUMPED the diary, and now you're gonna talk about how I'm condescending? please
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Nov 30, 2007 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like..
C'mon fellas..
by jlagace on Nov 30, 2007 10:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Nov 30, 2007 10:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
look dude
and why are you taking such an antagonistic tone? we're just asking you to be less aggressive and rude to others and if you can' t say what you want without belitting someone for not convincing you enough then you should really just find another venue.
by dj fuzzylogic on Nov 30, 2007 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't we all just get along...
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/story/2007/3/30/34233/8536
OK yeah, it was his first diary... three days before he managed to piss half of GSoM off. =P
but you must admit the quality puts 90% of the diaries here to shame, and the loss of this type of analysis on GSoM would be a sad day for a W's fan.
.
by olympicmike on Dec 1, 2007 12:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i ony speak for myself
just because i addressed a question of tone and NOT content, someone thinks he's ready to e-scrap with me? THIS is exactly the problem. We're not talking about honest critiques; there is a thin line between being hard-hitting and being an ass (i suppose this depends on which side of the line you're one on that). honestly, i can't imagine what this person would be like in real life if we were face to face talking about the salary cap.
by dj fuzzylogic on Dec 1, 2007 7:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have some class
by Atma Brother ONE on Dec 1, 2007 12:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Boy oh boy
And we haven't been censoring anyone based on opinion. we laid out the ground rules for moderation and intend to follow them. So I'm not sure why you would bring up censorship.
I care about the tax and the cap in that we shouldn't be signing just anyone. Murphy and Dunleavy were killing us because they took up two spots on the roster and we couldnt' get rid of them at their current salaries. But if we can find someone who can help the team, then go get him. If that means going over the cap and tax, then so be it.
I don't think I care about only spending more. I care about spending to win, if that winning will make us competitive in the playoffs. So if that player is the difference in making the playoffs or not, then I feel the team should sign him. And if that signing puts us into the luxury tax, then we should still sign him.
I've been disagreeing with you and presenting a consistent argument that the luxury tax should not be a barrier to making us a better team. Tears? Please.
by Fantasy Junkie on Dec 1, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
spending more money
Newsflash: the mistakes of Murphy and Dunleavy are still around, as are the mistakes of Richardson's large extension and Foyle.
Those mistakes you want to "correct" by spending MORE money, effectively buying our way out of the cap purgatory that we dug for ourselves in the first place.
This is not a solution, nor SHOULD it be a solution. Allowing any team, even MY team to do that is bad for the sport. If being concerned about the integrity of the league makes me a "bad" fan, then so be it.
If a team could and "should" just spend more money to correct it past mistakes, then the league devolves into a contest of who has more money, NOT who has the most discerning front office. Maybe as a "selfish", or if you want to think of it "passionate" fan you don't give any of that- whatever, whats your opinion, and I think that opinion is pretty stupid.
If the NBA wants to become a better league, then I am all for punishing the stupidest front offices by forcing them to bear the burden of their mistakes, even if that burden lasts for years.
the Salary cap is a percentage of total basketball income for the NBA, not some random number; the luxury tax is a figure above that calculated based on the bottom line for most teams.
As I have said before, the Warriors will be pushing the tax next year, so any concerns about "cheapness" are completely missplaced.
Regarding my posting...I was told to let far worse posting go when I was moderating. I do not bring "OptionZero" up as a topic, when there was a diary created to explain the new moderation, I did not post in it. I do not want to talk about it; I would prefer if I, the poster, were not mentioned at all. All I care about is the validity of my ideas.
Somehow, thought, I keep coming up, and I know for damn sure it's not me that brings up the topic. If you don't want it to be a big deal, then don't give me shit, let me do my thing. I post and people can read what I say; you post and people read what you say. They have brains (mostly) and I stand by whatever I write. Let me be judged on the legitimacy and accuracy content of my posts, I don't think anyone needs more crap about "OptionZero" and "feelings" or "Attitude".
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Dec 1, 2007 6:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Judging the J-Rich Trade
So, for this season, you would weigh a couple of $ million luxury tax payment vs. the difference between J-Rich and the guy who replaced him, Azubuike. Buike is an unknown. He has a PER of 13.00, so far in his short career. He's young (but not real young by NBA standards) so he's likely to improve, but by how much? J-Rich, meanwhile, is off to a slow start, but a healthy J-Rich is just below All-Star level, somewhere around a 18-19 PER. That seems like a pretty sizable difference. Plus, there is the difference of Azubuike and HIS replacement, whom I guess is Belinelli, who's just been put on the inactive list.
So, J-Rich's absence has had a ripple effect in terms of Warrior's personnelle. And for THIS season, with just a minimal luxury tax savings. THIS season, so far, it's not a good trade.
For next season, the Warrior's committed salaries, with J-Rich replacing Wright, would be about $56 million. With next season's luxury tax probably between $70-72 million they could afford to sign Beidrins and Ellis and replacement players to fill our the roster, for somewhat above the luxury tax. Pretty doable. But they couldn't afford players like Barnes and Azubuike, so that would be the rub.
I don't know. I think without doing anything with the TPE, it remains to be seen how this trade will benefit the Warriors in the long run.
by San Francisco Slim on Nov 29, 2007 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the difference
As they stand now they're .500 after 14 games. Where's the drop off? It's been negligible.
If we had had Jackson...then what?
I don't consider Richardson near All-Star talent, and he ain't even close to that this year. His career per is 16, which is a tad above average. That figure doesn't look like it's gonna sky rocket any time soon.
That Azubuike still had a PER of 13 despite hitting the wall with his FG% (reaggravated ankle sprain?) is pretty amazing to me; I'm assuming it has to do with his solid rebounding from the 2/3 spot and lack of turnovers early on.
For people that don't want to think about the problem, it'll always be Richardson v. Cohan's bottom line. If thats all someone wants to look at, fine. Just don't pretend like thats all there is to it.
The reality is much greater. It's your choice how much of it to acknowledge.
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Nov 29, 2007 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait,
Okay, that was a better team than we what have right now. Plus, if J-Rich was still on the team, we would have a 9-man rotation, as opposed to the 8-man we have right now, which should make a significant difference over the course of the season. No, you cannot tell me, we would not be a better team without J-Rich.
With J-Rich, I say we make the playoffs for sure (without major injuries). This team probably has less than a 33% of making the playoffs. We don't seem better than the Lakers or the Hornets and they're ahead of us now in the standings. The fact that there isn't a 9th guy that Nelson wants to play is a big weakness on this team. That would be rectified with J-Rich.
by San Francisco Slim on Nov 29, 2007 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hindsight is 20/20
That was the what the team looked like at the time of the trade.
Looking back how many of U would have predicted that we'd settle JazzyFoyle for what they accepted? I was here, and not 1 person called that bank shot.
Considering all that, and my personal belief that I doubt the dubs even try to re-sign barnes or azubuike if good ol' 23 was still on the roster, I could live with this trade. Hell, by the end of the year I might love this trade.
As a fan, what other options do I have? The trade is a done deal, I'm a die hard dubs fan, and JRIch plays for the 'cats.
Best duo since...
by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 29, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree about the buy-outs
No, it looks like we could afford the team we have and still keep J-Rich (and not Wright). It is next season when we would have had to make decisions. That's what the trade was about. That and the added flexibility that we gained.
by San Francisco Slim on Nov 29, 2007 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Those were below market buyouts...
Zorgon's favorite warrior lost money on that deal!
Best duo since...
by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 29, 2007 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You make a valid point
by San Francisco Slim on Nov 30, 2007 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We have bingo
I've gotten into trouble for saying this a bit more snarkily than you did, so I'm just quoting it. Wish we could sticky it to the top of the front page...
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 29, 2007 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no it wouldn't
You can't have him and not have the effect of his oversized contract.
Furthermore, I don't see how adding another 40% FG shooter (and crappy FT%) would make this team better, contract or not. He's redundant with what we have, and with him we wouldn't have what we'd have. Either way, there is no way to have the "benefit" of his "production" and the depth that wish for (the 9 man rotation).
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Nov 29, 2007 5:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What?
I don't know why you dislike Richardson so much. Would you agree that the Warriors played much better when he was healthy last season, as my previous example pointed out? BTW, from March on, his PER was over 19.00, including the playoffs. His PER, the previous two seasons was over 19.00. He's legitimately at that level.
Anyhow, it worked out that the Warriors could afford their present team AND Richardson, and still be around the luxury tax, because of the Foyle/Sarunas buy-outs. But Chris Burger brings up a good point, that it was an unknown that the buy-outs would work out the way they did, so it was difficult to anticipate the Warriors could have fielded such a team.
I stick to my point: the Warriors are a worse team right now, because of the J-Rich trade, but could be better in the future because of it. However, that is still an unknown.
by San Francisco Slim on Nov 30, 2007 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you!
Also I don't know how keeping J-Rich prevents us signing Pietrus, Barnes and Buike. We have bird rights on all of them.
The main point of why people are upset with the J-Rich trade is that we got rid of a good player, his teammates were not happy with the trade and with the money we saved we have not done anything to improve the team to take us to that next step. Croshere and Hudson aren't going to help us!
by tangel29 on Nov 30, 2007 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
If JRich were still here we most likely wouldn't have been able to retain some of our key bench players too.. mainly Barnes and Pietrus.
As for the luxury tax, these owners are business-minded and we shouldn't blame them for wanting to stay out of the luxury tax; it's heavy consequences are there for a reason. It's possible to build a contender under the luxury tax, so I don't blame Cohan if he caps himself at the luxury tax.
by jlagace on Nov 29, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That is the minimum for players w/their tenure
I have been opposed to the trade because IMO the Warriors would be better with JRich. And the players themselves seem to have been opposed to the trade (see Baron's comments about last year's team having more trust).
However, I will say that, to OZ's, SFreud's and other trade proponent's credit, the team is playing much better than I thought they were capable of without him. So, maybe I'm not as right as I thought I was.
by chacabuco on Nov 30, 2007 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In fairness
With each passing day, though -- each glimmer of potential from BWright, each so-so performance from JRich, each lesson from the Knicks in what happens when you overpay for "good" players -- I'm more convinced we did the right thing.
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 30, 2007 7:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i think KG would of ended up in
by djchuckdeez on Nov 29, 2007 12:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
hey
wait
the world is round right?
24 > 23
WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD
AIM: Jetforze
by OptionZero on Nov 29, 2007 12:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If the trade never happened
Yes, he's had some great seasons here but you can't keep bringing to the argument how he was nearly an All-star level for a season or two because what matter is NOW. And NOW is different from what was THEN. Coming into the season, he's not our only anchor and heart anymore. That role has been filled by Baron and Jax who is doing a great job at it. I don't see an argument here, because JRich is not even having a great season and as for the team, we're in the same position we were last year and this is without Brandan Wright. Right now, we're pretty much on the same level we are as last year - should be a playoff team, expected to get knocked out within the first two rounds. Having JRich in the lineup would not change that, he would just add to the probability of reaching that goal. But at what expense?? Well, that would be No BWright to look forward to and almost certain that No Azubuike and/or Monta at year's end.
Wake me up when JRich breakout for a monster season. I repeat, monster SEASON not GAME. Then, we can argue about it. But for now, how about we put this topic to rest.
by lightz0ut on Nov 29, 2007 3:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I feel like I have to repeat ..
Luxury tax or not, the Warriors wante FLEXIBILITY. That's been the case since the trade was made several months ago.
by pree on Nov 29, 2007 3:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree with that
I go back to the Antawn Jamison-Nich Van Exel trade. Actually, a very similar trade in that the main objective was to get out of a long expensive contract (Jamison's and J-Rich's). In both cases we received goods for which we had little immediate use for. In the Jamison trade it was a broken down guard, in this trade it's a raw rookie.
Also, arguably in both cases it made us worse in the short run. But eventually the Jamsion trade worked out, because we traded Van Exel for Dale Davis, whose expiring contract we used to acquire Baron.
I think that this trade is a better trade because of Wright's upside, but it is similar otherwise.
by San Francisco Slim on Nov 29, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think
We can't answer any of these questions now, but i'm a patient person, i can wait.
by kenntoe on Nov 29, 2007 4:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Not your money?
The idea that this is "Cohan's money" is absolutely ridiculous. Cohan makes his money off of you. He's in business and thriving because he makes money off of you.
I wouldn't cry over his spilt milke, but I'll certainly cry over yours. Unless, of course, you're a millionaire. In which case, wanna hook it up?
by pree on Nov 29, 2007 8:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
prices
There's not really much to suggest that ticket prices are elastic with team payroll though. Ticket prices go up when the market will bear the price. Owners cry that they had to do it because players make so much money, but the reality is that if people aren't willing to pay and attendance drops, raising prices doesn't raise revenue. They're crying to make it look like someone else (the greedy players!) are responsible for making a Great Time Out sap you for a few hundred bucks. They're crying so they don't look like the bad guy for doing what business do: make money. Ticket prices fall when attendance is down an they are trying to sell more tickets. Beer at Pac Bell cost $8 a cup not because Barry Zito got $126 million to be a soft-toss lefty, but because at $8 a pop, people still bought it and they are exploring that point at which the higher price cut into sales enough to bring down profits. [I'd have bought more beer over the last few years if they told me that half of every overpriced Bud Lite went directly to get a closer with the "fund for the prevention of late inning collapses". Were it so simple.]
My guess is that Cohan and his partners are trying to get every bit of revenue they can when payroll is up and when it's down. These are not altruistic people who, because they're already making X dollars in profit and have a fixed expense level, decide they aren't going to raise prices. If the arena is sold out consistently, prices will rise. If it isn't, they'll look for maximum returns figuring volume sold vs. price per unit.
I think when people ask Cohan to lose money (which now includes a partnership that owns a minority stake that, unless they're all millionaires who are also idiots, probably includes provisions that management has to work in their financial interests, else management be guilty of misconduct) what they really mean is that they want Cohan to treat the team like a toy that he wants to see win, and by virtue of that, a toy that they can play with too.
The Warriors aren't a toy. It's a business, good or bad for us, and business is about making money. And since it's not always possible to hand things down because raising prices can drive fans away thus diminishing revenue, unless he wants to pay millions upon millions for a toy (that we can vicariously play with too), salaries get fixed at a level where he doesn't lose money. As the sharing structure among NBA teams work, it appears that this level is right below the lux tax threshold as going above that results in costs spiraling upwards more rapidly and revenue sharing diminishing. I could go on about why this happened, but it's a departure from basketball.
by jae on Nov 30, 2007 8:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ooops.
by dj fuzzylogic on Nov 30, 2007 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh...
This is an interesting marketing concept, and one that should be more thoroughly studied. Would you really buy more beer if the funds went directly to signing a closer? What if you could decide where the cash went? What if they kept a running tally? Do you think people would get excited when it got down to the last few million dollars?
;-)
by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 30, 2007 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the warriors upped their prices
by dj fuzzylogic on Nov 30, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What does not being in the luxury tax matter?
by tangel29 on Nov 30, 2007 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Owner Economics
The luxury tax doesn't relate to ticket prices, which are based on the economic law of supply and demand, but to the owner's fiscal well being. If teams start losing money, there is obviously a point where teams can no longer function as a business and have to be sold.
by San Francisco Slim on Nov 30, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
First of all, being a good crafty GM of a successful franchise in this league does not go hand-in-hand with throwing absurd, over-priced contracts at just any player (especially a replaceable one) who has shown flashes of being above average and not give a damn about the salary cap nor the luxury tax. I'm sorry, the NBA has these things called rules and regulations. This would make for a nice little read for many of us: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm
This isn't the MLB, you can't just throw money around everywhere and excpect to not face the consequences of it.
You want to know why the Warriors were so bad for so long? It wasn't because of a "cheap owner", it was because of the recklessness and carefree big spending on the contract signings of Adonal Foyle, Troy Murphy, and Mike Dunleavy; contracts that still indirectly and directly financially cripple our ability (via the rules of the NBA salary cap!) to get more talent on our team to this very day.
The main purpose of my diary was to justify that Mullin had to do what he had to do in order to make sure that the recent years of horrible basketball (along with the financial bad financial decisions that caused them) don't ever happen again in the near future. You could see it on the sad look on his face when he was interviewed when the JRich trade went down; he wasn't happy, it wasn't something he wanted to do, it was something he had to do.
People should read the link I posted that discusses the salary cap and the luxury tax, think it over for a few minutes.. and if you still think JRich's salary dump was such a horrible basketball move than I suggest that you never ever even think about handling your own finances.
by jlagace on Nov 30, 2007 3:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
cheap for GMs
Where he was cheap and could, and should have done better was with the front office. He never went after that coach and/or GM who could have really made a difference. When West was available, he made no play. When Larry Brown was available, he made no play. The guys who could have made a difference weren't invited in, in favor of, well, Garry St. Jean. Mullin even appeared to be a low-ball move, using a fan favorite who I'm still not sold on--he's looked much better because Nellie seems to have decided to help out an old friend--wasn't a bold move. He was 'groomed' under St. Jean? Isn't that like going to Montel Williams for advice on haircare?
by jae on Nov 30, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHA
Oh no you didn't!
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 30, 2007 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mullin
Biedrins was an outstanding draft pick, as were Monta and Chris Taft (he looked very good before he went down), although 2nd round picks could be attributed to luck. It's difficult to tell about the Diogu, POB and Wright picks, at this point, although there might be some real clunkers in there.
Meanwhile, Mullin's pre-Nelson FA signings and contract extensions were horrible. And the Montgomery hire was inexcusable (although I heard that was Robert Rowell and Cohan - Mullin wanted Rod Higgins). All and all a mixed bag, but not bad, and getting better.
by San Francisco Slim on Nov 30, 2007 5:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
Nelson made Beidrins worthwhile. With all due respect to the stats that indicate AB was going to be a productive player before last August, there wasn't really that large a sample to extrapolate from and not a single person predicted it (just as no one would predict POS, er I mean POB was going to be productive this season - if he turns out to be). AB flowered under Nelson. Similarly, Baron was a disaster the full year under Monty, and struggled for previous coaches. He's thriving under Nelson, so is Monta - who is a 'tweener and may not thrive as much in another system. Jax&Harrington are benefiting from that system too. My point is giving Mullin credit for any of that is a stretch imo. Course, I've been calling for his head for years now ...
in Nelson we trust
by hardcore on Nov 30, 2007 10:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
predictions.
see if you don't trust my memory <http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/comments/2006/8/12/162517/557/2#2>
I wasn't alone in praise. Someone else predicted he would be an above average starting center.
I guess it's true. Not a single person. Two people, at least two, in the same thread.
by jae on Nov 30, 2007 10:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Luxury Tax
The luxury tax is not just there to keep teams from over-spending and making the playing field unfair.
I believe the another reason for the luxury tax is it's there to save certain GM's from their own stupidity. The Luxury Tax is like the barbed wire past the fence that is the Salary Cap that warns GM's "No you idiot you've gone too far, you're going to get yourself hurt!"
I'm quite sure the NBA doesn't want bad teams in the NBA, bad basketball = bad ratings = less money. But the Knicks are a prime example of what happens when you don't read the warning on the barbed wire fence. They're deep into the luxury tax territory, with no good young talent, not many attractive trading chips, and all they can ever hope to do is shuffler around their bad contracts (Steve Francis) for other teams' bad contracts (Zach Randolph) and hope for the best. They're stuck with what they have and it's their management's fault for the contracts they handed out. And they're going to pay for it until the horrible contracts they handed out expire.
by jlagace on Nov 30, 2007 4:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

by 



















