J-Rich Off to a Nice Start
by OaktownWarrior on Nov 4, 2007 7:37 PM PST
Email
PrintJason Richardson, forever in our hearts, is off to a nice start with the 2 and 0 Bobcats. In game 1, a pretty exciting win over the Bucks, he started with some nerves and finished strong:
The Charlotte Bobcats opened their season with an energetic 102-99 win over the Milwaukee Bucks. The game kicks off what is an important season for the team, as new acquisition Jason Richardson made his Bobcats debut after a draft night trade, and the young core of Gerald Wallace, Raymond Felton, and Emeka Okafor look to improve on last years 33-49 mark.. . .
Jason Richardson
Charlotte's newest high flyer made a splash in his regular season debut. 3rd on the team with 21 points, Richardson's points came almost entirely in the closely contested 4th quarter. His shooting percentages were not spectacular (8-19), but his performance from three (3-5) was encouraging. Richardson also helped out on defense, adding 6 rebounds and 3 steals.
Jason's effect on the game is not entirely visible from the box scores alone. 21 points is certainly a decent game, and the fact that most of those points came at clutch times was even better. Jason also looked very energetic, and was vocal throughout the game. Richardson showed potential to become a fan favorite, diving and sliding for loose balls, getting crucial steals, and even getting the crowd pumped up during Bucks free throws.
With questions about the acquisition of Richardson rampant this offseason, Jason needs to have a solid opening half of the year to appease the Bobcats faithful. While many in the Charlotte area were excited to finally shed the "cheap" label by landing a big money player, there were those that questioned the prudence of adding such a one dimensional scorer at the cost of a talented young draft pick. Like him or not, Richardson undeniably fills a glaring need for perimeter scoring, and if he continues to bring the defensive intensity the Bobcats may have made an excellent pickup.
It looks like Game 2 went even better:
Jason Richardson scored a game-high 29 points, including six three-pointers, as the Charlotte Bobcats held off a furious rally to beat the Miami Heat, 90-88, at American Airlines Arena.. . .
Richardson dunked, Felton had a layup, and Richardson nailed a three from the right corner with 4:09 left in the third quarter. That made it a 73-59 Bobcats lead, and Miami called a timeout to regroup.
I appreciate the analysis of the GSOM OGs who are noticing how the season develops without pushing the Panic Button. In fact, after the bandwaggoning that was happening at the end of last season, we have a really nice dialogue going here (thanks OZ). That said, it has to pull your heart a bit to see J-Rich doing so well, no?
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
93 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
It makes me more happy than kills me
Now dunleavy doing so well kills me. I want to die thinking about him doing this the whole season.
You'll be back.
by WHYarenasWHY on Nov 4, 2007 8:07 PM PST reply actions
Good for him!
You call me ancient, I say "oldguysrule"
good for him
Azubuike is not replacing JRich
On the other hand, Dunleavy could lead the league in scoring and I'd still be glad we dumped him.
thank you
by warriorfan4life on Nov 4, 2007 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
lol.
The season's started, so I went back to Albert.
by coma @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 4, 2007 11:37 PM PST up reply actions
jrich
If they want to state their opinion, they can do so here however they want.
Neither you nor I can "argue" any them into changing their mind.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 4, 2007 11:41 PM PST up reply actions
lulz
The season's started, so I went back to Albert.
by coma @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 4, 2007 11:57 PM PST up reply actions
How was that a genius trade?
If the Dubs took JR and traded him for a forward- even a small forward upgrade- that could step in right now it would be a good, solid practical trade. But they didn't. Heck I would've seen the benefit of bringing in Drew Gooden for JR.
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 5, 2007 8:11 AM PST up reply actions
WORD
This team will struggle to make the pieces fit. And what's worse, when BD opts out of his last year to play in LA after a frustrating '07/08, and then Nellie retires, the wheels will come off and the Dubs will have another "rebuilding project" on their hands. GENIUS!
maybe
of course its just a theory until all the main warrior players are on the court and hitting their stride.
Is this a team a 50 win team? Will it go deep in the playoffs? Can they hang with the superpowers in the West?
No. No. No.
By trading J-Rich, the warriors did indeed open the door to rebuilding mode.
I guarantee, by the deadline if the warriors are already out of the playoff hunt, Baron and Al will be finding different homes.
"rebuilding"
i'm tired of "rebuilding"
is latrell sprewell gonna have to choke a b*tch?
by Spree4Threee on Nov 5, 2007 5:21 PM PST up reply actions
the team w/ jrich
i don't know if you noticed but a lot of teams had already shut it down. teams out of the race start playing their youngsters and teams in the race start resting starters and players w/ minor injuries.
by the evil monkey on Nov 5, 2007 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
Come on now....
Greatest of the playoff drought era, okay sure, but ever? Come on.
Nate Thurmond (holler at me after "Big J Rich's BBQ" opens in the Bay!)
Rick Barry (underhand free throws and STILL out shot almost our entire squad % wise)
Sleepy Floyd
Chris Mullin
Tim Hardaway
Mitch Richmond (bonus points since I'm from Richmond born on 23rd street)
Was it J-Rich's veteran leadership that made us contenders? No it was the trades for Baron and Al and Stephen Jackson. Also, who was the hot head that punked Okur at the end of game 4 in the playoffs? J Rich was a true Warrior and gave his heart and soul to the team but Baron almost single handedly carried us through the Mavericks series.
I'll give you that dealing JRich may have been a bad move for the 2007-08 season but when you look at this deal in 2-3 years I think it will make more sense. I'm a firm believer in trading a guy a year early instead of waiting till his value drops, especially when we're not realistic contenders for an NBA title with any move we could have made for J-Rich this year unless we could have landed (Duncan or somebody like Dwight Howard who could stop him).
Let's see the stat lines when JRich plays some Western conference teams! And ideally with one of the top 3 Bobcats players out to make the stat lines even.
What?
We are supposed to stop looking 2-3yrs down the line and win now. Trade J-Rich if you must, but not for a rookie who may or may not pan out.
And why we had to send a 2nd rounder as well with J-Rich baffles me.
Enjoy Bobcats!
Lets hope Jax comes back to give the warriors their 2nd scoring option and another good defender. Then we may see a glimpse of last year.
Game recap
J Rich was awesome. Obviously his shot was on (he finished 10-16, but one miss was a half-court shot at the buzzer of the shot clock on a broken play and another was a circus 180 backwards flip shot where he thought he had been fouled), but it was much more than that. On D he was guarding Udonis Haslem for most of the fourth quarter, and he boxed out and boarded extremely well against the big guy. On the game-deciding play - Heat down 2 and less than 15 seconds left - J Rich guarded the Heat's best player, Ricky Davis, who first went for the shot then ended up turning it over with a bad pass. And as you could tell from the game 1 quote, he's hustling just as hard as he always did with the Warriors. In fact, with Raymond Felton and Gerald Wallace playing the same way, the Bobcats are a very entertaining team to watch. Every Gerald Wallace drive seems like a potential season-ending injury, but he just keeps on getting up and doing it again.
J Rich's game wasn't perfect. He turned it over a few times in the fourth quarter with some shaky ball-handling as the Bobcats blew a double-digit fourth quarter lead. But he had a great overall game and it was exciting watching him play well. I'll definitely try to catch as many Bobcat games as possible, especially when it's not a gameday for the Warriors.
50 Point Games
Hopefully he brings the Bobcats to the playoffs and makes the All-Star team as well!
by Five Ten Entertainment on Nov 5, 2007 12:54 AM PST reply actions
Buke vs J Rich
Can I kick it?
by tadams1080 on Nov 5, 2007 5:53 AM PST reply actions
jrich is a good player
though to keep it in perspective, for whatever reason, he's the only player on the entire bobcats team to have a negative +/- overall.
Kaz vs JRich
BD
Kaz
JRich
Al
Andris
I'd venture to say that that starting 5 would not be 0 and 3 right now. Haha maybe 1 and 2 since the Jazz own the Warriors, but still.
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 5, 2007 8:07 AM PST reply actions
Mullin's Mind
The warriors could have been a very good team this year, had they kept JRich. But even with #23, we'd need the bounces to go our way against Houston, Utah, and Denver (and obviously San Antonio and PHX).
As many have stated in the media and on GSoM, you cannot survive in the NBA by trying to be just a good team. Wether you build for the present or future, it should be with a championship in mind, and the TPE and B Wright give the warriors the option to either make a trade to bring in an all-star PF, or start looking forward to the next few years.
With "long-suffering" fans, its not clear wether "normal" logic should be followed; it would have been nice to have another fun year even if it did end with an entertaining 1st round exit... we'll never know now.
Trades
Are we going to use this diary as a rational debate about whether the trade was a good idea or not; or are we going to use this a diary to let people vent about their feelings?
I'm down for either, just let me know.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 9:53 AM PST reply actions
No need to be so condescending
There's two separate topics here:
- Was JRich tradable?
- What the JRich for Brandan Wright trade a good deal?
And for the record I would've traded Monta before JRich in a heartbeat- and I think they were trying to trade both. The Bobcats bit on JR and that's what went down. I'm sure Cohan was happy about saving the dough too.
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 5, 2007 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
time
There are two types of general managers:
- Someone that would not have traded Richardson because they were either too stubborn or too scared to admit that the Warriors had borderline playoff talent for '08.
- Someone that would risk trading Richardson as a stepping stone for Garnett and/or wholesales changes to make the team significantly better.
Fortunately, that is not reality, at least not in the grand scheme.
Richardson was traded for a $10M trade exception and the #8 pick. On those terms, I applaud Mullin. There are dozens of GMs that wouldn't have had the stones to do it, and THOSE are the GMs I laugh at.
The difference is that I separate the philosophy behind the trade and the execution of the rest of the moves:
- I would not have kept the trade exception. I would have traded for a large expiring contract, which is a more liquid asset than a TPE since it can be combined in a larger trade. That's mistake #1.
- I would have taken Joakim Noah. Reports say we were after Al Thornton, that might have been a solid pick as well. Wright might be great, but not now. The goal should have been closer to winning "now", which meant drafting someone closer to producing "now".
- I would not have signed Troy Hudson. I would have squeezed Indy harder for Darryl Armstrong or kept Jaskivicius (an expiring) longer.
Again, their "venting" about the departure of their favorite player...fine, I got no problem with that.
But don't confuse sadness over your favorite player leaving with what's best for the team.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Well
Look if you're going to keep harping on how it was such a great "basketball move" rather than just a salary dump, explain how on the court this season that was a good trade. JR was in fact tradable and replaceable (though he's a top 7 SG in my book), but that doesn't mean that THIS trade was a good one. It doesn't look like it will help the Warriors on the court this season.
If you want to talk basketball, my man Adam Lauridsen made a good case for why JRich was so important on the court last season:
http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/warriors/2007/10/04/managing-minutes-a-quick-flashback/
He pretty much led the team in minutes down the stretch last season and during his 20-6-4 run in springtime I thought he was playing the best ball of his career. His D really stepped up (aside from that last game in the Jazz series).
Look you need to acknowledge that other people can have good ideas even if you don't agree with them and stop trying to paint other people's ideas as just purely emotional. Smart people can disagree... although I have no idea what that line has to do with us! Haha
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 5, 2007 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
this season?
There's nothing Richardson would have done against the Jazz- they were 12/16 from 3P that game, no one could have beaten them. Against the Clippers, who knows. On opening night...well, we didn't beat the Jazz in the playoffs last year WITH J-Rich, I find it difficult to believe the opener would have turned out differently just because he were still around. Richardson's loss thus far, has had little measurable impact on an incredibly small sample of games. Thats about as inconclusive as you can get.
Smart people can have ideas I don't agree with. I disagree with pree about all manner of things; I disagree about JAE on the impact of Al Harrington, those are just two examples of smart people who I can disagree with no problem.
Thus far, however, I haven't heard any arguments that haven't been based on feelings.
Three games into the season, we've lost 3 games in which Baron Davis and Monta Ellis could not shoot at all and 3 games in which our team defense was atrocious.
Given that Richardson is not a defensive stalwart himself and has no impact on how Baron and Ellis themselves shoot...I struggle to see how anyone has any rational basis to stand on when saying that "the trade" is why we're 0-3 or why it's "bad".
I'll say it again:
The reasoning behind the trade was fine.
The follow-up moves were wrong.
I'm dubious as to the credibility of anyone attacking the trade now because I've seen it before. When Jamison was traded, the exact same things were said: he was a leader, he meant so much to us, he's such a great guy, he left his heart on the court, etc, etc.
Yet in the big picture, Jamison begat Van Exel who begat Dale Davis who began Baron Davis. Result? No one cares about Jamison anymore.
Similarly, there is, once again, a huge fuss about Richardson being dealt, with terms like "cheap" being thrown around recklessly.
History is a pendulum, it swings back and forth. I'm not surprised at what I'm seeing; I've repeatedly said people can think or feel whatever they want.
You've made your feelings about the trade clear, and that's fine.
I have made mine clear as well. I suppose neither of us is going to change our respective positions, so we'll just let them lie as they are and see which one bears itself out to be correct over time.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
i think this
- Jrich's departure for a TPE and the #8 pick is a salary dump and a step towards rebuilding.
- Noah or Thorton would've been the logical choice for a borderline playoff team. Not a project PF. An odd selection wouldn't you say?
- Failing to use the TPE for depth at PF, C is a mistake. No Artest? What about Kurt Thomas? He would've helped against Utah. Plus the first rounders would have been nice.
- Baron has not been re-signed. Some say the warriors are frugal. ahhh a keen front. Options come the Feb. deadline.
- Nellie trying to groom Monta as the PG of the future. umm...what about Baron, if we're committed to re-signing him, then what is the need to have Monta groomed as a pg? He'd be much better suited for the bench as a scoring super-sub. interesting...
Let's face it, Nellie and Mully aren't complete fools. They know the ceiling this team has. Without a second consistent scorer, playmaker, this team will struggle and Baron will be worn down. By trading Jrich we have forfitted this season IMO, and built for the future with BWright, Belinelli, and AB. Monta is still a question mark.
I believe, by trading Jrich and not getting a NBA ready rookie, The warriors have put one foot in the door to rebuilding. They are keeping their contracts short to open up money and roster space. Keeping Baron's contract short makes him tradable come deadline. Al is certainly still an asset. I believe the only guy we will re-sign for certain is AB. Baron, if the warriors struggle, will proe to the Mully and Nellie that this team will continue to struggle and force Mully to pull the trigger on dealing Baron. Baron can still net us some young talent and picks.
The conspiracy machine will continue to roll on and gain steam.
Salary Dump
I agree that it would have made more sense to pick up a player that would help us now but when you get a high pick in a loaded lottery I can understand the tempation to draft "the next KG" or "the next jordan" over the less sexy but more effective Noah.
Let's not forget the broader scope of our financial situation at the time. We had money locked up in Baron, JRich, Jax, AL, and the thought to be unmovable unbuy-outable Foyle. We also had the MIP, one of the more promising young centers in the league, and maybe one of the leagues best kept secrets in Kaz.
If your priorities are to hold on to Beans and Ellis without going into the luxery tax the only guy on the roster who was movable and somewhat replaceable was JRich. Now getting someone to take on his entire contract and give us a lottery pick was about as good an offer as you can ask for.
I do agree with OZ however that it would have made more sense to turn the TPE into a useful player with an expiring contract but they were either unable or unwilling to do so.
Looking at the roster as it is now, without JRich's salary and with Foyle accepting the nice buy-out, I'm still stressing about how we are going to keep all our guys next year without ending up in the Lux tax. If we still had JRich on the roster we may have been forced to dump him midseason for a useless player with an expiring contract and give up a pick in the process.
Overall I don't think having JRich on the roster would make us that much better this year (better yes, but not by much IMO). We would, however, be in a financial mess, and if we didn't have great start there may have been a mandate from ownership to dump salary to get under the Lux threshold next season. That's not a good position to be in as a GM and Mullin did well to avoid that scenario IMO.
.
What about spree?
by goldenberto on Nov 5, 2007 10:07 AM PST reply actions
Same Ole JRich
ok
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 10:14 AM PST reply actions
Breath In, Breath Out...
Laughing
I do laugh at the memory of hearing these same sentiments after the Jamison trade.
No one harbors those feelings anymore.
I probably shouldn't say anymore, I might get flamed.
BRING BACK JRICH!
WE WOULD BE THREE AND OH WITH HIM!
COHAN IS CHEAP!
MULLIN SUCKS!
um what else
BRANDAN WRIGHT SUCKS!
BIEDRINS IS OVERRATED!
TRADE FOR GARNETT!
wait. scratch that last
TRADE FOR KOBE!
TRADE FOR LEBRON!
TRADE FOR DAVID STERN!
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 10:33 AM PST reply actions
The big difference being
But the proof is in the pudding. We'll take up this conversation again on April 5th.
legitimate opinion
The opinions here are rooted solely on emotion on feeling. That makes them inherently "legitimate", since I would never argue that your emotions are wrong.
Now, if you want to talk about how to actually analyze the trade in basketball terms...I can do that.
Here is the question:
Do you accept the possibility that the trade was good? I can explain why, but if you're not even open to hearing about it, you can save us both some time.
If you don't want to hear it, no biggie.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
Note
Not "because of" or "on the shoulders of" or "largely due to the efforts of".
Simply, "with".
We also made the playoffs with Jaskivicius, but there's no diary about anyone venting their feelings about him.
Richardson was a cog in our playoff team last year. A beloved cog, but not an irreplaceable one.
I have said before and continually maintain that the amount of love Richardson gets is disproportionate to his actual production.
You can like a player all you want, but don't bring your feelings into any rational analysis about basketball.
There are feelings and there is logic. Don't mix the two up.
The trade, emotionally, might have been horrible. Fine, thats on you. It's personal, no one can dissuade you.
The trade, purely in basketball terms, was fine. Thats what people refuse to acknowledge.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
U might wanna call it a day, OZ
You MIGHT wanna pace yourself.
THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!
by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 5, 2007 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Of course I'm willing to hear the reasons
However, given all of the pain we have been through the last 12 years, and given that this makes the team worse in the short run (and thus increasing the likelihood of an implosion and a BD and Nellie departure in the summer), I would have voted for another fun season, playoff appearance and probably early departure. That's all.
And there's nothing wrong with that view
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 5, 2007 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Guarantees
He was here for years and we only went to the playoff once.
There's no correlation between "richardson" and "playoffs".
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
say more
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
asdf
You're absolutely right
Twenty-one regular season games. That's all that squad had the chance to put together. After making history, they were dismantled.
Maybe that makes good traditional NBA GM logic, but in the context of the Unstoppable Baby 2007 Golden State Warriors, not so much.
try thinking of the trade like this
-trade gives Kelenna Azuibuke an opportunity to play starter minutes: Azuibuke increases his value
So the trade gives us a net increase in value in our assets while giving us increased financial flexibility.
Not sure about that logic
How is that equal value? JR 20-6-4 guy when healthy down the stretch last season. So far the #8 pick and the TPE have done nothing for the Warriors this season and there isn't any indication that it will with BWright probably going to the DLeague. It's still to early to tell though, but as of right now it's not equal.
I like Kaz a ton, so much so that he was my pick for MIP this season. But keeping JRich doesn't mean Kelenna couldn't be a starter or play big minutes especially with Stephen Jackson out.
If the Warriors had JRich this season I think they'd be 1-2 instead of 0-3-- the Jazz are still going to kick their butts with or without JR. BUT the Warriors would be a much better team right now. This just isn't a very good team and it's only going to get worse once the injuries kick in- imagine how bad this team will be once it has to deal with the annual BD injury.
If the Warriors traded JR for a rebounder they might even be better. Hopefully the Warriors use that trade exception or else it's going to be a real dogfight just to finish 8th or even 9th.
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 5, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
sample sizes
Richardson is not a 20-6-4 guy, he's never done that over a full season. Using that as a basis to say thats what we're missing now is ridiculous- the ENTIRE SQUAD was playing out of their minds during the last quarter of the season.
Who really thinks we would have maintained that 16-5 stretch over the course of 82 games? We're really the Magic Lakers or Bird Celtics? Really?
You said yourself we might be 1-2 instead of 0-3...how does that flow with your next assertion that we're a better team? Because we would have possibly been one game better over a 3 game stretch? And now there's hypothical injuries stacking up that haven't even happened yet?
What if one of the future injuries were to Richardson? Is that out of the realm of the possibility given that he's already missed significant time before due to injury?
When the annual Baron injury hits, we'll have the TPE and other assets to make some moves. This would have been worse with Richardson, not better. Let's not conveniently forget that Wright and Croshere are out with back injuries and Jack is still suspended.
We're past the slippery slope and into the muddy waters of speculation now.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
Oh boy
Saying JR could put up 20-6-4 in Nellie's system with this crew over a full season isn't too far fetched. The previous year under Monty's slower offense with less possessions he was at 23.2ppg, 5.8 rpg, and 3.1 apg. I believe he has that capability and could've put that up this season, but that's just my projection.
There's a difference between a good team which the Warriors were at the end of last season that just got abused by a bad matchup against the Jazz and this year's team which I believe is just bad right now getting abused by a Jazz team- that was my point.
Again if they use the TPE for a near all star who blends in the trade was brilliant- I don't think anyone can disagree.
As far as the other assets I don't see how not making that particular trade or even making a better trade not just to save Cohan some bucks preclude having those same assets for trade- Monta, Andris, POB, MP2, etc.
Look I understand you just didn't like JRich's game, his contract, and you were a big fan of the trade. That's fine. My main issue is the way you've bullying people with opposing viewpoints and posing your takes as end-all facts that invalidate other's- that's just wrong and not how we do it here.
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 5, 2007 1:31 PM PST up reply actions
what bullying?
J-rich put up 23/5.8/3.1 on a team with Fisher, Murphy, Dunleavy, and Foyle- in a year when Baron was out or pouting. I do not believe he could do it on a squad with superior offensive weapons (Jack, Harrington, Ellis, Biedrins, Buike, etc).
Dunleavy is playing like Bird the first 3 games; Diogu is playing like Elton Brand. If we can dismiss those performances so easily, we should be able to put Richardson's "great start" in context. He's been given a ton of shots on a bad offensive squad, and one of those nites he's been spectacular from 3P range.
There's a difference between putting up near-star numbers on a crummy team and being a good fit for an uptempo team like the Warriors. I understand why there's loyalty for Richardson- he played hard and performed better than the rest of our crummy Warrior squads over the years.
Now that we have talent, however, "fit" matters...and I firmly believe he does not fit.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
bullying = air time
by OaktownWarrior on Nov 5, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions
whaaat
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 6:47 PM PST up reply actions
Amen...
by UweBlab on Nov 6, 2007 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
Haha
He was doing that long before he was the moderator. =P
Seriously though his opinions, while loud and outspoken, have nothing to do with his moderating.
.
Yes...
He's like our O-Line though... a thankless job that needs to be done. And for that I thank him.
by UweBlab on Nov 7, 2007 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
re
If Kelenna were able to produce 95% of J Rich's production, in my opinion we stil benefitted from the trade because we still have most of our old production plus the #8 pick, the TPE, and increased financial flexibility.
We can keep moving his production down (90%...85%...) until we're at a point that it becomes a bad trade for us. Based on watching him play in the few games where he's had significant minutes, I feel like Kelenna will be way above the minimum he has to produce to make this a good trade for us. We will see.
well said
many of us are a long way off from being "over" j-rich, and there is nothing rational thinking will do to change that.
"breaking up is hard to dooo..."
by OaktownWarrior on Nov 6, 2007 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
ya I understand
It would've been nice if we could've got an NBA-ready big for him though...
Let's establish an Objective Test
But, for the sake of putting an end to this subjective discussion, let's submit the trade to an objective test. Something that would allow us to evaluate the test on a easily definable basis.
Clearly the W's wouldn't have continued on their 16-5 pace, but, could you acknowledge that, with that same roster, and all of the momentum from last year, and all of the roles clearly defined, the W's were at LEAST going to the playoffs this year? Even if as an #8 seed? In my mind, that's pretty much a given. I will, in turn, acknowledge that the W's were never going to win a championship with that roster.
So the test is:
- If the Warriors go to the NBA finals in the next 5 years, it was a genius trade.
- If the Warriors fail to make the playoffs in each of the next 3 years, it was a disaster.
partially
The Lakers, Hornets, and Grizzlies (possibly even the Clips) would all have been equal to us for the 7th and 8th seeds.
To me, keeping Richardson would have gained us nothing this year - Jack would still be out 7 games to suspension, Monta still wouldn't be a point guard, and Baron would still have been 2 for infinity from 3P range.
As for your parameters, its still flawed. If we make a finals appearance, sure, genius.
But there's no guarantee we would make the playoffs the next 3 years with Richardson- in fact, keeping Richardson in the long run makes us worse, since his salary escalates. Biedrins and Ellis would be gone and we would have no Wright and no money to find replacements. Hello Lorenzen Wright as your scrapheap starting center!
I'll take financial flexibility, trade assets, and Azubuike over Richardson every single day of the week. Every. Single. Day.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 1:32 PM PST up reply actions
Ok, so now your position is illogical
To say that a team that went 16-5 + playoff history would fail to make the playoffs the next year is completely illogical. Now you're the one not discussing facts and logic, but arguing hypothesis and emotion. Nice talking to you.
what?
The Dallas Mavericks won SIXTY SEVEN GAMES (not a mere 16-5 stretch) and got beat in the first round.
There's nothing illogical at all about saying we were not guaranteed to make the playoffs.
I wish I could say it was nice talking to you.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
Another Objective Measure
Haha I kid, I kid.
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 5, 2007 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
im a lil late
Just wanted to say i dont think we can even discuss the value of the JRICH trade until either the trade deadline has passed or once the season has ended. We would need to see if we end up moving the TPE exception by the deadline, and if nothing happens, then we need to analyze what couldve mightve wouldve happened if we had JRICH instead of the salary cap and Wright. Wright hasnt played, hes hurt, and you never know Jrich mightve been hurt if he was here so you cant really comment on anything yet. Also, were talking about 3 games so far. 3 games without Jackson. Lets wait to see how everything pans out before we jump to conclusions
Also, i dont think that we wouldve beaten the Clips with Jrich, but even if someone believes that we could, there is no way to prove it one way or another. What we can prove however, is that with Jrich on the court, either monta or buike wouldve been off at one point or another. I think that with baron taking i believe 9 threes, and jrich taking what, 11 threes the other night, we could just as easily lost by MORE points with Jrich simply because shooting is contagious and when you gotta bunch of guys who wont stop pulling the trigger it can kill you, and it can save you. So ya, i could picture it going either way, and so you cant really say much about that imo. I think that its really easy to just claim a win against the clips if Jrich was here simply because i think i speak for everyone when i say if we were to play them again, none of us would picture losing again. I mean honestly, on any given night we can beat them without jackson. Jrich or no jrich, i dont think it changes much.
Oh yeah, and i think the level of analysis or contributions being made in this thread is awesome, but it all kinda seemed like a fight? Just wanted to point out that in no way am i trying to negatively argue with anyone. I just wanted to post a comment based on 50+ responses from gsomers
That's because
Props to GSoM
As far as the negativity goes, yeah, it does kinda sound like a fight sometimes. As with anything when you discuss something you are passionate about (especially a beloved local sports icon) things can get heated and feel more personal than they really are.
Also a lot of people here take offense to OZ's tone. Honestly it used to bother me, but for some reason it doesn't anymore. The fact is the guy knows his stuff and when he is proven wrong he will admit to it and move on (which is something I respect). I think people just need to remember that they are debating with someone who is going to school to learn how to argue a case (among other things). You've got to be pretty intense to do that.
Anyway I just wanted to say that this is a pretty great place for W's fans to come and hash out all this stuff in a (mostly) friendly environment. Even if it gets heated and OZ talks down to you =P.
.
school
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
i like the way you put it olympicmike
And i also agree about OZ. he means no harm, but hes used to making arguments, and to make a good argument you need a convincing tone. sometimes through this 5th wall (or whatever they call that stuff when your communicating via the internet) things can be misinterpreted because ur not face to face. i wouldnt want this tone to change, just as long as nobody misinterprets the analysis as a negative arguing type of fight
Sleepy
Either way I propose a return of mega-posting Sleepy. Job be damned.
.
Yup
Now I'm back in Tokyo for a month packing stuff up for the move. The "mega-posting Sleepy" may be a thing of the past, but even if I had the time, I'd hesitate to make any rash judgments, negative or positive, based on three regular-season games. As a general rule, you can pencil me in on the side of Option Zero in almost any debate, though on the JRich issue I think Uncle Cliffy put it almost perfectly (except for the misspelling of "hare-brained").
Channeling the old Sleepy: I'm still not convinced we couldn't have snagged KG if we had (a) thrown in Biedrins (yeah, I was basically "ABB," but willing to part with AB if absolutely necessary); and (b) better timed the trade with Charlotte to get Minnesota the player they wanted. I still think there was some major bunglage that went down. And I'm 100% convinced that what Ainge did is better than waiting around for the "future" to materialize. How Many Celtics fans do you think actually miss Jefferson, Gomes, and Gerald Green?
Baron
Azubuike
Jackson
Harrington
Garnett
Sigh...
Congrats...
Also, knowing how well Kaz has been playing, that line-up almost makes me cry... or puke, I'm not sure which.
.
asdf
by the evil monkey on Nov 7, 2007 7:42 PM PST up reply actions
I agree, so Let myself introduce...myself
I've read GSOM for about 6 months now. I've only posted a few times. Might as well jump in.
I consider myself a Warriors outsider. I moved to the Bay Area in 2001. Let's just say that Jim Barnett's analysis dragged me in. Anyway, I was always wondering how a team could be perennially bad, so I watched a lot of W's games. And like anything, over time, you grow attached, as you get to know the team better. I admitted my fandom in 2004, and I swear on my life that after the debacle at Washington last season I said to my buddy, "Well, I still think they can make the playoffs." And the next evening, since I had no TV in my new apartment, I went alone to the local sports bar, and stared in utter astonishment as the W's ripped up the Pistons. I was the only person in the bar that night. Then I knew. So, a few points.
First, the general community here is not negative. For the most part, they are (like someone else said) passionate, wildly creative, and fairly well informed. A few wild hair-brained trade ideas, but still fun.
Second, I do believe the J-Rich trade was an ill-conceived idea. The simple business concept of acquiring a highly coveted product, and then developing and investing resources into that product and then turning around and selling somewhere between low in the short term and medium to high in the long term is flawed. And the basketball notion of trading a proven commodity for an unproven talent is like playing the lottery, a couple of huge notable winners and a lot of losers. J-Rich clearly had a bad season because of injury, but he would only have increased in trade value, as the number of years and dollars on his contract gradually decreased (a certainty), and as Jason proved to the rest of the league that he was still a legitimate scorer and rebounder as well as an improving defender (fairly likely). Some have mentioned the lack of turning the TPE into a proven player is a mistake. I agree. But a much larger mistake was not properly scouting the available talent in a deep, diverse draft. OZ loves Noah, and he would have addressed many short-term problems. But the W's banked on Wright being more attractive on the open market, and then made no trades. Wright will be a good player, but when and for whom?
Third, no one has brought up Baron in all of this. I'm not sure if there's been another diary on this subject, but doesn't he just HATE the trade? They asked him on opening night how the team would respond, and it looked for one moment that he was going to scream out. But he didn't. He's matured. There's no doubt that Baron often looked for Richardson to lead the team, even for stretches of games. And who else on the W's could penetrate, draw the D, and kick to Baron for the open 3? All of Baron's jumpers are coming off the dribble.
Fourth, just for full disclosure, one of my flaws when discussing and analyzing the NBA is I tend to get seduced by game-changers, guys who have a turbo gear when no one else does. I sometimes neglect guys who just get it done. And I write overly long sentences.
Fifth, thanks for reading. I'll be the guy with the random "I love the AB-POB 4/5 combo but I wanted Al at the 3," "Did Nellie fall asleep in the 2nd quarter?" or "I don't care what happened before 2000" comments.
Oh, I have tough skin and enjoy a good argum....er, discussion.
Go Dubs!
i still maintain...
hahahaha.
Good
Having said that, I'd like to point out a couple things:
- Richardsons contract and years...he was on an escalating salary. His pay per year would have increased over time, not decrease. While the years remaining would decrease, he would have eaten up a larger and larger percentage of the payroll. As for whether he would ever improve as a defender...that is up in the air.
- Baron's feelings on the trade. Immediately after the trade, he said he understood it as a business decision. Certainly, on a personal level he might have felt what alot of others felt (disappointment, sadness), but after wards he hasn't said any openly negative comments. Any further conclusions would be speculation, unless there are quotes or interviews that can show otherwise...or if u talked to him =P
- Baron looked to Richardson to lead? I disagree. His sidekicks were Al Harrington and Stephen Jackson, who each had more tenure in the NBA (Jack has a ring) than Richardson.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 8:20 PM PST up reply actions
JRich as leader
Also I will go ahead and speculate that Baron may have let a healthy "Hell Naw!" out when he heard about the JRich trade.
.
naw
It shoulda been DOMINIC MCGUIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 5, 2007 8:54 PM PST up reply actions
Haha
.
meta = good
we've got many themes developing for the year
- bandwagon-jumping
- young men slumping (Ellis, Biedrins)
- super young slow developing (POB, Belli)
- B-Davis persevering
- Steve Jax late-starting
- J-Rich watching
- Barnes-disappearing
- TMNT developing
- trade exception-hawking
- Jazz-fearing
- OZ-bashing
- Sleepy-loving
- and many more!
by OaktownWarrior on Nov 5, 2007 8:47 PM PST up reply actions
also
BTW, ya, more diaries should be like this one. Maybe not like hashing out exactly what we should and shouldnt do, but more in the direction of friendly informative analysis. Its what i come to the site for.
And P.S. that 49ergiantwarrior was incredibly annoying and im glad he got tired of posting 1800 diaries a day. Either that or someone kicked him out but for whatever reason im glad.
49ergiantwarrior may be here undercover...
THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!
by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 5, 2007 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
what a lot of GM we have here
by goldenberto on Nov 5, 2007 11:05 PM PST reply actions
hey
1)you guys make way too big a deal of OZ's style. Hes arguing and so should you. Present your argument and let the public decide. just whatever you do, dont make fun of franco finn.
2) about the actual subject. OZ is what we call a JRICH hater. Most dubs fans are enamored, he is not. He is the opposite of all the cats who show love for JRICH. Kawakami is a hater too, and they are both wrong about him.
Huge Jrich fan here. Huge. im super emo, and im not fact based at all. completely subjective here.
food for thought tho friends.
Jrich is a talented player. Anyone disagree?
Could we use that talent right now?
wish i could have gotten in sooner...Atma directing his occasional negative energy to someone else BUT ME? cool. OZ taking on the websites creator? someone call GTOE! Franco my man you here??
anyways, all love here from jrizzle
also, its only 4 games. we'll bounce back.
go dubs
i love it
I respect that. I can acknowledge that. I can work with that.
You also said that Jrich is a talented player.
I respect that as well, I acknowledge it, and heck, I agree. I never said he wasn't productive with the Warriors. Just that the trade was what needed to be done and that he was replacable.
If only everyone were like jrizzle.
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 7, 2007 8:38 PM PST up reply actions
lol
i don't know if am ready to challenge such a controversial statement.
there were some good times over here, though. i am thinking that we are doomed to a slow start (our schedule looks tough for a little while longer), but hopefully the guys will rally, especially when steve jax comes back.
by OaktownWarrior on Nov 7, 2007 8:41 PM PST up reply actions
err
this is the quote of yours that no one can disagree with (though it looks like OZ may try):
Could we use that talent right now?
it's still gonna be a great year.
by OaktownWarrior on Nov 7, 2007 8:44 PM PST up reply actions
apologies
by OaktownWarrior on Nov 7, 2007 8:46 PM PST up reply actions
huh?
As for the second half...
Questions? Complaints?
(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)
by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 7, 2007 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
"UNSTOPPABLE BABY!"
Golden State Warriors rookie Marc Jackson to the Mavericks' bench, after hitting a lay-up during a 29-point loss (2000)
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
Most Commented
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
