RECAP: Warriors 104, Cavaliers 108 - Ugh

by Fantasy Junkie on Nov 7, 2007 1:00 AM PST in Recaps Comment 83 comments

Ugh. Not again.

It was just one of those games that the Warriors had to play catch up nearly the entire game. They were down 10 in the first and climbed back to within 6 at the end of the quarter. They were down 7 in the 2nd quarter but fought back to get it tied at the half even taking a 1 point lead at one point. In the 3rd quarter, they were down 10 with 3:41 to play and ended the quarter up 1 on a big 3 by Monta. Then in the 4th, the Warriors led for most of the quarter but could never pull away. The lead never got to more than 4 and the Cavs always seemed to have an answer to any bucket the Warriors scored. Sitting there watching the game, I just never felt the Warriors were in control of the game. It was as if the Cavs were just waiting, biding their time and keeping the game close until they were ready to finish off the Warriors. And they did that with a big time 3 from Daniel Gibson. Ugh.

Overall the team looked much better. They still didn't look great, but it's a step in the right direction. The offense seemed more fluid and the team was actually playing as a team. In a game that I thought the Warriors would get killed on the boards, the difference was just 4. Everyone seemed to hit he boards tonight trying to swarm around the defensive rebounds. A better effort overall tonight, just not enough to win.

+/- Stat in Boxscore
This is the first time I noticed this, but the nba.com boxscore now includes a +/- stat. Let me pull out some interesting nuggets:

Brandan Wright = -8
In Brandan's 4 minutes of play the Cavs outscored the Warriors by 8 points. Ouch. I guess that's the reason Nellie doesn't like rookies.
Dwayne Jones = -9
Even worse than Brandan was Dwayne Jones who had a -9 in just 2 minutes of play. Only if the Cavs had played him more.
Monta Ellis = +9
He really did a nice job tonight. Brought the team back in the 2nd quarter and also in the 2nd half. Along with Al Harrington, he kept the Warriors close.
Daniel Gibson = +23
Man oh man. It says a lot when your team wins by just 4 and you have a +23 +/- stat.

Watching LeBron in person
I have to say that watching him on tv does not do him justice. He has such an amazing presence on the court and affects the game in so many ways. I don't think I ever truly appreciated his greatness until tonight. His near triple double may have something to do with it, but even still, he's one of those players that you just can't take your eyes off. Everything in basketball comes to him so easily. No look behind the back pass in traffic? No problem. Silky smooth. Hustle back on D to prevent a fast break layup? No problem. Heck he even puts on a show during warm ups with some dunks and alley oops.

As great as he is, it's that much better when he gets dunked on. Al Harrington threw down on him HARD on a fast break. Funny thing is, they didn't show it on Sportscenter, haters. Last year, Al seemed content to have just lay it up on uncontested fast breaks. But I guess this is the new Al.

I'm not sure if getting dunked on awoke his inner demons, but he sure seemed angry. He swatted/spiked/demolished/blocked 3 fast break layups that would have led to 6 points. All 3 blocks came from behind. One on Barnes, one on Monta, and another I forget who. He could have given up on the play but he hustled back and prevented the Warriors from getting easy buckets. That's what you love to see in your leader.

Free throws
Please go practice them. Please. There's no telling how big of a difference it would have made of the Warriors hit on more than 69% of their 26 free throws. Pretty funny chant from the guys in the back of section 109.

First guy: "Make your free throws!"

Group: "Pleeeeeease!"

POB, B Wright, and Marco
Welcome to the NBA, Brandan Wright! As nice as he dresses in suits, I sure was glad to see him out on the court in his jersey. Even though he didn't impact the game much, he saw his first taste of live game action. I'd like to see him get a little time each game to let him develop and get some experience under his belt.

Then there's the Warriors first round draft pick from last year, Patrick O'Bryant. He didn't look so bad out there. He didn't look so good either, but you can see some potential to be a solid low post defender and the ability to challenge and block shots. His 4 minutes were also uninspiring, but if he can continue to crack the lineup and get some real experience outside of the D-League, this team will be better off in the long run.

I was shouting "Marco?!" but nobody said "Polo!" I guess that's why he didn't get to play. Nobody could find him.

How about we play some defense?
Where did the scrambling, hectic defense go? The defense that consistently yielded near double digit steals and blocks, where is that? The Warriors aren't playing with any sense of urgency or heart. At times, the players look lethargic and take plays off. You cannot do that. This team cannot do that. A Don Nelson team cannot do that. This team thrives on deflections, blocked shots, and steals. We need some of that again.

You know it doesn't seem that difficult to figure out the Cavs offense. They try to penetrate, kick the ball out, rotate it (quite nicely I must say) and find the open man for the jumper. It seems so simple. They really didn't take the ball inside too much except for when LeBron was driving or passing it off to Ilgauskas. The Warriors needed to close out better on their shooters and prevent them from taking the open shot. Challenge the shot and make the man put the ball on the floor. Boobie and Drew Gooden are not nearly as comfortable taking the ball to the hole as they are taking jumpers. You have to make them do something they're less comfortable with.

The Closing Minutes
In the last few minutes, LeBron guarded Baron in Cleveland's man to man defense. He forced Baron into some tough shots and made sure that Baron didn't get a chance to bring the Warriors back. If the Warriors were going to win, it was going to be someone else. He flat out played excellent man defense in those final possessions. LeBron took out the Warriors best player and made the offense stagnant.

Is Baron Regressing?
No, I don't think he's returning to his Monty days where he'd hog the ball for much of the shot clock, but it is frustrating to see our best player and point guard go 11-28 from the field and 6-9 from the line. His final numbers looked nice, but the way he went about it closely resembles the Monty days rather than last year's playoff run. It's frustrating especially when you have Al Harrington with the hot hand at he start of the 4th, but then ignored for the rest of the quarter. If he's hot, feed him. Al scored on LeBron, Gooden, and whoever was guarding him. The same thing happened in the Clipper game when Kaz got hot in the 4th only to be ignored in the closing minutes. Baron, you don't have to do it all by yourself. This team is capable of knocking down shots if you create for them. I have faith in them, I hope you do too.

Monta Ellis
Welcome back Monta! He provided a big spark off the bench. The starters looked a little lethargic and he did what a 6th man is supposed to do, bring the energy. The shooting % is not pretty, but I was very happy with the way Monta came off the bench and brought the team back with consecutive buckets in the 2nd quarter.

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Baron has

looked off so far, he needs to realize when he's on a cold streak and give to the guy with the hot hand,. Especially since the Dubs have a glut of streaky shooters, he needs to get it to the guy whos hot right now instead of taking boneheaded 3s. I hope the young frontcourt of POB and B. Wright can develop into at least solid backups by the latter half of the year, the current frontcourt needs some serious help.

by Elcold on Nov 7, 2007 1:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

werd

Fitting that you'd name Monta the warrior wonder, considering he was the reason we lost in the first place.

The season's started, so I went back to Albert.

by coma on Nov 7, 2007 1:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Uh huh

We lost because of Monta? Good one. Please explain.

by Fantasy Junkie on Nov 7, 2007 9:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

monta

I believe coma is referring to the FG% and poor rotation on the Gibson 3, where Ellis should have stayed home instead of running at Big Z.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Would you guys be in favor of trading Monta for a

S&T for Anderson Varejao. Ellis would be perfect for the Cavs and Varejao may be a great fit here because we need someone who can rebound and clog the middle with AB. The Cavs can give a #1 pick, too.

by callahan on Nov 7, 2007 11:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

oh hells

no. period.

by Anomaly on Nov 7, 2007 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Varejao

Varejao wants quite a bit of money, which is why he's sitting out right now. He could have taken a qualifying offer like Pietrus, but his QO was much lower. It's fine to speculate about a sign and trade possibility, but it's not Cleveland that has the final say in things. It's Varejao and if he doesn't get the money from someone, he is not in any way compelled to take a lower offer.

We couldn't trade Monta for Varejao because of contract disparities, but the TPE would allow us to trade a second rounder for Varejao and in a "totally unrelated trade" send Monta out for another seemingly worthless pick.

There's a gut reaction that many have that Monta's ability to put up points makes him valuable. But that's short-sighted and ignores more than half the game.

Varejao isn't terribly exciting to watch. He doesn't score much (but neither does he waste shots not scoring and his team scored better when he was in the game than when he was on the bench), but he does rebound very well, can run the floor and based on his +/-, his team has done better when he's in the game than when he's been on the bench on both ends. Granted, his best stretches came alongside Ilgauskas, a big man with some offensive pop and he didn't fair as well alongside Gooden, another rebound-first guy, so the fit with Biedrins would be less than ideal, though they could form a better rotation than what we're seeing.

by jae on Nov 7, 2007 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Another reason to not want Andy V

He's a notorious flopper and isn't that much of a shot blocker. With the refs cracking down on that, you could bank on a lot of his drawn charges will be cheap free throws this year. He may not be on the floor enough to make a difference.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 7, 2007 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

the frontcourt

With Harrington and Biedrins in the starting lineup, POB playing effectively off the bench and Wright offering some hope for help in the future as he gets more burn, I wouldn't bring in another big.

Backup SF and backup PG are the only moves to make, imo.

That, and Baron and Ellis learning how to shoot.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

The weakest part of this team is still the frontcourt. Harrington has strung together back to back solid games, but Biedrins has yet to make a big impact or step up. If Biedrins is a star in the making like so many people tout him to be, he hasn't given any indication of that. On the other hand opposing centers such as Kaman and Ilgauskas look like superstars against the Warriors.

Also how is POB playing effectively off the bench when he's currently averaging almost as many fouls and turnovers as blocks, rebounds, and points combined? The Warriors are in desperate need of a backup big man and rugged rebounder/ defender until POB steps up.

Wright is definitely someone I'd wait to develop, but if he can help net a big that can step in now and help BD, Nellie, Jax, and Harrington I'm game. Even with his injury history I'd take on the defensive force that is Jermaine O'Neal- although I really question if he'd fit in with this offense. I get the feeling Nellie's not too far from sending Wright down to the DLeague. Nellie's been saying for months that Wright is 2-3 years away.

If there's no major deals to upgrade this roster with some vets that can help this year- If I'm Nellie I'm seriously wondering why I didn't try to take a different coaching job or why I'm not chilling on the beach in Hawaii kicking it with Willie Nelson.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 7, 2007 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

the backcourt

You don't think the guards taking nearly 60 shots at 30% is a bigger problem than a couple dropped passes?

As has been mentioned before, stopping opposing bigs is a team defensive responsibility. Even Duncan, 'Sheed, Garnett will get help from teammates against their guys, and if it doesn't come properly, they can also get burned.

More over, Kaman and Ilgauskis are skilled offensive scorers. They both can shoot from the perimeter, both have been double digit scorers before. They dominated the Warriors, not Biedrins as implied.

On any given play, especially in a zone, any particular defender might find himself responsible for a buncha different guys, not just the one that plays the same position on the other team.

Curiously absent is any mention of when Biedrins does actually beat a Kaman or Ilgauskis on the offensive end with his mobility.

Better guard play + better team defense (thats the entire roster)...thats what we need.

I don't see any trade as the solution. Baron and Ellis have the ability to play better, they just haven't done so. The team defense will improve with Jackson (And by extension, less Pietrus). Barnes looked like he found his stroke last night.

It's not a total mess, just little things adding up.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 2:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No doubt

The backcourt isn't playing as well as they're capable of and have had some serious defensive lapses, but frontcourt is what needs the upgrading. This isn't a surprise- we knew this all offseason.

POB, Biedrins, and Wright (not his fault at all- he deserves time) haven't been the solution this year. It's not like POB and Biedrins are capable of carrying this offense. Biedrins is so limited that it takes a Warrior guard/ swingman to draw 2 to 3 defenders before they can get him the ball in a position where he can score consistently. I have to guess that watching him uncharacteristically drop those few passes played a big role in the guards losing faith in him down the stretch and Nellie not seeming to call a play for him. And POB just hasn't done anything but collect fouls, so I don't know how anyone could consider him a legit backup big man off the thin bench right now.

Regardless of whether the team is playing zone or not, after all the preseason hype about Biedrins and people calling me crazy for voting for a wait and see approach with his extension, I do expect him to win these matchups against non-elite centers. He hasn't come close.

But plain and simple I don't think Baron trusts his teammates like he did last year. Aside from not trusting Al, I really don't blame him. This is exactly where we're feeling the loss of JRich and the temporary loss of Jax.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 7, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

oh

Why do you say "we", when you're almost the only person I know on this blog that loathes Biedrins? The general consensus here seems to be that Biedrins is the answer for our 5 spot. He's young, he's got great hands, he can run, and he finishes excellently.

You were never sold on him, and I don't think you ever will be, but I do personally think you're alone or definitely in the minority.

The season's started, so I went back to Albert.

by coma on Nov 7, 2007 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Loathes Biedrins?

Wow that's just distorting reality. I've always rooted for the guy, but I've consistently maintained that he's not a superstar in the making and the Warriors are fooling themselves if they think dedicating a huge chunk of their payroll to him in the next few years is a wise move. He has a ton of holes in his game that I think are incredibly difficult to correct.

Agan I hope I'm wrong and he blows up to superstar levels. I like the man- he brings energy and tries hard. I really do think he's the single most overrated player on the Warriors roster by the fans though. People are quick to make excuses for him.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 7, 2007 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Biedrins

When anyone say he's a superstar?

He's a good young player playing a position where it's difficult to find good players, period. The excitement comes from having a quality center after years of...not.

The "he's not a superstar!" line has been far overused. None of the regulars have called him a superstar and his paycheck isn't going to be commensurate to a superstar (Duffy wishes, but thats not reality). If it seems like people are making excuses for him, it's because overblown accusations have been thrown his way. It's not surprising to find alot of shells on the ground when lots of bullets have been fired.

If you want to analyze Biedrins, analyze him as what he is- a young 4th year center in just his second year starting. No need to invent expectations for him to fall short of- he's not Al Jefferson, he's not Josh Smith, but he's still good.

Tangentially, there is one guy being paid like a superstar- that's Baron Davis....but he isn't playing like one.
If he wants to reap the glory when we win, then he needs to bear the burden when we lose. Thats the nature of being the best player on a team.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

scoring and superstardom

As an important follow up to this, it seems like teams can survive much better with a center who can rebound but doesn't score much than with a center who can score, but cannot rebound up to the standards of his position. The "Superstar" label gets applied to a variety of players some of whom aren't really worthy. The one thing that they tend to have in common is that they score a bunch of points. For this reason, Biedrins is unlikely to ever be widely regarded as a "superstar" even if he contributes more towards raising the probability of winning than many a 20ppg scorer.

by jae on Nov 7, 2007 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

werd

I actually agree with most of what you said. I never really ever see you throw propers his way though, unless he pulls out like a 30-15, or something silly unconscious like that.

I agree with what OZ said as well. You could look at it as the glass half full or the glass half empty, I choose the glass half full approach.

The season's started, so I went back to Albert.

by coma on Nov 7, 2007 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's kinda funny

I actually gave him the highest grade of anyone in the report cards for last year:
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/story/2007/10/4/25949/5131

I just don't think he'll get that much better. Flip through the recaps I wrote last year. I gave this man a ton of props. He shocked me with his play. I mean don't get it twisted- I appreciate what he does and I root for him. I just think he has some serious holes in his game and people are ready to hand him 10 million a year when this team's biggest problems are still offense and defense down low.

Biedrins isn't a big time scorer down low (yet people complain he doesn't get enough touches) and he isn't a big time one on one defender down low (if he was I don't think we have to play these gimmicky zones against the likes of Boozer and the Cavs beefy frontline). He hasn't been a big time help defender either this year and the Warriors are still getting killed on the boards nightly. Part of me wonders if he's just collecting empty boards of the Troy Murphy type on a weak rebounding team. Remember TMurph actually grabbed more boards than Biedrins in his "prime" under Monty.

It's not a half-full, half-empty look. I'm just trying to be honest. I'm happy to see him on the Warriors for a long time, but his inability to do many things really makes things tough- not that the rest of this roster is perfect by any means. This frontline needs a big upgrade if they're going to compete for a playoff spot this year. Otherwise they're just wasting BD and Nellie.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 7, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

werd

I can dig it. But honestly what do you have in mind? We need to find a big guy who can defend inside but still run in Nellies system. Beans does have a lot on his shoulders, but who do you think can take that load and improve it?

The season's started, so I went back to Albert.

by coma on Nov 7, 2007 4:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

ps

Oh and also my oversight on your report card grades probably has to do with me being super high on Beans and his future with the Dubs.

The season's started, so I went back to Albert.

by coma on Nov 7, 2007 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Frontcourt Fallacies

Neither Z nor Boozer beat us down low. In fact, Kaman's the only guy, this year, to really handle Biedrins in the post. And as was the case last year, you'd be foolish to not expect Biedrins to stand with Duncan some nights, and make Kaman look like an all-star on others.

It's unfair to pin Boozer and Z on Andris:

Yes, Boozer made Andris look like a statue at times but what starting centers in this league are expected to keep up with that Greedy Blue Devil? It's too much to ask, especially of a 21 year old. As for Z? Well half the time Andris wasn't even guarding him. Even if he had been, you're not going to stop a 7-footer 20 feet from the basket when's having a hot shooting night.

Why were we playing Biedrins on Boozer and then in zone against Cleveland? Because the warriors don't have another shotblocker. Both Okur and Z pull the opposing center away from the basket, and when Lebron or Deron and Brewer are on the opposing team, that can really hurt you.

Also, to say that Biedrins won't improve much is a tough claim to back up. He's still 21. Still filling out. And if you caught any of the Euro games over the summer, you'll know he's still developing post moves. On the defensive end, it can take years for a guy to get comfortable with how refs call games.

Biedrins has a full plate developing his game. Its made exponentially worse by the fact that he's the only shotblocker and real post defender on the team, although Harrington can hang occasionally in the latter. Until POB & Wright combine for 20 minutes a game, our biggest weakness will remain down low, and both of those guys obviously share the same problems of being thin and inexperienced. Both can, however, alter shots, rebound, and shoot a little.

Any big we acquire would ideally rebound at a decent clip, block shots, and either post-up well or shoot the rock from outside. It's asking a lot, but that's how many holes our frontcourt has. If he can't do basically all those things, should we be trading away guys who can contribute in the future? A PG that could force that first defensive rotation/switch and be a floor general (Captain Jac please?) would do wonders too.

by BingBluNT on Nov 8, 2007 1:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Frontcourt Fallacies

It's unfair to pin Boozer and Z on Andris:

by BingBluNT on Nov 8, 2007 1:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

oh boy

So we're back to "if we had J-Rich..."?

It's not the job of Biedrins or POB to carry the offense- I have no idea where you got that idea, but using that as the standard for measuring Biedrins or POB is flat out wrong. Ask Nellie if he expects Biedrins to "carry the offense", I'm sure he'd offer you a beer, smile, then laugh.

"not being able to carry an offense" is also irrelevant to whether Biedrins is worth his $10M expected pricetag- again, I don't know why you got that idea. $10M isn't superstar money, it's the pricetag for a quality starting big man, which Biedrins certainly is.

You also point out that Biedrins didn't "win the individual matchup", as if that were a worthwhile measure of a players' effectiveness. The Warriors play zone D, the Warriors switch a lot on D, and the Warriors don't run their offense to get Biedrins the ball (much). Kaman gets his number called, Ilgauskis gets his number called, Boozer gets his number called...thats why they can put up numbers.

The preseason decision on his extension was an economic decision that hinged on whether Bill Duffy would cooperate. "Hype" had nothing to do with it.

POB hasn't had sufficient minutes, but when he was in the game he does disrupt opposite offensive players. I'm sure you would agree that numbers dont tell the whole story, and a shot changed or a penetrating opponent that is deterred isn't something measured in the boxscore. I'm not the only one that saw it, check Adam Lauridsen's article. He mentions it as well.

If Baron doesn't trust his teammates...thats on him, not his teammates. The job of a point guard is to make his teammates better, perhaps more so than any other position (on offense at least).

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 2:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

"No sense of urgency or heart"

You nailed it. The team appears completely lifeless out there most of the time. The past week -- mainly to cope -- I've been watching some of last year's playoff games and late regular season games, and I honestly can't believe it's the same team. They just don't have that hunger, that spark in their eye. Are they content with what they accomplished last season? Did they just expect the momentum from last season's run to continue into the 2007 season?

Look, I understand it's VERY early in the season, and that we're without one of our best players, and that we basically took a step back in the experience/leadership department by shipping J-Rich to Charlotte for a 20-year-old rookie, and that our early-season schedule is unusually difficult, but as a die-hard fan it's disheartening nonetheless.

I just hope they can right the ship sooner than later, because the margin for error in the Western Conference is extremely small. A win over the Mavs on Thursday would certainly be a step in the right direction.

by Epicurious Cowboy on Nov 7, 2007 1:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I have no idea

Why anyone is remotely confident that we can handle the Mavs.

They're a much better team than we are.
They're going to come out pissed off and itching to exact revenge for last year.
We're without Jack, our certified Dirk-killer(TM).

Conclusion: Mavs by 20, at least.

My first "Tank the season" diary may not be far off... ;-(

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 2:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention

always-formidable Pistons, or red-hot Clippers, or versatile Raptors, or revitalized Knicks then what-the-Warriors-could've-been Celtics...

Looking at the Nov schedule? the only team I think they have a decent shot to beat is local rival Sac (even then I'd rather they face the Monarchs) and that's with Capt Jack back

Do you all feel the collective Bay Area Charlie Brown scream everytime Lucy pulls the ball away like I do?

Good Grief.

by Anomaly on Nov 7, 2007 7:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

November Schedule

We all knew the warriors were going to be in trouble with it's November and December Schedule. But I here is a more positive way to spin it.

Positives:

We got Dallas and Detroit at home and on the 2nd night of a back to back set of games. Where as the Warriors will be rested having one day of rest before Dallas and 5 days before Detroit.
The clippers are playing out of their minds and I fully expect their matchup to be similar to last year, where each team wins on their home court (remember LAC went 15-26 on the road).
The road trip brings back Jax and I think that will make a huge difference in the their transition offense (last night they only have 14 point in transition).
Even though NYC is over achieving, WAS is underachieving and Philly is just about as bad was we are. I could see the Warriors going 3-2 on the road swing, maybe even 4-1 if they can sneak out a close one in Toronto.
I watched Phoenix's against Seattle, and they had a hard time with Seattle's matchup zone. Seeing the warriors zone last night makes me think that they'll be able to hang with Phoenix.

So I see the 0-4 Warriors end the month with 5-10 or possibly 7-8 if a few breaks go their way.

by mcwalter44 on Nov 7, 2007 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I have an idea

Let's all go to the game and hold up "we believe" signs, like they had last year.

Because Oakland (Oakland), is just like Compton (Compton).

by dubsball on Nov 7, 2007 9:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Has anyone mentioned

the reverse effect that contract squabbles can have. Almost all of our key players (and coach) tried to cash in on last years success and only one was successful (Nelson). The real reason Nellie wanted more money guaranteed was b/c he had a feeling that they had captured lightning in a bottle at the end of last year. Playing without a guaranteed contract can motivate (as we all assumed it would) but it can also be demoralizing if you truly feel you earned it. It seems to me that some of the players are going through the motions out there as though their heads are still thinking about the slight from the front office. Just an opinion, but imagine your boss not giving you the raise you felt you deserved after leading the org. to the most successful year in 14. You too would show up and "just do your job" like any good hourly employee. I'm not saying it's right it just seems that that may be the case due to the overwhelming lack of enthusiasm, urgency and readiness seen from all players not named Al or Kelenna.

by triplesix on Nov 7, 2007 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

+\- stats...

...while I usually find them useful, are kind of arbitrary in the case of a guy like Brandan Wright who onlyplayed, what, two minutes? Just because the Cavs it a streak the couple minutes when he was in doesn't mean that he played poorly... I remember him missing one tough shot, getting one rebound, and blocked a driving shot. I thought he looked pretty nice.

by Zack Vank on Nov 7, 2007 1:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

yea i know

i'm not sure what I think of the +/- stat yet, I just found those that I pulled out to be interesting considering the result of the game.

by Fantasy Junkie on Nov 7, 2007 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

On the bright side...

We're getting better, and not worse. No matter how bad of a team the Cavs look on paper, they were still capable of going through the entire Eastern Conference and into the NBA Finals last year. This wasn't a "gimme" by any stretch, and neither is the next game against the Mavs..

At least we're getting all of our rough games out of the way early right? ... right?

by jlagace on Nov 7, 2007 2:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

afterthoughts

I just hate how our offense is set up. I've been bothered by it since last year. I watch other teams and they have nice execution, good ball movement. Nice movement to free up their players for open looks. But us, it just resembles me playing Live 06 or a pick up game.

We rely too much on a not so aggressive pick-and-roll. It's basically brushing off Baron or Monta's defender and basically them driving or shooting. And the occasional cut to the basket by Biedrins. So basically, the other 3 people are just standing on their spots. Waiting to be fed the ball. That's why it's easy to shut us down the stretch, you basically put your best defender on Baron, someone bigger than him yet quick on his feet. And we'll have trouble. As great a strategist Nellie is, I think our offense need a little more structure that actively involves all 5 players most if not all the time.

Also, is it me or Monta is getting the Wade and Ginobili syndrome. Too much acting and falling not much contact. The thing is, Wade and Ginobili usually gets a whistle. Monta on the other hand just looks pathetic. Love Monta but man, he should be learning how to run the point instead of practicing how to flop.

I missed the first half so my most memorable part of the game wasn't Al dunking on Bron(haven't even seen it yet) but it was Monta getting swatted on a fast break instead of an easy two. Monta needs to learn how and when to drop passes. You drive, you jump and try to get the defender to jump and you drop it to your teammates. If they don't easy 2 for you, if they do jump, easy two for your teammate. He learns that, with his quickness, he'll be hard to contain.

by lightz0ut on Nov 7, 2007 3:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Lebron only -forced- Baron into bad shots

because he's all too willing to TAKE BAD SHOTS. when he finally hit those two 3's down the stretch i knew we were in trouble, 'cause he'd just justified the last 17 misses to himself. pass the friggin' ball hero.

by 321 IN n OUT on Nov 7, 2007 8:06 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Lebron

was amazing, and it wasn't just in his scoring. his 3 blocks definetly swung the game, and Gibson's threes against our slow zone. I would like to see the defense switched up more. I agree when we go Man it can get problematic, but when we go zone for long stretches, the opposition just camps at the three point line.

Can I kick it?

by tadams1080 on Nov 7, 2007 8:08 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Casual triple double

Lebron seems to always have an unnoticed triple double by the time I leave the arena. Not to mention how the refs let him bully our players and call a single, late foul on him.

Fantasy, I dissagree with your comments about our defense. I think we are playing with urgency and we are doubling, not to mention collapsing. However, it is the offense that looks stagnant. This leads to my belief that most of the naysayers are thinking Baron is just a ball hog, which is incorrect. Baron is a tempermental player who plays according to his supporting cast. There was an offensive bond last year after the trade. Jack helps seal that. Until then, as the leader, Baron might need to be more encouraging at times. This is difficult when, and I feel Baron really does look pass first most of the game, opposing teams are playing us differently this year. They are daring Baron to beat them. This was especially apparent during the Jazz games when during pick and rolls, all the cutters (mainly Andris) were guarded to perfection, therefore forcing Baron to either force up a shot he didn't initally intend or kick it out while the clock was winding down. This continued last night. All the rollers were guarded as Baron was looking for them.

There is one thing I will say about the defense though, why would you play a zone during that last shot and leave their best shooter open, Boobie Gibson? Dude was draining them all night.

by onetwocross on Nov 7, 2007 8:56 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I have to agree about the stagnant O

They're half court O has always been... lacking. Its all iso's and playground pick n rolls. In the miracle run last year, it was hidden by the fact that warriors were forcing a ton of turnovers and getting a ton of transition points. Plus everyone got hot from outside.

Either they need to step it up by causing more turnmovers, or they need to be more diverse with their half court looks.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 7, 2007 9:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Baron and Ellis

And azubuike were a combined 20-57. We won't win a single game in which our backcourt rotation shoots that badly.

Baron taking 28 shots is inexcusable when Harrington was extremelyt effective when given the opportunity. I would put alot of blame on Ellis for his poor team defense, but even more blame on Baron, our leader, for leading us into a standstill offense for far too long. It was SCARY how much he seemed like the Monty Baron. It's worse that we don't have a true backup PG to turn to for a spark.

As you mentioned, the defense was a step slow. For a team without a lock down perimeter defender, lack of effort is absolutely unacceptable.

On the positive side...again Al was awesome. He needs a bigger role. Our rebounding, thanks to Al and AB was nearly even (off by 4, IIRC).

The Warriors are like a very highly tuned formula 1 engine running on bad gasoline. Everything's got to be perfect, firing all cylinders in sync,...and we're just a little bit off, throwing everything out of position with horrible results.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 9:21 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Fantasy Junkie

Dude it was great seeing you at the game (I was sitting in you row behind you guys). Thanks for putting in the note about section 109. That guy was there in the same seats with the same chants all last season too. With his great phrases and cliches I swear that he's Caption Obvious.

Phrase - est times said
"This ain't Cleveland... this Oakland" - 100 times
"Make your free free throws.... please!!!" - 26 times.
"You suck... oh wait... you're Lebron" - time but it was funny as hell
"You got dunked on... dut, dut, dat, dat" - 50 times after Al's facial on Lebron
"You're leaving... why are leaving... I'm still fan... this Oakland" - 25 times over the last minute of the game.

by mcwalter44 on Nov 7, 2007 9:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Whassup man

Yea thanks for saying hi. Always good to meet new people.

As far as that guy, I was entertained since this is the first time I heard him, but if he doesn't bring out new material, it'll probably get annoying. Seemed like a bunch of guys having a good time though. And they started a few chants of "Defense" and "Let's Go Warriors" so it was all fun.

He also did his: "So what! I don't care" - 1000 times after every Cavs bucket or nice play.

by Fantasy Junkie on Nov 7, 2007 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Inexcusable Loss

This offensively challenged Cavs team is not a great or elite team. They're on the road and just faced the Suns on Sunday night. Key cogs Eric Snow, Larry Hughes, and Anderson Varejao (they all play D which is big for Mike Brown) were all MIA. Plus LeBron played with one eye for most of the game. How the Warriors lost this one and let the Cavs shoot 47% is beyond me.

The Warrior guards have to shoot better- BD, Monta, and Kaz in particular. No question. Baron had some good defensive moments, but overall the backcourt was just struggling on D. I'm sure that all that focus on that Lebron guy had something to do with it, but still. Monta is just not playing anywhere near the level he was at last year before the playoffs. Is he regressing?
Andris' line looked good aside from the turnovers, but that's misleading. His D was overall pretty weak. I'm worried he's just not a very good one-on-one defender against big men. For most the game Nellie didn't seem comfortable even letting him guard Z who went off. Kaman and Z ripping up the Warriors' interior- I'm noticing an unfortunate trend. I don't feel safe saying he's a top 10 center in this league or that he will be right now. Still there's plenty of time left in this season. Also it was just so depressing watching him dribble from the low block all the way up the elbow for no reason. Just strange.
Nice to see Al with 2 back to back outings. Who knows BD + Al at this level + Jax from last year's playoffs just might be the nice veteran trio this team needs. All 3 can bring it on both offense and defense.
I see a lot of Warrior fans loudly criticizing Nellie for not playing BWright, Lasme, or Marco more. That's just misguided. We don't watch these guys in practice and we honestly don't have a clue how they'd do against NBA competition right now. I trust Nellie with his rotations. He knows what he's doing. This isn't Monty.
Right now this is the worst defensive team in the league.
My shot in the dark- Monta + MP2 + POB and maybe even one of Wright/ Biedrins are traded by the end of the season for some vets. Otherwise Nellie's just wasting his time- he knows it, we all know it.
Ron Artest.

The Warriors are just a very bad team right now. Mullin and Rowell don't seem to get this, but you win in this league with veterans and superstar youngsters. The Warriors are too young and inexperienced and their youngstars aren't budding superstars (although I can't say that about Brandan Wright since he hasn't played enough).

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 7, 2007 10:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

There are alot of reasons why the Warriors lost

Atma,

The Warrior's defense is terrible, but pointing to their one on one defensive mistakes from last night's game is BS, because, as you know, they spent most of game in a matchup zone. Why might you ask? LBJ is why. Usually the warrior would stick their best wing defender on him (S-Jax), however, with Jax not available and their next best defender (Davis) not well suited to guard the King for a full game and be expected to run the show for team. Therefore, they went zone and dared guys like Gooden, Z, Boobie, and D. Jones to beat them from the outside and unfortunately they're shots were on last night.

Also, what lost game wasn't Mullin's bad offense decision (trading Richardson), because J-rich wouldn't have clamped down any better on LBJ and I still think Nellie would have implemented the matchup zone. No, what lost the game was LBJ guarding Baron for the last 2:30 of the 4th quarter and Baron going isolation and then settling for fade away jumpers on 3 consecutive possessions, instead trying to use his speed to drive and draw a foul. Also, if the Warriors hit a few more free throws and/or use the rim as shield with a reverse lay up instead of letting LBJ flying in like AK-47 with blocks from behind on 3 2nd half fast breaks, then the warriors win.

I know it is tough to see the Warriors play so badly on defense, but being the Seattle Supersonics lifer that I'm can tell you at there's at least one team soon to move to OKC that plays worst defense than the Warriors. Again, I think the Warriors' defense is awful, but it's also hindered by their poor offense combined with a lead worst 35 rebs per game, which is letting our opponents get out in transition on us thus enabling them to get more layups and shoot 50% per game from the field on us (2nd only to Sacramento's opponent 51% FG percentage). The key for the Warriors has and always will be rebounding and point in transition. During their magical run last season they were winning the points in transition battle. So far this season they are losing it and that is why they are 0-4.

by mcwalter44 on Nov 7, 2007 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good points

Although I'd say the Warriors have to go with so much zone (which leaves shooters like Boobie open like you noted) is because the man D capabilities on this team are poor not just because Jax has been out. Neither Monta or Biedrins (aside from on crazy game against Tim Duncan last season if I remember right) have ever really shown me they can play man D.

One great thing you pointed out was Lebron's stellar D on BD down the stretch and those amazing swats. If this guy ever becomes a shut down defender-- oooh, it's gonna be scary (not that it already isn't). He could approach MJ heights if he plays the D he did last night. I can't believe he's only 22.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 7, 2007 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Tim K with the history

Gotta love his research:
http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/kawakami/2007/11/07/warriors-fall-to-0-4-its-still-not-time-to-panic- yet-unless-you-remember-1989-90/

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 7, 2007 10:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

It's insanity

That anyone thought this team could have been better than last years team. This year was lost in the offseason. You'd have to think (collusion between Boston and McHale aside) that Minnesota would have and still would have traded Garnett for Ellis + Biedrins and change. And it's clear, even from limited minutes that Belinelli isn't as good as we (myself at least) thought he would be.

by SpreeForThree on Nov 7, 2007 10:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Fixing BD

BD -- tho he scored 29 (and his opponent 22, including the open killer at the end) -- was the reason the W's lost last night. He's still doing the wrong things and still playing weak at crunch time. There's an easy cure, but Nellie must stick to these three rules:

First and foremost, no more than 36 minutes in any game. Period. (See Nash, Steve.) If the ship is sinking in the 2d or 3d Qs, we have to find another answer. Nellie's brain knows this, but his gut has him cheating here.

Second, no more than three dribbles once over the half court line. No more pounding -- the surest road to disaster.

Third, no more threes unless (1) there's less than three seconds on the shot clock or (2) you've got 10 feet of open space.

Follow these rules religiously, and BD will be back to playing like he did last year. (And if he ever learns how to use AB like Jack does, we'll really see something from this team; he's still passing on easy PNR's with AB for no discernible reason -- causing AB to start to doubt himself.) BD's the key here -- but he must open the lock himself.

Finally, the +/- "analysis" above, while helpful at times, really misses the boat re BW's four minutes last night. He was fast, in position, using his arms, speeding the slowing down W's back up, etc. Sure, his Box looks weak, but he showed something special, and the W's need to play him more so that he can develop his enormous talents more quickly. 'Nuff said

by johnl on Nov 7, 2007 10:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Right on

The W's got tight in the last 5 minutes of the game. The ball got stagnant in BD's hands and there was that possession that was just plain horrible.

Biedrins has good hands, it just seems that the passes aren't coming in at the right angle and the defense is able to swat at them and cause Beans to fumble.

BD really is the key, but the addition of Jack will open up the game for everyone else. In the meantime, no more pounding the ball, it's all about passing and movement for the W's in the half-court.

oh yeah, and FREE THROWS.

by ourwarriors on Nov 7, 2007 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Larry versus Dominique

I thought for a second that it was going to be a night to remember with two budding superstars going at it mano y mano. First Al with a tough jumper on the sideline. Then Lebron answers back. Al again. Again Lebron. Then we stop giving Al the ball. WTF?!??!!

by onetwocross on Nov 7, 2007 11:11 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Al Harrington

"Budding Superstar." :-P

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Keep your Heads Up!!!

I was at the game and we lost because of HORRIBLE FT%. It's amazing to see how many FT we missed, especially when it counted, MONTA/BD/AB!!! Phauk man, make your FT's.

Our offense is extremely stagnant right now with the departure of JRich and no SJax. 2/5 pieces from the '06-'07 team are gone. REMEMBER THAT when you all are frustrated about being 0-4.

On a good note, we did rebound with an objective to do so, we were aggressive on D, a little too aggressive (over rotation leading to WIDE OPEN 3's) and we seemed to make more lay-ups.

Our spacing/movement really stinks right now though. We have less options to get the ball in the hoop right now and it shows. Aside from BD and Andris from 2 feet away, we really haven't had anyone that could knock down a needed shot, so with that being said, we just dribble the ball the entire sequence 1 on 1 and either turn the ball over on a kick out or we miss a really poorly selected shot from 20 feet.

All in all we are getting better with each game. Everything is working upward-maybe because we are at rock bottom, but nonetheless, we are looking better each game. We've played the Jazz twice who are really good, the Clippers who are nuclear hot right now and the Cavs who ran the table in the Eastern Conference. All this with no JRich and no SJax. It's not really that shocking, but it defiantly is a bummer being that we are coming off a huge high from last year. Keep at'em Dubs. Things will fall into place...

by gabezgsw on Nov 7, 2007 12:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

the D

I suppose a consistently overaggressive D is better than a consistently lethargic D, but last nite we started the game with no energy on D and had moments when we weren't paying attention on D in the 2nd half. Then in the final few minutes we were going too hard.

Consistency and smarts...its alot to ask for

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

FT shooting

We were 18-26, for 69% overall -- better than the Cavs did, and pretty much in keeping with last year's average (71.7%). And yet somehow, despite the fact that we played mediocre offense (poor spacing/movement, too much dribbling) and mediocre defense (over-rotation), free throws are to blame for the loss?

As for our supposed rough schedule: as Atma points out, the Cavs sans Snow and Varejão are at best mediocre; and the Clips, nuclear start notwithstanding, are just bad. Meanwhile, neither the Rockets (in Utah) nor the woeful Lakers had any problems waxing the unbeatable Jazz. Four games into the season, we're still the only team the Jazz has managed to beat... :-(

Yup, it's still early days, but until we demonstrate otherwise, I'm going with the Atma theory: we're just not a very good team.

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 1:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Just a few general comments...

I'm not going to say this is why the W's lost, but why does BD feel the need to take LBJ mano-a-mano in the last few minutes of the game? It appeared that Baron was intentionally switching so that he could guard LeBron, and when Baron had the ball, he refused to pass when James guarded him. If Monta and Al are having good offensive nights, I don't understand the lack of any ball movement or proper defensive rotation (I don't recall anyone being in foul trouble either). If Baron wants to do that nonsense in the 2nd quarter, fine, but don't pull that crap with 3 minutes to go in the game. He's been in the league too long to get played by LeBron in that manner.
Kelenna was 2-10 from the floor. I think we can stop the J-Rich comparisons for a few months at least. Kelenna has a lot of work to do if he's going to be a productive 2-guard on a nightly basis.
Al just gets me excited. He's playing at a high level right now, but I just wish BD would look for him even more often. Still, that dirty dunk on LBJ was fantastic. I might have to get a Harrington jersey.
Why did MP2 only play 19 minutes? BD has no business on the court for 46 minutes, and yet Pietrus, one of the few available players who should be routinely guarding James, can't get on the court? I'm confused.
I watched B. Wright very closely. First off, why did Nellie not put him in during the 2nd quarter, but he threw him to the wolves in the 3rd? Strange, I thought. Second, it looks like Wright has light years to go on the offensive end, as he didn't really know where to be, but that will come in time. Third, he is really, really long (his arms must hang to his ankles). This is going to come in very handy on the defensive end, as he can alter shots without jumping (and fouling), and he seemed to frequently be around the ball. Fourth, his +/- from last night's game was totally skewed. If he makes that one shot (which was a tough one), Nellie probably keeps him in the game, and he's out there when the W's go on a quick 8-0 run.

by UncleCliffy on Nov 7, 2007 1:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Dude

Re your #2: Kelenna has had one bad game, after a summer of studliness and a solid-to-brilliant first three. A quickie comparison:

Richardson (3 games)
35.7 min
20.3 pts
5.7 reb
47.8% fg
46.2% ft

Azubuike (4 games)
33.0 min
16.8 pts
3.8 reb
54.5% fg
87.5% ft

Sample sizes are still too small to conclude much, but I think it's likely JRich's slightly better rebounding and KAz's better shooting (particularly from the stripe) will continue. I still haven't heard a compelling argument for JRich's vast edge over KAz, other than "well, we're sucking, so it must be because we don't have JRich."

As has been said before, KAz really isn't the problem. I do think our main problem as a franchise, above and beyond our lack of rebounding and D, is that we don't have a credible #2 star to pair with BD -- but, alas, that was also the problem when we had JRich. And no, Pree's comments notwithstanding, Stephen Jackson is not that guy either. Love the guy, but I could go through the teams and find 20-25 "second bananas" who are much better at basketball than him.

No, our mistake wasn't in dumping JRich, but in dumping him for a project (a promising one, but a project nonetheless) when, given Baron and Nellie's windows of opportunity, we should have been in straight GFIN mode. Not to harp, but guys like KG don't become available every day; and when they do, you sell the farm for them (despite the howls of protests from fans on sites like this one). How many of our problems would have been solved by plugging in the best rebounder in the NBA -- who also happens to be a fabulous defender, passer, and scorer, a guy who can eat Carlos Boozer's lunch, and a total madman dedicated to winning? Baron would have become our "second banana," with Jax, Harrington, Buki, Barnes, and a couple of wily vets at C and backup PG rounding out the rotation.

This how it basically should have gone down on draft night:

Charlotte gets: JRich, Jermareo Davidson.
Minnesota gets: whoever they want at #8, Monta, Biedrins, POB and Cabbages. Given that KG was still saying at that point that he didn't want to play in Boston, that would have been a pretty sweet return for them -- likely better than the one they got.
Warriors get: KG.

Warriors use their #18 pick, next year's #1, the MLE and the TPE in trades to fill their holes with savvy veterans (Artest, Brevin Knight, Boykins, Varejao, whoever they could pry). Basically what Boston did with House and Posey.

Now that ship has sailed, the Bay Area has yet another crap team (scarily, the Warriors are still probably the best team in Bay), and those annoying Boston fans have a third championship-caliber team to crow annoyingly about...

But OK, yeah -- it's only four games.

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 5:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow...

I wrote this whiny rant before checking tonight's scoreboard.

Celtics lead Denver by 40 ... at the half????

One word: WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I Wuz Right, part #2

Meanwhile, JRich goes 2-15 with 5 turnovers.

On the season: 34% fg, 46% ft.

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 6:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

also

Kaman dropped 15/22/3 on Jermaine O'Neal.

Either O'Neal "sucks" or Kaman "doesn't suck" (and by extension, neither does Biedrins).

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 6:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

that could be misleading

kaman only shot 37.5% w/ 4 FT attempts and only 3 of his 22 boards were on the offensive end (vs 47%, 9 FT attempts & 8 off rebs). plus oneal's not 100% and foster, murphy & harrison also played center.

by the evil monkey on Nov 8, 2007 12:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ummmm. . .

Hard to knock 19 defensive rebounds in ANY NBA game. Truth is, Kaman's playing very well. It probably won't last, but . . . .

The W's key remains BD: he's got to stop pounding, start passing, quit shooting those horrid threes -- and admit his game just simply tanks after he's been in for over 35 minutes (tho Nellie's got to stick with his guns on keeping Baron fresh, so that he doesn't continue turning into toast at crunch time). BD CAN be great, but -- as Clint famously said ageneration ago, now: "A man's gotta know his limits."

by johnl on Nov 8, 2007 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Blockbuster Trade

that Minny might have rejected. Biedrins and Monta leaves them with no post-player and an undersized backcourt. Jefferson is better than either one of those guys and Gomes and Green have potential as well.

we still have our fair share of problems too:

If KG was suiting up for us, Foyle might not have agreed to a buyout, although he also could have been part of the trade and subsequently bought out by minny. Anyway, this trade leaves the warriors with no backup PG, even less frontcourt depth than we have now (unless you assume Foyle stays if we get KG), and almost $55 million set aside to 4 players on the team.

by BingBluNT on Nov 7, 2007 7:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

the trade

Left Boston without a backup point guard.

They're doing ok.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 7:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Or a legit starting point guard

Or a legit center. Rondo can't shoot to save his life, Kendrick Perkins is basically a younger Foyle, and Pollard is probably worse than POB.

Depth is for suckers. Guys like Matt Barnes and MP2 are a dime-a-dozen. With Garnett manning the middle, and Pierce/Allen on the wings, your Houses, Rondoes, and Powes suddenly look like bona fide complementary studs.

I can buy the "Boston wouldn't have accepted that package" line -- though I wish could at least been say that we had offered it. What I won't buy is the BS that we're better off with our "youth" and "depth" than we'd be with KG.

As it stands, I'd probably take KG over Duncan, and the Celtics' roster over the Spurs' roster -- straight up. Assuming good health all-around, the Spurs better hope their superior coaching and chemistry hold up come NBA finals time...

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 7:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not to harp on it

-- OK, to harp on it -- which would you rather have:

Monta, Biedrins, and your choice of Wright/Noah/Thornton; or
Jefferson, Gomes, and Green.

I agree that Jeff is marginally the best of the bunch, but given his injury history and lack of D, and the fact that Gerald Green flat sucks, I'd take package #1, hands down. In other words, I wouldn't trade #1 for #2. Would you?

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 8:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

boston

I'd take Boston's.

They also got Ratliff's massive expiring (Which might be used at the deadline, who knows) and a couple picks (or picks "back").

Telfair might be an underrated part of the deal- I thought he'd be a throw in but he hasn't been that bad, filling in while Foye is out.

Green has been surprisingly missing.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 8:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So...

Right now you'd trade Wright (or Noah), Biedrins, and Monta for those guys? Just making sure.

The question is really moot, since on draft night, when (presumably) Mulson were twiddling their thumbs on AB, Boston was out of the picture, as Garnett had explicitly stated that he didn't want to play there. Boston seemed to resurface when the main contenders -- us, Phoenix, LA, and Chicago -- couldn't or wouldn't deliver the goods.

I guess we'll never really know what actualy went down, but I'd love to know that we had acted decisively, saying essentially, "take anyone you want from our roster not named Baron."

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 8:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i think you're right

depth only matters if you have quality in front of it.

The warriors have tons of depth, the quality we're still working on...

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Nov 7, 2007 8:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

Since Ratliff's expiring was worth more than Foyle, which would have been necessary to make the money work.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Nov 7, 2007 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, I gotta be careful

One comment, and I get a KG to the W's 3-way trade deal that should have gone down. Fantastic!

My comment regarding KAZ was meant in this manner: The guy is human; he has bad games. A few posters were a little too excited. The NBA season is a grind, and one of the major factors separating players is endurance: I'm confident that J-Rich will still be averaging 20+ ppg in March; I can only hope and pray that Kaz will do the same. My compelling argument is that J-Rich has those numbers over 5 or 6 seasons. Azubuike has them over 5 or 6 games.

Your KG comments are very well thought out and accurate. I would take the GS package over the Boston package. IMO, Minny got absolutely fleeced in the deal (almost to the point of being shady). I cannot possibly imagine that they couldn't get a better package from another NBA team, even given all restrictions.

I do admit I was in the "Anyone but BD and Biedrins" camp, but that's because I think AB is one of the most unique players in NBA history. He could be peaking now, or he could be dominating the league from 2012-2017. But if I was sitting face-to-face with McHale and he offered KG, I'd have to relent on Biedrins, if just for PR purposes.

by UncleCliffy on Nov 7, 2007 11:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Believe me

It doesn't take much to get me whimpering about KG. :-( I watched most of tonight's Celtics/Nuggets game, and was torn between curling up in a fetal position and crying and invoking my Boston roots to jump back on the Celtics bandwagon...

On JRich: I go back and forth. I think trading him was basically a smart move; at the same time, yeah, he was clearly our second-best player, for better or worse. Part of me worries that we may have "sold low" on him; another part thinks that he may have permanently lost a bit of the explosiveness that was such a crucial part of his game when he was our #1 guy. And honestly, even at his heights, I'm not convinced he was a legit NBA star. The numbers looked pretty good, and I give him props for working so had to improve his game, but I share the general take that he seems to have learned hoops by watching instructional videos. He's never had the instinctive feel for the game of, for example, Paul Pierce or Ray Allen. (Who do they play for again?)

Going forward, I'd bet KAz and JRich will be about equally productive on a per minute basis over the next 4-5 years. JRich may be marginally more explosive and a better rebounder, but KAz has tighter handles and a better stroke, especially from the FT line. Factor in BWright's huge upside and the difference in $$ and it's almost certainly a genius trade beyond this season.

Totally agree on AB, though. It would have been a risk to part with him, but if we actually cared about going for the big prize, a risk we had to take. If, on the other hand, we were more concerned with building for the future, the smart move would have been to hit up Boston for something like Rondo, the #5 pick, and Ratliff's expiring in exchange for Baron -- a move I'm fairly sure they would have made.

As it is, we're kind of caught in between. I wailed a lot about this during the offseason. So far, our "in-between-ness" seems to be on full display. Better hope the kids grow up quick, like that alien chick in "Species"...

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 8, 2007 2:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

this is our play-by-play

baron drives, made layup
baron drives, foul
baron misses at least a FT. (He makes both 3 of 5 times)
baron shoots, missed
baron shoots, missed
baron shoots, made jumper
baron drives, pass to PUT NAME HERE.
PUT NAME HERE shoots, made / missed.
monta shoots, missed
monta shoots, missed
monta shoots, made jumper
monta drives, made layup
monta drives, miss
monta turnover.
PUT NAME HERE gets a golden opportunity. Make basket.

REPEAT CYCLE IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER.

by lightz0ut on Nov 7, 2007 1:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Here are some links to stats to ponder over

82games.com
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708GSW.HTM

Popcornmachine.net (for some reason last night's game isn't up yet).
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20071103&game=GSWUTH
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20071102&game=GSWLAC
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20071030&game=UTHGSW

My brain feels like it's going to implode after trying to comprehend how bad the Warriors defense is right now.

by mcwalter44 on Nov 7, 2007 2:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Here's the Warriors vs CAVS game

Popcornmachine.net
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20071106&game=CLEGSW

by mcwalter44 on Nov 8, 2007 9:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

anyone know what the deal is?

why didn't marco play last night? Besides the fact that Ellis was making his baskets... why no Marco? And of course again, why does Nelson always forget that Kelenna is on the end of the bench... he didn't have that great of a game, but it would have been nice to have someone in there who is more than just a drive to the basket type player.

by david240z on Nov 7, 2007 3:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I think Nellie got that one right

Marco, so far, as appeared to be a poor defender, especially working around screens. I don't think Nellie has any confidence in playing Marco and Monta on the floor at the same time b/c of serious defensive liabilities, and since Monta was playing well, Nellie probably thought it made little sense to bring in Belinelli.

by UncleCliffy on Nov 7, 2007 3:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

top 10?

Correct me if I'm wrong, or if I just completely missed it. . .

I swear I didn't see Al's dunk on LeBron in ANY top 10 Highlight reel today. Not on SportsCenter or NBATV. Yet, Bron has 2 of his blocks vs us in NBATV's list.

"Where NO LOVE happens"

by mojo X on Nov 7, 2007 3:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

baron

i'mma throw it out there: he's pissed that he didn't get his contract extention so he's regressing back to his pound the ball days of the monty era. he seems extremely lifeless out there, and that rubs off on everyone else

by AJC3317 on Nov 7, 2007 5:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

0-4 ughh

i agree with the fact we didnt giv the ball to harrington and eventually took him out cuz we needa a 3. OK! GET MOVE not. and i especially gotta note that pietrus is the worst warriors on the team and deserves to never get off the bench no matter what the reason is. the story line is now if we dont beat the mavs we're pretty much done for the season its that simple. but if we do beat the mavs it will reignite the warriors wish will lead them 2 games after the mavs to the return of action jackson thus furthering the warriors wins. here is a simple solution for the warriors to win
no pietrus+beat the mavs+watch the 3s run n gun+ jackson

by gswLLBatman on Nov 7, 2007 7:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Simple view from the O

first game live this year - it's really not all that hard to digest

Cavs are better than just LJ - they have guys who shoot, rebound, and defend while we have

Cavs executed an offense while we

When the Warriors drove they got fouled or scored

SJax is not going to make up the whole difference

BWright is going to be a productive player, someday but not soon

and

Last observation - seems like AB gets about 90% of his points off BD's feeds (I'd love to be able to prove that statistically but ...) keep that in mind when contracts come into conversation again

by hardcore on Nov 7, 2007 7:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

on more thing

that ol signature line in Nelson we trust is now

in Nelson we trust?

if a team doesn't execute do we blame the players, but when a team does execute we credit the coach?

by hardcore on Nov 7, 2007 7:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Makes me glad the season is 82 games long

As bad is things are @ 0-4, lets keep it in perspective, no team plays at the SAME LEVEL from beginning to end. Teams streak, teams slump. It happens. Even if the club is 0-7 when Jax arrives, the dubs season isn't done. You never know what the future brings. All it means is the dubs just have work that much harder to get back in the thick of things.

Hell, who knows, the w's may aim to be the 1st team to start 0-15 and make it to the playoffs. That might even top last years miracle if that happens.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 7, 2007 9:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I agree, basically

Although one thing to keep in mind: those four losses are in the bank -- we're not entitled to a special winning streak to make up for them. If we are precisely a .500 team, we should be expected to finish the season 39-43. With the way Memphis and NO are playing right, I doubt that gets us the #8 seed...

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 7, 2007 10:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, I'm not banking on them winning a single game

My point is that an 0-7 start isn't cause for anybody to burn their season tickets over. They could end up finishing 0-82, for all I know, but until that last game comes, there's really no telling what the future holds for this squad.

0-7 start isn't completely insurmountible. Last year the dubs were 9 games under 500 with far less time left in the season. I wouldn't be the only one here saying last year ended up being a successful year. Of course, I'm not saying this year is gonna end up as successful as last, either. I'm just sayin...

Trust me, this year will be ENTERTAINING if nothing else.

THIS IS OOOAKLAND!!!

by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 7, 2007 11:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

or...

those aliens from Space Jam might come back during the All-Star game and steal the skills of the players. Then we go undefeated, winning a playoff spot on the last game of the season.

Hey, anything can happen right?

by lightz0ut on Nov 8, 2007 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs