Matt Steinmetz Would Take Yao

by sloth11 on Dec 4, 2007 3:42 PM PST Comment 75 comments

Did anyone catch this guy last night during the broadcast when they were talking about Dwight Howard? They were hyping him up during the middle of the game at some point (perhaps during halftime?). They were about to end the little segment, when Jim Barnett asked Steinmetz who would you take if you could chose one player to start a franchise (knowing full well that they just spent an entire segment talking about Dwight Howard)?

Matt Steinmetz responds by saying.......

"I Would Take Yao Ming."

After listening to this, I was sitting with my jaw wide open in disbelief, while my roomate was on the floor rolling around laughing. Somebody, please tell me that this guy was joking. Because nobody, let alone a guy who is privilaged enough to be a reporter for sports, would every say they would pick Yao Ming over every other player in the NBA to start a franchise...

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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wow...

you obviously don't realize what you are saying...

Yao Ming is a franchise player more so than Dwight Howard. With Yao Ming on your team you are guaranteed a lot of money. You have people in Asia wiilling to pay to advertise with you and a lot of people who want to watch yao ming play. Yao Ming has commercials etc etc. He has great visibility. He is essentially a cash cow. From a business standpoint Matt made a really good decision. From a skill wise stand point. Yao Ming is really good maybe not on the same level as Dwight Howard, but its not like he sucks. He is a all star and deservedly so. I'd pick Yao Ming over any other player simply because he brings great exposure. NBA is a business you need franchise starters not just good players. Look at the Bucks with Yi.. No one cared about the Bucks when Yi wasn't on their team.

by saintdee on Dec 4, 2007 3:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

well

You'd make a ton of money with yao ming.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 4, 2007 3:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well...

IIRC, earlier this year OptionZero said if he could take anyone it would be Pau Gasol. Which is to say, give the guy a break, sometimes smart people say ill-considered crap in the heat of the moment.

My ill-considered "franchise-starters"...

Dwight Howard
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett (yeah, he's 32, but I'd still gladly build my franchise around him)
Tim Duncan (")
Chris Paul

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 4, 2007 3:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Also

If your roo-mate (sic) was actually rolling on the floor laughing, I'm guessing his brain may have been touched by more than Steinmetz' comments. Get that boy some pizza...

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 4, 2007 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Gasol

I could defend my Gasol decision, but as that is not the point of this thread I'll refrain.

All you gotta do is ask, though, and I'll give a long winded explanation.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 4, 2007 7:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, please

This diary could use some actual basketball talk...

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 4, 2007 7:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

ok

Ignoring money

Gasol is 27 (younger than Duncan, KG)
Gasol is a big (unlike Lebron, 'Melo, the PGs).

He has a back to the basket game as well as a face up game.

5 years prior to this, PER of 20+ (with 4 years of increase).

Career AST:TO ratio > 1, a rarity in big men.

70% FT shooter

1.9 BPG career

A guy like Howard or Amare will get more highlights due to superior athleticism, but Gasol is a far more polished product. Generally, I really hate guys that don't have the skill/mental portion of the game, the hairbrained mistakes bug me alot more than the ones due to lack of talent or raw athleticism.

As we saw last night, Howard can be defended and even a liability at times (7 TO's?). Gasol will never be as spectacular, but he'll probably make fewer mistakes. It's a Duncan v. Shawn Kemp argument to me.

As a corollary, I'm curious how much Howard will improve. When the Suns were ripping teams to shreds, people were saying Amare had an unlimited ceiling- IF he would just add some post moves, IF he would play some more defense, IF he added a consistent midrange J, THEN he'd be destined for unparalleled heights. Well, he hasn't really changed, has he? He's still lacking defensively, he still doesn't have a refined scoring game (he thrives, of course, thanks to the system). Will he ever get better, or is this it?

When you have a guy like Howard, they are so ridiciulous good because they are, plain and simple, physically better than everyone else. Whats the incentive to work on little things like passing out of double teams or planting your pivot foot before turning? It's human nature- when you can jump over your defender for a dunk, you don't really ever work on a baby hook, yanno? I'm not knocking Howard's work ethic, just pointing out the situation, I'm sure he's a great dude and committed teammate.

Now, this year Gasol is either hurt or plain sucking- I have no explanation for his downturn. Perhaps the faster pace is hurting him, as are his relatively youthful teammates, who knows.

The biggest drawback to Gasol is mobility- which is why I think pairing him with Milcic was a great idea. The problem is surrounding two guys who could do pretty well in the halfcourt with a squad of guys who love to run and can't play a lick of defense.

Part of me wonders how Memphis would fare if they still had a stud team defender like Battier in the front court; that'd be a little like San Antonio's front court mix (Duncan scores, Oberto does the dirty work on interior D, Bowen locks down a perimeter scorer). Lowry is a pretty good facilimile of Tony Parker.

If I were GM of the Grizz, I think I could do some things.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 4, 2007 8:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Gasol to stay or go?

With the way he's struggling this year and the fact that he may not fit in with their plans, do you think they move him at the deadline? And if so is he worth going after while Nellie is around?

I actually like him too (not as much as you of course) but I'm not sure if he'd be a good fit in our system. Then again he could be the kind of player you change your system for.

by olympicmike on Dec 4, 2007 8:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Gasol

The Chicago Trib (Sam Smith?) seems to think he's "lost and likely expendable" -- though I'm not registered there so I can't be sure.

http://www.hoopshype.com/rumors.htm (for Monday 12/3)

My question is: if I'm not sure I'd trade, say, Monta, Harrington, POB, and a first round pick for him, how can he be anywhere near the best player in the NBA?

P.S. -- what the F*CK is up with this site? I can't preview my posts anymore and it takes like three minutes for them to load. It's been this way off and on for months, and it's the only site I have the slightest problem with. Is it another one of those cheap retarded ad banners gumming things up? Do any other OSX/Safari users have this problem?

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 4, 2007 9:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

gasol

Oh, I wasn't at all thinking in terms of the Warriors- just on an abstract level.

He'd probably be a bad fit- he's having trouble in Memphis with their speed game, i can't imagine the trouble he'd have here. Any deal would require givin g up Harrington probably to make the money work, and right now Harrington fits alot better (esp. on defense).

If anything, Gasol needs to go to Chicago and play next to Ben Wallace.

Deng or Gordon seems like a small price to be for someone with actual low-post scoring- unfortunately I think Gordon is useless on the Grizz since they have Navarro and a buncha short guards already. Deng plays the same position as Gay and Miller, and both fit an uptempo game better than Loul does.

Maybe some 3 way, but they aren't my teams.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 4, 2007 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i like gasol

and think he's got a pretty nice all around game. i agree w/ ya on the point that Gasol has a much more refined game that Stoudemire and that Stoudemire's ceiling (as young as he is) may never reach where gasol's at. but i don't know if he's a franchise type player, given that he's been given the keys to the franchise for a minute and hasn't gone anywhere with it (though we can say its an issue with maturity and experience he has now than before) though taking them two a couple first round playoff knocks out with a dismal supporting cast is pretty commendable. He's a more than solid player, but he somehow lacks that take the game-over type instinct that other studs might have (as ambiguous as that might sound).

I'd probably go with Lebron given how he's playing now.

by dj fuzzylogic on Dec 5, 2007 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Gasol

What about the fact that he consisently chokes under pressure? Both domestically (NBA) and Internationally (FIBA and other Spanish leagues). I recall more than a fair share of stories about Gasol choking at the line in tight situations...or the way he absolutely disappeared in both of the Grizzlies playoff berths with Gasol as their centerpiece.

I know that's kind of a subjective approach to analyzing Gasol's game, but I'm always concerned with mental toughness in a player, especially if I were to start a franchise around them. Conversley, Dwight really hasn't been tested yet, aside from this year not a whole lot of winning has been expected out of him as a team leader. We'll see what he does this postseason. Good thread.

"Oooh, watch yo biceps Buk, watch yo biceps Bukie."

by tobin on Dec 5, 2007 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

choking

I don't follow int'l ball that closely, but my impression was that Spain, with Gasol, had won FIBA championships (or some other tourney?) before and consistently done well at the Olympics.

If the dude's taking his team far...

Remember Memphis a couple years ago was a consistent playoff team and very good defensive club (under Fratello, and i think Brown). Gasol was a starter on that team. It's bad luck they ran into PHX and SA (too lazy to remember the exact matchups) and lost to some uber competition.

Duncan seems to be an easy going, relaxed, unspectacular guy, but all he does is produce. No one talks about his "killer instinct", but wouldn't it be crazy to say that a guy with that many rings doesn't have it?

If Gasol had a little hardware (maybe he has some internationally?), then he'd get more publicity.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 5, 2007 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

International

Gasol has definitely done well internationally, I believe the championship you're referring to though (the most recent one for Spain) was won WITHOUT Gasol, as he broke his foot in the semi-finals. The Spanish team defeated Greece -- minus one Pau Gasol -- in the finals to claim the cup.

I agree with you about the Duncan analogy, he does nothing but win and goes about it in a rather unspectacular way, but as evidenced by his numerous rings Duncan clearly has that mean streak/nastiness/dog/killer edge/etc. in him, it just is not manifested through primal screams and chest pounds.

Gasol's certainly a solid player, does a lot of things on the court well, but all the positive numbers/statistics/+ & -'s in the world couldn't convince me to start my franchise around him. Just my two cents, good discussion.

"Oooh, watch yo biceps Buk, watch yo biceps Bukie."

by tobin on Dec 5, 2007 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i def think

duncan has "killer instinct." i don't mean to suggest that killer instinct means being "flashy" but what im suggesting is that theres a difference between Antawn Jamison's 20-10 and Duncan's 20-10, though im not quite sure how to explain it other than.....KILLER INSTINCT! i feel like gasol is closer to duncan than Jamison, tho not quite sure exactly.

by dj fuzzylogic on Dec 5, 2007 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think I can explain it

Jamison (career)
45.7% fg
8.4 rebounds/40 min.
0.4 blocks/40
35.9 defensive win shares

Duncan (career)
50.9% fg
12.7 rebounds/40
2.6 blocks/40
196.9 defensive win shares

Throw in the fact that Duncan can man up and generally neutralize the best big man on the other team, night in, night out...

After that, I'm sure the "killer instinct" comes into play.

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 5, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

bingo!

i wonder when they're going to start incorporating "killer instinct" into "potential."

i.e. "Has high potential for killer instinct ala Duncan."

"only moderate killer instinct. see video game for details."

by dj fuzzylogic on Dec 5, 2007 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

There's 20 and 10 and there's 20 and 10

How to explain the difference between Duncan and Jamison's 20/10? Duncan does it on fewer shots through a higher FG% and better ability to get to the line and takes fewer minutes on the court to grab those 10. The numbers alone show that Duncan is at least twice the player that Jamison is. No need to invoke anything beyond the numbers.

by jae on Dec 5, 2007 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

An addendum

I lucked into getting Howard on my fantasy team last year and, after the Magic's spectacular start, I became an interested observer. I can tell you that in the year I've paid attention to him, Howard has gotten much, much better.

He was essentially the world's greatest garbage man last season; he seemed to get all his points on put-backs and tips. He basically never shot from outside the paint. This year, I don't know, he seems more intelligent with his play. He runs in their offense better, he's developing a little 10-12 foot jumper, and his free throws look much cleaner, even though he still stinks (think Beans here). My point is, I don't think he's like Amare in this respect. He's 21, he practices constantly, and he's the closest thing to 40/20 Laker Shaq since, well, 40/20 Laker Shaq. I think he's probably the league's hand's down most dominant player in a season or two.

by Tenorca on Dec 5, 2007 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Gasol

I drafted him in the first round of my fantasy (gun to head) and have been watching him very closely on NBALP. Option's definitely right about the pace negatively impacting Gasol. Memphis has a new philosophy similar to us and PHX's - take the first good shot available. Often they shoot before Gasol makes it past half-court. Gasol was quoted recently saying that he's never shot more jumpers in his career. He also said that he recognizes that the offense has changed and he's going to try to change his approach by crashing the boards more. He had a good game today against the Rockets with 22 and 12 so hopefully things are on the upswing.
Also Gasol is playing through injuries. He has a bad back and I forget what else. I'm not sure how much they've affected him, but he's not 100%. Rudy Gay's emergence has also hurt Gasol's touches.
I would definitely build a franchise around Gasol. I'd probably rank franchise-starters as:
1. Lebron
2. Man Beast
3. Kobe
4. D Wade
Not really sure whether I'd put Gasol or Dirk next. I think KG and TD are too old to put above any of these guys.

Yao is not really close unless you're considering things besides basketball. He's too much of a liability on defense. Adelman pulls Yao for offense/defense substitutions late in games when he can. That's not really franchise center material.

It's almost like the Warriors have 6 guys out there... they always have a guy open! - Jon Barry commentating game 3 last year

by gsw4life on Dec 5, 2007 11:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i thought they were asking about any center

and he responded with Yao.

by djchuckdeez on Dec 4, 2007 4:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I dont care

about the bucks..I only care if we DESTROY their souls tomorrow and make them cry all the way home.:)

by highflya on Dec 4, 2007 4:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Wut are u talkin bout?

Both are great franchise starters, but if you really want to start good you have to start with a really established center. That 7'6 height is rare, and something very useful. Matt is right imo, to pick Yao over Dwight. They both are fantastic players, but I think Yao would be better.

Stop hating on Matt Steinmetz.

Ballin

by ballin on Dec 4, 2007 5:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Steinmetz is knowledgable..

but he doesn't belong on TV. he always seems at a loss for words and ends up saying dumb ish. plus his post-game interviews are horrible. he asks poor questions..

glenn kueper >> steinmetz

by JudBooshlur on Dec 4, 2007 5:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

In all honesty

They were talking nothing but basketball skill. So in saying I'd take Yao Ming for the aspect of making money is out of context. And also, they were not just talking about centers. After Steinmetz and Barnett said who they would take, Fitzgerald (who sounded like he was equally in disbelief) said uhh...I'd take LeBron. I have nothing against Yao. I think he is top 3 centers easily. But that's all.

Sure, China will make you a lot of money, but if I remember correctly, last year he did not have the highest selling jersey in China. And also, he doesnt have near the amount of endorsements in the US as LeBron does. LeBron is much more marketable than Yao.

My original argument has nothing to do with the fact that I would take Dwight Howard over Yao. Im just amazed how someone would take Yao to start a franchise with, knowing that every other player is on the market.

by sloth11 on Dec 4, 2007 5:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

cmon man

its just another basketball analysts opinion. sure hes not the best but were only a little part of fsn. hoo would u rather have than him, mike tirico? we already got 3 great broadcasters on tv and radio in bob, jim, and tim so i guess with mike, we can have a balance of good and bad lol.

by GSwarrior on Dec 4, 2007 5:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i dont really care

I usually dont mind him at all. I just came on here to see if anyone else shared the same views as I did, which obviously, no one does, as everyone seems to think what I am saying is wrong. Thats all.

by sloth11 on Dec 4, 2007 5:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nah

I for one think you're basically right that it would be nuts to take Yao over LeBron or Howard. Where you probably erred is in calling your diary "Matt Steinmetz is stupid." It just sounds juvenile, especially when you don't provide any analysis to suggest that you're any smarter.

A better title would have "what NBA player would you start a franchise with?" You could have introduced the diary with Steinmetz' comment, and even added a snarky comment or two thereupon. I'm sure the overall responses would have been a lot more interesting and less defensive.

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 4, 2007 6:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Heh

I see the title has already been changed. Whether by you or the mods, nice move.

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 4, 2007 6:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

ya he didn't have the best selling jersey...

T-Mac did. Rockets still cash

It's almost like the Warriors have 6 guys out there... they always have a guy open! - Jon Barry commentating game 3 last year

by gsw4life on Dec 6, 2007 7:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I apologize

for the bad title. My bad

by sloth11 on Dec 4, 2007 6:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ah well

Live and learn. I personally like the topic, and agree with your take. In fact, if we're not talking about who you'd want on the Dubs, Yao seems like a particularly bad choice. He's just too slow to thrive in Nellieball. I'd go so far as to say I'd rather have Biedrins than Yao on this team.

Meanwhile, imagine LeBron James as our starting 3 or 4, running the floor with Baron, Jax, Monta, Harrington, and AB...? [shudders]

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 4, 2007 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm surprised anyone would take yao over howard

sure yao's more polished offensively, but defense is the higher percentage route to winning championships and howard is a beast back there. he covers up rashard & jameer's extra crappy defense and the sucky rebounding of the aforementioned two along w/ turkoglu.

by the evil monkey on Dec 4, 2007 6:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

does anyone notice

that steinmetz always appears to be hella drunk?

by tajbled on Dec 4, 2007 6:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Steinmetz is on crack

Can Howard have off games? Sure. Can Yao? Sure. But night in night out Howard's becoming one of the real near unstoppable forces.

Howard rebounds substantially more Howard takes fewer shots and scores more points. He's not as high a FT% shooter, but he scores more points from the line than Yao because he gets to the line more often despite having taken fewer shots. Shoots less, scores more. Who cares about "polish" until they start awarding style points.

If the argument is about constructing a basketball team and marketing is left out of the picture, there's no responsible case that Yao is better than Howard. Howard simply does more for his team at both ends.

by jae on Dec 4, 2007 9:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Rebounds per 40 mins.

career/season to date

Yao 11.2/11.1
Howard 13.1/15.7 (!!!!!)

But, come on, Yao is seven inches taller and 50 pounds heavier! Size matters!

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 4, 2007 9:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

(that's what she said)

If the size difference was such a big advantage for Yao, he has not done as much with it as he should. Either that or Howard is so ridiculously more talented that he transcends the difference in size with an advantage of skill and speed or whatever. Yao is the taller player, the heavier player. Howard is the better player.

by jae on Dec 5, 2007 5:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

nothing to do with Howard

but can you believe the Orlando front office went out and signed Lewis to the max they did? I ws laughing about it when it happened, but after looking at Magic salaries, they're even more screwed than I thought they were before.

Nelson, Howard, and Lewis are locked up long term to make 40 mil a year. With Howard in his only extension, you can do a lot better than that for 40 million.

by BingBluNT on Dec 4, 2007 11:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The smart move

Would have been to sit tight and not sign any max deals till LeBron's contract runs out after 2009-10, or at least make sure any big deals they sign expire after that season. Then throw everything they have at LeBron.

LeBron + Howard (ages 24-30) + a bunch of cheap, well-chosen role players = multiple NBA championships.

Instead they get Rashard Lewis, a pretty one-dimensional player to begin with, leaving his prime years just as Howard is entering his, on a max contract that's already completely unmoveable. Well done.

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 5, 2007 3:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd take Yao

Here's why: when he's healthy, he is a much more well-rounded and self-sufficient player. Yes, Dwight is an athletic beast and an out-of-this-world rebounder, but he does not have a reliable offensive game other than putbacks and filthy dunks. If I'm building a team, I'd look for a guy who can be the #1 option, and it is abundantly clear that at this point in time, Dwight is not that guy. Not saying he can't be or anything like that, but there's very little evidence to the contrary.

My Top-5:

Yao Ming- People forget how good he was last year before he got hurt
Lebron James- Not a big, but his court vision, unselfishness, and ceiling are astonishing for someone with his athletic attributes.
Greg Oden- This is the one that will draw heat. Saw him in the Final 4 and I've never been more impressed with a player. Has the instincts, and his toolbox is scary considering his age. He could end up being a much better offensive player than people imagine.
Dwight Howard- Not a #1 option, but a damn fine player and person to have around, even if he does love Jesus more than makes me comfortable.
Pau- Polished and can really do well in the right system, as he has done almost his entire career. A little moody sometimes, but that happens.

by dprodigy19 on Dec 4, 2007 10:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

The Key Point

"When he's healthy" Dwight has never missed a game yet in his NBA career and doesn't seem like he's going to slow down any time soon. Meanwhile, Yao has already missed a whole bunch of games. So in terms of who you want your franchise centered around, I wouldn't want a player that may only give me 48 games a year.

The J-RICH show is on his way out...=(

by dajrichshow on Dec 4, 2007 10:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

reliable?

I'm definitely not forgetting how good Yao was for a while last year. It just wasn't as good as Howard is now.

I think the classification of "#1 option" tends to be a red herring. The points Howard gets are points that will almost always be there for you and they come without detracting from the rest of the team's offense. Putbacks and filthy dunks are worth 2 points each. If you somehow manage to get 17 chances at these a game and make 10 of those 17, you've got a reliable offensive game, even when people insist that a jumper that hits its mark less often is somehow or other more of a 'reliable' offensive game. If the dunks and putbacks were easy, everyone would score 23 a night on 60% shooting.

by jae on Dec 5, 2007 5:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

People say: "Yeah, but they're a jumpshooting team, they'll never make it through the whole playoffs because they'll run cold in one series"

People NEVER say: "Yeah, but they rely on rebounding, dunks, and putbacks, they'll never make it through the whole playoffs because they'll run cold in one series"

You'd definitely need to surround Howard with good shooters (which Orlando has done) and somebody who can create, but you need to do that with EVERY center. That's kinda the idea of basketball.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Dec 6, 2007 7:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's a tough call

from a "business" standpoint ie., fan-base, public profile etc, it's YAO handsdown.

from a "who's got more game?" view, the scale start to lean in D-Ho's favor purely on his athleticism, youth, potential and an intangible factor that critics have always questioned in Yao - aggressiveness.

what if... you plucked Yao and D-Ho out of their teams and swapped them? Would Yao/Lewis or D-Ho/T-Mac be owning the league? I might lean towards the latter pairing just because an aggressive D-Ho might bring out a slowly fading aggressive/confident T-Mac which would be scary.

"Hey, i'm a warrior fan so i'm naturally pessimistic." - Kenntoe

by Anomaly on Dec 5, 2007 10:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Swapping Yao/Howard

Yao on the magic would suck. The Rockets surrounded Yao with: perimeter stopper (battier), banger (Hayes), veteran backup (Dikembe), and versatile sidekick (Scola). That helped make his life considerably easier.

if Yao had Lewis/Turkuglu, the lack of mobility and physicality on defense would be devastating.

Likewise, I think Howard would be a horrible fit under Rick Adleman, who (like Nellie), puts his bigman on the elbow or high post and demands that they pass the rock. Howard passing = hypermegafailtown!

He'd still be spectacular, but the turnovers might just double. Has anyone averaged 10 TO a game?

Now, Howard under Jeff Van Gundy, a slow it down, grind it out coach much like Brian Hill...with the right mix of guys...i dunno.

I don't like running the offense through Howard in the post- he would be much better served in a PHX system where they aren't just dumping it into him and waiting for open kick out 3ps.

The PHX system gets Amare in motion cutting AT the basket, where his ridiculous athleticism is best used. Nash passing to Howard- if you though Amare had highlights, th is would be nuts. Because Howard plays much more defense than Amare (Better board work, more blocks), the Suns would just be unstoppable. And with Howard and Marion, they'd be an elite rebounding team (which Orlando is not...they couldn't even outboard US).

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 5, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Steinmetz is shocking

Sure he knows a lot about the team, but so do a lot of people, most of whom would be better on TV. He needs to go back to beat writing.

by SpreeForThree on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I love this thread ... and honestly ...

I'd still take Yao. I like Howard a lot! I think he's a future MVP of the league alongside Yao.
But no need to regurgitate what everyeone else said, I would start a franchise around Yao.

My List in no particular order:

Yao
Lebron
Dwight
Wade

by YaoButtaMing on Dec 5, 2007 1:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

What About

Kevin Durant? Haven't seen his name mentioned here but he's got all kinds of talent. He's got to improve his defense, rebounding, and put on some muscle, but he's such a gifted scorer already (although the Dubs did lock him up). His FG% and 3p% are too low right now but he'll improve on those. Add in that he's only 19 and he should be in the conversation. Give him 3 years and at 22, he'll be a monster. Amazingly, Howard is just 22 (Dec 8), James is 23 (Dec 30). Ridiculous.

Here's my list:
LeBron: Can't ignore what he did last postseason
Durant: Just too much potential and could be that once in a generation player
Howard: He's a beast and I'm not sure who can stop him

by Fantasy Junkie on Dec 5, 2007 2:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Durant?

Durant has much, much, much to prove. So far, he's shown that he can score points inefficiently, that he doesn't rebound like he did in college and that the move to make him into a wing player hasn't done anything for him. I don't consider scoring a whole lot of points by putting up a whole bunch of shots gifted, unless the gift is to have a great ppg total on a losing team. I don't know what his potential is, but what he's done so far hasn't suggested once in a generation. Right now he's looking more and more like Glenn Robinson, a high scorer who never made a difference.

by jae on Dec 5, 2007 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Definitely

I'd agree with you and say after his first 18 games that he has a long long way to go. His shooting percentages are poor (except for free throws) but I think that's a matter of shot selection. I think PJ needs to crack down on some of those shots he takes and get him to play smarter. He's being treated like the golden child. Once he improves on the shot selection, hopefully the percentages go up. If not, maybe my belief that he's a gifted scorer is horribly wrong.

His rebounding leaves a lot to be desired, but I think if he adds a little muscle, those numbers will rise. He can't just out jump the guys in the pros. By the end of the year, I think he'll be averaging close to 5.5 per game.

He's still learning how to play the pro game but I believe he'll be a superstar.

If I had to take one player right now to build a franchise around, he'd be in the conversation, well my conversation at least. It's a huge risk taking him over proven players such as LeBron (who's my #1), DHoward, etc. But based on his potential or at least his projections, I wouldn't mind building my franchise around him.

by Fantasy Junkie on Dec 5, 2007 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

shot selection

The problem with attributing all of Durant's problems to 'shot selection' seems to treat that as if it's something easy to remedy. I suspect to some degree, it's like having a good eye in baseball. Guys who can't draw walks or take bad shots can improve, but more often than not they don't.

His shooting isn't something otherworldly. He shot well from long range in college, but not well enough to live by the jumper alone. Not well enough to justify 20 shots a night when only 8 are likely to fall.

by jae on Dec 5, 2007 4:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Basically

At 19 Durant is not a good player. At 19, Lebron, Howard and Kobe were. Right now, there isn't proof that Durant will be at their level. It's speculation.

by San Francisco Slim on Dec 5, 2007 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My List

1. Howard:
Agree with Sleepy's #1. Most important aspect of his game, is that Howard has yet to turn 22. He's going to be better than Shaq. Better attitude - I don't ever see him getting out of shape or dogging it - more versitle game.

2. James
Not even 23 and probably the best player in the game right now.

3. Paul
Underrated because he plays in a small market. You're talking Nash, Stockton, except that they didn't even start until they were 24, and he is 22. Injuries (or lack of) will be the key to his career.

4. Bynum
Yes, you heard me right. Just turned 20, hardly older than Duran or Oden, has started playing over 30 minutes a game, and his PER is over 20.00. Has progressively gotten better and Jackson has probably played him less than other coaches would, (except, of course, Nellie). Bynum doesn't appear to be a head case, and if he's not, the sky's the limit, as long as he keeps in shape - he's got a BIG body.

5. Bosh
Of the non-Lebron 2004 class, I give him the nod over Wade and Carmelo, because of age (23), position, defense and potential, but the other two 04ers are right up there.

by San Francisco Slim on Dec 5, 2007 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My top 5 franchise players

Baron Davis
Monta Ellis
Stephen Jackson
Al Harrington
Andris Biedrins

ok just kidding. Seriously now I would take Baron if he could guarantee me health. but here is my list.

1-Dwight Howard
A big man as dominant as he isn't as common as a dominant forward or guard IMO.

2-Lebron
It's... Lebron

3-Oden
I dunno guys, I'm not sure what surgery was needed on him but if he can bounce back from it next season... he can be the one.

4-Durant
He's an unrefined awesome scorer as a rookie. Imagine how he will be by the all-star break or 5 years into his career.

5-Chris Paul
He's the type of superstar that you can build a true team around. He's selfless almost to a fault but can score and take over a game when need be. He's going to be the top PG in the league before he retires.

You'll be back.

by WHYarenasWHY on Dec 5, 2007 3:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I agree with your list

except that Durant is not off to a good start and Oden is disabled. To say that they will be top franchise starters is a leap of faith, IMO.

by San Francisco Slim on Dec 5, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome?

Durant's scoring is unrefined, but it's not awesome.

by jae on Dec 5, 2007 4:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

By that line of thought

Here are my franchise starters:

1. OJ Mayo
He's gonna be the best basketball player since LeBron.

That kid from Scoop Jackson's story the other day. 12 years old, and his middle school team thinks he's really good. Can he keep the streets from calling?
Kevin Love

A little excerpt from his webpage: "Kevin Love has shown a skill level that is absolutely unheard of amongst big men". That's gotta mean something right?

4. Kevin Durant
He scores 20PPG as a rookie! I don't care that he takes 17 shots to do it, or that he doesn't rebound or play defense. He's awesome!

4. LeBron James
I know, I know, he's kinda old, but let's give it to him. He's almost averaging 30/8/8, something only MJ has done.

Ok, that was a bit tongue in cheek, and maybe a little harsh. But seriously folks, you cannot start a franchise with hype. Durant is probably going to be good someday, but remember that people said the same things about Kwame Brown, Stromile Swift, and countless others.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Dec 6, 2007 8:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

BTW Dwight Howard and T-Mac

Would be ridiculous. I would like to see those two against the celt's big three. It'd be close.

You'll be back.

by WHYarenasWHY on Dec 5, 2007 3:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Paul vs Williams

As two of the better young PG's in the league, a lot of people so far have said CP3. I'm curious as to why. DWill tore it up last year in the playoffs and he's having another nice season. I know he's got a lot more to work with as far as teammates, but he makes that offense go. He's got a big body so it doesn't look like he'll break down and his shot is automatic.

I'm not sure who I'd take but why Paul or DWill? Paul may be more talented. Deron showed he can perform on the biggest stage. Are Paul's injury concerns legit? If the injury concerns are legit, I'd take Deron in a heartbeat. If not, I'm not sure which way I go.

by Fantasy Junkie on Dec 5, 2007 3:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Stats

Paul actually has much better stats. He's in the top FIVE in the league in PER, and his stats his first two years were outstanding, WAY better than Williams.

Also, Williams has better teammates and has gotten a lot more airtime. How may times have you actually seen Paul play? The Hornets are never on TV. Paul is a better play maker, a better shooter and better at steals. Don't get me wrong, Williams is the better scorer and is really good and really clutch.

Also, look what happens to New Orleans when Paul is out. They're much worse. But that maybe his problem. He seems to get injured a lot. Williams, a big durable guy, may end up having the better career.

But Paul is a young man's Stockton/Nash, Williams is young man's Billups.

by San Francisco Slim on Dec 5, 2007 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

How do you compare them defensively? Deron doesn't have nearly the steals numbers that Paul does, but in terms of locking people up, how do they compare? Defense isn't all about steals and blocks, but perhaps Paul is just the better man and help defender. I thought Deron did a good job on defense against Baron in the games against the Warriors, but I just don't watch enough of either to know who is better. Is there a way to measure how good someone is defensively?

by Fantasy Junkie on Dec 5, 2007 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

2007-08 PG PER

(only players above 30 mpg included)

Chris Paul 27.41
Tony Parker 25.16
Steve Nash 24.07
Chauncey Billups 23.02
Baron Davis 22.01
Deron Williams 19.81
Devin Harris 18.35
Jason Kidd 16.73
Gilbert Arenas 16.35
Jameer Nelson 16.05

(note: Monta Ellis: 17.29, better than Kidd!)

I'm not totally sold on the metric, but it does more or less support my (and others') subjective impressions.

For one thing, it puts the lie to the notion that "Baron sucks because he can't shoot"...

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 5, 2007 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Paul and Williams

"Wins produced", a metric that correlates with the probability of winning a game much better than PER, also likes Paul more than Williams. Williams is a good player, playing rather well, but Paul outperforms him.

by jae on Dec 5, 2007 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Paul Williams?

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm sure my two or three fellow Gen-Xers on this site are chuckling...

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 5, 2007 5:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Is that a Paul Williams photo from "Phantom of the Paradise"? To all you youngin's out there...that movie is the business. Check it out, very trippy.

Let's Go Oakland! Gas, Brake, Dip.

by OaktownFunk on Dec 8, 2007 10:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

CP3

Has that superstar killer instinct that Deron hasn't quote shown yet. He is a consistent contributor - a damn good one at that - but if it were necessary for a player to take over a game, I just feel CP3 would be able to do it better than Deron.

You'll be back.

by WHYarenasWHY on Dec 5, 2007 3:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Yao.

He's more refined and has had bigger offensive games than Howard. He may not get blocks but he takes up space and can alter shots simply by being there. The W's exposed him, but how? With Harrington 3s, not by killing him inside.

Howard is a phenomenal beast, Shaq like in that he's simply so physical. However, he's got no go to move and there is a chance he will not ever get one. The thing about Shaq that he gets little credit for is that his offensive game exploded beyond just dunks and put backs. His footwork and little jump hooks and banks around the basket in his prime was awesome. Its sad to see him now because he just does not move and cut like he used to on the Lakers. When he got the ball flashing to the middle of the paint, he was unstoppable, and not with just dunks. When Howard gets that part of the game, then he'll top Yao.

Nothing better than "The City".

by philsmith75 on Dec 5, 2007 4:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Team Records

What about their respective team records?

16-4 and 9-8. I know Houston has had a tough schedule, but don't they also have better players? It seems to me they do.

Isn't winning what it's all about?

by San Francisco Slim on Dec 5, 2007 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My Franchise Players

Lebron James - His all-round game does it for me, he blocks shots, is big in clutch situations - hits lots of game winners, dishes out lots of assists, is an excellent rebounder for his position, carries his team while being unselfish ...
Adonal Foy.. I mean Dwight Howard
Yao Ming
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul

I rate Howard slightly above Yao because he is more dominant in games and he is more energetic/explosive. It was close though, Yao's FT% is much better and this does make a difference - at the end of a close game, for example, you want to have a good rebounder who shoots a good FT%, otherwise, you will miss free throws or not get the rebound if you don't have a good rebounder on the floor because none of the ones you have got shoot a good FT%.

by zaki on Dec 5, 2007 4:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I kind of agree...

But why is it that teams who have an absolutely physically dominant rebounding / interior scoring / interior defending machine -- be it Howard, (young) Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Chamberlain, Russell, et al. -- always seem to be, you know, awesome teams ... even when said machines mostly clang their free throws?

by Sleepy Freud on Dec 5, 2007 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Winning

Because top inside men, dominate on both ends of the court. That's the key to winning. I would put Howard in that category.

by San Francisco Slim on Dec 6, 2007 9:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

Guards and ball-handlers are more exciting and fun to watch (which is why Stern is trying to change the rules), but dominant big men win basketball games by altering shots on the defensive end, grabbing rebounds, and consistently make the easy shots when your guards are missing.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Dec 6, 2007 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

no love for Wade???

Despite him being injured this year, he's put up Jordan-esque type numbers early on in his career.. he's already won a championship and shown that "killer instinct". I don't know if he's more of a franchise player than Lebron or Dwight Howard, but he's definitely gotta be in the discussion.

by jlagace on Dec 6, 2007 11:25 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Not that I'd base a franchise on him

but Josh Smith is a beast. If he learned how to play smart he could dominate the NBA on both ends of the floor. If he stopped taking 3s and just drove to the basket he would be a huge star. As for a franchise starter I'd take Lebron, if you gave him a decent sidekick, your team would be in the finals pretty much every year.

by Elcold on Dec 6, 2007 11:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs