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REPORT: Kurt Thomas Traded to the Sonics

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=txsunssonicstrade&prov=st&type=lgns

The articles states that not only does seattle get Kurt Thomas but they also get 2 first round picks. Meanwhile Phoenix gets a conditional second rounder.  If I read the article correctly, Phoenix is getting fleeced.  Is that what it would cost us to get rid of Foyle?  Something sounds shady to me.  Any comments?

Details:

the Seattle SuperSonics added some veteran muscle to their front line Friday, acquiring forward Kurt Thomas from the Phoenix Suns. Seattle also received a pair of future first-round draft picks in 2008 and 2010 while Phoenix was sent a conditional second-round pick in 2008 as part of the deal.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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wow
looks like a good deal for seattle.

If i were the warriors i'd rather keep the two picks and have Foyle for his two remaining years.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Jul 20, 2007 11:20 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

pure salary dump...
phoenix is over the luxury tax mark and just wanted to rid themselves of kurt's 8 mill.  He was an expiring deal and has value but they can't afford to take on players considering how much over the tax they are.

by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 20, 2007 11:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah it was a salary dump
The suns get a trade exception worth about 8 million.

by racsan on Jul 20, 2007 11:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

draft picks
I could understand one 1st round pick in a salary dump trade, but two? I hope this doesn't give them a better shot a KG with that exception.

by raypress23 on Jul 20, 2007 11:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

WTF?
Is their any clearer indication that Sarver is a tight a$$ with his money?  Two first rounders?  From this draft where they gave away Fernandez and now with these first rounders, it looks like Pheonix is screwing the future movement.  Nash isn't a spring chicken.  That just blows my mind.

Ws should have gotten in on it(Foyle and two firsts, two seconds to Seattle, Thomas to GSW) I wouldn't mind seeing Thomas in a W uniform.

by belli nellie on Jul 20, 2007 11:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This has nothing to do with KG...
why trade Kurt Thomas (8 mill expiring contract) and two firsts to the Suns when you could just send him to the Twolves as part of a KG package?  Thomas' expiring contract is exactly what Mchale wants.  You know that he would also love those two first rounders.

by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 20, 2007 11:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

sure did leave Phx light
on inside players though, hope y'r right - if you are, this trade plus the Lakers resigning of Mihm may leave Minn w/few other KG suitors ...

by hardcore on Jul 20, 2007 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Diff between Seattle and Minn
Late first round picks (and that's what Phoenix is most likely giving up) are rarely worth anything.  IF McHale has a brain (still a debate on that one) he'd realize that.  I suspect that Seattle insisted on the 2 rather than one for exactly that reason.  Next year's pick is likely to be useless It's a salary you have to pay for a couple of years for a player who, in all likelihood, won't be any good.  So to get value out of the $8 million they'll now pay to Thomas, Seattle wants something better than Phoenix's probably worthless pick.  They want the future.  If something goes wrong, say Nash gets injured or retires and Stoudemire's knee problem becomes chronic, Diaw takes up winemaking and an alergic reaction to the grapes leaves him unable to play, the picks, especially the 2010 might be better, so it's still a gamble.

For Seattle, since they're not giving up players, those picks are good gambles.  But for Minn, if they're giving up Garnett, it's a different equation.  Thomas is an expiring contract.  They'd get that space if they let Garnett walk though, so it's not really a plus by itself.  They need young talent from Phoenix to make it worthwhile, since picks from Phoenix probably aren't worth much, certainly not next year.  

by jae on Jul 20, 2007 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand what you are saying...
although I tend to disagree with your philosophy on late 1st rounders..I think late 1st rounders are still very valuable..good gm's find diamonds with these late picks (i have a feeling Presti's day's with the Spurs will help him find some quality players with the Suns' late picks.)  I agree that Minny wants young players but that is why I felt KT was so valuable for the Suns if they wanted to get KG while keeping Amare.   Young players have small contracts and an expiring 8 mill like KT is huge in a Kg trade.

by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 20, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

luck and odds
Good GMs do find value with late first rounders, though I suspect luck has a tremendous amount of influence here.

Good GMs also find talent in the second round and with undrafted non-roster players.  I'm not sure that there's evidence that the late first round, where you've got a guaranteed contract in hand really has a higher success rate than the 2nd round or non-roster invitees.  

Would Minn really be better off with a guy taken at 25 who gets a contract no matter what over bringing in several guys who weren't drafted?  I'm not saying I know the answer, but the overall rate of success of late first rounders suggests that a) luck is important and b) if you can spot talent, you can spot it elsewhere too.  Other than Garnett (again, luck is important) who has McHale spotted?  

Losing Garnett is going to be a tough sell to the fans in Minn.  A 25th overall pick won't win much love at the box office.

by jae on Jul 20, 2007 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This might be
a late push for KG with adding a third team for the necessary pieces for Phoenix. They're in an even more "win now" mode than the Warriors are.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Jul 20, 2007 12:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

good point
ya, they have to GFIN with Nash & Co. plus that TE allows them to do just what we've been talking about with taking back bad contracts

besides Phx is thin without Thomas now:

Boris Diaw            
Shawn Marion            
Amare Stoudemire    

and they'd have to move one of those, I'd think, to land KG anyway, no?

by hardcore on Jul 20, 2007 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
they would have to move one of them and most likely it would have to be Amare, I don't see Minny giving up KG unless Amare is included. Which in my mind, I wouldn't trade KG for Amare simply because he's a beast and he's got 12 good years left to KG's maybe 4 at the most.

by J Rich 4 MVP on Jul 20, 2007 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

on the realgm celtics board
their "insider" said PHX is now offering Marion to Boston for Theo, Green, Bassy and Gomes. Theo and Green would then be packaged with Boris Diaw to Minny for KG. Minny would also get a pick.

This might be a last ditch effort seeing as how it is higly likely that Minny has already agreed to send him elsewhere. Although this is all unconfirmed mumbo jumbo. although i have been hearing similar things on two different boards by two different posters.

August 6th--we will see if something happens.

I'm already sad to see Brandon go.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Jul 20, 2007 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds fishy.
If this rumor has legs, it's going to take a while.  If Phoenix acquires Green and Radliff in a trade, they cannot package them up as part of a larger deal for several months.  They can trade them as individual pieces, but cannot turn them around immediately.  Either it's a three team deal worked out simultaneously, or it's something they've got in long range plans, or it's something penned by an 'insider' who made something up without actually understanding the rules governing player movement in the league.  

by jae on Jul 20, 2007 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

whoops
it would be a three way deal, no waiting needed. but its all just talk. but usually where there's smoke, there's fire. And both Minny and Boston seem to be very hot.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Jul 20, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why for PHX?
Since they're serious about contending, it makes little sense to get rid of a veteran big man who is arguably their best post defender and a solid rebounder. He's also an expiring contract so he does not pose any future financial detriment.

To also throw in FIRST ROUND draft picks is mindboggling.

For those that have called Cohan cheap in the past...be glad we're not giving away multiple draft picks for absolutely nothing. They've traded away at least 4 firsts now, all to sign crap like Marcus Banks. Robert Sarver sucks.

by OptionZero on Jul 20, 2007 12:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

hear thunder from North?
 Sonics now hold five first-round picks in the next three drafts on top of this year's haul

by hardcore on Jul 20, 2007 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I Don't get it
Somebody got screwed over here.  in the playoffs, Kurt Thomas was able to hold his own against Tim Duncan, surprisingly.

I can understand the salary dump part.  But the two first round draft picks part is straight up ridiculous.  It's not like Kurt Thomas' expiring contract is much of a burden to the Sonics at this point anyway.

by jlagace on Jul 20, 2007 1:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe a burden.
What's the going rate for worthless draft picks?  Gotta figure that Thomas isn't worth much to Seattle, but they still have to pay his salary.  $8 million here and there and all of a sudden, it's real money.  Based on the Forbes reports, Seattle turned a profit of $3.5 million last year, so a salary like Thomas's can be the difference between being in the red or the black.  It's still a business, and especially for a team unlikely to be competitive this year, Seattle probably wants to make some money, or at least lose less of it.  So they'll want some compensation for risking their entire profit margin plus some from last year.  

If I were Seattle's GM, I wouldn't give $8million away for a late first round draft choice, which is what they'll get.  Not all first round choices are created equal.  Late first rounders are pretty much worthless, so the lone pick would have been a bad deal for SEA.  I'd have insisted on the second one (in 3 years) that, should Phoenix's fortunes turn, which given Nash's age could really happen, could be a good pick.

by jae on Jul 20, 2007 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

First Round Picks are Worthless?
You dont know what you are talking about.  Every single draft there are STARS drafted in the late first or even sometimes early second.  It never hurts to have extra draft picks especially if you are a team like Seattle who is rebuilding from the ground up.  I always felt that the college stars that dont really have a PRO game/body are usually picked up in the late first.  Guys like Josh Howard, Luther Head, Jarrett Jack, Kevin Martin, Varejao.  Just to name the first few that came to my head are late firsts.  Not to mention teh possibility that nash could get hurt for a year and then phx would suck and be in the lottery.  PHX Fouled!

by Dubs4Life on Jul 20, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Odds
I suspect strongly that I do know what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about odds and probabilities and the relative finances involved.

I'm not disputing that there are good late round picks.  I'm saying that most of them aren't good.  Throw as many names as you can find.  I'm certain I can come up with twice as many flops picked in the same slot.  The list of names doesn't prove that late first round picks are going to be good.  It just says that they aren't all flops.

There are always good players at the back of the draft.  There's usually good players in the second round and as non-roster invitees.  But odds don't favor a late first round pick being any good and odds are important  (unless one is a fool who doesn't understand statistics, 'invests' in lottery tickets and decides that putting the deed to the ranch on the roulette wheel is sound financial management).  I tend to think that talent evaluation has a bunch to do with it, but so does luck, and, based on the number of flops to success stories, luck probably has as much to do with it as anything.  MOST late first round picks don't wind up being any good.  Is this because the talent scouts are all terrible, or because there's luck involved?  

If a team is banking on late round draft picks improving them, they're taking a big gamble.  Sure, someone wins the lottery.  Sure, a particular number comes up on the roulette wheel, slot machines pay out big every so often, but they're still the fool's bet.  

It might not hurt (much--you do have to pay a guaranteed salary) to have a late first round pick, but it probably doesn't help much.  In the business of basketball, teams want to make money, and having Thomas around for a year at $8million has a real cost ($8million!) to the Sonics, an amount more than what they made in profit last year.  Is it worth turning a loss for a late first rounder?  Maybe you think it is.  Maybe you feel that a team's net profits are worth what's probably a ten to one shot of getting a guy who can actually get off the bench in the Association.  Personally, were I a GM, it wouldn't be worth nearly that much, but hey, that's just me )(and my burden of understanding statistics and probability).

Nelson traded three future firsts to get Webber because he believed with Webber those picks would be late first rounders and he believed he could find equal talent in the CBA or elsewhere.  Based on his record for non-roster invitees, I'd say he's probably right.  The nice thing about those guys is that you're not waiting to see who is out there with one shot at it.  You don't have to risk a guaranteed contract if they suck, can't make the team in camp, whatever.  He certainly wasn't going to pay $8 million for something he thought he could get for nothing.

by jae on Jul 20, 2007 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If a team is banking on late round draft picks ...
...  improving them, they're taking a big gamble - perhaps like Bellinelli being able to step in "fill" JRich's shoes? Ya, I'd say so! Sure hope there's another shoe dropping sometime this month ...

by hardcore on Jul 20, 2007 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Poor planning?
The only thing that I can think of is that ownership must have said "we will not pay luxury tax this year...make it happen". This had to be a completely desperate salay dump. There are not many ways to get under Lux tax in the offseson before you start paying it. You need to find a team able to take a contract without giving one back with isn't easy (under the cap or holding a TPE). So maybe the Sonics really had them over a barrel. This trade obviously makes no sense basketball wise for the Suns.

Question for the cap experts. Does this in fact help the suns avoid Lux tax this year or do they have to wait for the TPE to expire?

by olympicmike on Jul 20, 2007 1:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This year
It lets them avoid it this year. The TPE doesn't count against the cap unless you use it to bring someone in.

by OptionZero on Jul 20, 2007 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
Thats what I thought but I wanted to double check.

by olympicmike on Jul 20, 2007 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

tax threshold.
Actually, even with the trade, Phoenix is near Lux tax territory.  It looks like they'll be OK as things stand, but only if they fill out the roster with min salary players.  I don't know what the threshold is, but it was expected to be in the 68-70million range if memory serves.

by jae on Jul 20, 2007 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
I checked out Bright Side of the Sun to see what they're thinking, and they do not sound happy. I guess I can see why they dumped Thomas, but they've left themselves without a contingency plan for the future.

This trade is so lopsided that there could be something big in the works. Sarver can't be that stupid... can he?

by Caught Backcourt on Jul 20, 2007 1:43 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Salary Dump
It was a salary dump and PHX is confident that they are gonna get far in the playoffs every year, so they arent worrying about the picks they traded. In other words they are confident the Sonics wont get a high pick.

by ballin on Jul 20, 2007 1:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

My question is:
Why didn't Mullin jump in on this?? If Thomas can run with the Suns, he can run with the Dubs, and two extra draft picks would have been nice. We would have a ton of assets to trade at the deadline or next summer to clear enough room for Biedrins/Monta.

by ffgolden on Jul 20, 2007 1:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

In-division
It's very unlikely the Suns would have dealt with an in-division rival, sending two firsts our way as well as a useful part in Thomas.

by OptionZero on Jul 20, 2007 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe they
already have a deal in place where a KT deal would totally mess it up.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Jul 20, 2007 1:49 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yep
Every quiet day that passes, I think more and more that Mullin must have something on the table, just waiting to be unveiled...

by ffgolden on Jul 20, 2007 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A deal in place?
I don't think so. There does not seem to be any planning in the Suns org. It all comes down to the bottomline. The owner does not want to pay luxury tax (or he wants it cut as much as is humanly possible).  They are very short sighted, kind of like the industry that makes decisions based on quarterly revenue. They are not looking at the impact on their playoff performance.  The Spurs are laughing at this deal as much as you guys are.

by Vash01 on Jul 22, 2007 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

mind boggling
So, essentially, all PHX got was a trade exception. I have read so many blog entries about this on GSOM and elsewhere and it doesn't make anymore sense than when i first saw it.
If they did it to get an exception that they could do the Minny salary dump side deal with, it doesn't work. Like you guys said, they would have to trade either Matrix or Amare and that would leave them with like 2 big men. If it's a strict dump, then they screwed themselves out of the KG race for the sake of saving some dough. Either the Suns are secretly near bankruptcy or something or there is something in the works that noone has yet considered. This is crazy.

by Lifelong on Jul 20, 2007 4:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Well the luxury tax being dollar for dollar,
they just saved over $16 million while losing only Kurt Thomas. The 1st round pick next year will probably be late 20s. Besides, they still should have Atlanta's pick (which'll likely be much higher). Even the '10 pick isn't likely to be in the lottery.

Thomas likely wouldn't be w/ the team after next season and he was pretty useless last season until the san antonio series. But it's questionable whether he could repeat his relative effectiveness against duncan as a 35 yr old in the next playoff season. The suns are likely hoping diaw & stoudemire, in particular, can step up their post defense next season.

it's one of those moves where initially you're all "what the hell?", but as you get over the initial shock, it starts to make more sense.

oddly, losing thomas while adding grant hill makes them more GSW-like in terms of make-up (though obviously they have more talent).

by the evil monkey on Jul 20, 2007 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

it just means
that PHX can't do a one on one trade with Minny, well, its more unlikely. They still can do a 3 way trade. Marion is their main asset now imo.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Jul 20, 2007 4:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

allan houston
.. is rumor'd to be interested in signing with tha suns according to tha o. tribune. maybe allan thinks he's worth another 100 mil and theyr're tryin to free a lil space for tha homeboy. my guess at least

by Muggsy on Jul 20, 2007 5:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Steve Kerr
Isn't Steve Kerr PHX's new GM and VP of Ops?  Doesn't look like a good start for the guy.

by ssmokinjoe on Jul 20, 2007 8:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yea...
I dont think Sarver had anything to do with this. It said on the cnn nba rumor mill that Kerr was intrested in a salary dump, and it listed off 2 other guys besides Thomas that could be part of that....if I find it, I will post it.

by gswrico on Jul 20, 2007 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Suns Site
http://www.nba.com/suns/news/thomas_trade_070720.html

Add Kerr to the Dumb GM List with Thomas.

by gswrico on Jul 20, 2007 9:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't jump on Kerr just yet...
He's probably smarter than all of us. I bet he has something nasty in the works...from ESPN:
The scuttlebutt around the league was that Phoenix GM Steve Kerr made the deal as the precursor to another deal, which he will make using the $8.092 million trade exception he acquired from the Sonics.

by BaronForPrez on Jul 20, 2007 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

idea...
Here's to hoping they want Pietrus! :D

by ssmokinjoe on Jul 20, 2007 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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