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OFF TOPIC: 756, What do you think?

(I know this is a basketball forum so feel free to delete this if you want OZ)

So I've lived in the bay area my whole life and I always followed pretty much every bay sports team, but never really got excited about Barry's chase for all these home run records, 500 hrs and beyond. During this year I was thinking about it, and in all the articles I've been reading writers say that the home run record is the most hallowed record in sports, but is it the most hallowed record for you? Is Barry amazing for breaking the record, or is he a cheater for "using" steroids? I don't know whether to cheer him or not, because like an article I read in the SJ Mercury today, it comes down to whether you cheer for him and it turns out he used steroids so you look stupid; or you cheer against him and he didn't use them and you look stupid. Of course those two are worst case scenarios, but anyways what are your thoughts?

================================================

[Moderator's Note, by OptionZero] This is a big accomplishment that happened right in the Bay, so it deserves a shot at discussion. However, if it devolves into a flame war about Bonds hating or childish steroids remarks, I will not hesitate to delete comments or the diary itself. This has proven a volatile topic in my experience, so KEEP IT CIVIL.

Poll
How do you feel about Bonds being the home run champ?
I don't think he used steroids, he's an awesome player.
39 votes
I don't mind, I don't really care about baseball in general.
25 votes
I hate it, he cheated.
7 votes

71 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

0 recs  |  Comment 46 comments

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quotations
I believe that's why the original poster put quotes around "using".

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Aug 8, 2007 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for changing the title
I forgot about the Off Topic: part. I hope this actually stirs up some good discussion, not just about bonds and the records but about what the most hallowed record in sports is.

by Bayareaballa86 on Aug 8, 2007 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

im not talking about him
im talking about the media and the government and the fans outside of frisco. they want to take bonds down. i almost believe people actually forgot bonds never got caught using steroids.

the only things people can use against bonds is his whole body got bigger, and his quote that he never knowingly took steroids

by Akira on Aug 8, 2007 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's true
I mean I understand that he got bigger but steroids don't help you hit, they just help you hit far...haha. Not that I'm his best friend, but the man had a ridiculous career even before 2001, so I'm sure it's not all enhanced anyways.

by Bayareaballa86 on Aug 8, 2007 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he has been proven guilty
everyone forgets that in court he admitted to using steroids unknowingly.  so he has used steroids.  i believe that is what he said.  also its pretty obvious if someone is cheating especially in this instance.  to tell you the truth, i really don't care.  i haven't cared much about baseball for a while.

by Proof on Aug 8, 2007 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, he hasn't
If he had, he would have been indicted. The Feds have been saying they're after him for years now, but if they had any dirt, they would have nailed him for something by now.

It also wasn't steroids- it was "clear". Not the same IIRC.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Aug 8, 2007 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

isn't the clear
a type of steroid.

by Proof on Aug 8, 2007 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if it is
it's not the same stuff that mcgwire and other folks were on

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Aug 8, 2007 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually
a lot of guys were on this like gary shefield.  and it really doesn't matter what other guys were doing.   i hate the excuse well everyone else was doing it.  guess what everyone else wasn't doing it.  i don't care what type of steroids he did, all i know is that there is a pretty damn good chance that he did steroids and that is cheating the game.  i know he was a hall of famer before he did steroids, but still he cheated the game.  i look at what steroid users did as worse then what pete rose did.  

who else heard this fact.  it took bonds 6,000 at bats to reach the halfway point of 756.  and it took him about 3,000 at bats to achieve the other half.

by Proof on Aug 8, 2007 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?
a lot of guys were on this like gary shefield

Which guys? How do you know shettfield was on Steroids. Did he get suspended by the MLB? Please show proof before saying stuf like this.

who else heard this fact.  it took bonds 6,000 at bats to reach the halfway point of 756.  and it took him about 3,000 at bats to achieve the other half

Simple answer. He perfected his swing in his later years. Did you see how dominant he was at the plate from 2001 - 2004? His swing was perfect. His pitch selection was perfect. During those years his swing was a thing of beauty. Pure perfection.

by Bake Da Ripper on Aug 8, 2007 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol
it is well known that sheffield did the cream.

"Did he get suspended by the MLB? Please show proof before saying stuf like this."

your basically saying that only like the 5 people that tested positive for steroids since the new testing are the only ones that ever did steroids.  

NEWS FLASH: there were hella people that did steroids that weren't suspended!  The MLB's steroid policies were a joke during the steroid era and have only gotten a little bit better.

"Did you see how dominant he was at the plate from 2001 - 2004"

uh yeah i did.  i saw a guy who already had a great swing, but these years he bulked up tremendously and hit the ball a lot further, IN HIS LATE THIRTIES!

its one thing for people to make excuses and accept his almost certain to have occurred steroid use.  it is another thing for naive biased giants fans in denial to pull the "innocent until proven guilty" or the "never tested positive"

the steroid era did happen with almost nobody testing positive.  cheating should never be tolerated.

by Proof on Aug 8, 2007 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the clear
Was banned by the FDA at the end of 2003

Bonds accusers say he used it prior to in '02 and in the '03 season.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Aug 8, 2007 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

as much
as i want to root for a great player who breaks a great record, i just can't do it for him.

by Proof on Aug 10, 2007 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ridiculous!
I am a lifelong Giants fan, and for many years I cheered Barry's accomplishments on the field. After learning more about Barry such as the extended SI piece by the Chronicle reporters who wrote Game of Shadows, however, I can't bring myself to cheer for him or give him any respect. A few comments...

He perfected his swing at the age of 37 (2001)??? Has any other player in the history of the game done that and dominated from age 37-40 more so than at any prior time in his career? Yeah, innocent until proven guilty, I know, but that's a legal concept. You are allowed to have an opinion, and my opinion is that he is as guilty of using steroids as O.J. is of killing Nicole and Ron.

To extend the ananogy, O.J. benefitted from the support of the Black community he had always turned his back on, and Barry benefitted from the support of his teammates, who he supported, occasionally, in words only. The guy is so narcissistic that he rarely if ever showed up for team pictures, stretched with his teammates, etc. I didn't want him on the team this year, and I sure hope he isn't on it next year. I am so tired of his act; it's time for Magowen to move on.

by warriorfaninlakerland on Aug 8, 2007 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who here has played baseball
with someone who is taking steroids? I will tell you this much taking steroids DOES NOT make a player better. Plain and simple. I have played ball with MANY guys who have taken them and they did not improve at all. They hit the ball further in BP but they do not become better players. Baseball talent is God-given not created in a lab. I honestly think, being around many steroid users, that IF he used them (he did, I think) it added about 8 hr's per year at max.

Furthermore I dont think that steroids were for homeruns as much as longevity. Steroids help your muscles recover quickly so you can play more games and I think this was the real reason for his usage.

THE HEART AND SOUL OF THE W'S

by dallaswarrior on Aug 12, 2007 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A different HR record
A caller on KNBR today made a pretty good point:

The total number of HR's (756, 800 wutever it ends up with)...that isn't the most sacred record anymore.

What might never be broken is the length of being home run king. How long did Ruth hold the record? 50, 60 years? Aaron only held it for what, 30?

Will whatever the record Bonds sets hold up for half a century? Doubtful.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Aug 8, 2007 12:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

A Rod is coming...
and after A Rod, who's next? Pujols and Howard? I don't know if it's going to even last 10 years after Bonds is done.

by Bayareaballa86 on Aug 8, 2007 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My opinion
I've been a Giants fan my whole life, and I remember when Bonds broke the single-season record and I was really excited.

Since then my opinion on him has changed. I really think that he used steroids knowingly, and that he wouldn't have broken the record without them.

I feel bad for Hank Aaron. Hank had to deal with so much while breaking the record, and it has now been broken unfairly (in my opinion). Seeing Hank deliver that message on the scoreboard when Barry broke it showed how much class he has.

I also feel bad for his teammates. They've had to deal with a ton of stuff leading up to this. I'm glad it's over and maybe they can start focusing on winning baseball games. I really can't wait until the team is Barry-free so that the fans can focus on that too. I don't have a lot of fun in AT&T Park listening to the "Barry" chant, then seeing him fly out to end a rally.

Anyway, that's my opinion. I know a lot of people disagree with me (for example, over 40,000 people that were in AT&T Park tonight). But, I just wanted to let it out.

Golden State of Mind- We iBelieve

by goGSW24 on Aug 8, 2007 12:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i agree
the only people he (or any other user) has cheated are the players that came before them. I wish the media would stop all this cheater talk as if he were the only one doing it. What is the definition of cheating anyway - if everyones doing PED's isn't it a level playing field?

by triplesix on Aug 8, 2007 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree 100%
my comments written before I saw yours are above in a reply

by warriorfaninlakerland on Aug 9, 2007 6:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I support Bonds all the way
and he single handedly made me interested in baseball. If it wasn't for him, I would have never caught interest in baseball and I would regret it. It may be a boring game, but its a great game to spend time with friends and family. I don't really care if Bonds is guilty or not, because I still think he is the best HR hitter of all time and a great person. Go Bonds but not the Giants. :)

by ballin on Aug 8, 2007 1:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Barry is a great player
Say what you want about steroids but Barry's home run record as well as his career should be celebrated.

It is just ignorant to compare records from different eras in my opinion. Babe Ruth hit 714 homers against only white players so shouldn't that have an asterisk? Roger Maris broke the single season home run record in more games than the Babe, does that mean he should have an asterisk next to his total? Barry was the best player in an era where maybe 30-40% of the players were "juiced".

I personally think Barry's record should be celebrated and that the media, in need of stories, completely over exaggerates Barry's alleged steroid use. Much of the hate that Barry receives is from his unwillingness to talk to the media. Wouldn't it be interesting if we find out someone well-liked broke a big record while using steroids. What if Cal Ripken had been using steroids during his crazy long consecutive games played streak? I'm sure everyone would still love him. The difference is that the media write articles about Barry that paint a bad public image and thus Barry is hated.

Also, I don't think steroids is going away anytime soon. It's amazing how science evolves. Steroids will probably become completely undetectable with no side effects and of course, every professional athlete will take them. So let's just celebrate Barry's home run record because the future is going to be more and more "tainted".

by DaAzNJRiCh on Aug 8, 2007 1:23 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

those are all good points
but when it comes down to it the only arguement that i think is valid is that he cheated.  i know he was a great player but he cheated to become an even better player and its not right.

by Proof on Aug 8, 2007 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

werd
I'm somewhere in between the options of voting.

My logic might be a bit off here, but I think of it this way: if Barry Bonds did indeed use steroids (which I think he did) it was detrimental to his career to do so in the first place. I argue that he probably shaved off a couple more years of playing due to his abuse of steroids.

The logic that he hit these home runs because of the steroids is absolutely retarded and people should get shot for thinking that way. Steroids does not make you a good player, period. It might make you better, but Barry was legendary before there was ever evidence or finger pointing at him for using in the first place.

This is a first ballot hall of famer that people are using as a scapegoat for the entire steroid era of baseball. He was, is, and in my eyes always will be a great great player, and he deserves every bit of credit (although casted in a shadow of doubt and hate) that he deserves. Congratulations sir. You're the best the game has ever seen.


http://westcoastbiased.blogspot.com

by coma on Aug 8, 2007 2:04 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yup...
Coma just took the words right out of my typing hands....I actually stopped reading the other post when I read this.

What Bonds did was amazing, and I had a smile on my face the whole night watching that game...I watched every second after that...press confrence and all. My favorite part was when Bonds told Pedro Gomez to shut his hater ass up when he kept asking about steroids.

Real quick thought...Bonds' record is going to stand for awhile....here is why. One, he isnt done yet...he clearly wants to play next year...so this number is going to be at 780 minimum. The guy is going to take off now, and start hitting better...I actually told my friend, Bonds would hit 757 tonight! Second, AROD COULD be the next to pass him, if the Blue Jays dont kill him first....but AROD has a long way to go, and has to stay injury free, which is tough to do this day in baseball...not even Tejada can keep his streak of playing games alive.

Puljos? Forget about it...he is really like 90 years old.

Howard? He had 2 pretty good seasons and people are ready to crown him the next big thing...nope. Pitchers will figure him out very soon...he already is wack at hitting an inside fastball.....

This record stays for awhile until some hot rookie comes up and takes the league by storm.

CONGRATS BARRY!!

by gswrico on Aug 8, 2007 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

did u just say
the steroids shaved off years of his career?  dude if anything it added years to his career.  he is in his forties!

by Proof on Aug 10, 2007 12:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds
Never admitted to taking steroids, or the cream/clear.  A lot of people probably are just going off ESPN's butchered interpretation of the leaked grand jury testimony.  He admitted to taking flaxseed oil and a balm, prosecutors said they sounded like the cream and clear and pressed Bonds on it.  Bonds said the only way he could have taken them is "unknowingly" which he didn't think was possible.

If he admitted to taking roids, he would not be being chased for perjury.

Anyways, hats off to Barry.  An amazing accomplishment.

by rcs15 on Aug 8, 2007 2:11 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Barry Bonds
Has anybody else noticed how basically EVERYONE in the baseball world is trying to very-subtley undermine Barry's chase of the record.  Every time somebody else hits a homerun, ESPN just HAS to mention how many career homeruns they have and how great they are.  And some other stadiums now keep a home run ticker for their hometown slugger, like 400 homeruns at the twilight of someone's career is THAT record-breaking.

Also here comes all the talk about A-Rod and how much better he is than Barry.  I like how people who've never known anything about baseball watch Sportscenter and compare a young fast active A-Rod to a slow aging 43 year old Bonds and assume A-Rod is better in everything that Bonds ever did in his career.  The average Bonds hater doesn't know about Barry Bonds' perennial gold glove awards, 500+ stolen bases, 2500+ career walks, and utter domination of the league BEFORE any of the steroid allegations.

People want to put an asterisk next to the HR-record, but you can always make excuses for anything.  How about the fact that, relative to A-Rod, Barry Bonds has barely got anything to hit over his career.  A-Rod gets pitched to because he's batting in a loaded Yankees lineup, he's only been walked nearly 900 times.  So if A-rod eventually breaks the record, we can put an asterisk next to his name saying if Bonds didn't get walked as much he would've had more HR's.  That's absurdity.  There should be no asterisk.  756 HR is 756 HR.

On the other hand, if Bonds really did knowingly take steroids, it's kind of a shame.  He would've been known as one of baseball's greatest players ever either way.

by jlagace on Aug 8, 2007 2:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

IMO
I'll make it short and simple.

I think it's okay for athletes to use steroids.

Why?

Because if they want to break all of the records and then die at 50, that's fine by me.

Their choice.

But what about if I want to cheer for a non-steroid athlete?

Then they should keep a list of all athletes who use and don't use. If you are found lieing about your status, you get banned for life. And hey, the non-users will get all of the deals and all the fans will love them. It will make the people who do use think twice.

Tony aka Drawlz600 is AWESOME!!!!

by Zorgon on Aug 8, 2007 3:00 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

My humble opinion...
...Barry Bonds is, at 43, a valuable and disruptive force in any game in which he plays. It is my strong suspicion that he'll play another two, maybe even three years, hopefully not with the Giants, who need a dose of youth like Don Nelson needs a drink.

A lot of the numbers Bonds has accumulated are staggering. Besides the home run record, he's also the all time walk king, intentional walks, single season OPS, a forty/forty player... the list goes on.

Based on the achievements he notched before he ever chose to use steroids, he is, by any objective measure, a hall of fame baseball player.

Then again, there's that steroid thing.

Did Bonds take steroids? Yeah, he did. It's as obvious to me as anything. Barry Bonds was a pretty skinny guy. His rookie season he looked like Richard Pryor in a Pittsburgh uni. It's been printed that his head and foot sizes have grown in his middle age, a common symptom of HGH abuse. He was busted for amphetamine use. Leaked grnad jury testimony reveals he admitted to using substances he claims he thought were flaxseed and arthritis rub, when they were in fact BALCO's superjuice.

What bothers me about this most is that I don't necessarily buy the frequent argument of these drugs not helping you hit a baseball, and it's a feeling that is highlighted by Bonds' late career highs not marked "HR." For instance, Bonds' batting averages rise precipitously after he is thought to have started using - mind you, his career batting average is under .300, at only .298, and yet from 2001 to 2004 he went for .328, .370, .341, and .362, netting himself four straight MVP awards. I have heard many different takes on the steroid issue, and last month heard an interview with a personal trainer who speculated that new designer steroids do in fact improve both the strength and the twitch reflexes of muscle enough to where hand-eye coordination, and presumably bat speed would improve.

Essentially, the distressing thing is that we'll never know what Bonds might have been without steroids, because that would've been so much more pure and interesting than what he is. In the modern game of baseball, there are too many players who are one dimensional sluggers, and Bonds was beautiful in that he wasn't; he was practically godlike in all facets of the game (with the possible exception of hustle). If Bonds hadn't bulked up, he certainly would not be the all time home run king. The nature of an aging body wouldn't allow it, because his skills would deteriorate as they should, and as we've seen the last couple years to a limited extent. But who's to say he couldn't have reached the 600/600 SB/HR mark? Would that be so unimpressive?

Ultimately, I guess none of this matters, because it's all theoretical... and when people ask me who I think is the home run king, I'll say Bonds, because he is, and even if he is a steroid popping jerk, I can't deny him the title he's essentially mortgaged the likelihood of a long, healthy adulthood for. My greatest pity in all this is that I can't properly assess how good a clean Bonds would've been for how long, because that realization of how otherworldly an athlete a baseball player can be would be so much more significant for the game than this record will be.

by Zack Vank on Aug 8, 2007 3:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think
this comment says it all, one of the best responses I've seen to date.

by J Rich 4 MVP on Aug 8, 2007 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitchers
An interesting point on KNBR last night: whatever you think of what Bonds did or didn't take, with regard the steroids, neither Ruth nor Aaron ever faced pitchers who has taken steroids.
I also saw somewhere on the web, although I can't recall exactly where, a statistical look at Aaron's homerun total had he played today (during the same years as Bonds).  They said his HR total would have been more, but it was only like 766.  The interesting thing there was although their careers are only one year different at this point (Aaron played 1 year less than Bonds has to this point, I think), Bonds has significantly less at bats than Aaron.  Still interesting to think about how many he would have hit had he had the luxury of actually being pitched to - not so much this year, but how much sooner would he have done this if he was actually being pitched to over the last 5 years?

by jratshin on Aug 8, 2007 9:13 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

ruth didn't face many black/latin pitchers
so he wasn't going up against the best competition.  just an fyi.

by GameSix on Aug 8, 2007 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure lots of pitchers started taking steroids
but did they suddenly start throwing 120 mph fastballs?

No.

Golden State of Mind- We iBelieve

by goGSW24 on Aug 8, 2007 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

truly
in the late 80's 100 mph was unheard of - now it's commonplace. Detroit has a hurler that throws upwards of 103!

by triplesix on Aug 8, 2007 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Innocent until proven guilty!!
Either find the smoking gun or send out a formal appology!!The government has wasted enough money on this damn witch hunt!!

by KillaCrossOver on Aug 8, 2007 10:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great discussion everyone.....
I like the points that everyone have made. And I'd wanted to add my 2 cents.

Whether you believe Barry did steroids or not, whether you like the guy or not, people have to appreciate the chase and the history that was recently made.  

Even prior to when it was allegedly reported that he started using steriods( I think it was about 36 or 37 years of age), which was when he hooked up w/ Greg Anderson as his trainer, Bonds was already a Hall of Famer....HANDS DOWN. By that time he had 400+ Homers, 8 gold gloves, I think he had close to 400 SB's, and was an 8 time All Star.  

If you believe the steroid hype, my arguement is that he played in an era where it's been proven that pitchers and players alike were juiced up, yet NO ONE stood out like this man.

Aaron played in what is historically one of the EASIEST homerun parks in the history of the game, while Ruth played at a time when if the ball bounced over the fence, it was counted as being a homerun.  Barry did all this while playing statistically one of the hardest home run parks in the majors. Not to discount the greatness of anyone, but to give you an idea of the +/- factor for each record.

Bottom line, this goes down to Bay Area fans as the 49ers Dynasty did in the 80's and 90's. We were all witness to a historic achievment by one the best of all time. Hoepfully, everyone can appreciate that.

by esco41510 on Aug 8, 2007 10:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I want to thank everyone for commenting
It's cool to see the majority of the responses being thoughtful ones,   while i'm sure OptionZero's disclaimer helped, it's still cool. What can be considered the most hallowed record in sports? Is it the home run record still, or is it something else?

by Bayareaballa86 on Aug 8, 2007 11:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

he wouldn't even be playing
right now if it wasn't for steroids/human growth hormone nor would he have had that late surge in his career.  dude was a great player but he cheated the game end of story.

by Proof on Aug 8, 2007 3:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Guilty until proven innocent...
Just like Vick. It's a shame that most people in America and most of the media are crucifying these guys before anything is actually proved

by Bake Da Ripper on Aug 8, 2007 3:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Big, BIG difference:
Vick was indicted. Bonds was not.

For the federal government to go to length against someone so high profile says alot- this isn't some crappy local district attorney like the Duke case. The federal government doesn't charge someone unless they have some semblance of a case ready to bring.

Here, Vick's buddy already coughed up a plea bargain to testify that Vick was involved.

Furthermore, Vick's charges aren't necessarily limited to federal criminal law. I believe there was some animal rights protection statutes that formed the basis for the government's case...regulations that might have a lower standard of proof (easier to meet in court than reasonable doubt).

Lastly, one of Vick's charges is conspiracy to run that dog fighting scam. Conspiracy is much, much easier to show than having to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Vick actually participated.

To show conspiracy, all you need to show is that Vick intended to conspire, intended to participate (not actually doing it), and then that any one of his conspirators took some action in furtherance of the dog fighting scheme.

Given that they already have a witness locked up, I'd say Vick is pretty well screwed.

Meanwhile, Bonds' "trainer" Greg Anderson is still sitting jail for NOT testifying against Bonds, the opposite of Vicks' buddies (he needs to pick some more loyal cohorts next time).

Again...this is the federal government. If they want to screw you, they can and will, really, REALLY easily. They're probably monitoring me as a type this.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Aug 8, 2007 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds - 756
Barry Bonds deserves lots of credit for breaking one of the biggest records in any sport. He is simply a great HR hitter and people who criticise him and try and frame him are jealous of that. If he is on drugs than people like me will be sad and disappointed in him. He hasn't been proven to being on drugs, however, so he is not guilty, simple as that.

by zaki on Aug 9, 2007 3:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

let me remind you
He hasn't been proven to being on drugs, however, so he is not guilty, simple as that.

Well, as you know he was busted for amphetamines,wherereupon he promptly demonstrated his lack of character by blaming Mark Sweeney for providing him with a tainted substance. I was really hoping that this would be the incident to drive him out of town, but unfortunately it was swept under like all the other cr*p he has pulled as one of the all-time worst teammates in baseball.

by warriorfaninlakerland on Aug 10, 2007 5:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
he did deny ever blaming it on Sweeney and I'm not sure why he would blame someone else and then retract his statement immediately. It could just be the media trying to make up stories about him and of course everyone would believe the stories rather than the man himself.

by DaAzNJRiCh on Aug 10, 2007 6:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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