Harrington, Marco and Bukie..
by IndubitableBayAreaGM on Nov 16, 2008 3:13 PM PST
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PrintI am so sick of ignorant comments but atthe same time i do love the enthusiasm. For those of you who dont understand the economics of NBA basketball please refrain from making fantasy trade purposals for other to comment on. In regards to Harrington, Marco, and KAZ it is so simple i dont know why the people who are getting paid to handle business cannot figure it out.
A) salary DUMP Al aka TMNT(whoever came up that one, kudos!!) for an expiring. we really dont need a damn thing in retun as far a player goes. watching us manage without a true PG gives me full confidence we'll be fine when monta comes back even if he never averages 10apg.
B) trade bellinelli for the lottery protected pick we gave NJ(or another teams lottey protected pick will do), package him w/harrington for something sweeter to any taker. like swift, hassell and swilliams would be realistic. dont want hassell and his 4 mil next year but he make this work rather than a disgruntled ninja turtle!
C) Keep KAZ right where the hell he is. you people who think this man is expendable are retarded. as far as him, ronny, and sjax. WE ARE STEALING them based off the returns for our dollar. UNLESS we are getting a bonafide star in his prime they stay here!! 3 million for bukie, 4 for ronny (more valuable for the intagibles he brings to our team that got for for years on the inside).
the cap is close to 60 mill and a roster of 15 people. it dont get ANY better than bukies 3 million unless your talking about a rookie contracts from the likes of mr. CPaul himself. I wasnt for giving sjax an extension b4 the start of the season but after watching his leadership and composure and the fact that he's got a vets game that isnt based off raw athleticism. pay him around 10 mill. hes still naturally #2 on the pecking order of things but i love his game as long as he can continually work on his shot selection.
personal wishes even if unwarranted:
please give marcus a fairshot, regardless of underachievement in practice and issues about his defense. his assists per minute will be worth it with a decent 3pt shot.
play a.randolph more, more, more! saw this guy in summer league and he is lamar odom re-encarnated. and looks to be more agressive. will be a crazy mismatch when he works his growning pains worked out and adds 15lbs of muscle!!
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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I am so sick of ignorant comments....
give marcus a fairshot, regardless of underachievement in practice and issues about his defense…his assists per minute will be worth it with a decent 3pt shot.
so you want to play a guy who doesn’t do well in practice, can’t play D, and you think he can shoot?!
all because his ASSISTS will outweigh all those negatives….well sir…
this is my care cup for anything you have to say…..
c|_|
you see that?
Its empty.
please refrain from adding your thoughts on warriors basketball for the remainder of the weekend.
thank you.
gotta luv this site..
easy to comment on somebody else’s solution but you must have one if you can shoot down an obvious solution worth TRYING. cj does have heart and a nice jumper but he gets punked on D and make boneheaded plays. PLEASE tell me what you would do with this roster in the short term? We GAVE a first rounder for this guy to not find out what he’s got. the funny thing about point guard is no matter how good he plays, how its portrayed is reflection of the rest of the team. easy for you to knock him but i rip the league for about 2 wekks right after jkidd got traded and i know hes got that in him still. but hey this league is full of one hit wonders right.
please again. post YOUR solution..
by IndubitableBayAreaGM on Nov 16, 2008 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
hahaha
wasnt the point of your post to shoot down the ideas of others? Also what makes you think there IS a short term solution to the PG problem? CJ is wildly inconsistent, and Jack is out of position but both have been far better than Williams. Plus I dont think Nellie would keep Williams buried on the bench if he was showing anything in practice. A few more issues with your post:
-First of all you say youre sick of these kinds of posts, but I’ve really only seen one guy suggesting a trade that doesnt match up financially or involves Buike in the last few days. I dont think one comment deserves its own post.
-The bulk of Al’s value (to any team other than the Knicks) is that his contract expires in 2010. Dumping him for an expiring contract will be much harder than you make it out to be.
-We dont need a damn thing in return? Have you seen the way we’ve been playing? The team is not very good and even the return of Monta isnt gonna do a whole lot to change that. Why not wait and see if we can get a young piece for Al, theres no real hurry.
-youre fine with Monta even IF he never averages 10 apg? News flash-Monta wont ever average 10 apg, do you know how few players actually do? A score first PG isnt about to.
-Azubuike is producing well for what he’s paid and I like the guy, but I wouldnt say he’s unreplaceable. I’m convinced a lot of swingmen making similar money could probably bring the same type of production in this system
-You mentioned Jack, Buike and Turiaf as great “steals” for us but failed to mention Biedrins who thus far has been our biggest “steal.” A guy who looks like he may average 17 and 15 at the center position locked up long term or about 10 mil a year is an absolute bargain.
can keep this up commenting on every reply but im bored at work
-i didnt mention beidrins cuz im not hoping but expecting him to settle it down a bit. he has been an animal and his number deserve 15mill comapred to other centers salaries but being realistic. his salary is on point assuming he doesnt maintain this pace the entire year.
-no we dont need anything in return. anything we take on is only suckin burn from our players that need to grow.
-i do realize that there is a slim to none chance that monta will ever average 10apg based off his game. didnt elude to the fact that it was probable either. but i did see a change in a dude named nash go for 7apg to well over 10 late into his career. yes monta is shoot first pg and PROBABLY NEVER will but even AIverson and starbury got as high as 8apg.
-never said bukie was unreplacable..just that there is no other player in the league not a on a rookie contract that gives what he does. and if you can find one, you wont get equal trade value for him so its best to keep him on the squad rather than trade him.
-and everytime i log onto somebody’s new post i see ppl talkin bout duncan, brand, jsmoov, YI. or another idiotic unrealistic move. and the fact that i need to articulate every comment for you simple fans out there, yes YI. the asian would be good in the bay but they would not trade there target aquisition last year for a MIA “sharpshooter” like marco.
by IndubitableBayAreaGM on Nov 16, 2008 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
What about Demarcus?
He’s so bad that Demarcus Nelson got sent to the D-League, who plays very good D and can’t shoot a lick either, if I’m not mistaken. What does that tell you? I believe that he will start getting some PT now. Keep it real, Willams is a decent shooter. His ball-handling and court vision are second to none on the team. He should get a chance if Demarcus got a chance. That’s all. However, I will say that CJ and Jack have been making strides running the team.
by SPREEE4THREEE on Nov 16, 2008 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
CJ is indeed a fine backup
Several times agains the clips he drove and kicked out. I hope both he and williams can help rest sjax more – we play better if sjax plays less obviously
+1
giving marcus williams a shot… i know here on this site we all believe that we ourselves would personally make good gms and coaches given the opportunity to have that job… and that’s fine.. but what we do know, and that you don’t even deserve the right to think of yourself in that regard.
Marcus williams a shot? sorry my friend, that’s the biggest bonehead management decision EVER!
he’s TURRIBLE!
screw cohan, screw mullin, screw baron
"but what do we know" and then you go and say Marcus is terrible
so who are you?Assistant coach? Since we don’t know how good/bad Marcus is because we didn’t see him play.
uhh
if you have watched any game marcus has played in you could see that he passes the ball really well. with nelson in the d league now he should at least be getting 10min a game to show his stuff
by hoopscorer23 on Nov 16, 2008 8:13 PM PST up reply actions
Solutions
Analyzing problems is the first step to finding solutions. As a fan and a logical person I see that Monta being out has been a blessing to find other players with potential. Every team has problems, it is about finding how to fix them.
Currently the PG position is the weakest, the PF. I agree that Williams is not washed up yet, and could still surprise us all before Monta comes back. We will see, as I am sure Nelly knows what he is doing. Also, CJ has been playing great. He is not the best passer, but he is still a rookie in terms of NBA game time.
The PF position is trickier, because of the 2 pieces of future goodness in Wright and Randolph. Signing a vet who is not a star is taking time away from the youngin’s, which hinders their developement.
Another thing: Hendrix has been deavtivated for most of the games so far and has seen little playing time. He doesn’t seem to be doing better than Kurz, who is said to have a very high Bball IQ. Funny just found this:
Reverting back to his defensive skills, look who Richard Hendrix has defended against:
So what are they going to do? With Foyle finally coming off of the books, do the Warriors want more contracts, or do they want to find expirings so they can go after Boozer?
The pop ups on this site are starting to piss me off.
Damnit cant delete comments!!!
Was trying to put this in there:
[in college] Hendrix averaged 17.1 PPG,10.6 RPG, and 1.3 SPG.Reverting back to his defensive skills, look who Richard Hendrix has defended against: Held Anthony Randolph to 13 points on 4-14 shooting. One of the few players in college basketball to average a double-double and he plays in perhaps the toughest conference, the SEC.
Nothing crazy. Just that he still has potential. It will be interesting to see if he or Kurz will win a spot. And if nothing else they help in practice, and Hendrix has trade value.
I was going to finish by saying how limited the options are for an Al trade. Getting anything great that will fix the current problems is not likely without taking on a long contract that will hinder future possibilities.
It’s developement vs. the possiblity of maybe winning with other players. We don’t hear about most of the offers the office has gotten for Al. It is just too bad that he wants to go, because he has helped win a lot of games the last year+.
P.S. Buike is a Warrior and plays with heart. He is very valuable @ $3mil/yr. I doubt there are too many players with his salary and his skill. And again, C.J. is doing more than anyone thought he would, and with a busted tendon in his elbow.
The pop ups on this site are starting to piss me off.
I was hope starting morrow
Was going to keep cj out of the game and help him heal. Can’t believe CJ can continue to play like this with that brace.
giving sjax an extension is not crazy based upon what he’s giving us NOW, it’s crazy considering what he’s likely to give us in the last two years of that contract and at what cost.
dumping Harrington is not an upgrade over simply sitting on him for a few more weeks and seeing how teams are situated nearer to Xmas & trade deadline; we could even use him in the role Nellie always said suited him – off the bench. Bring KAz and Harrington off the bench and you’ve got a legit rotation (assuming we start Wright and Turiaf backs up Andris). Would it be the best situation or the worst to rehabilitate Harrington into the team?
extension
have we heard any figures on dollars and years for jackson? i need to hold off judgment until i hear what the deal will look like, but 10M a year for 5 years would be way too much. i expect him to play out his contract and get 1 or 2 year deals for the rest of his career. it probably won’t be with the dubs, but depending on how he looks when his deal is up, that might not be such a bad thing.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
considering he’s making $7m+ this year and next already, expect the extension to kick in another two years for around $18m total – close to Maggette money which is the point
my point is that Jax is going to be far more valuable trade commodity with an expiring contract, he’d be pretty motivated to play hard for his next contract, and he’s not going to perform better than he is now yet we’re locking ourselves into several more years of Jackson/Maggette and no one even mentions the possibility Monta may not make the transition to PG as expected, which leaves us overloaded. We also have a blooming KAz and hopefully Randolph becomes a SF.
Lastly, if Nelson is not coaching will Jackson still be the leader he’s been under Don?
I think they were talking...
about getting the max that Jax could get under the CBA which I think is something like a 12 or 15% increase, I remember reading that that’s why the extension was looking easy and that Jax didn’t need an agent. They are prabably just discussing years.
Steinmetz, like so many other sportswriters, hasn’t done basic research on the CBA. What he puts in print vis a vis contract speculation isn’t worth much. He really ought to either take the time to do the research (supposedly, that’s his job) or consult with someone who knows better.
The max extension is 10.5% of the starting salary of the contract if it’s a straight extension. The Warriors could give him a bigger raise if he let the contract expire and was a bird-eligible free agent, but if it’s an extension, they cannot bump him up to $10mil as Steinmetz indicates. They can offer him a new contract at the conclusion of the current starting at $8.45mil, with annual raises of ~$800k. An extension doesn’t get him a bigger payday than he could get as a free agent, even returning to GSW. It’s a matter of security, but his salary cannot be extended into the Maggs territory.
Maybe when he sat down and saw the actual CBA limitations he backed off on extension realizing that it might cost him.
I’m still not quite sure why it is that they want to extend a guy who will be on the downside of his career by that point, a guy who had never given the indication that he was as valuable to a winning team as he was popularly believed to be last season. It was a career year for him in point per game and he did seem to bring things beyond the box score (which is good for him, since the box score indicated that he’s not an efficient shooter and can’t rebound up to the standards of just about any position).
he did seem to bring things beyond the box score
That’s the reason we should extend him. A team needs personality and we keep getting rid of ours. JRich, Pietrus, Boom, Barnes, all well liked players that aren’t here now. The chemistry suffers from their loss. Jax is worth more than his stats because he inspires the other players to work harder. His effect on Morrow is an example, the kid watches and learns , his confidence is boosted and whoop there it is.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 17, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
“Chemistry” is difficult to quantify, and also seems exceptionally ephemeral. Trying to figure out what the ingredients that produce the winning formula ascribed to chemistry is difficult. This is probably partly because player moods change, and I suspect strongly because some of what gets attributed to the ‘chemistry’ is really just luck. The ‘stuff beyond the box score’ is probably in part this as well. If his contributions in the box score continue to decline, his ‘intangibles’ are going to have to skyrocket to keep up and I’d suggest that there are better ways to shop for such ‘intangibles’, ways don’t weigh down the cap, decrease financial flexibilty, and don’t gamble that what we saw last year wasn’t fluke.
And there’s reason to believe it was a fluke, that we’re putting too much into his ‘leadership.’ There was not any reason to believe, prior to last season, that he was a secret ingredient, that his contributions really were so significantly beyond his stats that you would lock him up. Yes, he played with some winners. He also played with some losers. I honestly think people are deifying him. Saying that Morrow needs him is an assertion that can neither be contradicted nor supported. Saying that he inspires others to work harder is a similar vacuous statement. Maybe, maybe not. We don’t know.
The issue isn’t what Jax is worth now, but what he’ll be worth at age 32, 33, maybe 34. If we’re in the position two years from now that we’re banking on the ‘intangible’ contributions and leadership of Jax, many, many things have gone wrong. If other players can’t play hard on their own, if they haven’t made strides on their own in that time, Jax isn’t going to hold it together.
all that aside
I don’t know about chemistry but what Jax has in the leadership catagory that I don’t think any other player on the team has now that Baron’s left is attitude. You need at least one guy on the team who will get into it with everybody from the ref’s, apposing players as well as your own once in a while. And to do that affectively you need respect which comes from being in the league for a while and being in the trenches. Jax has that. How much that’s worth and could we get someone else with that same quality is another question.
All that aside...
You just said “All that aside” and continued talking about the same thing. Leadership? Attitude? Those fall squarely under the “chemistry/intangibles” category that JAE was talking about. You just straight out ignored everything JAE wrote.
To summarize JAE’s comments:
Jackson’s box score numbers will likely continue to deteriorate as he gets older (this typically happens when players turn 30 and is evidenced by many, many NBA careers). Giving him an extension based on his box score numbers is ridiculous given the knowledge that they will deteriorate.
“Chemistry”, “intangibles”, “leadership”, and “attitude” are ephemeral and impossible to quantify and are thus difficult to use when calculating how much a player is worth in terms of salary cap.
If our other players can’t learn how to motivate themselves without some old hand telling them what it was like when they were young whippersnappers, we’re paying a guy who cannot be effective on the court. If that’s the case, we’ve got problems bigger than Stephen Jackson, and Stephen Jackson won’t make the difference between being a good team and being a bad team.
Now, try to counter the points made instead of just ignoring them and regurgitating the tired old “Stephen Jackson is valuable because he has intangibles/chemistry/leadership/attitude” argument which isn’t based on anything measurable. People have had long philosophical debates about immeasurable things and none has ever been resolved. JAE has cited known FACTS and measurable data which you have ignored because they don’t fit your “Stephen Jackson has intangibles and I like him” opinion.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 17, 2008 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
wow
way to take one thing I commented on and blow it way out of proprotion, Jae was pointing out some things which I agree on but I wanted to make the point about moxy and not the other things on which he was speeking. YOU may want to read through the posts before you go off on some tangent against one thing I commented on. If you read firther then my opening comment you might have seen the “How much that’s worth and could we get someone else with that same quality is another question.” comment.
Again I wasn’t stating FACTS just having an opinion, oh and even JAE stated something to the FACT of there being luck involved, so before you get into a holyer then though, I’m better then you becuse I know all the “FACTS”, step back and take a comment for what it is.
I tend to roll my eyes when anyone says someone has more “intangibles”. Intangibles, by the very definition of the word, cannot be quantified, else they’d be ‘tangible’.
I also tend to roll my eyes when someone cites someone as the “heart and soul” of a team, because it’s another thing that can be postulated without any accountability to fact. I also remember many cases where the ‘heart and soul’ (which seems to mean: popular player whose popularity seems to be beyond the measurable contribution to the team, but your results may vary) leaves and things don’t fall apart. It goes back to reading sportswriters s*#t in their pants when Bill Walsh would summarily give popular veterans their walking papers. I remember several people talk about how Bill Ring was the ‘heart and soul of the team’ and without him the chemistry would crumble and the 49ers would fall apart. He was let go in 86. The 9er dynasty hardly crumbled in his absence. Is that an extreme anecdote? Sure. But it’s one I remember whenever someone tries to defend an otherwise poor decision by saying so and so is the ‘heart and soul’ of a franchise.
Sure, relying on objective analysis has limits, and it will miss some of the exceptions, but it’s right more often than it’s wrong. I’ll tolerate being wrong a few times while being right more often. I’ll take odds to the bank every time over hunches and ‘intangibles’.
thank you
we have to keep buike. there shouldn’t even BE discussion about it. he was never on the table, we JUST gave him a contract. the thought shouldn’t have crossed anyone’s mind. only ignorant fans who are free to post on this website bring that shit up. these people don’t even watch the games.
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