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Jack signs extension and Nets trade off (for now)

http://www.hoopsworld.com/HeadlineStories.asp?lc=NBA&c=1&TEAM_ID=&PLAYER_ID=&hd=20081117#STORY_13993

 

Remember that contract extension Stephen Jackson said he was getting. He got it. After holding onto the contract for days, he inked it. I’ve heard it was for three years, $28 million, but haven’t gotten that from a reliable source yet. I’m sure it’s in that ballpark though. Will give you more info after practice.

 

 

So Jack got his extension and though i am happy is 3 years 28 to much for jack?Especially since he's gonna wear down soon with all those minutes he's been playing  Also:

The Nets have had talks with Golden State involving multiple players, including unhappy Warriors Al Harrington and Marco Bellinelli. The Warriors wanted either Josh Boone or Sean Williams. The Nets weren't interested. Eventually, they likely will make a trade. The Nets have seven power forwards/centers, but currently only four healthy so nothing is imminent.

 

Can we PLEASE buyout Al or trade him within the next 2-3 weeks i am tired of him being on the team especially if he's "hurt". I really like Al but he doesnt want to be here so he needs to go. 

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Thats a good signing and cheap

When hte likes of Kaman and others getting way more money that was a good signing by the W’s!

by smearthebeard on Nov 17, 2008 2:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

+1

9 mil a year for 3 is a decent contract peoples

by dso on Nov 17, 2008 8:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem isn’t that it’s ~$9mil for three seasons so much as it’s $9mil for three seasons starting two seasons from now. This means he’ll be making ~$10mil as a 35 year old. Escalating salaries as play declines is not a good idea.

by jae on Nov 17, 2008 10:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you KNOW there's empirical proof that play declines for wings FROM 35

up that point it’s hard to forward an argument for declining play.

especially considered jackson’s play style.

i think jackson will be our version of cliff robinson

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 4:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

actually nevermind

there’s more proof for number of NBA games played than age.

jackson’s a relative youngster in those terms

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 5:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i

just felt bad that the year he came here was the year the pistons won the championship poor him.

So I don't have a signature well these words would do! Who knew that upgrades can have downgrades too!

by 24k state fan since 87 on Nov 18, 2008 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Jackson extension

is great. Not way too long where all he’d be is emotional support in his last year, but he’s locked up for pretty much the rest of his"prime." No it’s not too much money because he’s be tired after too many minutes. If he plays then it’s not too much money, especially if he earns it.

Member of the "Stop calling him Beans" movement

by StSaints408 on Nov 17, 2008 2:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

yea

thats a much better deal than I thought it was gonna be. At worst he starts to decline and next year and we have to wait one more year to unload him as an expiring. Glad it was only 3 years.

by sam23 on Nov 17, 2008 2:11 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

i'm not sure you understand what an extension is...

that’s 3 years 28 mill tacked on to the current contract. so, including this season, 5 yrs 42 mill ish.

by the evil monkey on Nov 17, 2008 3:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The way extentions work.

He wasn’t allowed to sign for any more per year. Only a certain percent higher than his current deal which is 7 mill. Now not sure what you were expecting, but this was the highest allowed.

by The Golden One on Nov 17, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

love it

not to long and not to much money. He is our leader he brings confidence and swagger to this team.

by FeartheBeard4 on Nov 17, 2008 2:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

beautiful

nice work dubs! perfect extension!

by bayareaballa on Nov 17, 2008 2:24 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

GOOD for Capt JACK

When he gets a little scoring help, you can figure he will be able to settle into 32 mins per of tough D, great passing, third option scoring. We also get impassioned leadership and on the court teaching for the next few years. He is in excellent shape and is smart enough to play his style of ball at this level for at least another three years, provided Nelly limits his minutes to a sane level. If he falls off in the fourth, it is likely we will be indebted to him enough to justify his salary.

Good move management.

Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

by fotd on Nov 17, 2008 2:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

congrats Jack

(damn -and i was wasting my time at Cohn Zohn :( )

sometimes people don’t want to talk hoops, they just come here to act a fool.

by Lat We N Trash on Nov 17, 2008 2:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Trade him

+ Al + Marco for Vince Carter + someone else.

So we can get ride of his pathetic shooting selection, low fg, nba-worst 3pt fg, nba-high 10 turnovers/game (direct or indirectly).

And there’s more: he can’t dribble and his attempts to shake someone off his (slow)fakes are pathetic….. he’s an athletic 6’8" SF who plays 45+min/game and JUST CAN’T REBOUND!!!! 3.8rebs/game with this favorable numbers??? Please…

I’m sorry, but he’s not the same as last year… at leat 3 of our losses were directly linked to his poor performance late in the game – and I mean POOR.

Now that Baron is gone, he thinks he’s Michael Jordan – and has acted like him since then. So we should trade him away while the rest of the teams still thinks the same.

[ ]’s

=Gaucho=

by Gaucho! on Nov 17, 2008 2:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

i

cant tell if your trolling or being serious.

by saintdee on Nov 17, 2008 2:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm serious

Seriously ;-)

=Gaucho=

by Gaucho! on Nov 17, 2008 4:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

your seriously

stupid if you believe what you just wrote. seriously.

but really i would take jackson over vince carter by himself. jackson’s puttin up better number than him

by montamazing on Nov 17, 2008 5:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"jackson’s puttin up better number than him"

no he’s not:

Jackson: Carter:
Min: 43.4 36.7
FG: 38.1 46.9%
3Pt: 26.7 38.6%
Ft: 76.8 77.6%
Reb: 3.9 3.8
Asst: 6.4 5.3
To: 3.7 2.33
Stls; 1.30 1
Pts: 22.1 23.8

Agree that carter is lazy and is no leader (and will never be). But I’ll pick Carter over Jackson all life long. And please don’t call me stupid, there’s no stupidness in what I said, there are pure numbers and facts.

Ok, I know that leadership is not measurable by numbers and of course Jack is an excellent leader but my understanding of the situation is that, at this point, we need more consistent numbers from him rather than leadership.

Don’t you think?

=Gaucho=

by Gaucho! on Nov 17, 2008 6:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

rofl @ picking carter over jackson

leadership plus stats > stats and no heart

by dso on Nov 17, 2008 7:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The stats look dead even to me...

…But you want to also throw in Harrington and Belinelli. So that is WAY too much for a guy that quits on his team any night he feels like it. Carter might be slightly better than Jackson, but better than all three? Your favorite word, stupid.

by JoeBarelyCares on Nov 17, 2008 8:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude..

seriously!
If someone brushes up against VC he is hurt. Watch him, it,s good TV. He is always holding something and wincing after every play. He’s soft and he has no HEART.
Why would you want a guy like that making these types of impressions on our young guys? Thats just STUPID

by highflya on Nov 17, 2008 9:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Every team needs a scorer

Until Monta’s back, until Maggette asserts himself, until Biedrins gets some go-to moves… we have Jackson. He’s a terrible 1st option, but is it his fault his team sucks?

He’s not athletic. He’s not terribly talented, not a great dribbler, not a great creator, not a good rebounder. He has never been those, not last year, not as a member of the world champion Spurs.

Imagine if we get a star- Bosh, Lebron, the next Lebron via draft, Morrow- what’s our last piece? Someone who can hit clutch open 3s, defend, lead. Oh wait we already have that piece. Let’s not give it away for Carter and Yi Jianlian.

by antihero on Nov 17, 2008 3:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you just compare LeBron and Morrow

Really? Morrow is nowhere near the level of LeBron and will never be HALF as good as him. He’s only somewhat comparable to Michael Redd, and even to do that, we have to see some more of him.

But I do agree that S-Jax needs to stay, and that Gaucho is a retard for wanting to trade him for overpaid, doesn’t care anymore, Vince Carter.

Member of the "Stop calling him Beans" movement

by StSaints408 on Nov 17, 2008 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, no Carter, then

who?

Please find another option.

Thanks

=Gaucho=

by Gaucho! on Nov 17, 2008 4:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

None.

Jax is kept.

Member of the "Stop calling him Beans" movement

by StSaints408 on Nov 17, 2008 4:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No one will be willing to trade for Jack with his new contract.

This extension puts him at around 5 years, (counting this year) 43 million. Why would any NBA team trade for a slightly above average SF (who has inflated numbers because of the Warriors team and system) that has a “pricey” contract lasting into his mid 30’s.

by DuikeBuike on Nov 17, 2008 3:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why would you want to trade him these next few years?

And if you did, what do you think we could get in return? We have enough promising talent as it is. We don t need more. We need his kind of veteran leadership.

Why do you think Nellie is playing him to death? If Nellie could use Maggette, or Buike, or Morrow, or Marco, or CJ, or … don’t you think he would?

No one on this team has the court vision Jack has. No one on this team can pass like Jack can. No one on this team can guard the other team’s star PG, SG, or SF like Jack can. He makes everyone around him better. Yes, I get frustrated too at some of the quick 3s he hoists, but I’ll take that all day for what else he brings. And maybe even that will improve when he gets another ten mins per game rest and other scoring options become available.

Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

by fotd on Nov 17, 2008 3:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

First off, I can acknowledge your point.

Secondly, I did not say I wanted to trade Jax. I was replying to another comment earlier in the thread.

IMO, Jack is great for this team right now, and for next year, but to have him for 9 mil per for the three years following the 09-10 season, I don’t see how this deal is worth the money.

I could see him possibly blocking a younger player, or preventing the Warriors from signing an impact player in their prime.

Hopefully I’m wrong, but with Jackson’s current age and the direction this team is heading, I do not approve the deal.

by DuikeBuike on Nov 17, 2008 3:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sippin too much Jin and Juice

Gaucho, you’ve been spending too much time on Del Playa. Vince Carter? Over our fearless leader Jack?

Stack has stepped up his game and is the man! The only leader we’ve got right now. You think Vince Carter is gonna take a team and put them on his back??? helllllls no! He’d be like “oh my back hurts I can’t play coach” and straight quit on the dubs. Not Stack! That fool charges! Not only is Action Jackson straight gangsta, but he’s ice cold too. Dude has no fear! All I want for Christmas is for Stack to drop tre’s on our enemies. I don’t even care how many shots he takes. I say unload that clip Stack! Let em rain down like thunderbolts from the gods above! Sick D. Drops daggers. Distributes the ball. Clone that fool for future Dubs teams!!! This man is the heart of our team right now. Rebounding? That’s what we’ve got Beans and B-dub for. AR is coming up too don’t sleep!

If we make any trades they need to involve lots of 40 ounces and a point guard. Keep Rambo. Keep Stack. Trade Big Al. (Or buy him out). Rep hard for the Dubs. Don’t forget about the daggers!

PS Lebron to the BAY!!! Start the movement!!!

"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak

by KingCobra on Nov 17, 2008 4:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

like I said above

ok, I don’t like Vince all that, I agree that he’s as lazy as Oliver Miller, but at least he’s putting up some very good numbers. (Pass the leadership of this team to someone else in this case)

So who could we bring in exchange for Jack + Al (+ possibly Marco)??

=Gaucho=

by Gaucho! on Nov 17, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Numbers

Maybe you haven’t noticed but Jack is putting up some pretty good numbers himself?

Leaders are hard to come by. I’d go to battle with Stack any day of the week! And I think the team feels the same way. Why break that up?

I know he (Stack) can drive people crazy sometimes. I used to go nuts when he would try to do to much. But now I just go with it. I say “Do too much Stack” and I yell for him to “act crazy”! Because most of the time he gets the job done! Let Stack be Stack. As long as you don’t expect Stack to be Lebron you will be happy. Drinking 40’s helps too. Also I recommend getting loc’d when he drops a three on some fool. Pound a beer and yell things like “THUG LIFE FOOL” or "STACK FOR PRES!" stuff like that… it makes things fun.

Anyway, I’m all about a trade with Big Al. He doesn’t want to be here so let him go. And as much as I like cheering like crazy when Rambo drops a three from the corner I guess I could part with him as well.

But really, when it comes right down to it, I think we should give this team some time to Jell. I really think they are going to be a good team given some time to blend together. You know, like a 40 oz and Kool-aid. You have to swish that stuff together for a bit before you drink it! Everyone is always antsy to make the next trade… but why? Ain’t like we’ve never had a playoff drought before…. I miss J-rich. I miss Baron. Maybe I’m crazy for saying this, but just think how amazing this team could be right now if we had kept some of the same pieces together for a few years and had an owner who would spend some bank to win.

Sell the team Cgrade. Fire Rowelloser

"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak

by KingCobra on Nov 17, 2008 5:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe you haven’t noticed but Jack is putting up some pretty good numbers himself?

The peculiar an seemingly inappropriate question mark at the end of the sentence makes it impossible to know if you’re questioning that Jax is putting up good numbers or saying that he is. Either way, he is not putting up good numbers. He’s scoring 22ppg but taking 19 shots to do this. He is hitting 38% from the floor and 27% from behind the arc. His rebounding is down from what it was a year ago per minute when it wasn’t acceptable for an off guard. While he’s doing an admirable job of distributing for an off guard, he is turning the ball over quite a bit as well.

There may be things that are good about how Jax is playing, but the numbers are not really good.

by jae on Nov 17, 2008 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

bottom line

is jackson has led this team to a 4-6 record minus three starters. how will you refute that

by montamazing on Nov 17, 2008 6:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So he’s good enough for them to be mediocre.

by jae on Nov 17, 2008 7:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

say now something about Baron's leadership

sometimes people don’t want to talk hoops, they just come here to act a fool.

by Lat We N Trash on Nov 17, 2008 8:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's pretty generous...

We lost to Memphis twice, Sacramento, and we beat a pretty bad Nets, depleted Denver team, Minnesota (in OT), and the Clippers. We’ve lost to the good teams and gone 50/50 against the bad teams.

I call for you to amend your statement to “He’s good enough for them to hang with NBA backwash”.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 6:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he hasn't "led" much of anything

38% from the field, 26.7% from 3. he scores the most inefficient 22 points a game i’ve ever seen in my life. he’s averaging 19.4 shots per game to get those 22 points. if anything, the warriors have those 4 wins despite him.

who are the three starters we are missing? nelson decided harrington wasn’t going to start, regardless of injury. baron isn’t on the team anymore so he doesn’t count.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 17, 2008 9:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His actual play has been horrendous, but to criticize him is to invite everyone out of the woodwork with excuse after excuse for why it’s everyone’s fault but Durant’s. How long will Durant be able to ride on the potential label?

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 8:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How long will Durant be able to ride on the potential label?

  Are you saying you wouldn’t trade Jax for Durant?

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 18, 2008 9:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would, for a couple of reasons. #1: I don’t seem to think that Jax is as important as most. I think that the intangible leadership is overblown and people are reading far, far more into 6 games than they should. #2: the contract situation with Durant is much, much better. He has a better chance of getting better while being paid less. His college numbers and skill set suggest that Durant should be better and I’m willing to give him some slack that playing for PJ isn’t a recipe for doing well.

Cheaper, younger, and with more potential and not giving up an irreplaceable commodity: I’d make the trade.

But that said, since being drafted, Durant has been a major disappointment if you aren’t a member of the cult of points per game, if you actually care about things that win games. His rebounding was a huge strength in college, in a major conference. That almost none of that has translated to the pros seems peculiar. Lack of strength? Perhaps some, but he couldn’t rebound in the summer league either where one would think that competition would be more like the college game. Instead, it looks like many people, including KD have decided that what he must do is be a scorer. Problem is that this is only part of the game and since it’s the only part where he’s shown superficial success (high scoring average—superficial because it comes at the expense of high shooting volume which means it’s not really aiding to wins) he hasn’t been successful by any measure that actually matters in winning games.

Yes he’s playing on a terrible team and probably does draw more of the defense accordingly, but good players tend to deal with this. He hasn’t just been troubled some, he’s really, really struggling to get shots to drop. The effect of ‘being the focus’ or ‘having poor teammates’ on efficiency isn’t nearly as great as the people sticking up for Durant would make it out to be. This isn’t opinion. It’s objective observation based on the change in player’s efficiency as they change teams. It’s just not as big a factor in the majority of cases to somehow turn Durant from low efficiency to a good player. Yes, you can find anecdotal exceptions, guys who were held down by situation. If you’ve got them and want to “prove” me wrong by lisitng anecdotal evidence, save your key strokes. The plural of anecdote is not ‘fact.’ Maybe he’s one of the outliers. I wouldn’t bet on it though.

The hype of Durant was based on phenomenal college numbers—I really have been surprised by how bad he’s been because he was so good in college— and a skill set of ‘guard skills’ in a big man. Problem seems to be that the combination skill set is only useful if he’s playing a big man’s game with the versatility to change up on the wing. As a wing player, his ‘guard skills’ are pedestrian compared to smaller guards and he’s not able to use his height to his advantage. I think moving him to SG was a terrible move as his skills, great for a PF, are substandard for a SG. Maybe his lack of strength necessitates this, but if he doesn’t get significantly stronger to play more of a big man’s game more often, or doesn’t radically improve his perimeter skills, he’s not going to be valuable towards winning. He may continue to score many, many points, but it won’t be in a manner that helps his team win often.

It’s probably too soon to disregard what was amazing potential coming out of college, but at some point, if he continues to do what he’s done, one has to start questioning if the projections were really on target. There have been guys who put up numbers like his in college who haven’t panned out as the superstars that so many still seem to think that KD will be. Right now to suggest this you get back a list of excuses for why the comparison isn’t any good, why Durant is different, but they sound like excuses with hindsight. I can generate as many “future hindsight” explanations about Durant, but they’re just that: excuses.

I mostly marvel at how saying that Durant isn’t doing well and questioning if this indicates that he could wind up being a bust just seems to make people go apes*#t insane as if you’ve declared the sky green, said that up is down or advocated kicking puppies or something.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 10:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So...

You’re asking Durant to “bulk up” or “add 15-20 pounds of muscle”? I think I’ve heard that somewhere before… I think he just needs to actually try to be a rebounder instead of a shooter. But, then again, maybe his game is entirely predicated on being able to take advantage of the roster weaknesses found regularly in college games. Who knows, but he does stink up the joint right now.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pssst jae

If you’re interested: on my Red Sox board, some dude named Sam Ray Not (who suspiciously resembles me) channeled some of your thoughts on Durant in a pretty interesting discussion: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=38455&st=40

As you can see, I’m buying what you’re selling on Durant (and re-selling it). It’s too early to make a definitive judgment, but I think we have seen enough to rule out Boston Sports Guy’s visions of a “once a generation” type-player. At this point I think Tracy McGrady is Durant’s absolute upside. KD may have a bit more “heart” than TMac, but TMac, at a similar age was much, much better at basically everything else.

OBAMA AMABO

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 18, 2008 1:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that’s about right vis a vis the upside potential, and I’d trade a non-star to get him still because of that. He may be a once a generation player, but in the same sense that Glenn Robinson was a once a generation player: amazing in college, considered a can’t miss who never achieves anything close to it in the pros. Guys with that much hype who flame out don’t happen all that often.

Honestly, I’ve got nothing against him. May be a great guy, and if he succeeds, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I just wonder why so many people get positively offended at the notion that a) he’s not been very good (which he hasn’t) b) that scoring a ton of points through many shots isn’t a sign of being particularly good and c) why questioning that he won’t be a mega star because of what he’s done is somehow taboo.

(And before anyone starts flaming about how Robinson was different, wasn’t as “skilled” as Durant, I really think you should search archives on the scouting report to read just how marvelous people thought he’d be when he was still in school, how his combination of shooting ability and ‘toughness’ was unparalleled.)

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 1:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

KD at SG

I totally agree that this was a very poor decision. Not only does it not take advantage of some of his strengths (rebounding in particular) but it sends the wrong message to a young impressionable player. It basically says don’t worry about improving your strength and taking advantage of your frame, you can just chuck from the outside and we’ll be happy with that. IMO they should have played him at 3/4 and let him have the rude awakening that is playing against the real men in this league. That would have hopefully inspired a work ethic that could last his entire career instead of breeding a lazy chuckers mentality that could ruin what may have been a stellar career.

I still think he could turn out to be a good-great player but only if someone comes along and reminds him that he is a forward and he needs to work hard to achieve something in this league. He needs the binkey ripped out of his mouth IMO.

"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy

by olympicmike on Nov 18, 2008 1:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Durant has been a major disappointment

       jae, You should submit this essay to the Oklahoma City newspaper, their readers would probably enjoy it.

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 18, 2008 2:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Durant...

In looking at his numbers (all of them) I just don’t see how he could be disappointing? Maybe people just shouldn’t expect kids coming in with one year of college to be Jordan. I don’t remember the hype surrounding Durant being that much greater than let’s say Greg Oden. But his number are pretty respectable by “today’s” NBA standards. 46% from the field 33% from three. That’s just the NBA nowadays, decent. As far as average per attempt it seems as though he is just too perimeter oriented as he only gets to the line 5x’s a game; and for a guy with the ball in his hands as much as he is on that team he should have more. But 80-some % from the line is good. BTW – being perimeter oriented may explain his lack of rebounding at this level too.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 18, 2008 3:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

#1 reason:

He stopped rebounding. Like, alarmingly so: from 11.1 rebounds/36 as a Longhorn to 4.5/36 as a pro (with absolutely zero improvement so far in his sophomore campaign). I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a steep dropoff in rebounding #s, which, as JAE often points out, tend not to vary much over the course of a player’s career. Some of the decline can be attributed to his switch to SG, but not all of it. A wing player with his size and athleticism can and should do much better. By way of comparison, Tracy McGrady, on whom Durant has at least two inches, ripped down 8.2 and 9.0 boards per 36 in his age 18 and 19 seasons.

#2: if he is truly a shooting guard, he needs to distribute the rock much better and take much better care of it. He’s currently averaging 2.1 dimes and 3.5 turnovers per 36: unheard of for a “guard.” (Career 2.5/3.1, slightly better but still godawful). Compare TMac, who averaged 3.0 and 3.7 ast/36 his first two seasons, while turning it over far less: 2.0 and 2.6 per 36.

#3: he shows depressingly interest in D: career 1.0 steals per 36 and 0.9 blocks. Again, enter TMac: 1.5 and 1.7 steals his first two seasons, and 1.9 and 2.1 blocks.

Yeah, yeah, youth, bad team, etc. Whatever. Durant’s 20 now. Remember: we’re not talking about an average young player. We’re talking about a guy who, coming out of college, many expected to be a generational, Jordan-like talent. So far he’s not even in the same league as Tracy McGrady, who himself has never quite attained generational status.

I totally agree with Olympic Mike: not quite sure what a “binkey” is, but someone, a taskmaster like Riley or even Nellie, needs to get in this kid’s face and impress upon him what an utter waste of talent he risks being if he doesn’t get his crap together soon. Tall dudes who like to hang out the perimeter and chuck threes are a dime a dozen. The longer he lives out there and gets comfortable, the more he starts to resemble Rashard Lewis or Andrea Bargnani. Already, dreams of anything close to a BirdMagicJordan-like career appear to have gone straight down the tubes.

OBAMA AMABO

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 18, 2008 5:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s pretty much it. I’d add that his shooting this year appears to be better than it was a year ago, though we’re still looking at small sample sizes. A bad game can make his season stats look bad, a good game the same in the other direction. It improved over the course of last year, so maybe he’s figuring out shot selection. For what it’s worth the average for all players, all positions is 45. SF/SGs tend to be real close to average with point guards below it and bigs above it. Average 3 pt % is about 35. So by these standards, this year he’s a bit under the average for every player in the league. He’s done a reasonable (not great, reasonable) job of getting to the line which makes some of this more tolerable.

It’s just for a guy who was supposed to have do everything skills, he’s shown very, very little.

The rebounding is the real kicker. Maybe coaching is somewhat to blame but “being on the perimeter” doesn’t explain it all. He’s still a whole lot closer to seven feet tall than he is to 6 feet tall, but presently he’s got a career average below Rajon Rondo’s average, 0.1 (not one, zero point one) rebounds per 36 above Kyle Lowry’s career average and is equal to CJ Watson’s average. Being on the wing cuts down your rebounds, but being big should still help you have an advantage over 6 footers. OK, Watson’s 6-2, Rondo’s 6-1. But you get the picture. He is getting nothing out of the fact that he towers over guys on the wing, nothing but that he’s not any better at shooting from out there than the average player and not as good at taking care of the ball.

He was hyped as a once in a career type of talent. He’s not even performing as a once in a draft sort of talent.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 6:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

While his FG% is better....

His scoring efficiency is still abysmal. The bemoaned Stephen Jackson scores more efficiently. Look down at #12 and #13 on the NBA scoring leader list.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbascoring&league=nba&sort=pts&season=2009

Yep, that’s Jackson scoring a hair more points than Durant on a hair fewer shots. You can’t bemoan Jackson’s scoring efficiency while simultaneously saying that Durant’s isn’t that bad. Durant is not an efficient scorer, he doesn’t rebound well, and he doesn’t play defense all that great. So, tell us exactly, what is so great about this kid? Besides that he’s super long and has upside potential.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 7:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't get me wrong...

I’m not a Kevin Durant fan and I’m not defending his “upside” or “potential” and while I agree that if you view him through the perspective of pre-draft hype you may be disappointed. However, hype is not reality and seldom do players live up to it (especially with little to no college ball). I have a tendency to reserve judgement on the greatness of players until they actually play in the NBA. The reality is that Kevin Durant is a good NBA player – not great – and I don’t see anything disappointing about that. Now if he was getting payed a max contract I might be disappointed in the management (see Dunleavy, Foyle, etc.) or if he performed for a contract and then put his game on cruise control (see Dampier, Shaq, etc.) I might be dissapointed in them as players.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 9:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point...

You couldn’t give the average NBA rookie that much responsibility and have him perform as well as Durant has performed, but I would argue that he’s not yet a “good NBA player”. He does not rebound well, score efficiently, or play good defense. He is certainly one of the reasons his team has the worst record in the league. He can be considered a “good young NBA player”, but in a single game, I’d rather have Jerry Stackhouse than Kevin Durant.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 9:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

point taken..

I should rephrase to say that he is playing well in the NBA – not a good NBA player, you are right they are different. A good NBA player has to do many things well – isn’t that why Nellie keeps saying his young guys aren’t “NBA ready”?

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, pretty much

Though, if any of these guys was singularly talented at a single skill, they’d get PT too. Ben Wallace is a good example. If Durant was able to score 30 on 18FGA’s, he’d fall into that category, but he doesn’t… yet.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think that I’d say he’s playing well. He’s moving towards average…for a shooting guard. If moving towards average is playing well, sure. Based on his hype, he’s approaching major flop. On the Thunder, he should continue to get PT because they don’t really have better options. On a number of teams, he would be better served sitting on the bench. The high scoring average makes him look like more of an asset than he is though and I suspect many a coach would continue to play him to the detriment of their team’s performance.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 11:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

to each their own...

is he playing well on a bad team? – is he playing decent for a 20 year old? – is he the reason (or one of) why the Sonics/thunder are the worst team in the league? – All possibilities. Like I said earlier – it’s hard for me to say he’s “disappointing” thus far – but then again I didn’t believe the hype and think he was going to be the savior of a franchise.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

to each their own...

  Yeah, After watching Jordan for so many years I was not impressed the first time I saw Kobe play :>)
    Durant might take a while to get up to NBA speed but his resume says he should excel . Being on Okla can’t be easy, they don’t have too many good players to teach him or take the defensive pressure off him. I think the best way to find out his true potential would be for the Thunder to trade him to us for say Montay and see how Durant does here ?

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 19, 2008 2:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His resume also says he should be grabbing more rebounds

But he’s not. And his NBA resume of not grabbing rebounds is getting longer by the game. Monta for Durant is a sideways move at best, kind of like Monta’s ankle this summer. ZING!!!

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 2:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Numbers...

are pretty comparable to Carmelo Anthony’s first two years and remember Carmelo averaged 10 RPG in his freshman year.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 2:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Numbers...

are pretty comparable to Carmelo Anthony’s first two years and remember Carmelo averaged 10 RPG in his freshman year in college too.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 2:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Melo scored 21 on 18 his first year

Then 21 on 16.5 his second year. Sure, it’s early and we’ll see. It’s a good comparison, but remind me exactly what Melo has done in this league. How far have the Nuggets gone with him?

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 20, 2008 6:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying...

Melo has done anything significant – but not many around the league would consider him disappointing either.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 20, 2008 11:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That was one NASTY dunk from Durant last night though...

Comes about halfway through this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3714295&categoryId=2459788&n8pe6c=2

My point was that Melo did improve in his second year, then he continued to improve after that AND he hasn’t really done anything of note. We’ll see with Durant, but I’m not holding my breath.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 20, 2008 12:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

PS.

I can’t believe that didn’t make NBA.com’s top ten for yesterday.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 20, 2008 12:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

montamazing, you're making sh*t up

you cant just say sjax is better than vince, and then walk away when you’re called out on it. the only thing sjax has on vince are “intangibles.”

"They can trade me," Bonds said. "I don't think they will, though. It's not like I want to be traded, man. I'm a Giant. I'm stuck here till the end."

by GameSix on Nov 18, 2008 12:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Quote this

Ok so I probably should have put down the 40 for a second to check the exact numbers and percentages for Stack… but whatever. 22pts and almost 6.5 assists per game while having to shut down the best player on the enemy team and while playing with a bunch of Rookies and newbie’s is fine by me. No Baron. No Monta. I mean Stack ain’t superman. And if you read my post you’d see I’m not saying he should be putting up Lebron type numbers. I’m not calling Stack Chris Paul or D-Wade. I’m calling him Stack Jack.

Dude plays hard and rep’s for the dubs. He’s all we’ve got left of our heart and soul. Stop being a hater and rep for your team.

People on this site are saying “We Believe” is dead. It ain’t though. I’ve rep’d dubs since I started watching hoops in the Bay. Back when I went to more games then we even won in a season. Back when they gave away free box seats if you purchased a three pack of weekend tickets. Back when I was rep’n Twan and Jrich, Chris Mills and Chris Porter??? Who? What? Yeah that’s right Love em no mater what. Even fools like Cherokee Parks and Brian Cardinal. Rep dubs. Stop being haters. Enjoy some of the crazy stuff that is Dubs Basketball. I’ll be yelling Stack for three all day long. I don’t care if he goes 1 for 20 as long as he drops that last one through the bucket. Still rep’d dubs. Still lovin the team. Still Believe.

"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak

by KingCobra on Nov 17, 2008 11:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

22pts and almost 6.5 assists per game while having to shut down the best player on the enemy team and while playing with a bunch of Rookies and newbie’s is fine by me.

I suggest you look into the relationships between shooting efficiency and winning before concluding that this is fine. It may be fine by you, but in terms of winning basketball, 22 points on 19 shots is more often than not detrimental.

by jae on Nov 17, 2008 11:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Stats don't mean everything....

Oh no, wait you’re right… stats DO tell the whole story, let’s get rid of Stack ASAP! What on earth was I thinking? In fact, now that I think about it let’s get rid of Beans too, I mean that guy has a terrible free throw percentage and what an awful three point percentage. Oh and his FG% is down almost 10% from last year!!! 10!!!!!And you know what, that Monta guy sure is putting up terrible numbers right now… I mean what’s with all the 0 this year. Is this dude even trying???

Ya know, when I start to think about it the Warriors are the worst franchise in the entire NBA. This team is straight garbage. What am I doing pulling for these guys every night?? Am I a fish rooting for the hook??? What was I thinking? GO LAKERS! I <3 Kobe! Fisher is like a god! Don’t even get me started on Farmar’s skills!!! Oh and I really can’t get enough of that Pau guy! He’s so dreamy and I love his game, that dude plays with so much passion! He almost reminds me of my other favorite player: Dirk!! The Lakers have such a fantastic team. I don’t know what I was even thinking of Rep’n for the Dubs…..

Except not, and the exact opposite of what I just typed.

Obviously you are a numbers guy Jae and I know you love the Warriors as much as I do. I’m sure you are right that Stacks stats are not exactly possitve for the team right now. But I’m willing to look past that for the time being considering all the other contributing factors. With most players I’d be like “what is that guy doing” but with Stack… I give him all the chain he needs. Keep shooting Stack! Dump that clip! Daggers! Heart.

"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak

by KingCobra on Nov 18, 2008 9:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Still rep’d dubs. Still lovin the team. Still Believe.

  Believe only makes sense when there is hope otherwise it’s delusion.
    But not many fans wanna sport a big “We Delusional” sign

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 18, 2008 9:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We Delusional!

Call it how you see it. I’m not gonna disagree with you on that one. I think many of us could be considered “Delusional”. Maybe my love for this team has fermented in my brain and caused me to become Delusional. Maybe I’m drunk off the hype I’ve got for these guys and this franchise. I mean how many people stick with a team through 12 years of playoff drought? Especially a team with some of the line ups we have had in the last decade…. You’ve got to be a little crazy to do that.

Maybe I’m still buzzed from the hundreds of ounces of malt liquor that I consumed during the fantastic playoff season two years ago…. But as I think about my delusional state more though, the team that inspired the "we believe" movement wasn’t exactly all aces. Matt Barnes, Air France, J-rich, Beans, Al, Baron and Stack… not exactly the shining starts of the NBA… !

As for hope, well, I look at this team right now and I do still have hope. I feel way better about the future of this team now then I did when we had Dunmurphy and Fisher. I feel better then I did when we were looking to Ike and POB for the future.

This team is young and there is a lot of obvious raw talent out there on the court. I won’t get too long winded here (I have a tendency to do so) but I feel like the young players on this team have some real potential and I think they are going to get there a lot quicker then we might think.

My sign: I delusional Playoff. The movement has started! Go Dubs!

"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak

by KingCobra on Nov 18, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh man that hurt....

D-FIB, you are so silly. Do you also like unicorns out there in Boston?

Also: you might want to check your shoes because from the smell of your last post, you may have stepped in something….

Maybe you should spend your time giving props to the Warriors instead of trying to clown someone who has more love for this team then you do. Say hi to the Celtics for me, let em know we’re coming for thier title!!!

"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak

by KingCobra on Nov 19, 2008 9:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

D'Oh!

I read that wrong. I read “the hundred ounces of malt liquor…” my bad.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 9:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be Lightweight... I can see your point now.

Beers are on me next time you are in the bay.

We can play my favorite drinking game: Drink more ounces then points scored by the Dubs. It’s not quite as fun now that we don’t have the Austin Croshere rule: Finish your beer and then pound another one anytime Croshere throws down a “Nasty” dunk. But it’s still fun.

Go Dubs!

"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak

by KingCobra on Nov 19, 2008 11:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

YEAH get rid of this bum, before nobody wants him which will be failry soon...

He sucks, man I thought i was only going to have to watch his slow ass for another 2 years, this blows, possibly one of the worst extensions I’ve ever seen. He’s going to be 35!!!! He allready slow, man I was just getting used to this douche maybe geting some less mintues. For some reason Nelson thinks he’s some great player, he never ever seems to bench him, put in anybody he SUCKS ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!@!!!!

It's all about the killer cross-over baby!

by warriorsfiend on Nov 17, 2008 4:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

GODAMN IT, looks like I have to keep my word you'll be hearing me boo Jackson now

for the rest of the season. Hopefully for all you lovers of the most overated player on our team I am only attending between 8-10 more home games this season.
“Stephen Jackson should go
This guy pisses me off atleast 10 times a game, poor shot selection trying to post up while being triple teamed in the post. He’s got that really ugly high dribble, he can’t rebound, shoots a horrible % from the field, and he throws away atleast 2-3 balls a game directly to a defender. As much as everyone always says he’s a great defender I’ve been extremely dissapointed this season with it, he looks slow and he’s always helping off his man who usually takes an open shot. He gets burned regularly on the permiter by faster players. He’s awful, and he’s the least efficient player on the team. If this JackASSS gets extended I’m going to boo him before every game I go to!”

This might be the worse news for our team since losing Baron, #@%(*!!!!!

It's all about the killer cross-over baby!

by warriorsfiend on Nov 17, 2008 4:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

do you think

when jackson was out last year and we went 0-6 was just a coincidence. like i said jump on someone elses bandwagon

by montamazing on Nov 17, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

at BEST

Jackson would have made a difference in 2 of those games, and more likely only 1

go back and look at the scores and how we got beat, and let’s be honest – Jax a good player, but this extension is not in our best interests over the life of the whole contract when we factor in the impact on the franchise’s ability to reshape the roster in both the near future and beyond unless we unload Maggette

by hardcore on Nov 17, 2008 5:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I think this is further evidence that Rowell is in charge. Rowell seems to think he knows something about basketball, but when he said that Jax was the team’s best player and seemed to use that as an argument for extending him into his mid 30s, it was clear a) that he didn’t understand the game well enough to make personnel decisions and b) was making personnel decisions.

We’re doomed.

by jae on Nov 17, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you are

overlooking the fact that jackson brings something that this team needs desparately and without it the warriors would be winless right now.

by montamazing on Nov 17, 2008 6:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

no , and no, they wouldn’t be

what Jackson brings is leadership, we get it – lot’s of veteran players do that; we wouldn’t be winless without him

There remain several reasons not to like this decision -

Our roster is now fairly locked in and those of us who were hoping to have some flexibility to add another significant player see that possibility evaporating

Having both Maggette and Jax locked up for several more years should be a concern to those of you hoping to see more of Randolph at the SF, KAz at the SG, or (if any one still has this wet dream) Marco

Jackson’s physical skills are more likely to diminish than stay the same much less improve and his fg% is nothing to celebrate

His contract makes him LESS motivated to play at the top of his game than if he was playing for his next contract

We will have a new coach (or two) before this contract is up and there is not way of telling how he’ll play for someone else

by hardcore on Nov 17, 2008 6:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It is entirely your opinion that we’d be winless without him. Since you have zero way of demonstrating that this is true, it’s your assertion. You’re entitled to it, but do not confuse your opinion with fact. The two are different things entirely.

by jae on Nov 17, 2008 7:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

how about you show some tangible evidence

all your posts are blatant “homer” posts and show no thought. “leadership” isn’t quantifiable at all. i would much rather have someone who doesn’t shoot under 40% from the field, under 30% from three and takes 20 shots a game while playing 46 minutes on my team than jackson.

while he’s here, i’ll pull for him, but he’s painful to watch. sorry.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 17, 2008 9:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

when he said that Jax was the team’s best player and seemed to use that as an argument for extending him into his mid 30s, it was clear a) that he didn’t understand the game well enough to make personnel decisions

  He’s the owner and he probably understands that Jax is popular and knowledgeable about the game. Signing a smart popular player is good business even if it might not be good basketball sense. I’m guess he’s seen the ramifications of trading JRich and losing Boom and dint like them? Jax’s swagger has to be worth half his money and maybe his education of the younger players will pay the other half of the tariff?

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 17, 2008 7:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he was playing better last year

i remember he played great his first 50 games then he broke down really bad at the end. I think he was at 45 percent shooting and 22 points a game then he was horrible. This year he has been bad the whole time and it seems like the second half of last season and this season he has been terrible and i mean terrible. i think he was playing out of his mind in the playoffs and the start of last year

by montadaboss on Nov 19, 2008 5:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This...

…is a bad move.

by Zack Vank on Nov 17, 2008 4:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

+1

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 17, 2008 9:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it looks like

that’s not only me out there who disliked this news.

So I’m not all that retarded, am I?

Maybe I was too harsh, so I accept regretting on 20% of the harshness. Still Jack is way overrated and is still sinking us. Please let someone else to take the last shot, I don’t care it rims out, at least we can put the ball on a true shooter’ hands instead of watching him trying to be a super hero.

=Gaucho=

by Gaucho! on Nov 17, 2008 4:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

no, i like your posts

keep them coming…all the homers here have rose-colored glasses on

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 17, 2008 9:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Homers with rose colored glasses

Those are stunna shades fool. Not “Rose colored glasses”. Get it right son! Rep that bay!

PS Proud to be a homer! Stack Jack for Pres! Transition 3’s for life! GO DUBS!

"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak

by KingCobra on Nov 17, 2008 11:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good thing that

I did not understand the “all the homers here have rose-colored glasses on”. Please clarify, I’m stupid as you should already know

=Gaucho=

by Gaucho! on Nov 18, 2008 10:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

can't tell if this is a joke but i'll bite

i’m saying that a lot of people seem to be blind to the fact that jackson is not an efficient offensive player, and shoots the team into slumps in the fourth twice as much as he puts daggers into the other team. he is a volume shooter on a team who doesn’t need to have one in the lineup (unless morrow is getting the “volume” of shots). i feel like if kelenna were allowed to shoot 19.4 times a game, he would score more points than jackson’s current 22.1 total.

maybe jackson’s a leader. i can’t really argue that.

maybe he’s the soul of the team…can’t really argue that either.

that doesn’t make him a great player. he is not one. i will support the guy because i’m a fan, but i’d rather see the ball in anyone’s hands but his when it matters.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 18, 2008 11:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

oh

got it, so I’m on your side actually ;-)

=Gaucho=

by Gaucho! on Nov 20, 2008 6:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is...

…that Nelson seems of the mind that Jackson is a must-play option. Jackson either needs to illustrate a little more discipline, or Nelson a little more discipline in sitting him. Otherwise, this has burnout by 2010-2011 written all over it.

by Zack Vank on Nov 17, 2008 4:38 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Throughout this season...

Jackson has been a “must play option” because the other options are all rookies with zero NBA experience who Nelson has no idea what to expect from play to play, let alone from game to game.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 6:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

With this move, I can see the Dubs entering a period of medicrity, even with all the young talent we have.

It’s baffling that Jackson would get an extension when we have Maggette here for the next 5 years.

by DuikeBuike on Nov 17, 2008 4:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

...on top of the other 2 years he has left on his contract

so he’ll be making 9+mil at age 35

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 17, 2008 9:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta love Stack Jack

For under 9 million per you get a team leader and veteran that teams really need. He can teach all of our younger guys, and is someone that I love to watch. Hopefully Nellie will stay around with him till he’s done.

by FutureGiantsGm24 on Nov 17, 2008 4:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Oy. I love Jack, but this is not a move we needed to make right now. The money could be worse, I guess, but it ain’t great, considering we’re buying his age 32-34 seasons. If his defense slips, he’ll stop being an asset.

It’s not a tragedy, just an unnecessary move. This was done solely for his benefit, not for the team’s.

by onlxn on Nov 17, 2008 4:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Well,

if that happens, it will probably be by the age of 33 or maybe if we’re lucky, age 34. By then, he will be an expiring contract or a key player for a team that just needs that shooter or that veteran, and he will still be valuable either way. Unless he becomes totally useless and can’t run anymore or something.

Member of the "Stop calling him Beans" movement

by StSaints408 on Nov 17, 2008 5:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

This was a lose-lose situation if there ever was one. Jack wasn’t happy without a deal, we need a happy Jack right now. What we don’t need is a happy 34 year old Jack a few years from now.

Like you said it’s not a tragedy. It might have been necessary in the most short-sighted of ways, to avoid a total meltdown this year but who knows.

"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy

by olympicmike on Nov 17, 2008 5:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Happy Jack

Happy Jack wasn’t old, but he was a man.
He lived in the sand at the Isle of Man.
The kids would all sing, he would take the wrong key,
So they rode on his head in their furry donkey.

The kids couldn’t hurt Jack,
They tried, tried, tried.
They dropped things on his back,
They lied, lied, lied, lied, lied.

But they couldn’t stop Jack, or the waters lapping,
And they couldn’t prevent Jack from being happy
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQwm2ZWzb7o

OBAMA AMABO

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 17, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

p.s. I agree with onlxn and OM

But that kinda goes without saying…

OBAMA AMABO

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 17, 2008 6:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would like to add one thing to onlxn's comments

I also see this as Rowel trying to placate the masses by showing that he wants to keep the Warriors’ “best player” and last remnant of the “We Believe” playoff run. Also probably trying to keep Nellie happy and keep this season from completely coming unglued. If Jax were to blow up in a month, this season would be completely shot and revenue would take a serious hit.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 6:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Business decisions

Pure business decisions.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 6:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha

You rock. You even pick up on references that I make subconsciously. haha.

"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy

by olympicmike on Nov 17, 2008 7:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

32-34 is not that old

35 is where you have to worry.

this is not a ben wallace type of deal. we’re keeping a smart, savvy player for a few more years at a decent price. this my prevent us from being a major player in the FA market, but i’m ok with that. i like watching our home grown talent more than picking up some superstar

by dso on Nov 17, 2008 8:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

this my prevent us from being a major player in the FA market, but i’m ok with that

good, that’s exactly all we can expect now – what you see is what we get

by hardcore on Nov 17, 2008 9:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

GoldenWarrior988

please -add some poll -i just wanna proudly push the YES -I THINK THESE ARE GREAT NEWS button

sometimes people don’t want to talk hoops, they just come here to act a fool.

by Lat We N Trash on Nov 17, 2008 5:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

MAYBE NOW

He will stop taking hero shots to set someone else up now that he has a contract. Maybe this is why he kept trying to score as much as possible to get his contract. This contract may just get his apg at 10! haha that would be crazy…

by bojangles408 on Nov 17, 2008 5:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Great Signing

we have solidified our line up for years to come. We got a good core with Andris, Ellis, Jackson,and Maggs we need one more piece and we got a legit contender for years to come.

by Warriorfan on Nov 17, 2008 5:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

great

one more piece to be a legit contender. WHERE do u think we will get the money? we practically used most of our money, and hell will freeze before our managment makes us go to lux tax

by GSwarrior on Nov 17, 2008 7:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

our "one more piece" is on our bench

one of them is gonna come up.

i suspect it will be randolph. next odom imo

by dso on Nov 17, 2008 8:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

HAHAHAH

That’s it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 6:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh...

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 6:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great

more captain Jack~

by Always Believed on Nov 17, 2008 6:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

More Captain Jack

hopefully he does not break down from playing 40 mins a night, I wish he took less though maybe 20-23 Mil?
Like Tim Duncan taking less so the spurs can have cap space.

I will always be your fan JRich. Good Luck

by chili01 on Nov 17, 2008 6:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

100 million on small forwards!

Now I know we are f*ucked! This is not a good move. The timing is all off. No need to extend Jack until we can figure out:
1. Who we are getting back for Al?
2. When is Monta coming back and how is his health?
Jack had 2 years left with only 7mil per. A great value IF we needed to trade him or let him walk in 2010. Mullin knew that he had time to extend S.J. Make sure he was going to fit in the plans of building a championship team, or use him to get us there. I know we have some real fans out their that understand this moved hand-cuffed us to being an average team for a long time. Heaven forbid Nellie quits on us cause nobody else in the NBA could coach this team.

by Prettyugly on Nov 17, 2008 6:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

haha

could be ANYone

wha-ha-ha!

but it’s not me either – maybe we’re reaching a critical mass of dissenters?!

by hardcore on Nov 17, 2008 7:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

skeptic...?

  Naw, I’m happy with Jax, He’s my little brother.

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 17, 2008 7:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

 I said the same thing earlier.

by DuikeBuike on Nov 17, 2008 7:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lets face facts

Mullin was making some solid moves to better our team. Drafted Wright, re-up Monta and AB. Even had a good extention for Baron( until Rowell vetoed it). Sign Maggs( did I mention before we just signed him to 50 mil) and Turaif. Yeah Jack is holding us down, but he has losted as many games as he has won for us this year. Now Rowell is going to un-do all of Chris’s hard work in less then a year. This shows you who really is running the team! Do we like the new direction?

by Prettyugly on Nov 17, 2008 7:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

he has losted as many games as he has won for us this year

couldn’t have said it any better. (lol)

jax is the man, my favorite W and he’s the only W’s player whose jersey i bought this season (money’s tight), but i completely disagree with this extension. jax was a great piece with boom, monta and he in the BC, that’s quite a trio. but jax as the best player on the team, yikes. i love it when he said, “san antonio was trying to lowball with my contract” it’s called talent evaluations and hard negotiations. they didn’t seem to miss sjax. they just plugged in the next piece. jeeze, you think that’s why they’ve won so much in the past?
only time will tell on this one, the story may not be one we want to hear.

the stop calling him "beans" movement

by pervisNeverNervous on Nov 18, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Idiot?

Cause I’m not happy with being stuck with an average non-playoff team for the next 5 years. I guess so. Some of you posters think cause you have been posting for ever now, that newer members of the site input isn’t valid. I’ve been a fan since 92. I have been down with this team for years and care about them as much as the next fan. But this is a poor GM move for our team. We had the rest of this season to extend him. And if you can’t see it for what it is, then your head is far enough in your own ass for me to bother with you.

by Prettyugly on Nov 17, 2008 8:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

don't hold back

tell it like it is, we can handle the truth!

by hardcore on Nov 17, 2008 9:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

WOW!!!

that was Prettyugly.

by highflya on Nov 17, 2008 9:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that was Prettyugly.

  I think I saw her walkin down the street today?

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 17, 2008 9:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

k they took off my post calling you an idiot

let me euphemize.

you are unfounded in your contention that we are “stuck with an average non-playoff team for the next 5 years.” you have no basis to make this claim. If you are making a correlation between signing one of our most valuable players early and a diminished return to investment because of early timing of the signing, it would behoove you to show some proof.

even if there is very little empirical evidence to show a positive or negative association with signing a player early, there are positive externalities in keeping players happy. Stephen Jackson is the leader of this team, and he’s been worked the hardest and been trusted with the most responsibility. Job security is a small reward to pay for a hard worker, especially when the returns in production are expected to be similar throughout the length of the contract.

the key age is 35. Most players experience a huge dropoff at that age; but Jackson will be entering the last year of his contract at perhaps 10 mil a year when he’s 35. Worst case scenario, he gives us a valuable trading commodity with an expiring contract. I also implore you to empirically compare Jackson’s contract with players similar in production to him. I am assured you will find it is a good deal, even at a more advanced age.

 He shouldn’t be the scoring leader, but until Monta returns it was accepted that someone had to carry that load, and Nellie trusted Jackson to do so. To some of you other (idiot) posters claiming Jackson is trying to be a hero and sabotaging the team, the most important stat is MPG. The more minutes a coach gives, the more he trusts that player. That means that even if our untrained eyes see some crappiness in Jackson, something else he provides assures Nellie he is making the right decision, most likely on defense.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 4:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

after a bit of thought i need to change one of my claims

the assertion that player output doesn’t drop off till 35 is wrong on my part. more relevant though than age is NBA games logged. Jackson currently stands at 550 games played, which isn’t bad for his age. it’s when a player starts to hits 750 games that his output starts to drop noticably, which should happen for jackson in the second or last year of this new extension. however, a drop in output at the last year of his contract is mitigated by the high trade value he will have as an expiring contract.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 6:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think there’s a perfect formula. I suspect games logged is an issue, but so is chronological age. Some guys will age more gracefully, decline less abruptly and later, but in general, performance starts a decline somewhere around age 30 and expecting him to be an exception is banking on a whole lot of improbability.

I’m curious where you’re getting your figures for the number of games it takes for a player to decline. I’d love to see such data if they actually exist.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 6:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well i first heard of this correlation through ESPN

but i started looking up stats myself on basketball reference.com. i followed the career course for several players: ray allen, michael finley, kevin garnett; basically all older players.

eventually i think it will be interesting to do a pure statistical analysis off the numbers. i don’t have the tools to do it now or very efficiently, but next week is thanksgiving break and i’ll probably have nothing else to do.

i’m looking to apply some tools of economic analysis to NBA stats in the following ways:

1.) Determining a player’s optimal FGA and showing empirical proof diminishing marginal returns: as FGA goes up past the optimal FGA, returns — determined by FG percentage — drops.

2.) actually that’s it for now.

you wanna help? =)

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 6:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

While I’m not a fan of this extension, some folks are overreacting a bit. This move does not doom us to mediocrity or crappiness for the next five years. I’m not saying we won’t be mediocre or crappy — we may well be — but this move won’t be the reason why.

The keys to the future of this team are Monta, Biedrins and Wright. Jack and Maggs and Buike and the rest are important, but they won’t tell the story of this team… the story will be told by those three young ‘uns (at this point, I regard Randolph as more of a lottery ticket than a building block). We will go as far as M, B & B can take us. Extending Jack doesn’t change that; it just gives us a good chance of having a fairly bad contract down the line.

The worst thing about this deal is that it removes the possibility of packaging Jack and Al’s expiring contracts for a star next year. But to be frank, I don’t think that was ever in the cards. As crazy as the Lebron ‘10 sweepstakes are getting, I just don’t see anyone offering up a franchise-changing talent to enter them. It’s not like anybody on the Nets or Knicks would get us closer to a ring, and teams like the Heat aren’t planning on just giving up on the Beasleys of the world because they want Lebron… Lebron plus guys like Beasley is the whole point of the exercise.

Extending Jack now was a silly, unnecessary move, but it doesn’t change much. Our future looks roughly the same as it did beforehand.

by onlxn on Nov 17, 2008 9:00 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Extending Jack doesn’t change much?!

MB&W could well be the future, and I think you are under appreciating Andris, but they’re going to spend the next 5 years with Jax & Maggs so we’re at where we’re at and won’t have room to make much a change without a trade. (And to do that we’d have to find someone who wants one of those contracts for a player likely in decline by then. Who might that be? Jeez, maybe we could get Larry Hughes, he’d kinda be like trading Harrington for Randolph …) Extending Jax ensured our future, and it’s the present – or worse.

by hardcore on Nov 17, 2008 9:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I listed Biedrins after Monta because I think Monta is the bigger X-factor, not necessarily the better player. Biedrins is in all probability the best player on the team at this point, though Monta could take another step forward.

As for the Jack stuff, I think you’re overrating the flexibility we would’ve had if we hadn’t extended him. There already wasn’t much wiggle room here… we weren’t going to be FA players in ‘10 even if we let Jack walk. All this did was reduce the trade value of a guy who didn’t have all that much to begin with. That’s a bad and stupid thing, but it’s not a huge thing, especially since Jack’s defensive flexibility makes him more valuable to us than he’d be to anyone else.

If you’re looking at this in concert with Maggette signing, well, I know what you’re saying. Committing a lot of money to non-elite swingmen is not ideal. But given the timing, that signing made some sense, certainly more than this one.

Again, I’m thumbs-down on this. But this didn’t change much. We’re still what we were: a fairly young, fairly talented team that’s probably a superstar short. Jack was never going to net us a superstar.

by onlxn on Nov 17, 2008 10:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

we're not trading Jax

if this causes a glut, it’s most likely maggette who will go.

and hold off on making judgements on our future. Yes, this does prolong the present but we don’t even know what that present is. get monta back in and let randolph develop. then evaluate jackson as the lynchpin of our defense and see if he’s not worth it then.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 4:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That would have been a better move. There was no rush with Jax. The rush seemed to be all about Rowell asserting authority. As a basketball move, it’s hard to see how it makes sense. Jax is not the sort of rare talent or influence who you worry about losing two years from now.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 9:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The reason we're doomed

The move itself could be inconsequential. I think it was a poor basketball decision because I think that Jax, while useful, is being overvalued by many including Rowell and he’s not so valuable that you need to “lock him up” over a period of time where most players see their play decline. He could prove me wrong on the court. He could be so incredibly valuable beyond the box score and could be that rare player who is key to teaching the “young guys” but it’s not an absolute, and if we’re still in teaching mode in two years, other things, as I’ve said before, have gone wrong. If Jax is the kind of guy who without the extension would start holding back, then he’s likely going to find some other reason to become unhappy over 5 years. I just don’t see the reason for it. It doesn’t secure for us some quantity that cannot be found elsewhere if it goes away. It has more of a chance of limiting the team’s flexibility than anything else. If things change and we wanted to trade Jax, he’s now more difficult to trade as I doubt that others will trade on ‘intangibles’ when they come with more years on the back end.

The reason we’re doomed is that this move seems to further indicate that it’s not clear who is in charge. Rowell seemed to be the one pushing this. He’s not a basketball mind, so if he’s calling the shots, expect the shots to be stupid ones, driven by something other than real knowledge of the game. I don’t even know if it’s purely financial, as from a financial standpoint signing Jax isn’t a good move. It won’t sell more seats short term (only winning has ever been demonstrated to do this) and doesn’t really get us a bargain on salary long term, as it’s highly unlikely that teams were going to shell out more than the MLE for Jax when teams were trying to line up for the big boys in the next couple of years when Lebron and Co. come on the market.

It appears we have a defacto GM in Mullin who makes moves that aren’t always on the same page as the coach, acquiring players who aren’t the players the coach wants to use, who have development curves that go well past the point where financial decisions have to be made about keeping the guy. He gets us projects, perhaps good projects, but projects who the coach doesn’t seem to want to help develop. This alone is something of a problem. While early on I, as I think most did, assumed that Mullin consulted with Nelson about his moves since Mullin seemed to be the instrument of Nelson’s return and they had history. Nelson said that the GM duties weren’t his, that Mullin called the shots, but Nelson says many things that aren’t true, so it seemed like he could be providing influence. But as time goes on, as things like trading for Wright (not that I’m against the move, but it seems like Nelson might have been), like trading for Marcus Williams only to not pick up his contract option immediately afterwards, these moves suggest that Mullin operates on his own at least part of the time, enough of the time to make moves that don’t always work best for the team.

A GM and coach on different pages is a problem. Toss in a money man who doesn’t seem to have more than the casual fan’s understanding of the game (read: points per game is the single most useful tool for him) who it seems has both veto power over money (somewhat understanible—it is a business) AND starts calling the shots about who stays and goes independent of GM and coach and we’ve got three cooks pissing in the soup, none of whom seem entirely on the same page. That’s a recipe for things to go wrong. It’s a recipe for no one’s plan no matter how sound it might be, to be allowed to proceed far enough to work out.

We’re doomed because this is another example that it’s a rudderless ship, now tied heavily to the development of players in hand with less recourse if it all falls apart.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 9:03 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Yo JAE

Move this to its own FanPost!

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 18, 2008 9:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

HAHA

Be careful with that suggestion man. You might irk some of those that believe that their comment worthy posts are FanPost worthy…

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 9:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with ya...

I want to see more JAE posts, though I don’t know that there’s really a void in the discussion. Everybody does a pretty good job of staying up on what’s going on. He does do a great job of providing logic, common sense, and most importantly, facts to back up his opinions on everybody else’s posts and ideas.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 1:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, there’s better than even money odds that I’ll be unemployed in the next few weeks (and not just because I spend too much time posting here) so I may have more time on my hands to post more, mzixed blessing though that might be.

And thanks for the kind words!

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 1:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, there’s better than even money odds that I’ll be unemployed in the next few weeks

  Damn, odds can be a bitch sometimes.

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 18, 2008 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Looks like he's being humble...

Can’t you do it for him, Atma Bro? A classic JAE post on the main board is like a shiny new coat of paint on the whole site.

I’ll be the first to “rec” it if you do…

OBAMA AMABO

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 18, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree with all of this, and this is by far the biggest concern about this move.

That said, it’s possible — I’m just trying to be optimistic here — that Rowell will stop interfering at this point. He’s only interfered in two moves that we know of so far… he blocked an offer to Baron, and he made this extension to Jack happen. Jack has, cleverly, made a point of cultivating a relationship with Rowell, and therefore got a new deal earlier than he should’ve. That sucks, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll continue to interfere in future dealings… it seems like he’s already found his “buddy” on the team.

The Mully/Nellie issue is the more problematic one. But for better or worse, Mully seems like he’s on the way out, and frankly that’d probably be the best thing for the franchise at this point. Mully has been on the right side of some disagreements with Nellie — Wright is as good as Mully thinks he is, and the MWill trade was a good gamble — but better that we have a flawed, consistent vision than a hodgepodge.

There’s no evidence that Rowell and Nellie are on different pages. In fact, all the evidence is that they’re very much on the same page, as Nellie got the extension that Mully didn’t, and one of Nellie’s guys got moved up in the ranks. At this point, the best thing Warrior fans can hope for is that Mully gets fired and that the Rowell/Nellie combo steers the ship without too much wobbling. It’s a sad way for a legendary Warrior to go out, but that’s where we’re at, at this point… the lame-duck deal does nobody any favors.

by onlxn on Nov 18, 2008 9:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it’s possible — I’m just trying to be optimistic here — that Rowell will stop interfering at this point.

Have you ever known a meddling upper-management type in pro sports (or business in general) to stop meddling? There may be a case, but I can’t come up with an immediate example. I can think of more cases where it came to tragedy and screwed everything up. We know about three cases so far: Monta’s suspension (and the over-his-head we could still toss you to the curb comments), Baron’s extension, and now Jackson, where it appears that Rowell was making the call. I would suggest that it’s far more likely that we’ll find out that there have been more cases that haven’t been made public than that he’ll go back to counting beans and staying out of affairs he doesn’t know Jack (pun somewhat intended) about.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also...

Rowell is reportedly handling the Harrington trade talks.

"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy

by olympicmike on Nov 18, 2008 12:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d tend to agree… it doesn’t look good.

Still, in all three of those cases, he overruled Mully, not Nellie. It’s possible — I’m not saying likely, I’m saying possible — that once Mullin is gone, Rowell will let the Nelson/Riley/Harris troika do their thing, as long as they make a point of praising his genius from time to time.

Also, the only Rowelly move that’s been outright stupid is this extension for Jack. I think withdrawing that Baron off was the right call, and I don’t have a problem with the Monta suspension, other than the way Rowell made Mullin look silly in announcing it. And if Rowell has been a part of the thought process for the last couple years, well, the last couple years’ worth of personnel moves have been a lot smarter than the ones when Mullin was solely running the show.

Pure, pure devil’s advocate here. I don’t like the idea of Rowell making basketball decisions… that will more than likely be bad for the team. But I think the Rowell-versus-Mullin dynamic is more dysfunctional than Rowell would be on his own. Nellie is a good politician… like Jack, he seems to have won Rowell’s ear. If Rowell is making basketball decisions, but turning to Nellie for advice every time he does it, it might — might — not be outright disastrous.

by onlxn on Nov 18, 2008 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think there’s even some reason to defend extending Jax. I don’t think it was a good move, but I’m willing to accept that there’s another strategy, that there’s things I don’t know and in some not insane basketball reality it makes sense. I think there’s reason to defend suspending Monta (though the ‘and we could still fire you’ BS worries me) so long as there’s an out where, once he’s rehabilitated, he can again be the VERY important piece he was. The threats of losing him for nothing sound like petty vengeance and nothing more. Not paying him for games he misses is one thing. It would be very, very costly to dump him for what could be spite and some morality play. And, given his injury history, there’s good reason not to have extended Baron too. All arguments can be made.

I’m just troubled by the fact that it’s unclear who makes the arguments and where decisions start and end. I also suspect if there really is a Rowell-Nelson alliance that while it may calm down if and when Mullin is booted, it’s only a matter of time before a meddlesome money guy decides to start meddling again and the Nelson-Rowell partnership goes sour. I just doesn’t look like a stable situation can come of this.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 1:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed on all points. It’s worrisome, to say the least.

by onlxn on Nov 18, 2008 4:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well..

I am not one to pass judgment on extensions because I feel like teams always have their reasons for doing things like this. From the team’s standpoint, they clearly wanted continuity and to send a message that they would no longer have any kind of mass exodus like last year. I get that.

The only question, though, is the timing.

We talked all summer about how Jack wanted financial security to make up for the fact that he’s arguably the team’s best player but is paid like it’s fourth best. With his long-term monies taken care of, he won’t be thinking about that and will stay happy. That’s not a bad thing, especially when you consider what Jack said last week about how he’s trying to stay positive to keep this team focused and developing. The team is, after all, the youngest in the league.

If that’s what inspired this move, I’d be concerned about Rowell keeping Jack happy at this cost. I’m not sure that it’s Jack’s job to do that – isn’t it Nellie’s?

I will not necessarily defend Jack’s numbers – they look good on paper, but the cost of his points (as noted earlier) are all those shots. The cost of those assists are his turnovers. We cannot sit here and pretend that Stephen Jackson is an efficient player, nor should we .. but his production and help in winning games has been and should be irrefutable. Especially right now, with the Warriors playing without Maggette, Ellis, and Harrington.

The judgment of this move, though, should come after the Warriors decide what the hell they’re going to do with Al Harrington. If they don’t make a smart move there, I’d undersatnd frustration about this move. Right now? It’s just a “meh” move – it isn’t that big of a deal either way, because the Warriors didn’t have all that much 2010 money (they had some, but not really all that much) and they decided to give it to Jackson instead of looking for someone else to pick it up.

A few more points:
- Jack’s increasing his value because they’re winning games and he’s putting up good, albeit inflated and inefficient, numbers. In theory, it would be tougher to keep him in the future if he continued at this pace, which could have meant more money spent. This argument isn’t strong, though, just something to think about.
- Unless the team does something smart with Al, like bringing in a couple of legitimate contributors, this could end up being a mistake that forces the team to move Ellis or Maggette in the future. You have to package Belinelli and Harrington for a big that can play. Bottom line.

Although this is a wait-and-see, I’m going to give it a thumb up for now while I wait for the other shoe to drop. Once that happens, it’ll be a bit clearer if the team knows the direction they can go in.

Anyway, the article link is here: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=10636 .. it isn’t necessarily anything new or fresh, but gives some of the info behind why I think Jack was kept around. Tomorrow, I’ll have a “what if?” article up tomorrow outlining what MY plan would be.

Remember when I said Zach Randolph would have been an interesting pick up? HAHA expect something like that as I percolate tonight :)

by pree on Nov 17, 2008 9:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

"INEFFICIENT"

is the word that sticks out to me when talking about jackson. great leader, would do anything for a teammate…but he needs to not shoot so much

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 17, 2008 9:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Which ..

He won’t have to do when Maggette and Monta are at full strength

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 8:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yet Jax was never particularly efficient when he played with good players at full strength. Jax was a low efficiency, poor rebounding swing man for his whole career. He may be at a low because of the situation, but there’s really not a whole lot of evidence that the surrounding players have a huge amount of influence on an individual’s efficiency. Seriously, it’s used as an excuse all the time, but there’s not much evidence to suggest that this is the case.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 9:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hm

Not sure I agree that we haven’t seen increasing efficiency when surrounded by better players. Look at Kobe after they got Gasol .. LeBron right now with Mo .. I realize the numbers may not be overwhelming with players of that stature (and constant shooting), but they are clearly more efficient players throughout games.

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 9:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Please read what I said. “[T]here’s really not a whole lot of evidence that the surrounding players have a huge [emphasis added this time] amount of influence on an individual’s efficiency.” There may be an effect, but it’s not huge. Citing anecdotal evidence (and I’m not really sure that Kobe showed himself to be more efficient with Gasol) does not invalidate the general trend, a general trend that has been measured. Citing how two superstars may have improved doesn’t really have much bearing on whether Jax can improve enough for his shooting to not be a detriment.

I’m not spouting opinion here. The variance in efficiency doesn’t change that much in most cases.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Definition

When you say “efficient” – are you referring only to shooting percentages and turnovers?

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 11:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In this case, I was looking only at effective FG% vs. game pace. The relationship between pace and turnover percentage (the number of possessions ending in a turnover) is similarly nearly non-existant (R^sq < 0.03). The relationship between game pace and almost everything, save points per game, it pretty poor.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 11:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha

Literally just said the same thing a little below in my concession :) .. you’re absolutely correct

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 11:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's helpful

I appreciate the R-squared listing. If you could list those alongside the other valuable inferences and associations you often write, that’d be really useful.

My regressions and r-squared knowledge is admittedly very rusty (I’ve spent the past few years working with all controlled experimental data where n=~12 per cell), but what JAE just said is that pace only explains less than 3% of the number of possessions ending in a turnover. Therefore pace (according to JAE’s data and analysis) is not a good way to explain for turnover percentage.

(correct me if I’m wrong JAE)

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 18, 2008 11:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s pretty much exactly it. I’d add that it’s rather likely that the 3% itself isn’t even statistically significant, that you can get a result that says that 3% can be explained by the factors, but in fact, it’s just noise, that in reality, nothing is explained, that drawing a conclusion other than that no conclusion can be drawn, from such a weak association, isn’t warranted.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 11:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Can I get a p-value?

Oooh that’d be the cherry on top.

Man one of these days we should have a little stats party. You bring your regressions, I’ll bring my ANOVAs. Haha that’s some serious nerd speak.

Seriously though man- I’d love to see you posting more FanPosts instead of just comments. Most of your comments are lengthier and more substantive than the majority of the FanPosts we get on GSoM (most of these should be FanShots anyways).

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 18, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

don't get such a hard-on over something a TI-81 can spit out

stats is a mandatory class to graduate college, right? everyone’s seen the material: it’s retention that’s the issue

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 12:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Retention

If I knew those classes could make me a better Warriors fan I would have paid way more attention. lol

"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy

by olympicmike on Nov 18, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it’s retention that’s the issue

 You don’t need to remember it, you need to remember where to find it if you need it again.

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 18, 2008 3:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I might be wrong

but isn’t r^2 only supposed to apply to linear correlation so it says nothing about any higher order correlation that could be occurring. Could one of you statisticians refresh my memory?
(I suppose an assumption of linear correlation is valid for the effective FG% vs. game pace case)

by sharpshooter on Nov 18, 2008 12:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am assuming linear regression in what I did. I don’t know if it’s correct, but it seems like a reasonable starting place. There isn’t a linear correlation of much merit and I think it’s enough to show that it’s clearly not a case that higher pace means lower FG%. If there’s some non-linear function, I suspect it’s pretty complex. The data looked like birdshot on a stop sign in redneck country.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Paying someone based on points per game (that must be the ‘good numbers’ you’re speaking of) is a common albeit completely foolish practice in the NBA. If his price went up because he kept scoring 20+ points per game on nearly as many shots, we should let someone else pay it. Those sorts of “good” numbers are good ways to lose games.

Jax is helping to win games? It’s early in the season, but 4 and 10 is pace to win 32 games. Remember 32 win seasons? They sucked.

by jae on Nov 17, 2008 10:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

stop evaluating jackson's current stats

from early season performance. you know he’s a way better player than the statistics show.

and we don’t have a full team. you’re smarter than this.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 4:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So can we evaluate his stats for his career, where he’s also overall a poor shooter?

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 9:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah but his leadership and intangibles are CRUCIAL to this squad… look at last year. 1-6 without him. Then go 47-28. He gets his 4-5 assists and 4-5 rebounds quietly every game last year + points and the only player who plays good D. He is great for team’s moral, and helps mentor young guys.

if anything i think maggette was unnessary sign, as good as he is, he was a panic buy in response to no baron. And now we have 5 years 50 mil of him, tying us down. what happens when we see monte isnt a PG and now we have monte, magetti and jack at the swing positions all making 10 mil a year

by Warriors510 on Nov 19, 2008 10:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If Monta isn't a PG

We’re screwed either way. But that’s because we signed Monta, not because we signed Maggs.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We've played one of the easiest schedules in the league.

Our opponents have a combined record of 31-54 against the rest of the league (counting Memphis twice because we played them twice).

The rest of the season will be much tougher. My point? It will be very, very difficult to get 28 more wins… 20 more is more likely. Unless Monta’s return has a massive positive effect, this team is headed to a 25 win season. Hello LOTTO!!! And the only effect Monta’s return IS going to have is that we’ll have a worse draft pick. He’s not bringing us to the playoffs.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 6:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Numbers ..

Here’s the counter, though, and it’s stupid math: if you shoot more than everyone else in the league (which the Warriors do), efficiency is going to go down. Efficiency is something we all desire, but it’s not something you can have with three starters out. The Warriors are literally shooting as much as they can to see what sticks and now they are somehow 4-6 despite their current situation (drama, injuries, etc.)

Look, I would like to cover an efficient team as much as you want to see it, but they don’t have that luxury right now. Jackson has to do what he’s doing or they simply won’t win – it’s a tough situation, but it is what it is.

As far as him helping winning games, I gave the numbers in the article I linked to: 46-27 in the games Jackson played in last year and the 73-48 in the 121 games regular-season games since acquiring him. Obviously, not the same team, but still – he’s a change.

The only issue I have with this is .. well .. I don’t know where the Warriors are going with all this. The team’s direction is .. well .. directionless?

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 9:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s the counter, though, and it’s stupid math: if you shoot more than everyone else in the league (which the Warriors do), efficiency is going to go down.

There is not any evidence for this. Team shooting volume is not tied to team shooting efficiency. Sorry Pree, but what you’re saying is simply not true.

The team’s direction is .. well .. directionless?

That’s what my biggest worry is too. This was not a pressing basketball move. It was a move that decreased flexibility in the long term to lock up a guy who there wasn’t much evidence to suggest was the special talent who is totally irreplaceable. This is different from disparaging Jax, but I just don’t see what the fear was about losing him in two years, a time after which we should hope that some of the younger guys won’t be as young and will take on some ‘leadership’ themselves.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 9:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Efficiency and Volume

I tend to believe that a team that takes bad shots on a regular basis as a product of it’s pace (the Warriors – and Jack – shoot more pull-up threes on a fast break than anyone), they’ll have a lower FG%. I think that’s a logical assessment, but I’ll have to look at pacing figures to make note of it.

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 9:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So...

You’re admiting that your “simple math” was a “logical assessment”, but that you’ll still have to “look at pacing figures”? That’s not simple math. You haven’t done any math. Do some math before you call it math.

Guys, based on my basic journalism, I know that the Warriors and Cavs are in talks to bring LBJ to the Bay! I still have to talk to the principals involved in the deal, but it’s perfectly logical for the Warriors to target LBJ, as he’s the perfect “mismatch” guy for Nellie!

Maybe a little harsh, but… do the math before calling it math, please.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 9:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

..

So you’re going to compare a logical mathematical conclusion – a team that takes poor shots and shoots more than others will have a poor FG% – and shoot down my credibility by linking my comment to a ridulous rumor, as if I’d do the same?

Fine – but which website put the Marco rumor out this weekend? The one that I work for, which the Nets then addressed in reports yesterday. If my credibility is something you want to discuss, bash me all you want, but you’re never going to give me credit when I get things right, right? Nature of the game I play, I guess.

As far as the math goes – the Warriors are 2nd in pace factor – meaning they get the second most possessions in the league per 48 minutes, leading to extra shots and, in my estimation, lower field goal numbers as far as I’m concerned (21st in FG%). That is a product of two things: system and roster.

Coincidentally, the Thunder (worst FG% in the league) are 3rd in this stat. The Clippers are the second worst FG% and are in 12th. Why are the Clippers better? They have a low-post option (Kaman – .539) and have a nice player in Thornton that has been in the paint and outside (.442). Although Biedrins does his part for the Warriors (.575), the primary perimeter guys haven’t (Watson, Maggette, Harrington, Jackson). I expect this to improve because a) Harrington is gone soon and b) Maggette is a career .449 from the field, far better than the .364 he’s at now. The Bulls are 7th in pacing, third in field goal shooting. The Knicks are first in pace factor, but they have been hitting their shots.

So among the three worst shooting teams in the league – Thunder, Bulls, and Clippers – two are in the top 10 for pace factor. It’s no correlation, but it’s a hunch that I’ll continue to look into as we get more stats throughout the season. The Warriors are second in pace factor and are the 9th worst shooting team in the league.

jae is correct that there is no direct correlation between volume and efficiency, but it’s something that I don’t think is worth shutting the book on, either. These teams may be the exception and I’ll live with that, but the Warriors, Thunder, and Bulls give me reason to believe there could be something there.

I hate numbers.

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 10:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

These teams may be the exception and I’ll live with that, but the Warriors, Thunder, and Bulls give me reason to believe there could be something there.

27 other teams and several seasons worth of data would suggest that there isn’t anything there.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 11:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Looks like you're right

Took some time to look at these two numbers ..

2007-08 bottom 5 FG% – Pace Ranking
30. Bulls – 11th
29. Clippers – 12th
28. Cavaliers – 22nd
27. Knicks – 15th
26. Nets – 16th

2006-07 bottom 5 FG% – Pace Ranking
30. Pacers – 10th
29. Celtics – 12th
28. Hawks – 24th
27. Hornets – 23rd
26. Rockets – 21st

Since the numbers are all over the place, I’ll go ahead and say you’re right in saying there is no connection between pace and FG%.

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 11:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry for any confusion.

Maybe the “basic journalism” example was bad one to use as it could be construed as being a snipe at you… which it wasn’t. At all. I was making a dig at myself and the other GSoM posters that spout off fourth hand rumors that were ultimately pulled out of somebody’s… you know where. See the hilarious AB1 fanshot article on the like. Given the level of integrity you show by actually contributing to the GSoM community instead of, you know, writing posts like “Hey, did you check out this new article by that super awesome guy, me? You gotta go check out my new blog which is totally better than this one!” Yeah, I have a great respect for your level of journalistic integrity. Honestly.

And to address your points. Certainly, as a qualitative analysis, volume should have an effect on percentage (i.e. a volume guy is likely the guy taking the prayer at the end of the shot clock, getting double teamed, etc.). There’s definitely plenty of “this should have an effect” kind of stuff. I really just took offense to the “this is math, but I haven’t looked at the numbers” bit…

One possibility that’s rather overlooked is that Maggette isn’t used to the GSW system. He may be spending too much time thinking about what he’s supposed to do rather than letting the game flow naturally. But, of course, there’s absolutely no way to quantify/validate that theory that in any way shape or form. By the way, I still say I’m a brain in a vat, and you’re all just figments of my imagination too…

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 12:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Appreciated

I apologize for being so defensive – I’ve sort of been sick of having to go there around here these days. Thanks for the kind words.

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 12:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, Pree but you’re using the word ‘logical’ in a strange way here when what you’re really offering is an opinion that you don’t have evidence for. I can make as much of a ‘logical assessment’ to go the other way. Fast paced teams have more open court fast break buckets that tend to be of the high percentage type. I know that people have used this as a reason to doubt that Monta will continue to be successful, that his FG% was ‘padded’ by the fast pace of the Warriors. Not suggesting you are guilty of this, but seems that people want to have this both ways.

You should know by now that I don’t tend to push opinion when I cite stats, that what I say I back with data and analysis. Here’s real data:

I pulled two seasons of data (only two I looked at. I’m not cherry picking), last season and 0203, largely because those were the two seasons where I had the files on my desktop at the time, but it’s not hard to run this for more years. I don’t think that’s necessary though.

For the 07-08 season, plotting effective FG% vs. game pace rating: there was actually a POSITIVE correlation between pace and efficiency. In general, the faster paced teams had higher effective FG%. The effect, however was very, very weak (correlation Rsq = 0.0929) and isn’t really significant. In 0203 there was also a slight positive relationship, though the correlation was even lower (Rsq = 0.0391) and is about as close to pure noise as you’re likely to get. Translation: evidence (yes, evidence) indicates that increasing pace does not mean decreased shooting efficiency and may actually mean greater FG efficiency, though the effect if any is tiny.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 11:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

I can take that if that’s what the data shows. Now, we just need to plot how many times the Warriors pull up for “bad shots” on fastbreaks as opposed to other teams that may take it to the rim instead.

Fast-paced teams also tend to take shots early in the shot-clock that aren’t necessarily “good shots”. I’m not sure what data there is for that, but I’m willing to look at it.

Again, if that’s what the data shows, I’ll stop and can admit my logic is convoluted.

by pree on Nov 18, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the issue is that you can play a good fast paced game where you look for a clear shot before the defense can set up (e.g. the ‘secondary break’ where you push it in order to execute one of a few options depending on where the defense has yet to arrive, with option to reset when they’re back) and you can play a good slow tempo game (e.g. work it in to the big for high percentage shots, milk the clock until there’s a lapse; e.g. the Princeton offense, of which the Triangle seems to be a ‘mid tempo’ variant) or you can do either poorly and simply rush for a bad shot (e.g. what Baron and Jax drove us crazy with) or drain 20 seconds off the clock before having a guard need to jack up a prayer (e.g. PJ’s Warrior teams that were neither good nor entertaining). These extremes seem to happen more or less as often as each other.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 11:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

my only issue with this stat analysis is you're comparing teams

when we’re trying to see the effect increased shot volume has on an individual player. there are enough confounding variables in comparing teams to players to make it an invalid one.

what we need is statistics showing an increase in shot volume for a player and see the difference in efficiency. for example, in the case of biedrins, his FGA per game has risen from 9.4 to 12.6 from 2007 to 2008. at the same time, his fg percentage has gone down 62.6 percent to 53 percent. early season stats, sure, but that’s the relevant stat we’re looking for.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 12:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting point on Beans

He is a classic case of what we’re looking at from an individual standpoint. I think JAE/Pree are more arguing about team performance as a whole though, which is a completely different animal.

So, not to hijack the thread, but I think the reason for his drop in FG% and increase in scoring is a fundamental difference in the way AB is playing this year. He is being more aggressive on offense, where last year he would defer a lot. If LBJ decided that he was only going to attempt dunks and he’d pass on any layup or jumpshot opportunities, his shooting percentage would go through the roof. What does this mean? There are reasons for performance changes, but they don’t necessarily allow for generalizations like “If player X takes more shots, he will shoot a lower FG%”.

You can, however correlate “If player X takes more difficult shots, he will shoot a lower FG%”. The problem is that there’s no statistical metric for “difficult shots” as shots are FGA’s no matter if it’s an open court dunk or a 75 foot heave as the quarter expires. You’d certainly be correct in saying “If player X attempted more dunks, their shooting percentage would be higher”. But that’s not the real issue here. The real issue is identifying how a player can have a positive effect on winning.

 AB is doing things on offense completely differently than he did last year and the year before. Is it having a positive effect on the Warriors’ ability to win games? I don’t know, he still scores very efficiently and he’s taking shots away from guys who score less efficiently. That’s a positive in my book. I’d be interested to hear some of these other guys’ opinions on the matter…

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 12:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

don't want to go too far into a debate over biedrins

just want to make clear that this thread, and pree and jae’s argument, should be about jackson.

what pree said was that a faster pace should equate to less efficient shooting. however, he failed to segregate player shooting from his claim, which started jae off in his analysis on team shooting vs team pace, eventually proving there is no correlation between the two.

what pree should have said was:

increased pace —> increased shooting for players —> specific player efficiency goes down.

of course, this is much more difficult statistic to compare because we’re essentially comparing differentials of an individual, shooting fg percentage vs shot taken, over the course of his career. then these numbers have to be compared to the database of players at large.

but even then, it’s not the total number of FG’s taken over a career or even a season, but the difference in FG’s taken from one year to the next and the difference in FG percentage.

maybe not the strongest correlation, but stronger than .03 for sure.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 1:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

asdf

If your suggestion is true, and

increased pace —> increased shooting for players —> specific player efficiency goes down

“specific player efficiency goes down” should apply to all players, or in other words, “the team”. This has been proven unrelated.

If a specific player, “player X” sees a decrease in efficiency, “player Y” does not, there is something else that separates player X from player Y. They both play at the same pace (the team pace), but one has suffered from a decrease in efficiency while it hasn’t effected the other.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 2:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well tbh

the first correlation isn’t too important.

what is more interesting pertaining to jackson is the increase in FG as a warrior and how it affects his efficiency.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 2:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I fail to see your point

It has been widely proven through vast statistical analysis of many players of many games that increased FGA does not in any way correlate with decreased efficiency.

You seem to be suggesting that, despite the above analysis, Stephen Jackson’s decrease in efficiency is due to his increase field goal attempts. If true, this is an exception. Your belief that this is true is based on, what exactly?

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

D'Oh

of many players and many games

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 18, 2008 2:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

? what vast statistical analysis?

say you have a player who takes a certain amount of FGA per game over the course of several seasons.

he is suddenly placed in a situation where he has to take more FGA per game.

what rate of change does this have on his FG percentage?

if there’s vast statistical analysis for this, i’d like to see it. and i never said the correlation was strong; i said it’d be a stronger correlation than 0.03, which is what jae got for comparing team pace to team stats.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 2:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he is suddenly placed in a situation where he has to take more FGA per game.

what rate of change does this have on his FG percentage?

On average, not much change at all. Some guys it hurts, some guys it helps. Most don’t see much change at all.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 6:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It cannot be the case where in general increased pace means individuals should see a decline but teams will not since team stats are an aggregate of individual stats. The variance on individuals can be great, but if there’s not set pattern at the level of the team, it’s difficult to expect a set pattern of decline for players. Some could benefit from increased pace while others would not, but there cannot be a general rule for players that defies the lack of generality at the team level.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 2:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you're assuming increased team pace affects all players the same

which is simply not true. even if there is a general increase, their individual increases (%) in FGA are drastically different.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you’re assuming increased team pace affects all players the same

I am not assuming that. Please note the words I emphasized in bold. I do not do this by accident. again: It cannot be the case where IN GENERAL increased pace means individuals should see a decline but teams will not since team stats are an aggregate of individual stats.(now see, you’ve made me use all caps).

I followed that with this: The variance on individuals can be great.
I also followed with this: Some could benefit from increased pace while others would not, but there cannot be a general rule for players that defies the lack of generality at the team level.

It wasn’t a long post. I’m puzzled how you not only didn’t seem to get what I wrote, but suggest that I said something entirely contradictory.

So since you say that I’m assuming that increased pace affects all players the same, and I most certainly did not say that, then which of the following applies?

1: do you not know what the word variance means?
2: did you simply not read what I wrote but responded anyhow?
3: did you have an idea of what you wanted to say and, after reading, decided that it would be easier to pretend I said something that I did not say because reality contradited what you wanted to say?
4: do you have problems reading in general?
5: some combination or all of the above?

Which one of those was it?

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 6:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

-_-

1. i undestand variance
2. i read
3. i know what i’m trying to say
4. fuck you
5. no

this is where i’m confused. you keep arguing that an overall increase in team output due to increased pace equates to an overall increase in individual stats. you then state it’s difficult to expect a pattern of decline for an individual player if everyone, in an aggregate sense, goes up.

how can you fail to understand that aggregate stats do not apply to an individual? you don’t use macroeconomic tools to evaluate microeconomic issues. this is beyond the issue of variance, unless you’re incorporating negative rates of return on your analysis.

again, you can’t apply macro tools to micro situations. like for example, increased employment may lead to an aggregate increase in GDP, but it can cause inefficiencies in certain industries. likewise, an increased pace may equate to an increase in aggregate output but can have negative efficiency effects on individual players

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 6:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Clearly you are NOT reading what I wrote.

I am not quite sure what output of the team you are referencing, but what I’ve stated is quite simple:

1) On average, increasing pace increases shooting efficiency
2) The correlation is very weak and
3) It may not even be statistically significant.

That’s it. I said this after Pree suggested that increasing pace should result in lowered FG%, which is not the general case.

It is difficult to expect a pattern of decline in the components when the aggregate goes up. If a team’s FG% climbs it can only be because at least SOME on the team saw their FG% go up. Again, this doesn’t imply AND NEVER HAVE I SAID that this will be true for everyone. Since you seem to be implying that I’ve said this, and I haven’t, I’ve questioned your ability to read.

So: You said I assumed something that I didn’t. I told you I assumed no such thing and explicitly stated my position contrary to the assumption, and now it appears that you still are going on as if I assumed as much. I have little time to debate with someone who simply makes things up and pretends I’ve said things I haven’t.

Clearly, if you can read, you cannot understand.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 9:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

how can i get through to you

let’s go one step at a time:

1. you claim jackson is not worth it or whatever because his PPG is not reached efficiently.

2. pree wonders if an increase in pace leads to less efficiency. he leaves it open ended: doesn’t dictate whether an increase in FGA affects the player or the team

3. you respond with team stats. if this argument is just about aggregate team stats, then it should end here. but i assumed you were using this to imply that increased FGA has nothing to do with Jackson’s drop in FG percentage.

4. this is where i jump in. i come in with the following assumption: if you look at players who experience sharp rise in FGA, you often, not always, see a decrease in FG percentage. players today who fall under this are nowitzki, calderon, biedrins. of course, sometimes an increase in FGA can lead to greater efficiency. It all depends on where the optimal number of FGA is for each player, which is perhaps impossible to determine, but theoretically it should exist. how to determine that for each player is difficult, but the concept of diminishing marginal returns should apply, and i use this as a basis.

5. I argue that you can’t use team stats to make judgements on an individual player.

6. This leads us to your most recent point regarding variance. However, because you added that it’s “difficult to expect a pattern of decline if aggregate increases”, or whatnot, i assumed — and this is probably my mistake here — that you were not including possible negative individual efficiencies within your variance. in other words, i thought you meant all players would increase.

if anything, i read too carefully.

you do need to understand that individuals can effect the composite but the composite does not dictate what is normal or not for the individual. even though you claim you weren’t arguing this, you actually are if you’re using team statistics to claim jackson’s drop n FG% is outside the realm of normalcy.

it’s like the stock market. just two or three weeks ago, the German stock market shot up like crazy, even though all the stocks except volkswagon declined. However, VW’s increase was so great that the aggregate showed an overall increase.

if you’re going to argue against jackson, i implore you to look at the FG% of players with sudden increases in FGA. I’ll make an actual post of this later, but players like Iguodola after AI left, and Biedrins, Calderon, Gay, Nowitzki this year show a negative correlation. extrapolated to the entire NBA population, it’ll probably result in a decently strong correlation. i don’t know where you’re getting your stats about increased FGA equating to increased FG%, but if you know anything about the concept of diminishing marginal returns, you’ll know that at a certain point it can’t be true.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 11:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but i assumed you were using this to imply that increased FGA has nothing to do with Jackson’s drop in FG percentage.

And there rests your problem. I said nothing of the sort at all. You did not simply assume, but told me, erroneously, that I had assumed something I had not.

i don’t know where you’re getting your stats about increased FGA equating to increased FG%,

If you do not know where I get my data about increased FGA attempts equating to increased FG, it’s clear that you HAVEN’T been reading closely enough to comment intelligently. I presented exactly where I got this, by regression of team pace with team FG where there was a very, very slight positive correlation. I said it was slight, that it was so slight that it could be noise and it wasn’t a universal case. Go back. Check the thread. If, as you say, you can read, you’ll see this is true. It is enough data to say that Pree’s suggestion that increasing FGA should lead to decreased FG% is not a general rule. It is not something, as a rule, we should expect. Did you miss this? Did you hop in somewhere in mid stream and believe that you had enough grasp to comment anyhow? Do note that nowhere did I say that you can keep increasing FGA and raise FG%. Do note that I said that the slight increase might not be statistically significant. (You do know what the words slight and significant mean, no?)

I have looked at players who have had a sudden increase in FG attempts. You should know by now that I don’t simply posit my opinions without data. If I offer an opinion instead of analysis, I’m explicit about what is opinion. I am explicit about what I’m assuming and what I can back with objective data.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 7:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

look man, i read everything you wrote

when i asked that i wanted to see your data for FGA vs FG%, i meant individually, not team. but you keep flaunting your team stats findings as a premise for conclusions on individual generalizations. this is wrong.

everything else i agree. i agree that FGA and FG% can have positive or negative correlations depending on the player. i expect it to vary differently depending on each player.

but you can’t use team stats to make any sort of generalizations for individual stats. get that through your head. if a player is responsible for 40 percent of the offense and has an increase in FG% due to increased FGA, it can severely offset any decreases in FG% from FGA for other players. thus, on a quantitative basis, more PLAYERS could have a decrease in FG% from FGA even though the overall FG% from FGA increased.

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 9:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Where did I make generalizations about individual stats? I rejected Pree’s notion that you could, that there should be a general trend where more FGA means lower FG%. And the data I cited is sufficient to reject this as a general conclusion. I did nothing more. I noted that there’s neither a strong affect either way and noted that there’s individual variation. You are creating a strawman. You are telling me I am doing something that not only have I not done, but I’ve explicitly addressed and indicated otherwise.

Seriously, the reason I’m bringing up your poor reading comprehension is because you repeatedly seem to miss this. You seem to pretend I’ve said things I haven’t. Perhaps you’re just a troll and not a moron. I cannot dismiss either with the data you’re providing.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 10:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm sorry, but i believe it is possible to expect a negative pattern as pace increases

and so i have taken your assertion that “it’s difficult to expect downward patterns” to be a generalization of the individuals based on the aggregate.

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 11:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

EXPECTING such a pattern is difficult. If the pattern were that most players would show a downward pattern AND there is no pattern at the team level, it would require the fewer players who show the counter pattern to be taking most of the shots. Is this possible? Certainly. Should we expect it? No, not without evidence to the counter. I am not aware of evidence that increased pace puts the ball in a smaller number of players’ hands more often. It is possible, but we should not expect it.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 11:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am not aware of evidence that increased pace puts the ball in a smaller number of players’ hands more often. It is possible, but we should not expect it.

  Seems to me true increased pace would favor the fastest players since they can get to the basket sooner? also should increase their FG % since dunks and layups are hard to miss. Montay had pretty hight percentage last year from the fast pace. Did Montay’s fast pace high percentage bring up the teams %? Guess that depends on the balance of fast and slow players on a team? Slow big guys will do better in a post up game while fast skinny guys will suffer?

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 19, 2008 3:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pace is not just fast breaks

“7 seconds or less” does not only include fast breaks, it includes “If you get an open jumper take it”, which is still going to be a lower percentage shot than working it in to the big guy for a layup. Slower pace isn’t just working it into the big guy, sometimes it’s getting stuck at the end of the shot clock in a bad situation.
It works both ways, but you can’t generalize that the pace of a team leads them to take more or less of one type of shot.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 20, 2008 6:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you can’t generalize that the pace of a team leads them to take more or less of one type of shot.

 If fast breaks are not the result of increased pace then it don’t really matter if you take a high percentage shot early in the clock or late in the clock. Once you are denied the fast break it’s back to team skill which doesn’t vary over the course of 20 seconds.

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 20, 2008 10:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There is not much evidence that changes in an individual’s shot volume changes his FG%. I’d wait significantly longer to see what happens with Biedrins, though I had thought that forcing him into a bigger role might do exactly what it’s done. He’s not really helping htat much more on offense than he was a year ago as the marginal returns on the extra shots is pretty poor. I hope it’s just small sample size.

(Actually, he’s still helping with the extra shots, but only because the extra shots would likely otherwise go to guys who are shooting far, far worse than even his marginal rate).

Some guys actually shoot better when they start to take more shots (probably get into more rhythm, don’t force shots thinking they’ll never have an opportunity) others do not. There is not a direct relationship here either, though the scatter plot looks even more scattered.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

once again, the point is that there will be a stronger correlation than .03

and would further a better argument for both sides.also, comparing team stats to player stats is too different to be relevant.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 2:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What exactly are team stats if not the summation of individual player stats? How exactly do you get off saying that it’s too different to be relevant? What vast experience with data analysis do you have that led you to this conclusion?

Inquiring minds want to know.

by jae on Nov 18, 2008 6:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

look at my last post above

the individuals dictate the aggregate but the aggregate does not dictate the individual. in other words, if A = individuals and B = aggregate, then

A—> B ; as in, A effects B

but that does not mean B—> A.

by dso on Nov 18, 2008 11:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Please do go back and read things more carefully. It is clear to me that you have not done so.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 7:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i have said the same thing over and over again

you seem to not understand.

the aggregate does not allow for generalizations on the components, especially if the components are weighted differently importance

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Explain how the components are weighted differently

Explain how you are going to systematically choose which components to choose. Are you going to select all players under 6’5" because you have some theory about how pace will effect their shooting?

A team is a simple set of players. An overall team performance is the overall performance of a set of players. If we extrapolate that to the league, are you going to say “No, no, that’s completely different” again?

Explain how, exactly, you plan to separate out individual players from their teams. You have to choose a large enough sample size to be statistically significant and you have to use a metric based on a preconceived hypothesis, not from picking and choosing your data points (individual players).

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 10:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You seem not to be able to read. You seem to be saying I have made generalizations about the individuals. Since I haven’t, you’re point is meaningless, save that it indicates that you don’t seem to be able to read.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 10:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

... isn't this WHOLE THING to argue against stephen jackson?

yes or no? are these team stats supposed to have no effect on your arguments previous against jackson?

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No. That is NOT the whole thing. Clearly, you cannot read. Kindly stop pretending you can.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Stephen Jackson takes lots of bad shots

That’s why his FG% is down, it’s not because “players that shoot lots of shots show a downward trend in FG%”. We’re all in agreement with the fact that Stephen Jackson: A) Takes a lot of shots, and B) misses a lot of shots. But that has nothing to do with generalizations.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 10:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you have made a generalization

in saying you can’t expect patterns of individual decline if the aggregate goes up.

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 10:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

in saying you can’t expect patterns of individual decline if the aggregate goes up

I am troubled by your use of the word can’t. It is a word you should not be using to describe what I said. You shouldn’t expect a pattern of individual decline. It’s possible that it could happen to some players, that the affect of a change in pace disproportionally rewards some players in higher FG% and higher shot volume, compensating for a larger number of players who take fewer shots, but are less effective with them. That’s possible. It isn’t, however, what we should expect in absence of data.

Now, is there reason to believe that increased game pace leads to such a change in shot distribution? Without it, we shouldn’t (note this word, it means something and it means something different from ’can’t’) expect a pattern (again, a word that has meaning) of decline.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 11:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

k semantic point taken

enough words. let’s run the numbers.

give me a week since midterms are done then. imma run this by one of my econ professors and i think we can get you a nice model.

i hope you understand the concept of diminishing marginal returns and a maximum efficiency point. i suspect you do

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So...

If you don’t like the set of players that all play at the same pace because they all play on the same team… what set of players do you suggest we use to calculate how much correlation there is between pace and performance?

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 8:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

pace and team can't work.

reason being is pace effects FGA per player too differently, percent wise.

i think the data that should be used is:

1.) Top one hundred players in the NBA, FGA wise.

2.) Out of these hundred, only players with 3+ years in the league are included. this is to eliminate “experience” anamolies for younger players, ie players still adjusting to the league.

3.) Out of that remainder, remove players with over 800 NBA games logged. 800 is an arbitrary number for now, but we can expect a negative correlation for games after 800 and shooting ability.

4.) With these leftover players, we focus on two of their stats: FGA and FG%. We find the combination with the least amount of variance for each player, thereby finding an unique optimal FGA rate for each player. (each player’s optimal FGA rate is unique because it is a reflection of their skill level)

5.) We then find years where significant discrepancies in FGA occur. we measure the difference in FG% that occur with these FGA differences. (btw, everything is per game).

6.) Each player should then show differences in FG% when FGA deviates from their statistical norm. we gather all this data and run a regression, then finding the correlation rate.

it’ll be interesting to say the least. i’ll just say that from cursory glance at the data, there is some evidence of a correlation. go to basketball reference.com and look at the following players: garnett, calderon, vince carter, stephen jackson, iguodola.

as a thesis, i’d forward that if an increase in FGA does not diminish your FG, you should be taking more FGA. if increased FGA decreases your FG, you should take less shots.

gimme till thanksgiving break to crunch the numbers.

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 10:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So... take 100 players instead of 1000?

Then weed it down some more? You’re probably only going to get 75 or so players. You think that’s going to give you a more statistically significant analysis than going with every player from the entire league? Maybe JAE only has Warriors, but he can shed some light on that.

I still fail to see why you’re willing to ignore an analysis of all players because “pace effects FGA per player too differently”. You can say the same thing about players who attempt lots of shots. Pace definitely effects Shaq differently than CP3. So are you going to throw out those two in your analysis?

To me, fundamentally you are discounting an analysis based on a larger sample size because you disagree with its findings. If you are going to discredit a set of players, please provide a detailed explanation of why. Thus far, you’ve made some nebulous statements about “pace effects people differently” without really substantiating your claims. I also suspect that when you do substantiate that claim, your reasoning can be equally applied to any and all sets of players, including the Top 100 FGA players you’re going to look at in your analysis.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 10:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

look, if pace increases a team's aggregate FGA from 100 to 110

how are those extra ten shots distributed? one per player? even if it is distributed in that way, how many FGA were the players taking before? if they had ten before and get an increase of 1, then that’s an increase of 10 percent. if they had 2 before and they had an increase of 1, then it’d be a 50 percent increase.

it’s not nebulous. and the sample size was smaller just cuz it would make it easier and get rid of extraneous data, ie players with 2 shots or whatever. we can include all.

what you can’t do is categorize them by team, because the team does not reflect the individual

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see what you are saying...

and I have to say that jae undermines his argument with the personal attacks.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 11:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see what he's saying

Please enlighten me.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well...

not to speak for other people but – in reading this post it seem as though dso was inferring an argument from Pree’s comment regarding FG efficiency that it was about Jackson. I can see why he did that although I’m not sure that’s what Pree was doing. From there the argument got off track because jae was not arguing that he was arguing from a team perspective and dso from the individual. Both arguments are valid and not necessarily related – it just gets derailed when bloggers start calling each other illiterate and stupid etc.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the team is merely a set of individuals

To this point, dso has not satisfied me (I suspect JAE would be equally unsatisfied, though I’m not going to speak for him) that he has a valid argument for rejecting this set and using a completely different set. I also suspect that an analysis of his set will come to the same conclusion and that if it doesn’t any discrepancy is likely due to the smaller sample size in his “Top 100 FGA” set.

Now, there might be something to his “team is different from individual” theory, but he has yet to provide a solid argument for it.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 19, 2008 11:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

this isnt a theory. this is fact

team doesnt dictate individual.

the Top 100 is the most relevant because they take the most amount of shots. if you include everyone in the NBA you have a bunch of anamolous players, ie players who take one shots and make it, thereby having 100 percent fg , and players who take 1 shot and miss it, thereby having 0.

but honestly, the constriction of the sample size was only proffered by me because of convenience. you can run a data analysis on every single player if you want; but 100 is something i CAN do, plus they are the most statistically significant.

the most important thing to understand from jae’s statistics is that they cannot offer conclusive… anything… on the individual, which he has readily agreed to.

by dso on Nov 19, 2008 11:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it's presented above...

in a valid AB format.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 11:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

they are...

basically arguing two different things. An agreement to disagree is in order here. It’s two statisticians squabbling over semantics now.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

by triplesix on Nov 19, 2008 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My argument is independent from the personal attacks. They don’t have any logical bearing on each other.

by jae on Nov 19, 2008 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

which is why...

in my opinion you should leave them out.

John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye w