Why the Warriors are Doomed: (Rowell edition)
As per some requests, I'm cutting and pasting this from the Jack signs extension... thread. Dunno if it works better as its own thread or not, but here it is, unedited from the original:
The move itself could be inconsequential. I think it was a poor basketball decision because I think that Jax, while useful, is being overvalued by many including Rowell and he’s not so valuable that you need to “lock him up” over a period of time where most players see their play decline. He could prove me wrong on the court. He could be so incredibly valuable beyond the box score and could be that rare player who is key to teaching the “young guys” but it’s not an absolute, and if we’re still in teaching mode in two years, other things, as I’ve said before, have gone wrong. If Jax is the kind of guy who without the extension would start holding back, then he’s likely going to find some other reason to become unhappy over 5 years. I just don’t see the reason for it. It doesn’t secure for us some quantity that cannot be found elsewhere if it goes away. It has more of a chance of limiting the team’s flexibility than anything else. If things change and we wanted to trade Jax, he’s now more difficult to trade as I doubt that others will trade on ‘intangibles’ when they come with more years on the back end.
The reason we’re doomed is that this move seems to further indicate that it’s not clear who is in charge. Rowell seemed to be the one pushing this. He’s not a basketball mind, so if he’s calling the shots, expect the shots to be stupid ones, driven by something other than real knowledge of the game. I don’t even know if it’s purely financial, as from a financial standpoint signing Jax isn’t a good move. It won’t sell more seats short term (only winning has ever been demonstrated to do this) and doesn’t really get us a bargain on salary long term, as it’s highly unlikely that teams were going to shell out more than the MLE for Jax when teams were trying to line up for the big boys in the next couple of years when Lebron and Co. come on the market.
It appears we have a defacto GM in Mullin who makes moves that aren’t always on the same page as the coach, acquiring players who aren’t the players the coach wants to use, who have development curves that go well past the point where financial decisions have to be made about keeping the guy. He gets us projects, perhaps good projects, but projects who the coach doesn’t seem to want to help develop. This alone is something of a problem. While early on I, as I think most did, assumed that Mullin consulted with Nelson about his moves since Mullin seemed to be the instrument of Nelson’s return and they had history. Nelson said that the GM duties weren’t his, that Mullin called the shots, but Nelson says many things that aren’t true, so it seemed like he could be providing influence. But as time goes on, as things like trading for Wright (not that I’m against the move, but it seems like Nelson might have been), like trading for Marcus Williams only to not pick up his contract option immediately afterwards, these moves suggest that Mullin operates on his own at least part of the time, enough of the time to make moves that don’t always work best for the team.
A GM and coach on different pages is a problem. Toss in a money man who doesn’t seem to have more than the casual fan’s understanding of the game (read: points per game is the single most useful tool for him) who it seems has both veto power over money (somewhat understanible—it is a business) AND starts calling the shots about who stays and goes independent of GM and coach and we’ve got three cooks pissing in the soup, none of whom seem entirely on the same page. That’s a recipe for things to go wrong. It’s a recipe for no one’s plan no matter how sound it might be, to be allowed to proceed far enough to work out.
We’re doomed because this is another example that it’s a rudderless ship, now tied heavily to the development of players in hand with less recourse if it all falls apart.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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honestly, this is a great analysis
but if we apply occam’s razor this can all be easily resolved: fire mullin.
that is, of course, if “role confusion” is the biggest problem. However, if we are afraid of Rowell’s lack of “basketball knowledge”, I would like to argue the following points:
1.) We don’t have a representative sample of “basketball” decisions to claim either way .
2.) Prior history as a player/coach in the NBA is not correlative to success in a front office position. For every Joe Dumars, there’s an Isaiah Thomas.
3.) Even if there is a lack of basketball IQ, it appears Rowell values Nellie’s advice highly. Individual knowledge is not a requirement for leadership: more valuable is the ability to listen to experts. Nelson and his crew count as experts.
I don’t want Mully to go. He’s done a good job and I think this has more to do with Rowell’s ego — after all, he’s the president and Mully’s just the VP; why should he take orders from Mully? But if Mully goes, besides a dent in our collective sense of nostalgia and attachment, the warriors won’t suffer much. Mully does not have enough leverage to disrupt the workings of the front office.
by dso on
Nov 18, 2008 5:54 PM PST
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go away rowell
if i may counter….
-mullin drafted monte. And rowell is about to run him out of town. Monte is the best talent this franchise has had since gilbert arenas and i think hes better than arenas
-mullin is the guy who found valuable bench players like barnes, ’buke, now morrow.
-mullin drafted biedrins, wright and randolph… biedrins is turning into best center ive seen in my lifetime in a warriors jersey (i’m 24), wright could be a star PF (I’d say probably more just a good starter) and randolph has star potential… eitherway its too early on those 2, but biedrins pick is looking genius.
-if rowell runs monte out of town, we wont see any big free agents ever come here. Most of the league is on monte’s side…. definitely all the players…
by Warriors510 on
Nov 19, 2008 10:07 AM PST
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one more note… mullin as GM has done right thing in drafting… picking players for future. The nature of draft is most players are 19-20. not NBA ready. Nelson wouldnt really be happy with anyone.
What you would prefer we picked robin lopez at 14? He may give more this year but what about in 3-4 years? Thats how a GM is suppose to think. Coach thinks for momment. Right now who is playing best….. you’re always goingg to have GM/coach clashes…. and in nellie’s case especially…. plus he’s 68 and wants to win now as he wont be coaching forever
by Warriors510 on
Nov 19, 2008 10:10 AM PST
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If you do not know whether a player can help you long term by critical decision points in their contracts, drafting for ‘the future’ isn’t a good strategy. The POB may have been able to help “in the future” but the contract decision was in the present.
by jae on
Nov 19, 2008 10:28 AM PST
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what year did mullin take over?? anyway last 5 drafts….
2004-we drafted biedrins
2005-ike diog… but monte in second round
2006-patrick obryant (FLOP
2007- brandon wright, bellinelli
2008- anthony randolph
more importantly… if u look at players passed on diogu we picked 1 before bynum. aside from that no reall major misses. obryant 12 picks before josh boone.. ok boone is much better and useful but he wasnt in discussion at that point in draft. I suppose stuckey went after bwright too…
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i think thats an improvement though to warriors drafts. todd fuller, adonal foyle anybody?
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mullin also executed al harrington.jack trade and baron davis to GS trade
by Warriors510 on
Nov 19, 2008 10:48 AM PST
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yes but its my belief you take the best player in the draft… and in evaluating that you take the player who will be best in nba in long run. not most nba ready player… if so we’d keep drafting shane battiers
by Warriors510 on
Nov 19, 2008 11:24 AM PST
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Putting much if anythign into Randolph’s ‘star potential’ at this point is not really warranted in an endorsement of Mullin. A very, very large number of unproven draft picks have ‘star potential.’ Far, far fewer become stars. Randolph also has ‘bust potential.’
by jae on
Nov 19, 2008 10:26 AM PST
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Don't you think..
it’s possible tat that is why Nellie doesn’t play these players. I’ve had this feeling for awhile now that if he plays his draft picks limited minutes in years on and two – by the time they are up for a new contract they don’t have the statistical record necessary in this league for a max contract? To a certain extent I think that’s what they did with Monta and Beidrins – granted they got pretty good deals so maybe I’m just theorizing.
John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
by triplesix on
Nov 19, 2008 10:35 AM PST
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the problem is
rowell is taking credit for mullin’s successes and heaping blame onto mullin for front office failures.
all contracts for the past six years have had to be approved by rowell, that means the terrible contracts to foyle, dun-murph, fischer and yes, even jrich were approved by rowell. it’s my understanding the the draft picks have been on mulliin, so heap blame there, but i don’t see all that much to complain about. W510 above mentioned the good picks, i’d put mikael and all the underdrafted FA’s (morrow, kaz, cj) in there as well. in the draft, it seems, mullin has succeeded to a good degree. of course, there’s been the PoB’s and Kosta’s as well. mullin is far from perfect.
rowell signing an extension like this to my favorite W is asinine. couple that with the signing of maggs and we are hamstrung at those two spots for players who are both 3rd options on a good team… for a good deal of money. with a healthy monta back and the emerging super star in goose, this could very well be a moot point, this season, next season, but what happens after that? we’ve still got three more years to go on both deals. rowell didn’t want to resign boom dizzle siting long term concerns, ok, so then what’s changed between then and now? boom is the superior player any way you slice it and will be until they both hang it up.
foresight and supreme talent evaluation in the front office builds consistently winning franchises. in nellie and mullin we have the talent evaluators, i’m just wondering about the foresight.
the stop calling him "beans" movement
by pervisNeverNervous on
Nov 19, 2008 10:30 AM PST
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I agree...
that’s what was so confusing about all of these off season moves. If you are going to be fiscally conservative as an organization then be fiscally conservative – the fans will be pissed but we will live with the reality of being in a small market. But, to let Baron walk and then throw money at other FA’s was mind-boggling and disjointed to say the least.
John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
by triplesix on
Nov 19, 2008 10:41 AM PST
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or mind bottling
like when your thoughts are trapped in a bottle
the stop calling him "beans" movement
by pervisNeverNervous on
Nov 19, 2008 12:01 PM PST
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nothing constructive to say
we’ve got three cooks pissing in the soup, none of whom seem entirely on the same page. That’s a recipe for things to go wrong.
That’s more of a recipe for the worst soup ever.
by exl on
Nov 18, 2008 6:08 PM PST
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funny thing
I tried looking up Robert Rowell on wiki, I found this instead:
by runeknightx on
Nov 18, 2008 7:04 PM PST
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LOL
Dammit, they executed the wrong Robert Rowell!!
OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on
Nov 18, 2008 7:13 PM PST
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Maybe he’s screwing things up from beyond the grave. The undead have risen, and they’ve become executive presidents of professional sports franchises.
(This could explain a bunch about Al Davis as well.)
by jae on
Nov 18, 2008 9:08 PM PST
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only winning has been demonstrated to increase ticket sales?
how so? what do you mean by that? where are your statistics? i’m not saying you’re wrong, but back it up. here’s a thought: the 05-06 nuggets attendance on the year was 702,555, with a record of 44-38. in 06-07, the year they acquired A.I., it was 706,437, an increase of 4,118. what was their record? 45-37. now this is only speculation, but i would wager iverson, not the nuggets one additional win, had more to do with those 4,000+ additional attendees.
with regard to jack, i see this as a marketing move, not a basketball move, so to speak. fans did not react well to rowell/cohen’s decision to save money and not re-sign baron, and they responded by making crazy offers to arenas and brand, and then signing maggette for too much money. then jack, having assumed the role of the most visible warriors player, started making noise about getting an extension. i think it’s obvious they felt a need to deliver just to appease hurt fans, therefore delivering higher attendance than if he had been rebuffed, while still not having to spend max-type money on a legit star free agent in the coming years(IMO, as internet types are want to say these days…)
josh Howard 4 President! We need a REAL black man in the white house!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on
Nov 18, 2008 7:19 PM PST
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0.5%
I’m guessing that JAE was talking about a more significant increase than 0.5% but I’m not sure. If I remember correctly he has said in the past that stars can cause a “bump” in attendance but that winning is the only thing that regularly correlates with attendance. AI is probably one of those guys that can get you a bump in attendance but if they don’t win they probably won’t keep coming.
"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy
by olympicmike on
Nov 18, 2008 8:11 PM PST
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AI kept attendence up in Phili even after they starting sucking alot worse
"Get Er Dun!"
by YayArea510 on
Nov 20, 2008 1:33 PM PST
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Did it change much when he left?
I haven’t looked up the figures…
"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy
by olympicmike on
Nov 21, 2008 12:13 AM PST
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such research is reported here:
Berri, D. J., Schmidt, M. B., & Brook, S. L. (2004). Stars at the gate: The impact of star power on NBA gate revenues. Journal of Sports Economics, 5(1), 33-50
and here
Berri, David J., and Martin B. Schmidt. (2006). "On the Road with the National Basketball Association’s Superstar Externality." Journal of Sports Economics,7, n4; (November): 347-35
and in articles cited within. Similar effects (winning drives ticket sales) are noted and reported in other sports.
I should have been more specific.Other things impact attendance, like the economy and the weather, But IN GENERAL, the only way to sustain higher attendance (or keep attendance high in cases where arenas are sold out) is to win. Star power is very, very short lived for home attendance if it doesn’t mean wins. Do note that your example showed a difference of about 100 tickets a game over the course of the season and a total that is probably not statistically significantly different. A bad snowstorm for one game could account for the entirety of the difference (not saying this happened, but it’s possible—an increase in less than half a percent is pretty close to noise. I’d also want to know if the arena had any modifications, if more seats were actually available, )
I was disparaging of the idea that Jax was signed because he’s a popular player and and thus Rowell thought he’d make money off of the popularity. If Jax doesn’t play on a winner, he won’t sell tickets. His popularity won’t make the team money if he doesn’t bring wins.
by jae on
Nov 18, 2008 9:38 PM PST
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i believe the term is "pwned"
well, i asked, and you delivered. i must admit the example i chose really did not demonstrate a valid counter argument at all, but i’m really not the research type. i’m more of a baseless speculation type of guy. however, we both seem to have been aiming to disparage “the idea that Jax was signed because he’s a popular player”, so i’ll take solice in that.
josh Howard 4 President! We need a REAL black man in the white house!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on
Nov 19, 2008 2:05 AM PST
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So the interesting thing about a guy like Iverson: while the stars don’t show much of a long term affect in home ticket sales unless they bring more wins (they could show a short gain, like the 4000 or so increase), they do draw more on the road. People pay to see visiting stars. But this doesn’t affect overall gate for a team since very little of the home receipts are shared in the NBA. The Nuggets getting Iverson probably slightly helped the Warriors, since it meant that instead of one visit a year, he’d play here twice.
by jae on
Nov 19, 2008 6:55 AM PST
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Baseless speculation?
Maybe that should be the new GSoM motto. You’re not the only one of us!
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 19, 2008 8:22 AM PST
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I think that's the first time I've seen someone posterized by a bibliography
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 9:28 AM PST
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nellie and baron
Jae
I agree with you on all points, but i also want to ass something else:
You are right, Nellie talks a lot about everything, but a lot of times he is not speaking the truth. I think that Nellie was pissed last year, he wanted Baron to pass a lot more, Baron didn’t deliver and Nellie called Rowell that he wants Baron to go. Baron wanted extension, Mullin set it up, but Rowell got a word from Nellie not to do it. Rowell does not have that kind of ego or particular interest in making decisions related to basketball, however he made decisions on Nellie’s behalf, while Mullin is still in the office.
At first I thought that was wrong decision, but seeing Baron’s game the other day, I’m not sure anymore. Baron is playing a bit too selfish in certain situations. As Geoff Lepper pointed out, it only took Baron 3 min at the start of the game to break up the play and jack up contested 3.
by farid on
Nov 18, 2008 7:39 PM PST
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Ummm...
Is this Nellie/Baron feud based on fact, or is it “Baseless speculation”? I’ve heard nothing about this before. Please forward some documented work.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 19, 2008 8:24 AM PST
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umm
can you read?
nellie/baron feud? where did you read that? i said nellie didn’t like baron getting extension with dubz.
documented work? nellies diary?
this is my analysis, if you can’t add anything positive why waste your effort on something stupid? if you don’t like don’t read it then.
and show some respect when you comment on other people ideas, i don’t dis your comments. this thread is called ‘we are doomed (rowell’s edition) and i just wanted to point out that i don’t think that this is all rowell, and it really looks like it has nellies fingerprints.
by farid on
Nov 19, 2008 8:20 PM PST
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I think that Nellie was pissed last year, he wanted Baron to pass a lot more, Baron didn’t deliver and Nellie called Rowell that he wants Baron to go.
If it don’t qualify as a “feud” when a coach gets pissed at a star player and tells the “real GM” to send the star on his way, I don’t know what does.
You’re speculating on what Nellie, Rowell, Mullin, and Baron were actually doing. Provide some evidence or I’ll continue to question your analysis and ASK FOR EVIDENCE, which is all I did. I’m sorry if you took offense to my request, but clearly you have nothing to back up your analysis.
FYI, from looking at the sky, my analysis suggests that space is blue, stars are really freaking small (like nanometers), and the sun is about a meter in diameter. What? You want evidence? Screw you!
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 6:50 AM PST
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Damage Control
I’ve always seen the extension as damage control for the mess that happened this offseason.
You have Baron Davis who’s claiming to have an understanding with Mullin only to be shoved aside by Rowell. Then you have Monta, who was gonna be the heir-apparent to the throne, until he gets into a moped accident. Rowell, a business guy-first, wants the option to void Monta’s contract which doesn’t suit with Ellis of course.
So SJax moves atop the chain of command (among players). While the right move basketball-wise (both on and off the court) was obviously to wait, giving him an extension is sort of damage control for what the Warriors did this offseason.
In one off season, the Warriors dumped the superstar who led us to the playoffs after a 13-yr drought (and almost led us again last year) then threaten to void the contract of a budding star after already laying down a costly punishment. That definitely did not send a good message to the rest of the league.
Like Bimbo Coles Experience said, “[the Warriors] felt a need to deliver just to appease” somebody. But I don’t think it’s not fans they are reaching out to, it’s the rest of league. Players talk to each other and the way the Warriors dealt with their free agents past couple of seasons I’m pretty sure there are a couple of guys that doesn’t have nice things to say about the franchise. Jason Richardson, Matt Barnes, Mickael Pietrus and now Baron, Monta to name a few.
SJax is sort of the face of the Warriors right now with Monta out and Biedrins just making his claim. If they do wrong with SJax, they’re further risking the image of the franchise.
Not only would guys stay away from signing with the Warriors even more, some of the young guys might not want to stay when their rookie contracts are up. Then we end up overpaying for players just to get them here again.
by lightz0ut on
Nov 18, 2008 7:44 PM PST
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what he said!
i think this fellow more aptly elucidated my intended argument. “damage control” is the operative term here.
josh Howard 4 President! We need a REAL black man in the white house!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on
Nov 19, 2008 2:10 AM PST
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Astute analysis of the situation
And I think it all stems from a clueless owner. Rudderless. Or three rudders. Or three captains. It’s all the same, because the ship doesn’t go in a straight line, and even if it could, nobody can agree on where it should go!
Mullin, like most of us, seems to have tired of Nelson’s undersized teams, and acquired lots of big guys, perhaps in order to “force” Nelson to “play bigger.” If Nelson’s trying to work behind the scenes to marginalize Mullin, that is the logical reason.
Seems like a good coach should adjust his plan to fit his personel. Nelson seems to be insisting that the personel fit his plan. Cohan won’t put his foot down either way. As a result there’s unhappiness and confusion all around.
by formerlythecity on
Nov 18, 2008 9:00 PM PST
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i dont think nelson dislikes big players… but look at it… our big gus r YOUNG…. our swing players r maggette (29) jack (30) azabuke (25) and so on.. i think randolph wright will be fine nba players, but u gotta admit watching them they r wildly inconsistant like all players there age. i dont think nelli can stand that he’d rather know what he can get than not.
if i remember correctly he drafted dirk, and of course Cweb…
by Warriors510 on
Nov 19, 2008 5:52 PM PST
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YAY!!!
Hurrah!!! You get a rec.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 6:50 AM PST
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Couple of comments:
1. It’s not a basketball or a financial move, it’s a political power move. Those always confound the analytically intelligent because the serve no “greater” organizational end. This move is to align himself with Jackson. He has just given Jackson, someone who can cause problems and, more importantly, is insanely loyal to those who “have his back”. He just bought himself a huge ally in the war against Mullin and Ellis and god knows who else he’s afraid of.
2. I’m still driving the “Mullin got a whole lot smarter once Nelson arrived” train. Nelson misses on people too, so I wouldn’t say that the people that Mullin acquired and Nelson didn’t use like Marcus Williams, were Mullin picks. Williams has the tools to be a good point guard and he’s big like Nelson likes. I think Belinelli was a Nelson pick as well as Hendrix. These are low-risk mistakes either way. The Murphy and Dunleavy and, to a certain extent Derek Fisher, contracts were absolute incompetence. Hopefully Rowell learns from Mark Cuban that thinking you know more about basketball than Don Nelson is a bad thing for you and your franchise. I am referring to letting Steve Nash go so he could throw piles of money at Dampier. Oh and then getting his ass handed to him in court.
Regardless, your conclusion is correct. The franchise is doomed. The good news is that it appears that the global economy is doomed so maybe Rowell just wants to keep the franchise on the bleeding edge.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 18, 2008 11:27 PM PST
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Mullin did seem to get smarter when Nelson arrived, though I don’t think it’s so smart that it can’t possibly just be a couple of lucky breaks. Still, some cases where he’s missed haven’t even been close. Williams is acquired and so seldom used even in glaring need of a point guard. I can’t imagine that Nelson wouldn’t try him out somewhat more than he has if he was at all interested in him before the acquisition. Same thing with Wright. It just doesn’t look like Nelson ever had interest in these guys. The newbies he’s played have been D-leaguers and such, guys who came into camp and fought for jobs. I’m not unhappy with this entirely since the off the street pickups have been good. Hell, I’m about one game and another couple slugs of whiskey away from anointing Morrow as high-diety of the outside shot. It’s just not clear that Nelson and Mullin work together on fielding the team.
by jae on
Nov 19, 2008 7:01 AM PST
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asdf
I’m about one game and another couple slugs of whiskey away from anointing Morrow as high-diety of the outside shot.
You’re not the only one of us “wait-n-see” types in this situation right now…
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 19, 2008 8:29 AM PST
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Nelson requires 2 things from players, that he really can't know before aquiring them (with rare exception)
1. Can the player get in Nellie-ball shape? How crucial this is to getting playing time depends on how good and experienced a player is. Baron got away with it and so did Harrington (for a while). But Marcus Williams did not. Remember, once he hit his target weight, he was activated and played some. I still think he’s going to be a regular NBA player. He is a dynamic passer and a big body.
But he can’t tell if a player can make the commitment to getting and staying in shape. It’s not easy. It takes a lifestyle change. you have to eat differently, all the time. That’s hard for anyone and Nelson just can’t know someone’s mental fortitude and commitment until he’s challenged them with his Nellie mind games. I still think Williams was worth the risk.
2. Nelson will find a player’s strengths and tell him to only do those things. If he is successful he’ll try and add more responsibilities, if he fails with those increased responsibilities, he gets relegated to performing the tasks that Nelson has specified for him. Pietrius, Foyle, POB, Harrington.
Some guys are just too stubborn to listen. We saw this explode with Webber refusing to play center and Patrick Ewing refusing to share the low block with Anthony Mason.
We saw it here with Foyle. Nelson said lose weight. Foyle did. Nelson said, I want you to rebound, defend and block shots (ala Turiaf) but Foyle wanted to score and he sucked at scoring. That was it. Foyle is gone.
We’re seeing it with Al Harrington. Harrington thinks he’s a superstar. Only Harrington and his agent share that belief. Nelson asks him to do certain things and not do others. Harrington does what he wants and gets yanked. When he follows directions he plays.
We saw it work with Pietrus to a certain extent. He hit the corner three, rebounded and defended. Every time Nelson added responsibilities to his plate, it was too much for MP’s limited brain to handle. MP thought he was a superstar too, but he listened, played his role and eventually got his contract from Orlando. I would have pet him here at $3.5m a year for 5 years if he would have stayed.
B-Wright: Get back on D, rebound, be aggressive on offense. When he does these things he plays. He still makes mistakes by being in the wrong spots sometimes but I would actually say that Wright is someone who Nelson likes, he just needs to keep on him about being aggressive and hustling back.
Nelson asks these two things of all non-star players. If they can’t/won’t do it they don’t play. So, if one of these two reasons are why Nelson isn’t playing someone, I wouldn’t necessarily conclude that he’s a Mullin guy that Nelson didn’t want.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 11:11 AM PST
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point #1
is a good one. If I remember even Mullin credits Nelson with really turning his life around and getting him committed to being an NBA elite player.
John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
by triplesix on
Nov 19, 2008 11:22 AM PST
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The irony about #1
is that Nelson can’t keep his own weight down. It balloons over the course of the season then he kind of slims down in the off-season.
I guess you don’t have to be in great shape to pace around and yell at people while constantly looking as if your going to vomit. Plus he’s old and has accomplished more as a player than most of the people that have ever played under him.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 11:27 AM PST
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Great comment... Rec!
Good insight into the way Nelson handles his guys. I think you pretty much nailed it. Everyone says that there is so much freedom in his coaching style but that freedom comes in stages and is earned.
I think of it like an old-school arcade game. He starts you off at level 1 of space invaders. If you succeed you get to level 2 if not you are a level one player. If thats all you can do well that’s all you get to do. Some guys are level 2 guys and think that they are level 5 guys. That’s when you have problems.
"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy
by olympicmike on
Nov 19, 2008 1:41 PM PST
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Move it to a...
FanPost!
(You can probably tell we’re trying to make a little push at GSoM to get higher quality/ more intelligent FanPosts and dialogue here. Just makes it a more enjoyable experience for all of us.)
by Atma Brother ONE on
Nov 19, 2008 1:46 PM PST
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That would be awesome if you just wanted me to do that so you could delete it
Then I’d be like: “Why are you censoring me? Free speech?”
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 2:02 PM PST
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Then I'd choke on my own drool.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 2:03 PM PST
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Probably wouldnt be the first time youve done that
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on
Nov 20, 2008 12:08 AM PST
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I have to hand it to you
That’s the first mildly coherent thing you’ve ever said. Bravo.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 7:00 AM PST
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It’s just not clear that Nelson and Mullin work together on fielding the team.
I think that’s one of the biggest blanks to fill in.
Nelson has always defended himself as having played young guys, just not the ones we’re expecting. It’s easy to come up with the theory that Mullin decided on his own to take a flyer on guys like Wright, Randolph, Williams. It seems like a good theory, since why would Nellie bench all these players who are dubbed “high potential” guys and run with the other youngins who, with the exception of Morrow, has not been all the impressive at all.
But then, you can’t rule out that it was Nellie’s mistake also. The two could have made the decision together but now it all falls into Nellie’s hands. Nellie probably thought Williams would be a perfect fit, but found out soon enough that he’s not the guy he envisioned him to be. The last two drafts we drafted two skinny forwards who can run and handle the ball, a “shooter”, and a banger. The first two are supposed to be a “perfect fit” for the system while the last two was supposed to fill the needs from the previous season.
Working together or not, the players drafted was thought to be guys who would fit in the system. But that’s where the big blank draws a blur. Was it just Mullin’s decision or was it Mullin and Nelson’s?
by lightz0ut on
Nov 19, 2008 12:03 PM PST
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I honestly think it was 80% Nelson
I can’t see Nelson saying, “I don’t want this guy” and Mullin getting him anyways.
I can see Nelson saying, “I want this guy” and Mullin getting him that guy despite not wanting him.
I’m sure they discuss everything and Mullin will find guys like Morrow and Barnes, but I’d be shocked if Nelson didn’t approve every one of these pick-ups and be able to veto, privately with Mullin, any trade.
That’s just speculation based on how Mullin behaved prior to Nelson and after Nelson. Rowell has been there the whole time as a constant.
I think Mullin is a good raw talent evaluator. I can not find the interview with Kawakami and Mullin sitting in the bleachers watching Andris practice before his rookie season and Mullin was pointing out to Kawakami how Andris’s hands are just something that people that size do not have.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 12:13 PM PST
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one thing we’re forgetting is its alot harder as a big man to adjust to nba then as a swing player… I’m sure on watching film and seeing work outs and draft camps nelson saw wright and randolph as ideal fits… (and lets be honest, with some developement they are. They r long, good hands, athletic, fast…. nelsons not 1 to play a halfcourt slow em down back to basket for 15 second type of guy.)
but once they go on the court, nellie wants to win as bad as anyone and he fields who will win at that exact momment. For better or worse, nelson is not 1 to coach ‘for the future’ and play randolph 10-15 straight minutes with multiple mess ups to ‘develop’ him… he’ll play him if hes doing well in practice and on the floor.
1 final thought. Perhaps its a good thing. Look at andris. Worked HARD and is improving beyond what anyone thought. He didnt develop many bad habits and elevated his game. now look at tyrus thomas…. how lost does he look. how much potential did he have, yet never got anywhere. We dont want wright or randolph turning that route, even if it is frustrating not seeing as much of them now
by Warriors510 on
Nov 19, 2008 12:33 PM PST
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The difference between the guys brought in who have played and the ones who haven’t is not insignificant. Barnes was a non-roster invitee to camp. He came in, impressed in practice, impressed with some PT, worked his way into an important role. I don’t know if Mullin “got him” so much as every team invites some non-roster guys to camp. He was one who stuck once Nellie saw him. If he hadn’t, we would talk about him about as often as we talk about Dejuan Wagner.. Azubuike was a call up for emergency situation who stuck because he gave something that Nelson liked. Tossed into the fray, he played, Nellie liked what he saw, they kept him. If he was a bust, he’d have been gone in 10 days, we’d hear nothing of it, and he’d be regarded in the same way that Renaldo Major is regarded. Mistaken pickup? Naw, just a warm body that they needed for a game.
Azubuike and Barnes (and now Watson and Demarcus N. and Morrow) were acquisitions who were brought in for immediate need and/or essentially got on the job try outs where a decision could be made after getting some first hand experience with the player. If they hadn’t been able to satisfy Nellie, they’d have gone away quickly or never made the cut in camp. And we’d not consider them. For the Barnes and Morrows and Nelsons to come into camp, there have been Pierre Pierces and such who didn’t have what it took.
The draftees were different. Marcus Williams They were scouted (presumably), maybe held a private workout, but they were never put through the paces in the same way you can with a job on the line, with the coach trying to instill in them the urgency of learning the system of doing what he wants. They were higher exposure acquisitions, ones where there wasn’t the option to get, then jettison in quite the same way (though that’s more or less what happened with Lasme). I don’t know if Nellie approved them or not, but it looks like he likes to put guys through the paces to see what he’s got. The pre-scouting hasn’t gone quite so well.
Mullin made some reasonable draft picks before Nelson, as good or better than he’s done since. What he didn’t do well was decide who to sign and for how much.
I can’t see Mullin and Nellie completely defying each other’s wishes, but I can see Nellie sipping some scotch and saying “do what you want to, you’re the GM” knowing that he’ll also do what he wants to and doesn’t care if the guy is a #8 pick or a walkon. He’ll play what he thinks will win.
by jae on
Nov 19, 2008 2:36 PM PST
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He’ll play what he thinks will win.
I as a fan have absolutely no problem with that. I think what fans are clamoring for is a stated vision.
John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
by triplesix on
Nov 19, 2008 2:43 PM PST
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No
Many fans are clammoring for more BWright, more Belinelli, more of “Player X who was drafted, so he must be good”. If some fan needs a “stated vision” of “We’re going to try to win the next game”, what rock have they been living under?
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 19, 2008 2:58 PM PST
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I was referring...
to the seemingly disorganized front office and what amounts to rumor-milling of which feud is with who, and whose side is this or that person on, why did we draft AR when we have BW, why did we sign Maggette, why did we let Baron walk and then throw 100 million at Arenas and Brand, this new Jackson extension, etc….
A vision that states where we are going and what we are trying to accomplish – obviously we are trying to win each and every game.
John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
by triplesix on
Nov 19, 2008 3:08 PM PST
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I have a theory about the Oracle's man-crush on Marco Belinelli
and it has almost nothing to do with the fact he’s white.
That summer league game where he went nuts and people went nuts for him set the expectation but if you’ve seen him play, he doesn’t function at all within an offense because he only hits crazy looking shots.
So why, after watching 1+ seasons of this guy hurling bricks with T-Hud like reglarity? Because it looks really cool when he hits a shot. He twists, fades, launches and the ball just explodes into the net. Like a guy who throws 99mph or a hitter with freakish power, it’s fun to watch.
I didn’t say it was a great theory, but, since he kind of sucks at helping the team win basketball games, that’s all I could think of.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 4:49 PM PST
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ginobili
he resembles ginobili, his game does too… lets face it guys like that r super exciting…. but yes the oracle loves him
plus his name is fun to say BELLINELLI!
by Warriors510 on
Nov 19, 2008 6:01 PM PST
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he resembles ginobili, his game does too… lets face it guys like that r super exciting…
You gotta be kidding? El Contusion is one of the most hated players in basketball.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Nov 19, 2008 7:37 PM PST
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hated, but exciting….. cmon everyone likes awkward white guys balling it up, its funny
by Warriors510 on
Nov 20, 2008 9:30 AM PST
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Mike Dunleavy Jr. begs to differ
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 10:23 AM PST
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Ginobli goes hard to the rim
Belinelli throws the ball hard off of the rim
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 7:51 PM PST
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Very nice quote
Did you come up with it yourself? I just wanna know who to credit when I repeat it.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 6:52 AM PST
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Yes, but sadly I fear it may be my Magnum Opus :(
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 7:02 AM PST
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Nah
That was your alternate Option Zero webpin.
By your lofty standards, this was a garden variety Opus…

OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on
Nov 20, 2008 4:27 PM PST
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Just for you

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 5:58 PM PST
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thank you...
a classic. One of these days if I lose my job and have too much time onmy hands I’m going to make a collage of a bunch of the old webpins for my desktop. If I ever do that (gosh I hope not) this and sleepy’s “Ellis to the Rim” will be front and center… Next to Dwight and the big badge.
"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy
by olympicmike on
Nov 21, 2008 12:17 AM PST
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Just for you
… see end of this thread ….
OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on
Nov 21, 2008 6:28 PM PST
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Re: don’t know if Mullin "got him" so much as every team invites some non-roster guys to camp
If a “team” invites some non-roster guys to camp, that means the GM or someone that works for the team invites someone to camp. Remember, people weren’t beating down Matt Barnes’s door considering he was weighing the Raiders as an option. Morrow was weighing Ukraine (Ukraine is probably a better run franchise than the Raiders too). So who found these two guys and invited them to camp when they were on the brink of being out of American Basketball? Chris Mullin? Don Nelson? The enigmatic Mr. Team?
Someone made the decision to bring these guys in when other teams didn’t. Why did every other team sleep on CJ and Kalenna? Nobody else had injuries or people playing below replacement level?
The failures you mention: Pierre Pierce was a multiple violent sex offender who may or may not have been granted permission to leave the state of Iowa (talk about punishment). Dejuan Wagner’s colon broke again so he couldn’t play although they thought he had rectified, ahem, his condition. Major was too fill the roster during the Indiana trade, that was an emergency situation.
Also, Mullin is a really good evaluator of raw talent (Ellis & Andris and even Taft) but he doesn’t do too well on the enablers of that raw talent like brains and work-ethic. Diagou, who was just too dumb to play in the NBA (he should have played baseball), and Mullin’s standard line as why Diagou over Warwick (who everyone had the Warriors picking) was “we like Ike”. Seriously, he said that like 90 times. POB is a talented big man who can pass, block shots and score and is almost out of the league.
Notice that two things have happened since Nelson has exerted his will over the personnel decisions:
1. The dumb players are gone and replaced with reasonably intelligent to really smart players. That is essential for Nelson because you have to make decisions in his system. Seriously, Monta may be the least smartest guy on the team and he’s, at worst, slightly above-average upstairs.
2. Nelson players hit free throws.
Why didn’t Mullin, who was supposedly such a smart player, take that into consideration before Nelson arrived? Why were the value of free throws not emphasized before Nelson arrived?
Nelson is F’ing A smart. He’s smarter than Mullin, Rowell and possibly even Franco Fin. I’m guessing he doesn’t even have to veto anything directly because he is a master of imposing his will through psychological manipulation and I’m sure he used it on the front office. Do you really think Mullin could overrule Nelson? I am almost certain Mullin has personnel control to the extent Nelson let’s him.
2. Nelson clubs hit free throws. He did what he could with what he had (Monciref and that old white guy “Hal” everyone blew off) and got rid of most everybody else who couldn’t shoot free throws.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 4:40 PM PST
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The “failures” I mentioned were people whose names I could remember. I didn’t mention them to indicate any failure. It’s not a failure for a min salary type to be worthless. EVERY team brings guys into camp who don’t make it. EVERY team has short lived call ups who disappear afterwards. That’s not failure. It was a comparison that if Barnes or Watson didn’t work out, they’d join the longer list of nonroster invitees who don’t stick and no one would be critical. No one would have a right to be. It is possible that Mullin saw something no one else did. It’s also possible that he got lucky on the multiple opportunities to have something happen there when the draft is essentially a one shot deal. There aren’t do overs in picks. There are in the NBDL types. One comes up, flops, another one is there.
We really don’t have a way of determining the difference (if there is one) or how much luck contributes on top of good scouting on these types. I suspect we’ve done above average over the last few years in getting players off the scrap heap who can contribute. It’s possible that Mullin and/or Nellie had a unique eye and took chances where no one else did. It’s possible that other teams invited them to camp as well and something drew them here. I really don’t know.
I don’t know who found the non roster invitees and convinced them to come to camp either. Mullin? Nelson? Some assistant? Again, maybe Pree can shed some light. It just appears to me that Nellie is more likely to use a player that he can see, who he can jettison without any of us noticing (ala Renaldo Major) and woudn’t ever consider a failure if he was back at OAK in line at the Southwest counter (wanna get away?) but shows him something than use the guys picked up in the draft. It could be small sample size, but that appears to be how things are. It seems like all of the rookie draftees handed to Nellie have been more or less shelved, even when walk ons were getting PT. I really just curious why there’s a difference. Why we’re having success where you’d not expect to find talent but not so much where you’d most expect to find it.
Could Nellie overrule Mullin or vice versa? Dunno one way or another. I don’t know that Mullin overrules Nellie so much as Nellie just doesn’t always make that an issue. Nellie claims the GM decisions are all Mullin. True? Who knows. Maybe Pree can say more.
by jae on
Nov 19, 2008 5:53 PM PST
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i would have to say...
thta history favors Nelson in the D-League “eyeing talent” department over Mullin. Remember his first stint – he made Mario Elie a GOOD NBA player.
John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
by triplesix on
Nov 19, 2008 6:31 PM PST
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And Vincent Askew
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 8:38 PM PST
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that...
was the name of the other guy – I couldn’t recall it last night but if memory serves he was a pretty solid role player brought in from the CBA.
John 8:44 -Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
by triplesix on
Nov 20, 2008 11:29 AM PST
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The Mavs and Pacers haven't EVER "called up" anyone from the D-League
but I get the larger point which is the same point that I am trying to make: Just because a guy doesn’t stick doesn’t mean he was Mullin’s guy and Nelson didn’t want him to begin with. The variables that are hard to scout are brains and desire. There is no way for Nelson to tell whether or not he can manipulate and motivate a guy until he works and talks to him a bit. Remeber the knock on Azibuike was that he had no desire. Remember Tubby Smiths quote: “Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane”? Now he’s a perfect Nelson guy. Does the specific things Nelson asks of him and does them well. Doesn’t stray too much from the plan. He’s not a star but he knows that listening to Nelson is maximizing his potential.
It seems like all of the rookie draftees handed to Nellie have been more or less shelved, even when walk ons were getting PT. I really just curious why there’s a difference. Why we’re having success where you’d not expect to find talent but not so much where you’d most expect to find it.
The reason why Morrow and Kurz were on the scrap heap is because they stayed in college for 4 years. That’s the kiss of death now. There’s little to no “up-side” The NBA is a superstar league. You don’t win championships without a Superstar unless you are Detroit. The draft lottery is where teams go to try and get a star or a franchise player. That’s they only way to get your franchise out of the Lottery. Because the big talent guys go pro after one year, the teams looking to get a big-time player have to use their picks on “up-side” like Wright and Randolph. I don’t think anyone in the franchise thought they would contribute immediately, they’re kids. Look at Andris, he was lost for 2 years collecting fouls and looking lost. Now his upside has come to fruition. It’s a gamble because there’s not enough history to see how a guy progresses from year to year in college (forget the name Todd Fuller) so you gamble on potential. Would you rather have Kwame Brown or Shane Battier?
There aren’t do overs in picks. There are in the NBDL types. One comes up, flops, another one is there.
Which is why you shoot the moon in the draft and plug holes via free agents, both veteran and undrafted.
So, there is no circumstantial evidence that Mullin ever brought in a single player that Nelson didn’t want’ They’re close friends, Nelson has been his teacher in basketball and in life. I can’t see Mullin ever having a role larger than saying “hey Nellie, do you like this guy, I think he’s good because of x, y and z”? You like cabbages?
Regardless, all we are doing is speculating, it would be interesting to hear an insider’s perspective.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 9:04 PM PST
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he’s, at worst, slightly above-average upstairs.
What evidence do you have to support this? not going to college? his moped mastery??
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Nov 19, 2008 7:41 PM PST
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Watching how he plays the game, his ability to learn PG skills
listening to him being interviewed. I mean, I don’t have his Wonderlick scores but I can tell whether a guy is smart or not from listing to him and observing him over several years.
You couldn’t tell that Baron Davis is an exceptionally smart guy for an NBA player? Stephen Jackson? You couldn’t tell that MP2 was kind of dim? Troy Murphy?
Not going to college turned out to be a really freaking smart move don’t you think? Like $66 mil . . er $63 million smart.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 19, 2008 8:44 PM PST
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You couldn’t tell that Baron Davis is an exceptionally smart guy for an NBA player?
Boom, Yeah, Jax too. Pietrus? cause I can’t understand french. but Montay never sounds like he has an intelligent thought in his head.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Nov 20, 2008 9:51 AM PST
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Re: but Montay never sounds like he has an intelligent thought in his head.
His delivery is slooooooooooow, and he’s got that lazy eye which makes him look like he’s not engaged in the topic. But I’ve heard him explain what he’s good at and why and how he does it. If you listen to what he says, he understands what he’s doing. Also, he was able to change his game to recognize open players on the drive and also run the pick and roll which shows a pretty good basketball IQ.
Based on watching MP2 play for his entire career I have concluded that he has a lower basketball IQ than the basteball. He’s funny though and could throw down like D-Wade on the odd occasion that he made it all the way to the rim with the ball. One of my favorite Warriors ever.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 10:30 AM PST
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Basteball = Basketball in my language
Never said I was smart.
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by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 10:32 AM PST
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Basteball ?
you thinking about turkey too?
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Nov 20, 2008 10:42 AM PST
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Monta isn't smart
I went to high school in Mississippi and my friend is Monta’s cousin. He failed one year and His coach got him through 10th & 12th grade (turned 20 the year he was drafted) and that is the true reason why he didn’t go to college. If he did go to college, it would have been somewhere in Mississippi where he is well known and they could get him through his classes.
"Get Er Dun!"
by YayArea510 on
Nov 20, 2008 2:11 PM PST
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Success in school is not the only indication of intelligence
Mississippi isn’t exactly known for its school system either. Also, how interested do you think he was in school work when he’s Mr. Basketball?
Famous High School dropouts:
Richard Branson… Billionaire British businessman.
George Carlin… Comedian.
Jim Carrey… Comedian and actor.
Tom Cruise… Actor
George Eastman… Founder of the Kodak company.
Albert Einstein… Mathematician.
Michael J. Fox… Actor.
George Gershwin… Composer
Wright brothers… Inventors of the airplane.
Peter Jennings… News anchor and reporter.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 3:53 PM PST
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I agree 100% about school
but it is a great indicator in most cases when proving intellegence…
Yeah, Missississippi isn’t the best school system but Oprah, Morgan Freeman & Richard Wright would probably argue the opposite.
Trust me, Monta isn’t the smartest from great sources (his cousin)and for every dumb Mr. Basketball, there’s an Emeka Okafor or the Aboya kid from UCLA….
"Get Er Dun!"
by YayArea510 on
Nov 20, 2008 11:21 PM PST
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One more for your list...
olympicmike… Blog dweller.
"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy
by olympicmike on
Nov 21, 2008 12:20 AM PST
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Famous High School dropouts:
Now give me a list of famous high school graduates? I bet it’s longer?
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Nov 21, 2008 10:25 AM PST
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I have a diploma and a GED. Does that count?
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 21, 2008 8:24 PM PST
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Just like Annie would say
sorry guys, all this talk bout GMs, Presidents, marketing, etc. is killing me after a great and exciting win against the Trailblazers. As a long time Warriors fans, I have to look at the positive and all I can say (or sing) is……
To-morrow, I love u, To-morrow, your only 2 days (or nights) away!!!!!!!!
by nuttinbutnet on
Nov 18, 2008 11:47 PM PST
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hahahahahahahaha
Everytime there is a “fire Robert Rowell” thread started the Warriors win. So all I gotta say is keep it up!
Seriously what are we Knicks fans? Are we not recruiting talent? Are we not paying players that deserve it?
Let me ask you this, do you think the Suns have a good owner? Because he keeps GIVING away his picks so he doesnt pay luxury tax. Who were those picks? Oh no one important people like Luol Deng, Rudy Fernandez. You know no big deal…
My fingers are falling off from telling you guys, the team is in the best shape it has been in YEARS. Youth for years to come, our core players locked up for years to come, our coaching locked up for years to come.
Im sorry, Michael Jordan was not availble.
Yeah Fire Rowell, and bring whoelse in? Another Basketball player who never passed an economics class?
Werent you the same guy who said we should treat our players with class when I said the void of Monta Ellis’ contract could be valid? I dont get you guys…
On 1 end you say locking up a player who is “on the decline” ( last time I checked he had 20pts 8 reb 8 assists hardly declining, in fact he is improving. ) is a bad move, but on the other end you dont mind locking up someone for 66 million dollars WHO MIGHT NOT EVEN PLAY HALF AS GOOD as he did before?
You guys just sound like a bunch of angry moms at a PTA meeting that the new English teacher wears a Rage Against the Machine shirt and you think its a bad influence on 9 year old Tommy.
GET OFF IT. Stop predicting or paying that jamaican tarot carrot reader your money and start investing in some Warriors tickets and a Morrow jersey.
Stop saying its “stupid shots”. Tell me 1 dumb move he has made, and also tell me why its dumb with FACTS not predictions, FACTS…. thanks!
by sjboy on
Nov 19, 2008 8:29 AM PST
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Werent you the same guy who said we should treat our players with class when I said the void of Monta Ellis’ contract could be valid? I dont get you guys…
Which “you” are you referring to? Me? Someone else who replied to this thread? A collective that’s easy to address because it doesn’t really respresent anyone in particular but personifies some nebulous notion you attribute to a variety of posters?
Dumb move Rowell has made: Signing Jax to an extension when it wasn’t necessary and will mean paying a guy more than he’s paid now when he’s past his physical peak.
by jae on
Nov 19, 2008 8:41 AM PST
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I was replying to you Jae
Dumb move Rowell has made: Signing Jax to an extension when it wasn’t necessary and will mean paying a guy more than he’s paid now when he’s past his physical peak.
That is NOT a fact. That is an assumption. Who leads the league in minutes? Thats right Stephen Jackson at 43 per game. Why would a person past his physical peak still be able to play such minutes?
Last night he hit the game winning fadeway jumpshot that basically sunk the Blazers.
So by these FACTS it makes your ASSUMPTION false. We all like to think as a player gets older they slow down, but Jackson is not showing no such signs.
I will agree they did NOT have to do it, but it shows you what type of Organization they are molding themselves into and that is a rewarding one. Like “hey come here and contribute, and well take care of you”.
Jackson is the face of the franchise, not Ellis not Biedrins. I have no problem paying a LEADER in the locker room full of youth ( the youngest team in the NBA by FAR… )
I dont understand how you cannot understand this. We need an older guy with WORLDS of experience in the locker room to teach these you guys.
Same with Corey Maggette. Have you seen the dude? Incredible physical stature, having him in the locker room and teaching guys how to eat, and take care of themselves SUPER valuable.
Dont think health is really important? haha Than you dont know the NBA.
Now take those 2 huge signings and see what else they bring off the court, and on the court, its a slam dunk.
STOP COMPLAINING.
by sjboy on
Nov 19, 2008 11:18 AM PST
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Sure,
if you are satisfied with keeping a possible 500 team coached by a fun gimmicy coach, sure by all means keep Rowell around.
I am only 25 so, so sure, making the playoffs would be awesome for the Warriors, but call me crazy, but since theres 30 teams in the NBA, and 16 make the playoffs, it would be nice if we one day had team that could compete for a championship(yes I said championship).
Jackson, Maggette, Ellis and Biedrins isnt getting you there, possibly playoffs, but never a championship. And Rowell just extended a coach notorius for his hatred or young big guys that cant shoot and our best young talent happens to be exactly that.
So great, Rowell has succesfully put toghether a team that will compete for the 8th seed and be fun and exciting since we got Nellie.
Ellis to the rim.
by warriorsscore110 on
Nov 19, 2008 11:42 AM PST
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Completely unfair
I guess all the other young teams in the NBA by your standards should quit on their youth, and pull a Boston and buy players and win the Championship. IM not sure where you’re getting at, but if you are going to say something like that, you better back it up with a better plan.
The Warriors without their main star are 8th seed right now and have lost 3 – 5 games by 5 pts or less.
I dont know what coolade you are sippin’ but Championships aren’t an overnight fix, and you can’t just trade trade trade, or sign sign sign, players have to WANT to come here as well. Its also the most inefficient way to build a team. See Dallas and Houston ( hows that worked out so far? )
You never know what can happen given the time. WHo knew Anthony Morrow would be a stud? Who knew Andris would improve even more from last year? Its funny when you give a team time together what happens.
If you look at most ( with exception of Boston who bought a Championship ), they all have been together for atleast 2 years.
The reason why the Warriors dont compete is because they trade away the young pieces. This time they are trying to keep things together, and you’re still complaining?
Anyone can complain, but atleast have a reason, and not a generalization.
Don Nelson is not a gimmic coach, that is an insult to this forum and the NBA. Just because you havent won a championship doesnt make you a worthless coach, not everybody is lucky enough to have everything work in their favor.
Start complaining about more valid things rather then things that are completely irrelevant. Rowell is not destroying the team, he is keeping it together.
Oh and someone once told me, never say never and I think it was good advice.
So selling Biedrins, Maggette, Jackson and Ellis short is foolish and just uneducated. You’re acting like New Orleans is soooooo loaded and same with Utah. They started somewhere, kept the team together now look at them ( yes even signing old vets ).
Watch more basketball before you post.
Thank you.
by sjboy on
Nov 20, 2008 1:02 PM PST
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Don Nelson is not a gimmic coach, that is an insult to this forum and the NBA. Just because you havent won a championship doesnt make you a worthless coach,
Gimmick doesn’t mean wotrthless. Nelson certainly is gimmicky and yes never winning a championship doesn’t make him worthless, just worth less to the results than if he had a few rings.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Nov 20, 2008 2:14 PM PST
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Cant argue with the worth less
But I would call it ‘version’ rather then a ‘gimmick’. He is certainly not trying to “look good” its just the way he believes basketball should be played. It hasnt resulted in a Championship, but then again he has never coached hardcore GREAT teams.
Larry Brown’s “the right way” coaching was considered weak up untill he won a championship. I’d rather shove needles in my eyeballs before I say scoring 30 pts in 1 half is good basketball.
by sjboy on
Nov 20, 2008 3:43 PM PST
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championships,
I would say Dallas and Houston were succesful. When I say championship contender , I mean I would like to have a team that can compete for a championship, theres a big difference. At the moment, I would say these are the teams that have a legitiment shot at winning the championship:
Boston
Detroit
LA Lakers
Utah
New Orleans
Houston
San Antonio
One day I would like to make a list like that and add GS Warriors to it, it doesnt even matter if they win the championship, its about being competetive for one. And I dont think thats Robert ROwell’s goals, judging by his actions. We got no cap room, because it is tied up in 2 above average players and has a coach that is not known for developing youth.
Ellis to the rim.
by warriorsscore110 on
Nov 20, 2008 4:20 PM PST
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How bout Cleveland?
“At the moment, I would say these are the teams that have a legitiment shot at winning the championship:
Boston
Detroit
LA Lakers
Utah
New Orleans
Houston
San Antonio”
I’d take off Houston and SanAntonio and add the Cavs and Orlando .
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Nov 20, 2008 9:28 PM PST
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Wow,
how do I miss Cleveland.
definetly add them, possibly grudgingly add Orlando, but I wouldnt take off Houston and San Antonio.
So that gives us 9 teams out of 30, that can seriously compete for a shot at the title. Idont need JAE to tell me that is nearly 1/3. When was the last time the Warriors were in that conversation?(thats a serious question, ive been a die hard since the 90’s) And with Rowell’s goal of medocrity with attendence its not happening any time soon…
Ellis to the rim.
by warriorsscore110 on
Nov 20, 2008 11:47 PM PST
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When was the last time the Warriors were in that conversation?
From the 2007 playoffs showing till the day we dumped JRich. A short positive time in recent Warriors history!
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Nov 21, 2008 10:28 AM PST
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How can you say Houston was successful?
The Warriors have won more playoff series.
Dont believe the hype, check the facts. This is what Im trying to tell you. San Antonio is busted up right now, and New Orleans is struggling alot more now that people have film on them.
Im trying to take your posts seriously, but you’re making it to easy to pick you apart.
by sjboy on
Nov 21, 2008 10:35 AM PST
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Well...
you dont mind locking up someone for 66 million dollars WHO MIGHT NOT EVEN PLAY HALF AS GOOD as he did before?
Everybody here is assuming that if Amare can come back from microfracture surgery, Monta can come back from just a little ankle injury. That, and the whole “double-jeapordy” thing.
I hear you that we’re in a better situation than we’ve been in years, but people still have the right to ask for a good team with good ownership.
Yeah, so we’re on top of the trash heap (lottery teams) instead off the bottom. Great. We still need to move back into the house (the playoffs) to get away from the stench. It’s ok to be happy that things are better than before, but they still kinda suck. Are you really content with rooting for a team that sucks, but isn’t the worst team in the league? Are you really content rooting for a team that could very easily throw your favorite player under the bus next week?
As for 1 dumb move, how about pissing off your future star, Monta Ellis, by threatening him with a voided contract. Monta & his agent are pissed off. It’s not a prediction that people remember the way they’ve been treated in future negotiations. One way or another, the Warriors will have negotiations with Monta & his agent in the future, and Rowell has certainly burned some bridges already. Rowell clearly has the option to void the contract, but he didn’t have to be an ass about it when he was still three months away from even being able to make a decision about it. Nobody has any idea whether Monta will come back alright, yet we all know that Rowell has threatened to void his contract already. He should have kept that to himself and played nice until things went sour. Threatening people and flexing you muscles does nothing to alter the eventual outcome, it only pisses off the people you’re threatening.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 19, 2008 8:46 AM PST
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My fingers are falling off from telling you guys, the team is in the best shape it has been in YEARS.
oh wise sage! let us bow to your mighty fingers!
the stop calling him "beans" movement
by pervisNeverNervous on
Nov 19, 2008 10:00 AM PST
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"son"
ok, boy
the stop calling him "beans" movement
by pervisNeverNervous on
Nov 19, 2008 12:04 PM PST
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Wow!
“the team is in the best shape it has been in YEARS”
here are several reasons why it isnt.
-Our best player has cast on his leg due to injury via moped.
-That same player has been embarassed by the orginization and isobviosly not happy with the treatment
-Our executive vice president of basketball operations(who happens to be a franchise legend) is getting humilated and being shoved out the back door by the ‘voice of the owner’
-Jackson, Maggette, Beidrins not exactly on par with any other big three in the league
-Our coach who hates developing and playing young guys, was given both an extension and the youngest roster in the leauge
-If we make the playoffs this year, it will be amazing and then we will promptly get our heads beaten in by either New Orleans or LA Lakers
not exactly the place where you want your franchise, after rebuilding for the last 15 years(1 playoff apearance in the leauge where more than half the teams make the playoffs)
Ellis to the rim.
by warriorsscore110 on
Nov 19, 2008 12:27 PM PST
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you're just not on my level
I would try to explain to you but you would just run back to your Xbox and argue with me that Boston ( a team full of hall of famers ) is ranked higher still then the Warriors ( a team rebuilding ).
Good analogy with the big 3. You’re a GENIUS!!!
by sjboy on
Nov 20, 2008 1:05 PM PST
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I dont own a XBox
Your not listening to a word I say. Im not poroposing to trade everyone and go championship or bust, what I am against is tying up our cap room to 2 above average players, and having a coach that doesnt develop our youth and aileinating our best player. I want a direction from the franchise that points to builing a winner, I see the Wariors comiting themselves to being mediocre, and having a coach that makes this team entertaining.
Your not listening to a word I say. I am not sure what level I’m own but I am fairly sure you are a few levels lower.
Ellis to the rim.
by warriorsscore110 on
Nov 20, 2008 4:25 PM PST
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OK fine
Who do we trade for?
Give me a plan, not an idea. Play GM. When you come back with no plan ( which you will ) then you will see what I see, and that rebuilding with youth, the right way, is the only way to go.
There are only so many markets that can afford to buy up talent, Golden State is not one of them. Plus as a fan honestly I would hate that. I want someone who was raised in our system, not some transplant all-star who would come for 3 – 4 years. Thats weak.
by sjboy on
Nov 21, 2008 10:38 AM PST
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great analysis jae
it will be interesting to see how long it actually takes for the wheels to start falling off. rowell is going to run this team into the ground. whats kind of interesting to me is the relationship between nellie and mully may not be as strong i thought it would be.
be the change you wish to see in the world.
by Rach on
Nov 19, 2008 8:56 AM PST
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JAE,
great post and great read. After Baron Davis opted out, I was all for keeping our options open for 2010. It was really exciting that we had been given this oppurtunity to develop our really young talent(Wright, Randolph, Watson, and at the time Bellineli and Hendrix) and continue to develop our younger semi proven talent(Azibuike, Ellis, Biedrins) and we would have 2 solid veterans to keep us afloat till we get to 2010 in Jackson and Harrington.
What I was hoping the team would do was, keep both Jackson and Harrington and just let thier contracts expire, sign Azibuike, Ellis and Biedrins with contracts that escalate downward, and sign or trade for a decent role player for a reasonable amount of cash to give Nellie atleast another semi veteran player to trust. I was thinking flipping a draft pick and cash for Hakim Warrick(who is out of favor in Memphis) or signing Josh Chilldress for 3 years 22 million(Maybe Atlanta would of matched, maybe not, but I think Childress would take that type of cash to come back to the Bay Area).
We all saw what happened, Mullin or Rowell(not sure who) offers Arenas a longer and more hefty contract than they did for Baron Davis(huh?!?) than proceed to outbid themselves for Corey Maggete. Maggette who was fielding MLE’s from championship caliber teams, would of probaly had to be over paid to come to the Bay, but 5 years 48 million seemed a bit steep. The Ellis(keep in mind this is pre-moped), Biedrins, and Azibuike all sign proceed to sign pretty decent contracts. And also a decent signing of Ronny Turiaf, who is a solid big man, and from all acounts a great guy and great energy guy. So besides the Maggete over paying, not a bad offseason, but the Maggete signing severly hindered us for 2010.
So what does this all mean, with the Jackson extension? I firmly bellieve that Robert Rowell is dead set on keeping our team moderately competetive, knowing that he has the luxary(unlike the NFL and MLB) of being the only NBA team in the Bay Area. He knows as long as we can keep on competeting for the 8th spot, the Warriors fans will keep on shilling out our money to this orginization. Signing Maggette and Jackson, destroys our hope for Stoudemire or Bosh(however slim they were) in 2010. While both of them our solid players, THEY WILL NEVER LEAD US TO THE PROMISE LAND. Additionaly Nellie is extended. Great coach, all Warrior fan love him, and he makes the team exciting to watch. However he is completely the wrong guy to develop the young guys. It was purely a public relations and political move. Example Brandan Wright gets 9 minutes yesterday.
While I’m excited about our young team, and love Stephan Jackson, not sure ‘doomed’ is the right word but I am very prepared for several years of mediocrity. 8th seed or bust for the next 3 years at the very least and possibly as long as RR is running(ruining) the Warriors.
Ellis to the rim.
by warriorsscore110 on
Nov 19, 2008 9:14 AM PST
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i mean we never had a real shot at any of those superstar free agents really. So i agree w/ trying to draft talent and ride it out w/ them. Monte, Biedrins, Wright, Randolph…. there is potential here…
maggette is also a peice that will be easily tradeable to a contender should a young guy emerge and his contract be too much
by Warriors510 on
Nov 19, 2008 10:56 AM PST
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Maybe not James, Bosh, Stoudemire, or Wade,
but why not sign a Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, or Manu Ginobli. Sure they are not all stars, but if Wright, Ellis, Randolph, Biedrins, Azibuike, and now Morrow can develop, maybe a fading star would be the missing piece to get us to the promise land. Any way its water under the bridge at this point.
Ellis to the rim.
by warriorsscore110 on
Nov 19, 2008 11:46 AM PST
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All 3 of the others
are all-stars. Did you mean to say they are not Superstars? (PP is retiring as a Celtic)
"Get Er Dun!"
by YayArea510 on
Nov 20, 2008 2:27 PM PST
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projecting them 3 years from now, and
yes i should of said superstar
Ellis to the rim.
by warriorsscore110 on
Nov 20, 2008 4:26 PM PST
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Doomed, Doomed Please, I am not sure that you understand what is going on behind the scenes
Jack is here, He has shown that he is a face of the franchise, team leader, cheerleader, locker room presence, etc., I am not saying I believe it was the best move, but I do believe it was the right move, The Monta thing will be over in a month or so, everyone will let that go, but Jax extension gives a stability on the team, near and long term, who was here and playing 4 years ago? Jax has credibility throughout NBA, and will help if we have the option to land a 2nd tier star, JAX HAS SOMETHING INTANGIBLE, HE ADDS TO THE TEAM WHEN HE IS ON THE COURT AND IN THE LOCKER ROOM…PERIOD…Proven… What is that worth?
by warriorbum on
Nov 19, 2008 10:48 AM PST
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Rowell is Changing Rudders
Rowell has more confidence in the future of this franchise under Don Nelson than anyone else. It’ s pretty obvious that with Rowell placing Nelson’s right hand man in the back pocket of Mullin, that any suggestions or actions from Mullin will be monitored closely as lonh as he remains in Oakland.
The long term security that Rowell envisions is Nelson taking over Mullin’ s position in at the end of his coaching contract and moving Smart to the head coaching post. Does that mean that Mullin sticks around? Possibly. This all depends upon how their relationship continues. It’s obvious to all that Rowell not Mullin is in charge of Chris Cohan’s money. So how this ship is steered, ultimately, is based upon the on going confidence Rowell shows in Don Nelson. It would be a shame if Mullin lost his job due to some questionably subversive tactics of his former coach.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
by Gerard on
Nov 19, 2008 2:26 PM PST
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Point Blank,
Robert Rowell is an idiot. He is nothing to this franchise and as a seaon ticket holder I will bail if he continues in his boneheaded ways. Mullin is THE REAL DEAL!! There have not been too many mistakes under his watch, plus, he’s the face of the franchise.
Forget Rowell or I’m gone as a season ticket holder. Keep Mully!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Hayward's Finest on
Nov 19, 2008 6:56 PM PST
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If Rowell was an idiot
He would never have been in any position to have control over a multi-million dollar organization. His skills and knowledge may not apply to the realm of “Basketball team GM” very well, but I’m sure he’s far from an idiot. Oh, wait… if that were true we wouldn’t have an idiot in the white house (current white house people)… scratch those comments.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 6:58 AM PST
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Ok let me rephrase...
Rowell is a basketball idiot. If he gets rid of Mully it will set us back.
by Hayward's Finest on
Nov 20, 2008 4:01 PM PST
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Gary St Jean/Dave Twarzdzik anyone?
Mull has done real well and I’m enjoying the fruits of his Labor. Who the hell is Rowell besides Cohan’s puppet anyway? When Monta returns this franchise will do even better…thanks to Mully not Rowell!!!
by Hayward's Finest on
Nov 19, 2008 7:00 PM PST
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CURRENTLY BARFING
Gary St Jean/Dave Twarzdzik anyone?
reading those two names almost put me n the pre-nellie deppression!
something i dont want ANY sports fan from any team EVER to feel
by skeetdanut on
Nov 20, 2008 12:16 PM PST
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how bout this little win streak we are on
damn morrow is good!!!!
by Agent Zero on
Nov 19, 2008 10:49 PM PST
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Sorry just dont agree.
Well thought out and crafted thread, but I simply dont agree that we are in as bad a shape as is being painted.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on
Nov 20, 2008 12:12 AM PST
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What are your reasons for disagreeing with jae's point?
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 8:48 AM PST
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? U gotta be a damn fool to NOT see wat CAPT. JACK has been to us
OPENING NIGHT 2007 VS UTAH JAZZ
baron davis
monta ellis
michael “pepe lepew” petrius
al harrington
andris beidrin
* stephen jackson suspended 1st 7 games
RECORD 1-6
CAPT. JACK RETURNS TO STARTING LINEUP
next 10 games
Record 9-1
finish season with 48 wins
OPENING NIGHT 2008 ROSTER
Demarcus Nelson
Stephen Jackson
al harrington
corey maggete
AB
Record 5-6
NO B DIDDY
NO MONTA
JUST JAX
EVEN STEVIE WONDER COULD SEE THE DIFFERENCE WHEN HE IS N THE LINE-UP
by skeetdanut on
Nov 20, 2008 11:11 AM PST
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I attribute the improvment more to Demarcus Nelson...
But maybe that’s just me. Now, if you have actual reasoning behind your opinion, I’d love to hear it. But just stating that Jax was in the starting line up this year and not last year, so things must be different does not make it true. Other things have changed too. Maybe getting rid of BD is the key to the early season improvement.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 11:25 AM PST
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Other factors
- Magette’s scoring
- Andris’s substantial improvement scoring and rebounding and reducing his foul frequency
- Azibuike’s improvement into a consistant scorer and legitimate 6th man
- C.J. Watson’s improvement
- Brandon Wright’s improvement (although the saga continues).
- A legitimate back up center that can block shots and defend big men in Turiaf
- Anthony, F’ing, Morrow
When you factor in all of those things you can easily conclude the following:
? U gotta be a damn fool to NOT see wat CAPT. JACK has been to us
EVEN STEVIE WONDER COULD SEE THE DIFFERENCE WHEN HE IS N THE LINE-UP
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 11:53 AM PST
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andris’s improvement scoring and rebounding (and he has developed a sweet touch with the ball)
AGREE
cj watson improved
AGREE
Back up center that contributes
AGREE
ANTHONY F’ing, MORROW
HELLA AGREE!
I DISAGREE with the buike part because buike was a legitimate 6 man last yr…he has improved his ball handling but his shot selection isnt nearly as smart as it was…i hope he keeps a level head and dont go petrius on us thinkin he spose ta be lebron somewhere else…Brandon wright has improved but he hasnt made a impact like ANTHONY F’ING MORROW…he’ll continue to get better but thats not reason for our uprising….
the verdict is still out on maggete.. although his stat line show a solid scorer and contributor, im not sure he’s found chemistry with his new found teammates yet. It seems like when the warriors are beginning there scoring spurts…he draws a foul and throws our tempo off….
other than that
ANTHIONY F’ING MORROW !!!!!!!!
by skeetdanut on
Nov 20, 2008 12:10 PM PST
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BUT STEPHEN JACKSON IS THE REASON WHY WE HAVENT FALLIN OFF WITHOUT B DIDDY AND ELLIS….THEY JUST PUT THE HEART IN A NEW BODY…THE WARIORS JUS HAD A TRANSPLANT THATS ALL
by skeetdanut on
Nov 20, 2008 12:12 PM PST
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Agree on Jackson being the heart and balls of the Warriors
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 12:26 PM PST
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Allcaps typing does not improve an argument.
by jae on
Nov 20, 2008 12:47 PM PST
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YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
It does improve the probability that more people will read his comments than the others.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 12:51 PM PST
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valid.
INVALID!!!!!
(which one did you read? The bold or the ALLCAPS!)
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 12:51 PM PST
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both
BOTH
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 20, 2008 12:52 PM PST
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MAYBE SO BUT ITS MORE FUN!!!! YAAYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 12:51 PM PST
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You forgot the most important thing
We’ve played lots of crappy teams. And still lost to a few of them! The win against the Blazers was nice though.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 12:37 PM PST
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Hi
Can we clone you please? Thank you for some FACTUAL input. Refreshing…
by sjboy on
Nov 20, 2008 3:47 PM PST
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Cloned
JACKSON IS SUPER AWESOME!!!!
by skeetdonut on
Nov 20, 2008 8:21 PM PST
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It's fine to Extend Captain Jack
but not for that long and for that much.
Also Rowell has to stop ripping us off and Mullin has to stay
I will always be your fan JRich. Good Luck
by chili01 on
Nov 20, 2008 11:16 AM PST
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at least we kno if jax rips us off rowell will take his money back and give it to somebody who desrves it….and rite now thats jax..
by skeetdanut on
Nov 20, 2008 11:27 AM PST
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I attribute the improvment more to Demarcus Nelson...
I like demarcus alot…watched him grow up out here n the bay area and think he’s gonna be a solid gaurd in the league ……
But he’s been in the D league the past several games and only started to create matchup problems and because williams and watson were defensive liablities..
he only started two games while nellie was experimenting with different lineups due to al harrington n monta ellis absence….
ha aint made too much of a diffence tho
by skeetdanut on
Nov 20, 2008 11:37 AM PST
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I'll explain it without sarcasm this time...
Saying “we went 1-6 without Stephen Jackson last year and 5-6 with Stephen Jackson this year” and ignoring the other differences between last year and this allows for bad logical conclusions. Your analysis had not ruled out that Demarcus Nelson is the cause of the change (your most recent analysis does so). Currently, your has not ruled out that getting rid of BD or adding Maggette is the cause of the change. Neither have you taken into account any number of other factors (our easy schedule, Anthony Morrow, Monta being out of the lineup, etc.).
Please provide further analysis to support your claim that the majority of the credit for the 1-6 to 5-6 improvement can be laid at Stephen Jackson’s feet.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Nov 20, 2008 12:44 PM PST
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Correlation does not always mean causation. One fear I have is that people over-value Jax because of the perceived sharp before/after division with him last season. It’s possible he was the key difference, that the team really was going to be a 70 loss team without him. It’s also possible that they had their bad stretch (something many teams have) in the first handful of games and it was a group turnaround, not an isolated variable, that changed.
Did Jax influence things last year? Yeah. But were they going to remain 1-6 bad without him? I doubt it. I doubt it because he’d never demonstrated that he was that valuable, that critically valuable to anyone before. I doubt it also because they went from 6 straight losses to a dominating win before he came back. The early schedule last season was rough. 2 against Utah, a team that showed it was better than us the year before. A game against Cleveland, a team that made the finals the year before and close losses to the Mavs and Detroit, two perennial playoff squads of late. Those were winnable games, but no gimmees. The only loss that stung, that really looked like the team stunk was the loss to the Clippers a close loss that they avenged with a firing on all cylinders win before Jax came back. Cause of that one? Twarnt Jax. I’m not doubting that he was a part of the team that played really well, and that they might have squeezed a win or two out of those first 6 games otherwise, but it’s not a given that he was the sole difference.
Sometimes teams just have flat spells and it’s not the personnel that affects it. Also case in point: Houston, a team that finished ahead of us last year opened the season 6-1 and then lost 6 straight. After 13 games, they had an identical 6-7 record to ours, also with a 6 game losing streak. They just swapped the order around. No clear reason for their split though. No clear personnel difference. They just won some games and then lost some. It happens. It’s called chance, and it’s a mistake to discount it as a possible significant factor other than Jax in the “turnaround” last season.
by jae on
Nov 20, 2008 1:09 PM PST
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YOURE RONG!!!
JACKSON IS AWESOME!!!
by skeetdonut on
Nov 20, 2008 8:22 PM PST
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Jax is good but
Ur right it is an organization as a whole thats been the difference….
by skeetdanut on
Nov 21, 2008 7:34 AM PST
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A trio of GSoM Golden Classics...



OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on
Nov 21, 2008 6:26 PM PST
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Very Nice! Cuz . . . Life moves fast!
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on
Nov 21, 2008 8:24 PM PST
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Good Stuff!
I miss webpins. So much creativity from the community that doesn’t get shown off as much now. Oh, the good ol’ days.
"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy
by olympicmike on
Nov 22, 2008 12:53 PM PST
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rowell/cohan
What exactly does EBMUD put in the water? Why are we cursed with the worst collection of owners in any multisport city? (Go on, see if you can come up with one that is worse). For a brief moment, it seemed as if serial litigator Cohan was going to back off and let someone with a clue run the franchise. Mullie has done well, not great, but at least he does possess that clue.
It cannot work with mulitple masters. Rowell seems bent on embarrassing his employee in pubic. The Baron thing was fun for a bit, but we have thudded back into the dark ages of Jason Caffey and Todd Fuller. Yikes.
by felix botticelli on
Nov 29, 2008 9:45 AM PST
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