Violet Palmer- WORST NBA REF

by celicadriven27 on Feb 10, 2008 12:20 PM PST Comment 47 comments

I was at the game last night and I noticed just how bad Violet Palmer is a ref. She makes way too many questionable calls against the Warriors. I noticed the same things at the Minnesota game. She can't distinguish a block and a charge. She is way to inconsistent and doesn't seem like she knows what she is doing. Anybody else noticing this? Wonder why the league doesn't get on her for such bad officiating.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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two

words.. black woman.

she must fill some sort of quota. Thats why shes the only woman ref you see.

by saintdee on Feb 10, 2008 12:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

hmmm....

i know your not being racist but could you please elaborate? because i feel like agreeing with you but.... help me understand.

win or lose... playoffs or lottery... i gotta luv them dubz! GSW 4 Life!!!

by gogomaplata on Feb 10, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

two

words.. ignorant nonsense

by Atma Brother ONE on Feb 10, 2008 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

do you see

any other woman ref in the NBA? Is there a reason why she is the only one? hmm? of all the women in the world you're telling me only violet palmer can ref a game?

you can't expect me to believe that the nba isn't using violet to fill a quota.

by saintdee on Feb 10, 2008 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Honestly

Are you really serious that the NBA is using a quota? Or are you just trying to argue with people just to argue?

Come on man. Get it together. There is no quota. Give me a break. Dont you think that if there was a quota, and that was the only reason that Palmer was around, that there would be an even greater outrage?

Your argument is incredibly flawed, backed by no facts what so ever. Please dont make unqualified accusations.

My pictures never show up here, so this is my new Signature

by sloth11 on Feb 10, 2008 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You want facts?

Look up the name..
Sandra Ortiz Del Valle

she sued the NBA over gender discrimination because she wanted to be a NBA ref but was denied repeatedly even though she was evaluated and deemed very much capable. What does the NBA do right AFTER she filed her lawsuit and right BEFORE the trial begins? The NBA hires two women refs Violet Palmer and Dee Kantner. Are you seriously telling me that this is all just coincidence? That hiring Violet and Dee wasn't a move to alleviate all the bad press?

Fast forward 9 years later. We're down to 1 woman ref. It just happens to be a black woman. Is violet a bad ref? I can't say. I am not a expert on the rules. But her gender definitely plays a part in why she got the job and why she is so safe in her job.

p.s
I don't hate woman. I love woman( i love my mom and my sister). I am not racist. I am a minority too(if you count asians as minorities in the bay area)
http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/sports/sports_law/makethecall/summer99/ortiz/index.html

by saintdee on Feb 10, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe you're right...

...and maybe you're not. You're still very clearly dealing in your own conjecture, not "facts."

It's one thing to have personal suspicions, and quite another to voice them as fact on a public message board. If you're going to play the double race/gender card, you best have a lot more to go on then some weak suspicions and a lame comparison from nine years ago. As it is, you're just needlessly stirring up sh*t.

by Sleepy Freud on Feb 10, 2008 5:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

when i said fact.

i was talking about the case. That really happened. No going around that.

Speculation was the after parts where i said "are you seriously telling me". I did not say any of my opinions were facts. Those are purely my opinions on the matter. Its up to you to agree or disagree. If I didn't make that clear I apologize. If anyone is offended by my speculations I also apologize.

by saintdee on Feb 10, 2008 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hm

Methinks it should have been pretty clear when you said Palmer "was hired because she's a black woman" that you might offend a few people. Maybe among your group of friends that kind of statement flies, but on a mainstream blog like this, you might consider biting your tongue, at least without a little more supporting evidence.

by Sleepy Freud on Feb 10, 2008 6:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

where did

that quote come from? for some reason I can't find it in my posts. Or are you saying I implied it? Well then you'd be partially right I guess. I am implying that Violet gets more leeway in her coaching because she is a black woman and that she is pretty much untouchable due to the fact that the NBA has to keep her around to avoid other potential lawsuits from happening. The NBA already lost one and I don't think they plan on losing another for the same reason

And I have no idea what you are trying to imply about me and my friends? That we hate woman? That we don't think woman are equal to men? That we don't believe in diversity? That we believe that there is a gender bias?

Supporting evidence? You don't think a whole court case on the exact issue of woman and reffing in the NBA is enough for me to make a conjecture?

by saintdee on Feb 10, 2008 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

bla

i said coaching instead of reffing.

by saintdee on Feb 10, 2008 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Come on man

The original poster asked why she wasnt taking fire from the nba for poor officiating. your response was "two words. Black Woman".

That isnt really implying it. That is pretty much a statement if i have ever seen one. And you really think if she sucked so bad, they would keep her on just to keep a woman as a ref? I'm just curious as to why you think that. If someone is doing such a poor job, then they would fire her, regardless of race or gender. They could then back it up with tons of evidence of her poor officiating and bad judgement as the reason for her firing. There is no getting around that. She would have no argument.

If there were a quota, there would be an incredible amount of controversy and bad press for the nba. If word got out that she was kept around because she was a woman and they didnt want bad press, they would get the exact opposite of what they were trying to achieve.

My pictures never show up here, so this is my new Signature

by sloth11 on Feb 10, 2008 7:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Your first reply in the thread:

two words.. black woman.

she must fill some sort of quota

Hm, now how on earth could I take that to mean that she was hired because she was a black woman?

On my end: I wasn't really trying to imply anything about you and your friends specifically, just saying that the threshold for racist/sexist/homophobic comments among small groups of friends tends to be a lot lower than in public forums like this one. Lord knows I dropped my share of politically incorrect terms and jokes in my youth that I wouldn't repeat in mixed company.

I just don't think this is the appropriate forum for racially-loaded conjecture. I mean, yeah, it's a free country, you can say what you want, but you shouldn't be surprised when people take a comment like yours, with almost no elaboration, a little badly.

by Sleepy Freud on Feb 10, 2008 7:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Because

the topic of the dairy is why the league doesn't "get on her" for the officiating. I gave my response. I said she must fill some sort of quota which when everyone asked me for some sort of evidence I produced one and made a plausible conjecture about why Violet and Dee was hired.

I don't understand why you guys find it so inconceivable that there are hirings based on gender and sex to fill quotas in the workplace. I can't be the only one who believes we live in a discriminatory world?

But I guess I'll let this topic go since I am either way out of line and makes no sense or some of you don't understand what I am saying.

by saintdee on Feb 10, 2008 7:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i dont think its about...

what a person finds inconceivable...Sleepy said it best, you gotta bite your tongue sometimes. I for one was surprised you would put something out like that in this blog. Just the way how you entered "Two words...black woman" was very ignorant.

by ON THE RUN on Feb 10, 2008 8:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Come on

You did not produce any evidence. This one article does not say that they hired those two women because of a quota. He is saying its odd how they got hired after this other woman could not get a job to be a ref. And you said it yourself, you made a conjecture, which is basically saying you decided to come to a conclusion, knowing full well that there is not enough evidence to make a final statement.

And yes, Sleepy said it best. The way you came about on this topic was not clearly thought out. And then the fact that you started to make insinuations about us talking about what you and your friends believed in was immature, when we were all trying to say that the way you came with your thoughts was wrong. There are some subjects that yes, most people dont care about, but can still be a sensitive subject. You obviously touched on one of those.

My pictures never show up here, so this is my new Signature

by sloth11 on Feb 10, 2008 8:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i wasn't going to respond.

but since now you are attacking me personally and calling me immature I have to respond.

I was in no way even attacking you. I didn't even respond to you. I was talking to sleepy not you. You didn't make any opinions about my friend so why would I respond to you? I responded to sleepy because I was just wondering what sleepy was implying by saying I offended people and then following it up with saying that "Maybe among your group of friends that kind of statement flies." I asked for clarification. And once sleepy told me what he meant I didn't pursue the issue further because I now understood what he was saying. I don't see how that constitutes me being "immature."

And also I did not say that my opinion was fact. They are in fact my opinions formed from my views from what I have seen and read. I can believe in my opinion till someone can present a convincing argument otherwise which I have not seen.

And finally I admit my mistake in approaching this issue with a very "abrasive" attitude about the issue without explaining my position that some(or all) might not like so once again I apologize for that if I could delete that post I would.

by saintdee on Feb 10, 2008 8:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Why

is everyone getting all bent out of shape over this? He didn't say anything offensive? Are black people and/or women offended by affirmative action or the possibility that it might exist to benefit them? I agree with saintdee that it is a possibility or even a probability that this lady is keeping her job largely because of her gender (maybe her race).

Yes, if she was truly terrible, they could fire her justly and get no flack for it, but maybe she's just good enough so that they have political reasons to keep her around. She is the last female referee in the NBA; saintdee is right that if she were to get fired it would be negative press for the NBA, which already has plenty of it.

"Hold it. The Schwarzenegger Library?" - John Spartan after hearing Arnold became President, from Demolition Man

by 61st Amendment on Feb 11, 2008 12:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

bad official indeed

I'm watching the game again right now. At 1:31 left in the 2nd, she called a blocking foul on Jax when Artest did a FADEAWAY jumper. Jax was right in front of him moving laterally. A blocking foul?! such BS

art by jnazaire 07

by disguy on Feb 10, 2008 12:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I don't necessarily disagree that she is a bad ref

but Jax fouled him there. Artest went into his shooting motion to his right and Jax moved left and cut him off after Artest had already started his shooting motion.

It's almost like the Warriors have 6 guys out there... they always have a guy open! - Jon Barry commentating game 3 last year

by gsw4life on Feb 11, 2008 12:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus

she over-exaggerates every call. It was almost like she was rubbing it in the dubs face when she would make a call against them by violently flailing her arms.

[IMG]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/charris102/nelliebud.jpg[/IMG] Nellie For President

by charris on Feb 10, 2008 1:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

she's teamed up with dick bavetta

both of those refs like to over exaggerate the calls.

by nautica on Feb 10, 2008 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

watch..

Watch the game on comcast or something...its not anything to do with race or gender. No where in the post do I mention either. She just doesn't make correct calls, going to two different games where she officiated, they were both badly called.

by celicadriven27 on Feb 10, 2008 1:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

she has no judgement

baron diving for a loose ball with .7 seconds left in the half, and she gives them 2 free throws. She is horrible and everyone knows it. The blocking call on Jax with the fade away was another one, jax was keeping his distance the hole time till artest lowered his shoulder before fading away. Please, don't allow her to ref any more dubs games.

by MontaAND1 on Feb 10, 2008 1:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

that was funny

Barnett said it himself: that play was technically a foul, but since Bibby could've easily stepped over him most refs wouldn't call it. Perhaps she is too technical with her calls - another example being Baron's 6th foul which was very marginal whereas most refs would only call Baron's 6th foul on a clear foul. And being too technical might not sound bad, but in the NBA that does make you a bad ref. Veteran refs judge whether to be technical or not.

It's almost like the Warriors have 6 guys out there... they always have a guy open! - Jon Barry commentating game 3 last year

by gsw4life on Feb 11, 2008 12:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

TECHNICALLY...

Veteran refs judge whether to be technical or not.

REFS, vets or rooks, shouldn't judge anything. They should call it how they see it! I hate the fact that they assume something is a foul or not, sometimes based on whether or not the shot goes in! It's stupid!

There are rules to the game, albeit, some gray area, but still. If it's a foul, based on what a foul should be, then it's a foul!

As for this whole diary about VIOLET, I do agree that she sucks, but I know it has nothing to do w/ her being an FEMALE, AFRICAN AMERICAN REF(this is the correct "PC" term that people should be using), it just has to do w/ her sucking period! There are a bunch of MALE, CAUCASIAN and AFRICAN AMERICAN REFS that suck because they suck!

As for the whole thing about a quota...I thought they were trying to "experiment" w/ women REFS in the NBA. I don't have anything to base that on, but it's just my thoughts.

"S.C. gooooo hooooome!!!"

by scottiepimppen on Feb 11, 2008 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

At the Hornets game

She was late on so many calls because she lacked the quick decision making skills. Absolutely horrible ref.

Bring on the BD Show!!!

by dajrichshow on Feb 10, 2008 1:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

All refs have idiosyncrasies - good or bad,

that matured NBA coaches/players/teams study, understand and manipulate to get a call. Hey, if we aren't there yet, it not the ref's fault...it's ours. The refs are part of the game - defensively and offensively. Smart teams use them to their advantage!!

We need to take responsibility for not being smarter than the refs instead of blaming them.

by streetballer on Feb 10, 2008 2:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I think it's the same 1 you're talking about

I saw her last year and I couldn't believe how many bad calls she made against the Warriors.

Go Warriors!!!

by goGSW24 on Feb 10, 2008 2:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

white, black, yellow, green...man, woman, dog...et

whatever...Violet Palmer is just a HORRIBLE official period. If memory serves me correctly she was hired along with another woman (who was white by the way) only she was fired like after one season for sucking. However, V.Palmer kept her job for some reason. She is just horrible though, always has been.

Let's Go Oakland! Gas, Brake, Dip.

by OaktownFunk on Feb 10, 2008 4:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

she actually loves making bad calls

she strives for attention

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7v6qufvhJ4

by vietnameezboy on Feb 10, 2008 4:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

go to

55 secondes

by vietnameezboy on Feb 10, 2008 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

if she wants attention

she needs to find a completely different profession. refs are at they're best when they're not noticed at all

by AJC3317 on Feb 10, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

i swear every warrior game she officiates I noticed her making bad calls. When an in-particular ref stands out after a few bad calls on a consistent basis i believe its safe to say she isn't a good official. Regardless of gender

by Spidz34 on Feb 10, 2008 5:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

asdf

i just loved (well...not really) when baron fouled out and yelled at her to do her job. i believe it was nelly that was holding him back. i couldn't agree with baron more.

it's all about the fist pump.

by the noTORious TOR on Feb 10, 2008 6:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

you guys do realize

that on kings sites they're crying about how biased the officials were for the warriors and that the kings played the dubs 5 on 8. just goes to show that it's all subjective...

btw the most controversial ref last night was leroy richardson who called all the t's on the warriors and has been under fire this year.

actually the officiating in the bulls game seemed more lopsided. do you guys even remember who made the bad calls in that one (w/o looking it up)?

by the evil monkey on Feb 10, 2008 6:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

she's an idiot...

watching that youtube clip....she relishes being noticed (booed) by the fans...she was basically stating that she likes the power

...good refs should be invisible to the game allowing it to proceed as naturally as possible

by wizard5ive on Feb 10, 2008 8:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well...

Do I think Palmer is among the better refs in the league? No.

Do I think that she takes more heat among fans because she is a woman (if for no other reason than it makes her easier to remember and more noticeable)? Yes, probably.

The NBA is a very difficult league to officiate to start with and overall I'd say the quality of officiating is pretty poor (easy for me to say with instant replay and my DVR). There are plenty of refs who slide by without notice while making questionable calls night after night, but the same thing that makes Palmer unique as a ref makes her a target for the fans.

I do have to say that her attitude in that interview isn't exactly confidence inspiring, but I'm sure it's not that unique among refs. There are plenty of refs who nightly give a team the home court disadvantage just to show that they can't be pushed around by a rowdy home crowd (um... think of a guy who's name starts with Craw and ends with ford).

Basically, the more you pay attention to what an official is doing the more frustrated you get. We can't do anything about what we perceive as bad officiating, coaches and players can't even mention it in the media without being fined, and we have no way of knowing which officials are being reprimanded by the league and for what. You will probably be a happier NBA fan if you just try to ignore them.

Now I would welcome a more transparent, public disciplinary system for refs but it's not going to happen and I'm not sure it would be a good thing for the league anyway.

. WERD

by olympicmike on Feb 10, 2008 8:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

It's not just the Warriors

My good friend (76ers fan) that watches a lot of NBA on league pass with me has been saying for weeks that she is the worst ref in the NBA. I kept jokingly telling him that he was racist and sexist but he insisted that she was terrible. Probably too much to be a coincidence...

It's almost like the Warriors have 6 guys out there... they always have a guy open! - Jon Barry commentating game 3 last year

by gsw4life on Feb 11, 2008 12:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

kings fans complaining...

Of course they are going to complain, because the kings lost. I don't know how they could say it was lopsided. Were they watching the same game as everybody else? Barnes gets smacked in the mouth, that wasn't a foul, Barnes taps a player on the arm, its a foul? Just an example. Overall a bad officiated game, but can't say it was lopsided. I started this thread to see if people agreed with me. But all the sexist and racist comments need to stop. Its not about that, its about doing the job right. And she is not doing her job right. The person who made the comments about being smarter than the ref, how can they be? She changed her definition of a foul by the possession. League should do something, atleast sit her down, go over tapes.

by celicadriven27 on Feb 11, 2008 2:01 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

The only reason we think she's bad

Is because we remember her. I've seen her make bad calls and have overall bad games, but lots of refs have bad nights and make atrocious calls. But now, since she's the only woman ref in the league, when I see her reffing the game I think, "Here we go again..." When some random white guy makes a bad call against the Warriors, I have no idea what his name is or even what he looks like; then, if he is to ref another Warriors game, I have no recollection of his previous work. Palmer comes under more scrutiny just because she stands out. I don't think she's a good ref, but I don't want to either condemn or excuse her behavior just because of her gender. It's just unfortunate that she stands out so much because she's the only female ref.

then we will fight in the shade.

by Swamp Thing on Feb 11, 2008 12:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

lol

this is unfortunately true. it's easy to remember her. you know what, though, she deserves it. she refereed a warriors/rockets game once, we're talking maybe 3+ years ago, made the worst call ever on a ball knocked out of bounds, ON TOP OF HER, and she still called it wrong. Horrible. Even though we were likely to stink up the season, it was early, and I like to credit her personally with destroying our season.

by GameSix on Feb 11, 2008 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Great point, Swamp

I haven't watched her enough to judge her relative abilities as a ref, but I'm pretty sure the favoritism, to the extent that exists, cuts both ways. She may well get marginally more lenient treatment from the league than the dudes, but she's also way more under the microscope than any of them (viz. this diary).

I'd guess that what she would want more than anything is no special attention from anyone, positive or negative.

by Sleepy Freud on Feb 11, 2008 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

V-Palm...forget race or gender, she just sucks

Violet Palmer not only is the worst ref in the league, it's comical. She is the one ref that has absolutely no control of the game, the only good thing about her is she's no Mike Donaghy. The fact that Ron Artest was in action during a Palmer game should have given the crowd reason to take caution -- you never know what might happen.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Artest either decked Violet or kissed her one of these days...

When I was at the Warriors/Kings game, I wrote about it. If you'd like to re-live Monta, C-Webb looking like a slug, and Stack's Ironman-esque pain threshold, I posted a little point-by-point analysis.

http://bayareasportsguy.com/2008/02/11/point-by-point-almost-the-bay-area-sports-guy-goes-to-the-war riorskings-game.aspx

Also mentioned in the post is when Dick Bavetta gave Don Nelson a pat in the rear during play. Very awkward.

by BAsportsguy on Feb 11, 2008 5:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

They're all bad refs...

Voilet is remebered because she's a woman. And every fan thinks the officiating is against their team.

Have you ever heard any fan of any team glory in how well the refs call the game for their team?

They all make bad calls.

by shadowboy on Feb 11, 2008 3:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

agree- most suck, nut just her

I would be curious to look at some stats regarding how many fouls each ref calls, what types of calls, etc

I have found stats relateed to gambling, but nothing for the person who just wants to evaluate the game. Based on Homer stats and over/unders, Violet appears to be pretty crappy though. In my opinion, when the scores of the games you officiate fluxuate more than average, or are more lopsided than average, the ref is causing problems.

Anyone know of a good ref stat website I may have missed?

Dammit Dampier!

by attatt on Feb 11, 2008 4:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs