Community Guidelines on Ad-Hominem attacks

by ohmangoAs on Mar 10, 2008 11:15 PM PDT Comment 37 comments

In my opinion, recent diaries have shown some of the ugly side of this community. The best example is the number of personal attacks on Iggy in recent diaries. He's been called a "numbskull". He's been accused of slinging BS, called a joke. He's been told to stop talking because he keeps getting shut down.

And honestly, the sad part is that most of those comments came from highly regular, respected members of this community.

This community should value attacking the argument, not the person. That's the only thing that makes this place different from an ESPN board.

I'm not sure what can be done, besides a general plea for people to explain why the other person's argument is wrong, rather than calling them out personally. I also think that regular contributors need to build that mentality by never making ad-hom arguments themselves. This is not purely an issue of moderation, but really, an issue of commitment from regular community members to help create a stigma against ad-hom arguments. The next time you hear someone insult another community member, ask them to debate the argument, not the person.

Although this issue has to be self regulated by the community, there are couple things I think we should try to do in terms of site policy/organization:

Finally, there are some institutional things that could be done to help this situation.

Have a coherent set of community guidelines, beyond the warning to not be racist, homophobic etc. Right now, most of our diary guidelines are about content quality, not guidelines.
Some sort of recommended diaries feature. This is 100% an issue of self-interest for the site. Everyone would benefit. I understand that we've been trying to get this for a while, but I think that it's gotten to the point where more needs to be done. The coding for recommended diaries has already been done, on other SB Nation sites. This is a relatively high-traffic SB Nation site...why aren't we pushing for technology to meet the demands of that traffic? Email SBNation people to let them know this matters.
Perhaps some sort of system of evaluating Community guideline violations? Beyond simplistic banning by site managers, I think there should be a procedure for bringing a comment under scrutiny and perhaps some sort of three-strikes system.

I realize that this is a tough issue, and I have no doubt that the people who run GSOM (Atma et al) are doing a lot of work. But this is an important issue, and frankly, I believe the lack of quality discussions on this site is quite possibly a product of poor structural support for good writing. I know that I'm not going to write a diary as long as it gets pushed down right away, regardless of quality. I've been reading for two years, and this is just the second diary I've written.

A lot of improvements have to come from the community itself. We need to politely ask others to not make ad-hom attacks, and we need to let SBNation know that we need a recommended diaries feature.

Poll

Did you email SBNation?

Yes

1 votes

No

14 votes

15 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Comments

Lol.

Is "a" even considered a word though? :P

"Monta is the MAN." -Bob Fitzgerald

by WarriorForLife on Mar 11, 2008 12:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

yes

it's an indefinite article.

by jam3rz on Mar 11, 2008 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

6 Words

Bring OZ back to the party

by highflya on Mar 11, 2008 12:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

IMHO

Nothing that was said to Iggy has been malicious or unacceptable. People tend to get irratated when someone posts the SAME TOPIC three times in a matter of a couple days.

This is not Sesame Street. If someone decides to post he must be ready to face criticisms. And if the poster continues to ramble on with unfounded claims, well then, its only human nature for people to get perturbed and lash out a little.

This is supposed to be a site for intelligent basketball discussion. If a topic is stricken down repeadedly by respected members of the community it should NOT be simply reposted.

Im all for diverse participation in this blog, but sometimes, like the Bull homer a while back, people must accept the fact that some opinions have no right to be respected. And im not saying this is the case for Iggy, as he seemed to attempt to back up his claims pretty well.

About moderation....theres really no need for it. Lets not turn this into that one site (forgot the name of it), where things like cursing arent allowed.

"Impossible is Nothing"

by Da City1 on Mar 11, 2008 12:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

LOL

you make me laugh again

build a team & destroy the roof

by Lat We N Trash on Mar 11, 2008 12:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, ok

Clearly, this is one where I'll be outnumbered. I'm not sure why what I'm saying is controversial (it seems like what I'm saying is analogous to the third grade lesson that calling names is not really an argument). Still, that's cool. If no-one dislikes having ESPN message-board level discussions, its cool by me.

I'll just spend more time than I already do at AthleticsNation. lol.

by ohmangoAs on Mar 11, 2008 12:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

asdf

go giants.

"TIMEOUT IN BARON'S HOUSE"

by the noTORious TOR on Mar 11, 2008 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lol

If you really cant see the difference between this blog and an ESPN message board then you need help.

"Impossible is Nothing"

by Da City1 on Mar 11, 2008 12:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

IM all for

fairness and treating people like they are wanted but come on

if anyone says anything about something he SAYS
or makes a kevin love joke he defends himself in the malicious unacceptable way
i got told i live in a dirty or crap city or something and i just defended myself so can't say it's much different for others

The Beginning of the "We Believe" Movement of Melbourne, Australia.

by DoomBizzle on Mar 11, 2008 2:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

A picture is worth four words...

by Sleepy Freud on Mar 11, 2008 2:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

lol

ooh, spicy flavor!

FIVE WORDS.

those words being (what a little spicy weenie.)

by xcoma on Mar 11, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was one...

of the people that gave Iggy some choice words. I understand that it may have been a little out of line, but I still thought someone had to do it. It seemed as though he was stirring up crap just for the sake of stirring it up, and was doing it for the personal joy of starting arguments online. In all fairness though, his posts have gotten much better and have been much more suitable for discussions since a couple nights ago.

by kinetic on Mar 11, 2008 6:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

lol

so you encourage him then kinetic? If that was the case you simply bought into what he wanted, don't try to excuse yourself like that, be humble.

by bigbenny11 on Mar 11, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't...

encourage him. I just tried to point out that he was being immature. Since then his posts have been much better. I see nothing wrong with that.

by kinetic on Mar 11, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i feel like

i was encourgaged. for the record.

by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 11, 2008 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

GSBALLERS

is doing a good thing, I said previously that too many people use this website as a training gound to sharpen their rhetorical swords, everybody wants to get a snide or witty remark off of their chest, and it reduces the atmosphere considerably. Oh and i've debated iggy in depth as much as anybody, and I think he does a good job of defending his views, no matter how wrong they are sometimes ;)

by bigbenny11 on Mar 11, 2008 9:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

thanks man

i appreciate that you engaged me. i spent 2 hours last night trying to figure out an alternative to biedrins, and....i just couldn't do it. the best i could think of was signing jermaine o'neal instead, which could potentially make the warriors more competitive for a title next year, and then again it might not. hard to justify throwing money at an injruy prone thirty year old rather than biedrins. plus o'neal sucks at rebounding. so frustrating.

and i don't think we could sign baron, monta, and brand, although maybe mullin could do it. i don't think there's enough money. he's a beast though, he'd make our team a legit contender next year, although it would mortgage our future a bit. i think the main goal should be to win while nelly's here, since he's the only coach that has turned the warriors into anything good in 20 years.

it sucks because i really believe that conceptually my arguement has merit. but there's no solution. i guess we gotta sign ab. it's too bad we can't make a move that would give a more of a chance to win next year, nelson's last. i just hope we win won in my lifetime. here's to biedrins bringing it to oakland!

didn't mean to bring this argument up again for a fourth time. i feel closure on it. fun argument, i learned something.

by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 11, 2008 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

I think as you continue to do your own research and find how few realistic options there are available as an upgrade to AB you will begin to better appreciate his value.

As far as calling you a joke goes, I hope you were able to take it in context and see what I was meaning to say. Sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference between someone who is trying to start up "internet drama" and someone who is actually looking for a constructive conversation. If I misjudged which of those you are (it appears that I may have) I apologize. It can be very frustrating when you are debating with someone only to find that their sole purpose is to get under your skin.

by olympicmike on Mar 11, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

there are in fact guidelines

its just a matter of a few folks who just refuse to abide by them. for the most part, people engage in ways that are fun and productive. i think in recent weeks, people have done a good job of self-policing themselves and letting those random folks that they're just being rude, obnoxious, and completely pointless to the thread/diary.

As far Iggy's supposed "internet drama" (which i think is completely b.s.), how is critiquing Biedrins "internet drama"? Though Iggy feels that it has made him re-think his idea (which is great in the end), why is Biedrins ABOVE criticism? Or why is critiquing Biedrins deserve being berated or called "drama"? That makes no sense to me.

People are going to love certain players for certain reasons and disagree, which is fine. There's just no room for "scolding" someone because they don't like a player you adore. Secondly, it makes absolutely no sense when you scold them and can't even muster an argument to back up your point or to engage in dialogue. Telling someone they're wacked out ... like some people on this blog ... doesn't do anything for the conversation.

by dj fuzzylogic on Mar 11, 2008 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK

So if Iggy is as reasonable as you say, how did he manage, in the span of three diaries, to get under the skin of like 95% of the community here? Especially, you know, given what sweet li'l angels the vast majority of us are?

If you honestly think all the crap he took (crap he basically begged for, and mostly seemed to enjoy) came from the opinion that AB is "ABOVE criticism," I think you need to re-read all three of his 100+ post diaries. The first and third ones are pretty unequivocal cases of his stirring up sh*t just for the sake of it. Heck, he basically admitted that's what he was up to. He contradicted himself left and right, relied on misleading and/or incorrect facts and numbers, insulted people, and responded to every thoughtful counterargument (of which there were a ton) by simply repeating himself ... over and over.

Honestly, I don't get the pity. He's clearly no babe in the woods. He knew exactly what he was doing, took his medicine, and enjoyed himself doing it. He's like the all-time most successful diarist on GSoM, hands down. No harm, no foul. Right, Iggy?

by Sleepy Freud on Mar 11, 2008 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

my bad

i didn't see the previous posts. i could see how by the 3rd time around that would totally get on people's nerves. i didn't think the comments made towards him in the final thread were even that bad, aside from two posters who consistently just criticize people without even offering any ideas of their own nor do they ever. but i doubt that's actually their point. but your right, my critique of that thread is read out of context and i should have read up first. but, it does seem that Biedrins is generally seen as "uncriticizable" as of late.. or for a while.

by dj fuzzylogic on Mar 11, 2008 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

well

I feel a little better and a little worse now that I see you didn't even read all of the diaries in question before calling me out. With all the time I've spent having civil discussions here I think I would at least be given the benefit of the doubt until you did your homework.

by olympicmike on Mar 11, 2008 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um...

I'm aware of the guidelines thank you. Judging from your comment I'm guessing that you didn't read the entirety of my discourse with Iggy or didn't fully comprehend it. The point of my original comment wasn't actually a judgement on his character but a realization that he may be egging me (and others) on for the fun of it. If you read what I originally said you would see that I said the joke was on me.

What I meant by "internet drama" is that some people show up here just to get a reaction. While there is nothing inherently wrong with this, it can be frustrating when you have spent literally an hour or more having a conversation with someone just to see that he was yanking your chain the whole time.

I never said AB was "ABOVE criticism". I did not classify Iggy's comment as "drama" because of the content of his argument but more so the ever changing flip-flopping nature of his logic (It seemed like he was just trying to be disagreeable). Again this is fine as long as it is Honest. At the time I wasn't sure if it was, but since then I have taken the time to apologize if in fact he was being sincere (which it appears he was).

Anyway, I'm not sure why you felt the need to single me out on this one but if you take the time to actually read the comments that Iggy and I have exchanged over the past few days I don't know how you could honestly make the accusations you just did (that I "scolded him without even mustering an argument to back up my point or engage in dialog"). I feel pretty good about my handling of all of the conversation. I have probably been much more careful about what I type on this blog than you just were. I do my best to engage people honestly and with respect.

Check out the threads for yourself:
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/story/2008/3/3/183748/6394

http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/story/2008/3/10/31541/1454

by olympicmike on Mar 11, 2008 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

misplaced statement

my comment wasn't necessarily directed at you and sorry if it seems that way, that wasn't the intention. i chose to insert my idea here, just becuase it was within a smaller thread within a bigger thread about how criticizing people (during the OZ era) was the means of "helping people." this isn't the case now, thank goodness, and i appreciate people's help recently in letting folks know, as irritating as it may be because why should it necessarily be your obligation, how to improve their writing or thoughts without cluttering diaries/threads/etc. i'm glad iggy is cool with it and has benefitted from others ideas and suggestions.

by dj fuzzylogic on Mar 11, 2008 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There are women posting here, too

So be a man and show some class.

by Dubmanny on Mar 11, 2008 9:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

word

Yeah, the three chicks that post around here are stronger than most of you little girls.

by xcoma on Mar 11, 2008 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

the most funny thing for me is

that your signature makes it look like SJax is telling those words himself

WERD

build a team & destroy the roof

by Lat We N Trash on Mar 11, 2008 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

ive always thought the same thing

by BD4mvp on Mar 11, 2008 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pedophile?

didn't this BD4mvp call someone a pedophile on this website?

I saw on a post he wanted to date little 16yr old boys

by goldenstatewarriors on Mar 12, 2008 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It means...

answering someone's argument with a personal attack rather than with an argument as to why their argument is wrong.

I'm sorry I offended you with that phrase lol.

by ohmangoAs on Mar 11, 2008 1:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Haha

I think/hope he was joking...

by olympicmike on Mar 11, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

me too

by ohmangoAs on Mar 11, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

EXTRA CHEESE

Oh good, the joke got deleted. Well done, admins!

by leee on Mar 12, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

o rly

there are guidelines for diary content? never woulda thought.

"We're all corrupt bastards." - Don Nelson

by GameSix on Mar 11, 2008 2:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

want OZ back?

sounds like what he did. And people were all whiny about him putting down the digital smack down. Dude was effective as hell, albeit a bit too over zealous towards the end there, but he'd always bring the heat. Smart cat. I miss him sometimes. I don't miss his superiority complex, tho.

"To my dear brother, Noompsy."