Kevin Love
not to rehash an old debate or anything, but tim kawakami wrote a really interesting article on love in his blog.
i found this paragraph particularly interesting:
for anyone who didn't read my first argument on why the warriors should draft kevin love, here's a link:
http://goldenstateofmind.com/story/2008/3/3/201911/8612
god, this really helps my arguement. i love being right.
kawakami also says in the article that most executives he's talked to projects love to go in the twenties.
so if we accept that we have a low chance of drafting a potential all-star in the low twenties, why not draft a kid who has a great chance to be a very good nba player for every reason tim and i have expressed. it would instantly be mullin's best pick as the warriors gm.
i really can't get over the fact that kawakami's on my side. it's like i'm obama, and he's bill richardson, or ted kennedy, backing me instead of you guys, the hillary clinton warriors fans. i bring hope and and change to gsom!
just kidding, i love you guys.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
0 recs |
103 comments
Comments
mullins best pick as the warriors gm?
by lowchi on Mar 22, 2008 11:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not gonna lie,
Biedrins is still better.
by belilaugh on Mar 23, 2008 12:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dead on
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2008 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry iggy
by 3Kings650 on Mar 23, 2008 12:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
kawakami
by chimp on Mar 23, 2008 1:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you should change your webpin
by lightz0ut on Mar 23, 2008 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
asdf
"TIMEOUT IN BARON'S HOUSE"
by the noTORious TOR on Mar 23, 2008 1:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
huh?
I pray i never have to use a gun again.
by ssmokinjoe on Mar 23, 2008 1:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
let's put it this way
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 2:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
quoting you:"I love being right".
I pray i never have to use a gun again.
by ssmokinjoe on Mar 23, 2008 4:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction, Iggy...
You drew the angst of most the posters here by saying that we NOT re-sign Biedrins, then draft Love. Which indirectly means trading beans for love.
Look, if love was still around by the time the dubs pick, sure, why not. That doesn't mean its a good idea to forsake AB for the guy. If he EVEN decides to leave UCLA for the draft, for the 2009 season, warriors w/ beidrins > warriors + love w/o beidrins. Even Kawakami would agree w/ me on that, if you asked him personally, rather than nip/tucking his articles to make him sound like he agrees with you.
"To my dear brother, Noompsy."
by Tim N Chris Burger on Mar 23, 2008 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're right
anyway, if we sign biedrins or not, we should still draft love regardless. if we had both, it would be better than having just love, of course. i agree with you. i just hope that we can trade biedrins when we realize that his production will never match his contract.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love looked flat out dominant

then we will fight in the shade.
by Swamp Thing on Mar 23, 2008 6:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
please
by bigbenny11 on Mar 23, 2008 8:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yes he is
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iggy, dude
You're hardly the first person to suggest that Love might be a pretty good addition to the Ws, and Kawakami is hardly the last. Plenty of people on this site think he'll be a good NBA player. His first mention on this site long predates your arrival here.
More importantly, it's hard for anyone to take you seriously when you frame every debate as "your" ideas v. everyone else's. There are some objective facts and truths beyond your simplistic "stances" -- facts and truths that you seem to have only a passing interest in. One of the many facts you ignore every time anyone brings it up: he'll probably be gone by the time we pick.
If you actually have serious ambitions to be a sports journalist (shudders) you might consider trying to analyze facts and synthesize arguments rather than just beat your chest louder than everyone else. Learning to write well, capitalize, and spell probably wouldn't hurt your chances, either.
As it is, you seem to have a promising career as the Bill O'Reilly of sports. Like BOR, you have a special knack for ignoring the facts, promoting yourself, and getting under people's skin. Rabble-rousing sells -- fairness and objectivity be damned.
Good luck, man ... and go Bruins!
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 23, 2008 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is so much fun sleepy!
could you site something that would prove that? no, because you can't predict the odds where people are going to go in the draft. you're not an expert on odds, nor are you an expert on the nba draft, although i'm sure you think you are. you need to site evidence, sir. i did, with kawakami's article. he says nba execs have him penciled in for late in the first. is that hearsay? yes, but it has high probative worth due to the strength of the witness.
you could site mock drafts, but there is no general consensus anywhere on the internet as to where love will go. some have him at 13, others much lower.
the fact of the matter is there is a chance love will be there, and if he's there, we should take him. end of story.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad you're enjoying yourself
Well, clearly -- which is why I had to remind you.
Um, the fact that you're a little egomaniacal loudmouth? A fact that just about anyone who reads your posts would corroborate?
Well, I do know a lot of architects and a few developers, but I'm not sure I have the necessary permits for siting such a thing...
Actually, I don't think I know half as much about hoops as most of the people on this site -- you included, probably. On the other hand, I do have a pretty good sense of when people are honestly trying to synthesize ideas and when they're just yanking people's chains to boost their own inflated egos. I don't think I need to remind you which you're doing.
I could, but again, I'm not sure I have the space in my one-bedroom apartment or the necessary permits.
Sorry -- Kawakami's reputation aside, you're not allowed to use big phrases like that if you can't figure out how to capitalize or how to spell "cite." Little known GSoM guideline...
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 23, 2008 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
As for the "argument" -- to the extent that you have one -- you obviously care less much about it than you do about hearing the sound of your voice and pissing people off. I'm just giving you what you want. You know you love it. ;-)
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 23, 2008 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
im willing to bet you aren't
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2008 2:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Iggy...
Ill help you out a bit. The answer is no. And why is the answer no? Because just knowing more than an average person does not make you an expert.
by sloth11 on Mar 23, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sports journalists
And Kawakami is not necessarily a draft expert because he has a job following the Warriors.
Let's be very clear what the job of a sports journalist is and what it isn't. What it is, first and foremost, is to providing something interesting to read. That often (though unfortunately, not always) means something informative, thought provoking, providing insight that wouldn't otherwise be there. Some do it better than others. The journalist presumably immerses himself in the subject matter such that he has familiarity with the sport, watches many games and is familiar in far more than passing. The journalist is often armed with tools that even the dedicated fan has in terms of access to players and management for opinions.
In the best case though, this does not make the journalist into a talent scount, a GM, or an expert witness as to what makes teams better. They make mistakes; they have holes in their knowledge; they have blinders to the type of talent that wins. They have this despite the tools they have to (presumably) make better forecasts than the average fan.
There are many (most?) writers (writers with jobs) who write about what teams should do who do not seem to have even a cursory grasp on the salary cap and write inane nonsense (clear to those of us who do understand the cap) as a result. One would think, as important as it is to the game these days, that they'd take time to learn about it. There are many writers who, like many fans, seem overly impressed with scoring averages, not terribly different than what the average fan finds exciting and erroneously puts as most important. I read more than a few pieces that suggest what would be absolutely stupid moves for a variety of reasons, much of which indicates that the writers are little more than casual fans with some gift for the written word and a whole lot more time to devote to their fan-dom and prose. I read much that indicates that many writers parrot what they've seen in print themselves. I do not read much that suggests that the majority of writers do deeper analysis of the game, that they uncover things beyond the (often wrong) conventional wisdom.
Much of this convinces me that because a writer, even a beat writer covering a team, is not an "expert" in any sense that his decisions are more likely to bring success than anyone else's. So touting Kawakami's endorsement of your opinion doesn't do much to make me think that it's sounder strategy because he said something similar.
If anyone has looked at mock draft boards over the years, they'd know that aside from the top couple or so picks, the "stock" in players can change rapidly. Where someone "projects" before the tournament, when underclassmen haven't declared yet, when we're still speculating about the content of the draft, has a rather weak correlation to where they are actually drafted. Add the movement on the mock boards when the 6-10 college center turns out to be 6-7.5, when agents for foreign prospects start playing games moving in and out their A-grade talent to make their B-grade talent look draftable, and all of a sudden we've got a situation where we, and I include every basketball journalist here with me in the "we" do not know who will be available mid 20s. We can only speculate, and I suspect that at this point in time we'd speculate wrong as often as we'd be right.
Anyone paying attention to the draft would also notice that it's more often that even late lottery picks, let alone picks in the mid 20s, are unlikely to help a team. Are there exceptions? Sure. Are we to believe that Kawakami (or any other journalist) has a better line on who these players are ahead of the fact? Love may drop to 20something and wind up being a good NBA player. Odds don't favor it though. Odds favor that he (or anyone else who is picked at this point) won't ever do much to help an NBA club win. That's important to remember. If he is available then, it doesn't mean he's going to suck, but it does mean that many people with more tools at their disposal to predict success were not impressed enough to take him earlier.
It's ridiculously fool-hearted to focus in on a single player late in the draft. It's bad strategy to covet a player who, if he's there, is there because teams with pressing needs didn't think he'd help. Big men generally have more ability to make bad teams good. Big men are coveted for this reason. Big men tend to go higher in the draft than they should. Big men who slip are especially prone to be terrible. All of this suggests that if Love slips that far, he's a project and not someone we'd really want to bank any future on. "Need" picks seldom work when you've got a good pick. With a late pick, you're at a bigger disadvantage. Drafting for need gives you a far, far lower chance of actually taking someone who can contribute. It gets you tall guys with little ability to tie their own shoes. It is poor strategy to focus in on a single player for need late in the draft. If Kawakami hasn't noticed that guards taken later in the draft have a better (albeit still low) probability of turning into successful NBA players, then his writer's credentials don't mean jack.
by jae on Mar 23, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
by pree on Mar 23, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks
The access to inside information, especially in the hands of those who can convey it clearly, is very useful and appreciated for those of us who have to get it third hand.
[And I also shouldn't expect the majority of those publishing for a nation-wide audience to know as much about our team as the dedicated fans. Still, it's frustrating to read a Pete Vescey hype rumors that are demonstrably false within the limits of the cap and make no sense for the Warriors.]
by jae on Mar 24, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the defnition of an expert witness
now, i'm going to use legal terms, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with them so i'll try to define them for you.
the definition of an expert witness is anyone who has more knowledge on the matter than the average juror. look it up. that's the definition. now, a lawyer would like to get the best expert witness possible so his credential's can't be cross examined, but he can still take the stand. you seem to be confused, i think you're arguing the probative worth of kawakami's testimony.
if the cause of action (the trial's taking place) of the trial is the determine whether love would be a good pick for the warriors in the low twenties (something a real court would never take for obvious reasons, but for the sake of this argument we can assert that.), kawakami qualifies as an expert witness due to his long history covering the nba, knowledge of players, and knowledge of the warriors.
let's take you, on the other hand. you would not be considered an expert witness. no one knows who you are. you're a fan who writes on a blog. you're opinions don't matter. if i'm a lawyer pro-love, and i call kawakami to the stand, and the anti-love lawyer calls you to the stand, i win.
unless you can explain to me why you're a better source than tim. do you have a press credential? to you talk to players, coaches, gms, or scouts? are you paid for you opinions on sports?
i take issue with this statement of yours
who are you to say what the odds are? you don't know that. you haven't spoke to nba execs, you're speculating. you're not an expert on odds. you need to show some sort of evidence to prove that love "probably" will go before twenties. kawakami's statements contradict yours, when he says most gms he's talked to have him slated for the end of the first round. that evidence has higher probative worth than your speculations.
i really like how you spend your whole post explaining why kawakami would not be an expert witness (incorrect), and you finish it with a few paragraphs of your own speculations that rest on zero evidence. i'm using evidence in my argument. you're giving your opinions like you assume you're an expert witness. yeah right.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
expertise
Your definition of expert witness is a bit abridged and the part you left out is significant. It certainly doesn't match my own experience or my own research, neither of which are insignificant. An important clause pertaining to expertise is that their knowledge beyond that which is considered common must be sufficient for others (in this case the court) to rely on their expertise.
In practice, this means that the standard is more rigorous than just knowing more than the average person. In practice it means that an expert must be properly qualified through training and must demonstrate this to the court such that this is true. At least in federal court, there is no clear defining standard as to what 'qualified means' and it's up to the court to determine the level of competency of the 'expert' and to define the limits of their testimony. And yes, "experts", even those who clearly know more than those in the jury pool, are sometimes not permitted to testify to matters because the court is not impressed that they are sufficiently qualified to do so.
I would never propose that I'd serve as an expert on sports for a court. However, this misses two important things, Iggy. The first is that this isn't a court, Iggy. It's a blog. It's up to you and anyone else reading this (and other things I've posted) to determine if they think my opinion means anything. The second is that I can demonstrate empirically what I am stating. I suspect, but do not know conclusively, that there are readers and posters here who would consider my opinions are as valid as Kawakami's, if not more valuable. Part of this is because relatively few of my 'opinions' are left mere opinions and since most of them are rather carefully explained, and backed with evidence when applicable. And readers here know this to be true. They may not agree with me, but they can't deny that I present my evidence and it's usually rather thorough. It's thorough because I do conduct my own research. I have systematically looked at player productivity. I have systematically compared draft position with success in the pros. Have I talked with players, coaches? No. Nor do I have a press credential. But I am certain that I understand statistics better than the majority of sports journalists and I am certain that I can conduct a systematic study of a system like the NBA draft better than most sports journalists and there is absolutely nothing in a conversation with a coach or player or a press credential that changes this.
You take issue with my statement that odds don't favor Love dropping into the 20s and being a productive player? I take this to mean that you think there's favorable odds that he'll be drafted there and be a good player. I'm actually flabbergasted that you can assert this. Are you capable of precognition? You know both of these things are more than likely to happen and co-occur? Seriously, why aren't you out buying the winning lottery tickets with a power like that!
Clearly, the draft 'experts' don't get things right much of the time, else there wouldn't be busts high in the draft or surprises late in the draft. This is true of the guys drafting and the guys 'rating' draftees ahead of the draft. There's not certainty, but there's still a trend. You stand a better chance of landing a star with a top 5 pick than with a pick in the bottom 5. The higher you draft, IN GENERAL the better your odds of landing a good player. If you take the players drafted in the 20s, you'll notice that MOST do not wind up being stars. I am not putting this out as an assertion. I went and looked at all the players taken in the draft for a number of years. Most guys taken in the 20s don't wind up being players considered even average contributors. If you (or Kawakami or anyone) got on the stand and simply asserted this to be false, you'd look like a total moron on cross when presented with the list of draftees taken in the 20s who weren't even average players, sat there on the stand while an attorney had you count, had you do simple division and watched you drool and hem and haw when it was clear that odds did not favor players taken in those positions from being any good. The expert opinion would get hit hard over the head with a big old heavy bag of data and analysis that even a judge who switched from pre-med to pre-law because he didn't like the math in the chem classes couldn't dispute. The credentials go out the window when dealing with an empirical matter. Opinion has a difficult time disputing numbers.
And the numbers aren't supporting your position. Most guys drafted in the 20s are not average or better NBA players. You doubt this? Really? Take a look at the guys drafted 20-29 over the last decade. The number of "busts" exceeds the number of players. This is an empirical exercise. It doesn't rely on 'qualifications' or expertise, requires no credentials, and doesn't get any better by talking to a player or coach or GM. All the evidence is there to show that the probability of a pick in the 20s being a very good player is not very good. Dispute this if you wish, but realize that you are the one making the decision to be wrong.
by jae on Mar 23, 2008 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the decision to be wrong
first - i don't see the distinction between yours and my definitions of an expert witness. i don't know where you get that definition, but i just take a pre law seminar at UCLA on evidence, and the definition of an expert witness was on the midterm, a question i got right and a test i got an A on. if you want to look up the teacher, his name is Kenneth Graham Jr. and he's a famous law professor at UCLA law school.
Either way, Kawakami absolutely qualifies for this definition. remember: the CAUSE OF ACTION for this trial is whether or not Kevin Love would be a good pick for the warriors in the early twenties. I need to show why he would be a good pick, and that he could in fact be there when the warriors select. The latter is unprovable, we can only speculate, by i will judicially note that there is at least a possibility he will be there. the judge would allow that to be judicially noted and we could move on.
now, for this cause of action, kawakami qualifies because he has inside knowledge of the warriors AND has basketball knowledge. now, of course a scout would be better, but i don't have the subpoena power to get a scout to tell me what he think about the warriors drafting kevin love. this is the best, most well thought out analysis i could find on the subject. this is exibit A, if you will. Kawakami could demonstrate over and over to a judge his expertise - his personal relationships with the warriors front office, his years of experience covering the nba. he absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt qualifies. you, if you want to be the lawyer on the other side, could argue to the probative value of his testimony, or you could offer a expert witness to counter kawakami's statements.
Second - i don't care if there are people on this blog that thin you're more of an expert than kawakami. in this case of this cause of action, this debate, he trumps you. he has access to the team, to sources througout the nba than you do. period. you're a smart fan. you care a lot. but you don't talk to nelson like kawakami does. you don't know mullin. this is important for this cause of action. to determine what a good pick for the warriors would be, it's important to know from personal experience what mullin and nelson are like, who they look for, what they're most likely to do with the pick. you have no more access than i do, probably less. you might know the most about basketball on this blog, but in a court of law, that would be of little relevance.
Third - you're arguments about the probability of a pick in the 20s turning out to be a very good player is irrelevant. that's where the warriors are gonna draft. they have to pick someone! i assert that if kevin love is available, he'll be the best player on the board, therefor the warriors should draft him. If you can say someone else would be a better pick, fine. i don't think you can. if you can show why he wouldn't work on the warriors, cool. i don't think you can. these are the terms of the argument.
and don't say that my statements lack signficance because i'm speculating. the cause of action for this trial/debate is speculatory in nature. we have to debate in speculations, but we still need to use evidence that's relevant.
you could dismiss this and call me a punk, or you could try to prove me wrong on the issues at hand.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yawn.
Yawn.
Honestly, I don't remember what Kawakami's position was, what he was saying. It doesn't actually matter to me. I don't accept that because he's a sportswriter he's right and I'm wrong and that his opinion should have more weight in an argument. Perhaps a judge would see it that way but again we are not in a courtroom here. For what it's worth, it's very, very clear that you do not have any particular knowledge of how courts actually operate. As you don't know much about the judicial system, I don't see any particular reason why you'd want to simulate a courtroom setting for your arguments and far, far less reason why anyone else would want to slog into your ridiculous court-concept.
I didn't call you a punk or dismiss you, though I will say that you'd look a whole lot more intelligent if you learned a few rules of grammar, like a sentence begins with a capital letter and "you're" is a contraction of "you are" rather than the possession form of the second person. Your "A" in pre-law would seem more impressive if you actually expressed yourself like college material. You don't. It's frankly a rather embarrassing indictment of our public university system that you are a student at UCLA with such atrocious writing skills. Your dad's a writer. He should be able to give you some pointers.
by jae on Mar 23, 2008 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
an indictment indeed
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 24, 2008 3:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iggy, Iggy, Iggy...
You are clearly more concerned with being "right" than entering into any kind of honest conversation or debate. Maybe it's a common fault of someone studying law to get caught up in the argument itself and ignore the truth.
Either way it looks to me as though you would be served well to sever your personal connection to "your" argument and look at the facts and listen to what others are saying. As long as you continue to make your focus being "right" chances are we will end up at name calling and snide comments like the one above.
As you've told me in the past, I know more than you =P. Here is one thing that I know that you should learn - JAE is a real sharp guy, and if you stop arguing and start listening, his insights and ability to thoughtfully challenge conventional wisdom will make you a better fan.
And for the record I'll take JAE over TK any day of the week.
by olympicmike on Mar 24, 2008 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
access
i do want to be right, and i think the whole fun of sports debates is trying to win. every here gets butt hurt over confrontation.
jae's main argument against mine is that my opinion's and tim kawakami's opinions are invalid because he's smarter than both of us. i've presented my argument in a rational, cogent, thorough way. he's just given his opinion and dismissed mine. i'm new to blogs and the whole blogging community, but i don't like how everyone thinks they're an expert. everyone has an opinion.
the fact of the matter is that whoever this jae guy is, he still doesn't have access to players, coaches, and gms. he sits at his computer like anyone of us and thinks what he thinks. that's a smart fan, not an expert.
if i wanted to figure out the answer to whether kevin love would be a good pick for the warriors, i would want to ask people in the league what they think, not jae. and that's what kawakami did. so say what you will about his basketball knowledge (which is very good) his access is what give his opinions weight.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 24, 2008 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why
by BD4mvp on Mar 24, 2008 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yawn.
Now here's your chance to go back and try to figure out what I really said. Spelling it out for you has become tiring and since didn't show the ability to read for comprehension in the past, I don't see what use putting it forward for you again will do.
by jae on Mar 24, 2008 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know who you are
we'll see this summer who's right. who's right about kevin love. who's right about biedrins. we'll see.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 25, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yawn
Such appears to be your opinion, which, as it seems, is shared by you and you alone. Am I condescending? Only to those who insist on showing off how far below me they actually, are, Iggy. You might grow up to realize what a dweeb you're being, but I suspect that dweeb at 20 is likely to be dweeb at 30, 40, 50.
by jae on Mar 25, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
Well, see this is a problem, not just with you, but with the whole way debate tends to be conducted in the blogosphere and the mainstream media. Unless there's on an honest effort on both "sides" of a debate to triangulate the truth, all you end up with is a whole lot of meaningless noise. Hence, my earlier comparison of you and O'Reilly. It is a little sad that you wear that mantle so proudly.
Meanwhile, what exactly do you mean by "trying to win"? If the bottom line is reporting an objective reality, you've lost miserably from the get-go, since you admit that you're less concerned with truth than with "winning." If the bottom line is getting a bunch of people to agree with you: you could always try doing a poll, but I suspect you and your ideas are marginally less popular on this site than Mark Cuban.
Resorting to homophobic digs at nice people only makes your ideas look more ridiculous than they are. Being, you know, a nice, decent dude can get you far in this world. Ask Barack Obama. Unfortunately, that ship seems to have passed you by. I mean, none of us are perfect, but most of us least try not to be raging Pric ... er Dic ... er, Dick Cheneys. ;-)
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 25, 2008 5:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there is no objective reality
so far jae has said that his opinions are better than kawakami's, even though jae has spoken to zero people around the league, and bases his opinions on mock drafts and some research he alludes to. you guys should go find literature from people smarter than yourselves that agree with you. or you should go stalk mullin and get a quote. and if you guys think that kevin love had any intention of telling that guy pree the truth, what he was really thinking, what his true motives were, you guys are more delusional than i thought.
love will never be a lottery pick. he's going to leave after this year.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 25, 2008 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Really, we're not arguing at all. I'm simply making a case that: (1) you're an noisy little egomaniac; (2) you express yourself poorly; (3) you don't believe in objectivity and reason; and (4) you fail miserably in your efforts to persuade anybody, other than yourself, of anything.
The great thing is that you keep making this exact same case -- only much, much better than I ever could. Well done, grasshopper!
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 25, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iggy
Everything he told me is true. Iggy is truly a total moron. I'm hesitant to use name calling, but I couldn't come up with anything more profound. Seriously, this whole court room 'situation' he's set up is possibly the stupidest idea I've ever heard of. Iggy, have you ever been in a court room? I don't think you have, so why make that your forum of choice? Taking a class on evidence does not make you an expert on the law, or expert witnesses. There are people who are experts. They are called lawyers. Try again after law school.
Your use of the term probative is entirely unnecessary and over done. Seriously, this isn't the Supreme Court, or any other court. No one cares whether some random journalist will provide probative evidence. Furthermore, the only thing a journalist might be qualified to be an expert witness in, is journalism. Not the NBA, not draft picks, not the president, or foreign policy. You talk about all the people he's talked to. Those people are the expert witnesses. Just for kicks I checked out Westlaw to see if journalists are ever used as experts regarding speculation on the subject in which they happen to cover. The answer of course being, no.
You've shown absolutely no ability to comprehend what other people say to you. You just reproduce the same textual diarrhea regardless of the argument you're facing. You get on the other writers for ignoring your points and focusing on minutiae, but that is what you're doing. I know nothing about this site, but after reading the posts by JAE, I'd say he's established credibility over time and with positive production of ideas. You on the other hand are systematically destroying any credibility you might have had.
Referencing your future earnings capability is pretty pathetic, and I get the impression that you're going to be a journalist. Get real, you'll get paid like a janitor. Even so, wait until you have a real job before talking trash about it. I bet when you say UCLA you really mean some crappy community college in
You are indeed a first class dbag. You are polluting the internet with your mindless dribble. You should be ashamed of yourself for making all the poor people who love the warriors have to put up with your garbage. Pleae do them all a favor and forget your login information.
by truth32 on Mar 26, 2008 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wrong
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2008 2:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha ha
C'mon Iggy. In terms of quality of thinking, JAE > Kawakami > you. And those are pretty huge dropoffs. I basically like Kawakami and agree with him most of the time; and I think even you make the occasional good point. But it's pretty obvious that JAE understands hoops, numbers, and how to interpret them, far better than both of you.
Moreover, unlike both of you, he tends to leave "himself" out all of his discussions, attempting to get at something like proof, or the truth, rather than defending his own pet ideas simply because, well, they're his.
Indeed, I have a strong suspicion that the quality of JAE's analysis is not totally unrelated to the fact that he's so good at leaving his ego out of it. Needless to say, the converse seems to apply to you.
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 24, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TK's not always a sports JOURNALIST...
maybe this was said... but because I'm not getting graded, it makes my ADD brain go crazy to try to read everything through.
but Tim Kawakami in his talking points isn't really a journalist if you go by the definition of journalist being someone who reports objective facts (which isn't possible according to many... but that's another discussion)
In his column sometimes he reminds his readers that he's a columnist, and his job there is to his opinion not fact. Half the fun in reading TK is finding out if he's wrong or not... when you take his words as automatic truths, you miss the point! He's great because he is very opinionated and he often challenges the popular opinion, and a lot of times he turns out to be right. He also turns out to be wrong almost as often. But he likes to throw things out for debate and discussion.
I personally don't think someone who likes to toss out ideas just for the sake of argument would make a good expert witness, which is what TK does. Does he make for a lively mock trial? Sure. As for throwing out expert analysis based on facts? You might want to ask another JOURNALIST, not a COLUMNIST.
by Baron Von DOOM on Mar 25, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Chimp?
by Golden Boy on Mar 23, 2008 8:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Can They?
by Golden Boy on Mar 23, 2008 8:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope they keep getting terrible refs

then we will fight in the shade.
by Swamp Thing on Mar 23, 2008 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i really
by bigbenny11 on Mar 23, 2008 8:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What we need
In terms of frosh college big men, Love, Singler, and Greene are the most intriguing prospects, and all fit our system. It's too bad that Greene is waaayyyyy out of our reach, so we should try to get the Oregonians in the upcoming drafts. Also wouldn't mind taking a look at Davon Jefferson though...
by FHWANG007 on Mar 23, 2008 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just a quick comment
His answer: "If I'm hot and opportunities present itself, maybe I'll go."
Love is not the kind of kid that is going to just for the sake of going. He knows he has work to do, including finding ways to become quicker and increasing his conditioning.
Plus, Love is very into the tradition of UCLA and was honored that Walt Hazzard gave up his retired number for Kevin to share with him. Hazzard was a part of UCLA's very first championship and Love told me that he feels like he owes Hazzard and UCLA a championship before he leaves.
People I have spoken to have told me that he will not leave college unless he gets a lottery promise. He knows that the 09 Draft is weak right now and will almost certainly go top-10 that year if he stays another year.
That means he's an unlikely pick for the Warriors. Although the dream is great (this is like Yi all over again!), it's important to stay grounded in reality.
by pree on Mar 23, 2008 4:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
there is no way kevin love ever goes top 10
people that will go ahead of love in the 09 draft
greg monroe
demar derozan
bj bullens
kosta koufos
brandon jennings
blake griffin
kyle singler
plus maybe 5 other european guys
love has problems, problems that will prevent him from being a lottery pick. i still think he'll be a very good player, and he'll flourish on the warriors from day 1.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"athleticism"
If he's going to be a "very good player" he should go in the lottery. Most players taken in the lottery do not wind up up being very. Something is thus at odds here. Either teams consistently pass up on better players for some reason (e.g. a lack of "athleticism") and/or it's difficult to tell what players taken later in the draft will wind up doing at the next level. I suspect it's a combination of the two. Many teams make mistakes in the draft because they are fooled by something (for sake, we can call it "potential" or "upside" or "ceiling"), not necessarily knowing what it is that makes players successful at the next level AND there's just a high degree of uncertainty when making any projection.
In either (or both) case(s) any certainty about where Love will wind up and what he'll be able to do at the next level should be met with more than just a touch of skepticism.
by jae on Mar 23, 2008 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's brilliant
here's why kevin love will never be a lottery player. teams pick based on how good they think a player will be some day in the nba. they rarely draft for immediate needs or contributions like they do in football. They want the player with the highest ceilings, or a center, in the lottery.
love has a bad perception because people believe he won't get much better than he already is. he's incredibly fundamental for his age. he does all the little things, plus he has a million offensive moves. but he lacks lateral quickness, leaping ability, and wingspan. he won't drastically improve on any of those areas, because you can't teach those things. nba execs like to draft guys that have all the physical tools, then teach them the fundamentals.
another things, you assert that if he's going to be a very good player, he should go in the lottery. the major premise behind that statement is that all very good nba players were drafted in the lottery, and and all nba players that are less than very good were drafted lower. these gms get these things wrong every year. that's why kevin love is so interesting.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfair assessment
Look at the Sonics - they kept taking centers (Swift, Petro, Sene) because they needed one. Hawes was a need fot the Kings.
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but the draft is far too much of a crapshoot to make sweeping statements like that.
by pree on Mar 23, 2008 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yawn
Neither you nor I know where Love will be drafted. We can speculate, but that's speculation. Your argument that teams tend to draft on upside and 'ceiling' is sometimes correct, but it's certainly not an absolute rule. My counter that some questionable big men (I could extend this to questionable players in general) have been drafted in the lottery (I actually confined my examples to top 10 picks) indicates that this is not a hard and fast rule.
Right now there's no consensus on what people think about Love and his potential. Mock draft sites (which are reflections of someone's opinion, though, especially this far before the draft give some idea) offer some suggestion. The first three I checked have him at 14 (NBADraft.net), 8 (DraftExpress), and 13 (Hoopshype). Do these sites have special knowledge? I doubt it, but it suggests that more than a few people out there think that he'll declare and he'll wind up in in the lottery. [These sites at least seem to understand how to capitalize the beginning of a sentence.] I don't know, and frankly, I don't care. Your certainty and your rather amateurish attempts to validate your certainty will be met with skepticism so long as you present yourself as you do.
by jae on Mar 23, 2008 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sir
one observation - love was significantly lower in those mock drafts a few weeks ago - i.e. before the tournament. i think the more likely reason for the spike in his online stock is that more people are seeing him play, and he's getting more hype. but nba scouts have known about love for much longer. it's not like he's doing anything in the tournament than he didn't do in the regular season. he won't be a lottery pick. i bet you a nickel.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank god
by 3Kings650 on Mar 23, 2008 4:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
stephon curry
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 10:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
thats the best
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2008 2:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
collison
do you think collison could get a shot off in the nba though? he brings it behind his head like jackson, but he's so short.
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 26, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2008 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares about Kevin Love right now?
Pree stated:
Well I guess that means he won't come out this summer... I would say that Pree is the closest thing to an expert witness on this site OVER EVERYONE! What would constitute such a claim?
This quote says it all. He spoke with Love himself. If that doesn't scream professional witness then I don't know what does.
Well... I know UCLA has a good chance at winning the National Championship, but that still is a BIG BUT as UCLA barely scraped by Texas A&M.
Which brings me to this... if Kevin Love isn't even going into the draft, then why talk about letting ANDRIS BIEDRINS WALK JUST TO DRAFT THIS GUY?
Iggy, honestly this was a thoughtful idea, when you posted it a month ago. Now it's getting old and redundant. We are in the midst of a playoff run and all you can think about is KEVIN FRIGGIN LOVE!?!?!? Get back at me after the playoffs and when Kevin Love has an agent.
by mightymadskillz on Mar 23, 2008 10:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Clarification
Focusing on the playoffs right now. In reality, most GMs are just now starting to REALLY look at prospects.
by pree on Mar 23, 2008 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah man
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah... Lottery pick right?
I fully read that part. Now unless we are expecting the Warriors to become a lottery team... It doesn't seem very likely.
by mightymadskillz on Mar 23, 2008 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
Just wanted to be clear on my end.
by pree on Mar 23, 2008 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No problem!
by mightymadskillz on Mar 24, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 23, 2008 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well enjoy your dreams of a Biedrinless team
by mightymadskillz on Mar 23, 2008 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ho hum
go WKU and the FILIPINO ASSASSIN JAPETH AGUILAR!!!
warriors dont fish they hunt!
by VonteegoCummings on Mar 23, 2008 10:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Again?
Second, how is K. Love realistically gonna push the Dubs over the hump and get us a championship if he's a "projected" mid 1st rounder.Let's just say Mully for some odd reason just releases Beans and drafts K. Love to run our high-post (like what Kawakami predicts), which is to begin with our 2nd offensive option opposed to just running, what happens? We get team Dubs with a younger white version of C. Webb to play when the game's stall. So not only will 2 years be wasted on a team that just spent the past season growing, they have to start all over and switch to what used to be plan B. Now how is THAT going to help us? Guess what: Tyler Hansborough, Anthony Randolph (think BW), and Richard Hendrix can do those things AND are more athletic than K. Love is. Hell, I'd throw in Robin Lopez if it wasn't for the fact that he hasn't shown the range his brother has, but I'll put him here cause he's the definition of a "scrappy" player and does everything a role player needs to (which K. Love WILL be if the Dubs get him).
Third. EVERYTHING written by Iggy is speculation. There isn't a right or wrong because there is no answer. Please, don't boast or even go back at others with "I'm right because I have an expert witness". A sports writer that has the same opinion as you who has connections with league GMs doesn't make you "right".
Well I can do that too actually, I also have the internet: According to Don Nelson of the Warriors "...Andris's is a pivotal part of our interior defense and his willingness to clean up after misguided offensive swings makes him valuable to us..." That was from an interview at NBA.com and whoa! I guess since my "expert witness" actually coaches the team I'm right! Well, no I'm not because I'm also speculating that Nelson wouldn't be looking at drafting Love. Not only that but my quote really doesn't say anything besides what we all know already. What'd quoting Kawakami get? Well, nothing because he's repeating the same opinion as Iggy.
by gunwing54 on Mar 24, 2008 2:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
asdf
basketball today
what's next?
by Lat We N Trash on Mar 24, 2008 5:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
hey guys this is Iggy!
by Dubs fan in Boston on Mar 24, 2008 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ha
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2008 2:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top three Iggys:

Number Two...

Er ... those are the only ones I can think of... :-(
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 24, 2008 11:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
3rd place

just because of poor competition
by Lat We N Trash on Mar 24, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iggy #3

by jae on Mar 24, 2008 2:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
haha
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 24, 2008 4:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i am going to make my explanation short.
by CatchAndShoot on Mar 25, 2008 10:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope he stays all 4...
by Baron Von DOOM on Mar 25, 2008 11:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
uh...
by BD4mvp on Mar 25, 2008 10:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
iggy to make a true political comparison
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2008 2:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Change "We Believe" In?
TK is very divisive in that you either love what he says or you hate it (so it seems from reading his comment sections).
Obama bridges more people from different walks of live than we ever would've imagined.
So if you're down with "We Believe" why not "Change We Can Believe In"?
Both dreams worth hoping for, I think.
by Baron Von DOOM on Mar 26, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will agree
by Baron Von DOOM on Mar 27, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is way off topic, but...
by Iggy_Zohn on Mar 26, 2008 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
Another 49% will never vote for the party of greed, jingoism, Christian theocracy, homophobia, environmental degradation, war and hate.
So Presidential elections are more or less decided by a select few indecisive doofuses in swing states like Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida.
What a country!
(For the record, if I get a vote, OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM...)
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 26, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm cool with
by Baron Von DOOM on Mar 27, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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