*Official Joey Dorsey Movement*
by gabezgsw on Apr 17, 2008 10:03 AM PDT
37 comments
So first was the KG Movement. That didn't last long with Boston crushing anyone’s hopes.
Then came the Yi Movement. Well, we all know the story on that one.
Well, here comes one that will bring the Dubs what they have been missing for years-a bad a** , bruising, pounding, rebound fiending inside presence that can run the floor, pass the ball, initiate an alley-oop and just has that attitude of get out da way or I'm gonna crush you style of player. No he's not Ben Wallace. No he's not Amare. No he's not KG or Boozer or Brand. He is 6'9" and is 260 lbs, which btw is bigger than most NBA players. HIS NAME IS JOEY DORSEY.
With all the hype over the years on guys like Bryant "Big Country" Reeves, Michael Oliwkandi, Christian Laetner, Kwame Brown, Stromile Swift, and umm, Mike Dunleavy players like Paul Milsap, Jason Maxielle, Brandon Bass and may more get picked up and help out their teams much more than guys who are hyped out the gate. Dorsey is that guy. He has the intensity, speed, athleticism, rebounding, shot blocking ability and defense we need so badly. Enough with the agile 6'8" 220 lbs string bean players Nellie likes. We already have enough of those guys who can shoot 3's, pass well and have some speed. We need a stud! A man! A man's man! I foresee Dorsey coming in and helping immediately and for very little $. He has desire and a will to pull down every board and get bloody doing it. At this point all our players stand on the perimeter and don't even box out on a rebound. We need this type of guy.
Am I the only one who see's the potential and how valuable he could be?
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Wait...we had him already
I think his name was DJ Mbenga
by Fantasy Junkie on Apr 17, 2008 10:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
haha
Yes and no…DJ Mbenga never had the formal upbringing of organized ball. I think Joey Dorsey has more fundamentals set than DJ did, playing a similar Warrior style fast tempo ball at Memphis.
But Joey Dorsey doesn’t have a offensive game in him besides dunking and put backs…kinda like what Beans is.
Plus Joey Dorsey wil be gone by the time we pick in the second round, and he’s too high of a reach for our first.
One more thing, hes not that comparableto Maxielle, and Milsap because those guys have post moves, Dorsey is more inept at that skill, something the Warriors really need.
Stephen Jackson..."I make love to pressure."
by 3 The Hard Way on Apr 17, 2008 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm.
I might be forgetful. But i believe the Yi movement started at least a year before the KG movement of last summer.
No on Dorsey. He got destroyed by the frontline against Kansas. Arthur tore the guy up and he’s a borderline lottery pick.
His rebounding rate per 40 pace adjusted is pretty stellar (14.4) and his blocks as well (2.9).
But with the 14th pick in the draft, you don’t want to waste your selection on Dorsey. I’d much rather have guys that have a clue on offense and have actual upside (Dorsey is already 24 i believe). Love and Speights both have comparable rebounding rates and block some shots here and there. Plus they can actually score.
I’d take a gamble on him with our second rounder. But i wouldn’t trade any of our assets for him.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 17, 2008 10:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
100% agree to the Joey Dorsey Movement
Joey Dorsey is exactly the kind of player the Warriors have been missing. Dorsey is a physical, strong, and explosive player. He can provide a defensive low post presence that the Warriors been lacking. I agree that 14 is too high to draft Dorsey, but somehow we have to figure out how to get this guy. He can be extremely valuable off the bench to provide a spark and guard tough low post scorers that continually abuse the Warriors.
by GSW07 on Apr 17, 2008 12:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree completely to this and the OP.
For one main reason.
Since Gabezgsw states that energetic, offensive rebounding bruisers abuse the warriors (a point that i agree on), then we need to get one ourselves.
Q) What do Brandon Bass, Paul Milsapp, Jason Maxiell and Tyson Chandler all have in common?
A) They all have that energetic quality and affinity to rebound. And They all have an All-Star, or near All-Star front court player next to them. That cannot be stressed enough. The Mavs, Jazz, Pistons, and Hornets can afford to have one dimensional frontcourt players on the court at any given time because they have an offensive big playing next to them.
The Warriors don’t have an established two-way threat in the frontcourt. I love the idea of having a Paul Milsapp type player, and if Dorsey is that player than great. But we shouldn’t focus on ancillary parts when we don’t have the main ingredient first!!!
I believe that is a big part of why Milsapp et al can be so productive. Teams need to focus on the other frontcourt stars, thus leaving them open for the putback or dump off. Right now, the warriors lack the inside threat to demand a double team on any given posession, or be the main focus for a team’s defense.
If we can get Dorsey in the second round, that’s great. But in the first round we better draft a Big or trade for one.
IMO, the team will probably give this team a try for at least one more year. If Nellie’s coming back for one more season, i doubt he’ll have much interest in rebuilding for someone else to get credit (Dallas all over again). I believe that with Nelson only guaranteed for one last year means that Baron will not get his contract extended this summer (not ruling out an extension next summer). The question then becomes, what coach can contain the ego’s in the locker room? Who can keep Baron and Jax in check?
Thus we give it one more try this year, increase the depth on this team. Try and establish that low post player, whether that be Brandan Wright or the Pick or through trade. I wouldn’t expect to see a major shakeup, more like a lot of small moves.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 17, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who needs Offense…
When you have BD, SJAX, AL, Andris, Monta, Buike, Belinelli, BWright, MP2, CJ Watson and more, why do you need more scoring?
Do any of you actually know that the Dubs were the highest scoring team in the entire NBA? WTF would you need any more points for? Post moves, pump fakes or whatever else-we don’t need no stinking offense. We need a MAN! Someone who WANTS to board. Someone who WANTS to block shots. Someone who relishes the "ugly" work.
Regardless of who we get, we need an inside presence to help us rebound and effect the inside game to where we don’t get abused as we have for 2 years straight. Hell, at least Adonal Foyal and Troy Murphy boxed people out for a board. Our guys are too worried about getting back on D because of how many jump shots we take.
Dorsey is our Man. Gamble a little. Have some insight and use the grey matter a little Mullson. We have enough scoring people! We need a Beast and Dorsey is that guy!!!
by gabezgsw on Apr 17, 2008 1:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You've watched a Warriors game,
So i’m going to assume that you know how notoriously streaky this team is. Nellie, Jax, and Baron have all publicly stated that fact. It’s not just Nellie’s system of guards, but also the lack of a dominant, established bigman that we run our perimeter oriented offense.
Maintaining a perimeter offense will always prone teams to scoring droughts. Low post bigmen can provide a consistent scoring option that can score points at a high percentage. They require double teams. Double teams force teams to over-commit on one big leaving your perimeter guys open.
It’s not that we need more scoring. We just need to get more efficient at it.
Dorsey isn’t the total, all-encompasing answer to all of our woes. He’s really not. You’ll eventually see it. We need a good-two-way big. Not a one dimensional role player.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 17, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Feeling you, but...
I love Dorsey’s physical game and his intensity but we need a bruiser who’s got a bit more offensive potential…
Below is an interesting argument put forth over on The Mind of Mullin blog about the value of taking Marreese Spreights for many of the same reasons you argue we should go after Dorsey.
How many times have the Warriors been abused by undersized, athletic PF’s the last couple of seasons? The likes of Milsap, Landry, Maxiell, and Thornton turn into All-Stars when they face the Warriors. We’re too small, too light, too this, too that. We have no answer on our current roster, but Marreese Speights just might be what the doctor ordered. Although he’s raw, he possess the tools and traits to grow into that physical pressence in the paint the Warriors so desperately need.Sitting on the bench on the Championship winning Florida Gators last year, he patiently waited for his turn to shine. This year he has emerged behind the shadows of Joakim Noah and Al Horford to man the paint for the Gators. Only a sophomore, he has wowed scouts and made a name for himself with his efficient and powerful play. His per-40 production is outstanding (23.9 pts, 12.8 reb, 2.8 blk). He ranks 6th overall in EFF/40 with 31.0 behind Michael Beasley (37.7), Reggie Williams, Kevin Love (32.8), Luke Harangody, and Jason Thompson (31.1).
Speights is a great prospect who will need time to mature, but whether he declares for this year’s draft is still unclear. Teams will drool over his shooting touch, power and NBA ready body that oozes with potential. Whatever he decides, he will likely be a lottery pick.
Only video I can find: High School Days
I posted this elsewhere but I think its worth repeating because of it’s relevancy. ..
"To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are." - Muhammad Ali
by Dubs Wise on Apr 17, 2008 2:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Speights would definitely be interesting
he played in a very uptempo style with Florida, but the question is if he has quick enough feet to play at a 4 or if he is exclusively a 5.
by Hac Man on Apr 17, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let the Speights movement begin!!!
I’m all over him, and I’ve never seen him play.
As for this:
With all the hype over the years on guys like Bryant “Big Country” Reeves, Michael Oliwkandi, Christian Laetner, Kwame Brown, Stromile Swift, and umm, Mike Dunleavy players like Paul Milsap, Jason Maxielle, Brandon Bass and may more get picked up and help out their teams much more than guys who are hyped out the gate.
Gabez, man, talk about cherrypicking to support your position that obscure mid-round guys tend to thrive in the NBA.
Some other prospects who were “hyped out the gate”: LeBron, Shaq, Duncan, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem…
Some other mid-first-to-second round-types who Ws fans got briefly excited about: Cliff Rozier, Carlos Rogers, Nikoloz Tskitishvili (in trade), Troy Murphy, Ike Diogu, POB, Belinelli…
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 17, 2008 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No on Dorsey
I do agree the Warriors need all the qualities that you list above. I just don’t think Dorsey brings enough of that. He is currently listed at 6-9. 265, which means he’s probably closer to 6-8. Plus he’s a bit overaged. (He’s actually nearly 3 years older than Andris!) which means a lot of his current advantage is due to just being more physically mature than the players he is going up against. He won’t have that in the NBA.
Maybe in the second round to be the first post player off the bench, but not the cure.
by Hac Man on Apr 17, 2008 3:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hell
No. Dorsey has no offensive game. If you want a good defensive player and legit offensive player, pick up Hasheem Thabeet! From my favorite college team, UCONN!
It's Been A Great Year! Thanks Warriors!
by ballin on Apr 17, 2008 5:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i dunno
just cuz he looks similar to ben wallace, doesnt mean he will play like him. he’d be a nice 2nd round pick but probably wont be there and he’d be huge reach in the 1st.
by sam23 on Apr 17, 2008 9:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
only if Dorsey
was available in the 2nd round would I like the pickup for the Dubz.
But I’m sure that no Dubz fan would be an advocate of picking him up in the lottery. And if there is one, then they probably liked every one of St.Jean’s picks.
by misterjennings on Apr 18, 2008 11:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dosey ok pick if...
in the second round. I agree he doesn’t have much of an offensive game, but as long as he can finish around the basketball I can live with that. We want to use him as a hustle type player (fouls, rebs, put backs, etc.).
In the first round I hope the warriors can grab Darrell Arthur an athletic 6-9 PF from Kansas. He has a nice low post game and can make FTs!!! he looks promising. If we were to win the lottery Beasley of course but I’m not holding my breath.
Check this video on him vs Florida (Noah & Hortford)
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/darrellarthur.html
Just make it happen!!!
by vicious1 on Apr 18, 2008 2:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
WHAT ABOUT .....
The DeAndre Jordan MOVEMENT!!!!! more and more im starting to like this guy. nbadraft.net compares him to dwight howard
by GoldenThunder on Apr 18, 2008 3:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yea
i like jordan a lot, but they also compared him to patrick obryant…...ugh.
by sam23 on Apr 18, 2008 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen Jordan play?
I just think he’s light years away from contributing to an NBA team. I’ve only seen him a handful of times this year, but felt unimpressed each time. Every now and then there’ll be an Andrew Bynum, but for each Bynum there are multiple Sene’s, O’Bryant’s, Petro’s, and Swifts…(actually maybe it’s just Seattle that screws up).
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 19, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i only saw jordan play
3 or 4 times. and like you i wasnt impressed with his overall play but he showed flashes. that sounds a lot like P.O’B , but his flashes were more like dwight howard. He’s got the highest ceiling of anyone that could be available at 14 I think, but also the lowest floor of any likely lottery pick. I’m not a big fan of the Kansas guy, and I only saw Thabeet play a couple times. In terms of big guys i dunno who else would be worthy of the 14th pick.
by sam23 on Apr 19, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mareese Speights.
I never saw him play, only read the blogs about him. I think we could use Love. I’d also like Donte Greene a whole lot too. But our biggest need is at the 4. Speights, Love, Arthur, or Greene.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 19, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea
i know nothing about speights. im not big on arthur and i think love will be gone
by sam23 on Apr 20, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get your concern for Arthur
He’s under performed thus far. The whole season he didn’t really tear the Big 10 up nor did he do so in the tourney until the last game. But his physical gifts have always been there. Plus he does have an offensive touch and some post moves as well.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 20, 2008 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JOEY DORSEY
he cant do anythign in the nba he will be a bust! just like kevin love
So I don't have a signature well these words would do! Who knew that upgrades can have downgrades too!
by 24k state fan since 87 on Apr 19, 2008 3:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's our Second Rounder
Big Bodied Nathan Jawai from Australia:
by BobbyLeeHurt on Apr 19, 2008 9:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
looks like adonal
without the blocks
please don’t mullin
by misterjennings on Apr 20, 2008 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting
NJ looks decent. If he slips to the 2nd round I’d take a chance. He looks to have more offensive game over Dorsey.
Just make it happen!!!
by vicious1 on Apr 20, 2008 1:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
exactly what the dubs need...
I mentioned “Joey Dorsey” in a comment a while back saying that he’s exactly what the dubs need. Scoring has never been a problem for them regardless of the shooting slumps everyone seems to be pointing out. Proof in point, they are the highest scoring team in the NBA. Lack of D is not their biggest problem either. The dubs are able to stop teams, but often give up 2nd and 3rd possession shots.
What they need is a rebounder who is dedicated to the task. We have scorers and don’t need another player demanding shots. and nellie will never post-up his big men. If you think the dubs need a low-post scorer, think again. not under don nelson’s system.
Another thing, Dorsey’s liability as a poor free-throw shooter will never come into play. As a rookie, he would not be allowed to play many minutes, not play in clutch end-of-game situations, and not cry about not get enough playing time. He’s a role player, rebounder, athletic talent. The player the dubs do not have and definitely need. If we can get him to play like Dennis Rodman. He would have to be the #1 choice. If the other guys people mentioned, Love, Jordan, if their offensive-skills don’t pan out in the NBA, they would have little raw physical attributes to fall back on. Now imagine if the dubs got the next ben wallace. wasn’t he the forgetton big man that helped bring Detroit a championship? rhetorical question.
by oldskool on Apr 21, 2008 9:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
actually
Jordan is a long, athletically gifted big man. His problem is he hasn’t developed any real low-post, go to moves. He scores on mostly putbacks, dunks and lobs only.
With that kind of athletic ability, his ceiling is way higher than Dorsey’s which is why he is a lottery pick and Dorsey is a projected second rounder.
I like what Dorsey could bring as far as rebounding and D but I would not hesitate one moment to nab Jordan if he falls into our laps if I were Mullin.
by misterjennings on Apr 21, 2008 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dorsey
Is the man. Everything the warriors want. Plus, he will go in the second round, especially if those pingpong balls bounce our way. And against Kanas, he was only out becuase of foul trouble. In g state, that would not matter because he would back up beans
by montasmob69 on Apr 21, 2008 10:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nathan Jawai
We have to get this guy! I almost started a thread about him. Talk about a beast. This guy could give Shaq a run for his $ in regards to boxing out and battling for a rebound. I say regardless of Dorsey, Nathan Jawai needs to be a consideration.
DeAndre Jordan will be gone by the time we get around to him. Maybe if we package Barnes and MP2 or POB in a deal would we ever get him. If we do, man, that would be sick.
I still say if we are stuck with the #14 pick, we should get Dorsey. We don’t need anymore scoring people!?
by gabezgsw on Apr 21, 2008 10:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
well.
I’m glad you’re not giving Mullin advice:
I still say if we are stuck with the #14 pick, we should get Dorsey. We don’t need anymore scoring people!?
Explain to us all why you believe Joey Dorsey, a limited one dimensional role player at best, with very little upside should go before about 16 others? It’s pretty ridiculous. Mullin would be fired if he makes that selection.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 21, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Good ole Kennote, read my original post, thats my explanation why the Dubs need Joey Dorsey.
Through the years I’ve seen many hyped players that were taken in the first round that didn’t do anything of note in their NBA carreer. I MEAN A LOT! With that said, here are some players that were drafted in the #20 spot and below, yet were passed up for a lot of other “potential” or “could be” talent. Thats the case that the Dubs are in again. What I mean by that is we have another mid level 1st round pick. Take a look at all of these players that were picked in the #20 spot and below since 1993, which was the last time we were good up until last year. Have a looksy kenntoe:
Carlos Boozer #35
Tayshaun Prince #23
Josh Howard #29
Monta Ellis #40
Kevin Martin #26
Leandro Barbosa #28
Paul Milsap #47
Gilbert Arenas #31
Michael Redd #43
Tony Parker #28
Andrei Kirilenko #24
Richard Lewis #32
Al Harrington #25
Zydrunas Ilgauskas #20
Derek Fisher #24
Think out side the box people. Look at all this gold that had been passed up when in reality many of the players drafted before them ended up being nothing more than HYPE! To quote the great Chuck D from Public Enemy, ” Don’t Beleive The Hype”!
Here’s some Hype>
Spencer Hawes #10
Yi Jianlian #6
Adam Morrison #3
Sheldon Williams #5
POB #9
Channing Frye #8
Ike Diogu #9
Sebastian Telfair #13
Darko Milicic #2
Mike Sweetney #9
Nicholai Tskitishvilli #5
Dajaun Wagner #6
Thats just though 2002. Before then its even worse. With what is being offered in the 2008 Draft up to the #14 pick combined with the “needs” of the Warriors, Dorsey could be that next Boozer, Josh Howard or Michael Redd. Just thinking outside the box…
by gabezgsw on Apr 21, 2008 1:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And i've already responded to your post. Read my comments.
I see you only addressed my comment regarding Dorsey’s potential.
That’s a very impressive list of guys that teams passed on. All those guys on your list all had an offensive game coming into the NBA as well.I would go into a comparison analysis of Dorsey, but i’m lazy. Boozer, Milsapp, Harrington, Howard…whoever you’re comparing Dorsey to all could score and were better overall players than Dorsey was this year. Dorsey is arguably the best shotblocker of the three, and certainly not the best defender. Everyone on your list was also younger than Dorsey is now when entering the NBA. Don’t forget that Dorsey wasn’t even on mock draft boards before Derrick Rose got to Memphis.
You have to look and understand that the Warriors have no offensive post threat. Yes you may be addressing our rebounding and shotblocking woes on the defensive side. But defense is only half the battle. We need a post player that can score on his own, get high percentage shots, draw double teams, and defend his own position well.
Dorsey is not our missing link. He’d be a decent 4th big off the bench.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 21, 2008 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry to disagree...
but the dubs will never consistently implement a low post player into the current system. The reason is that it will dramatically slow down the game and speed is what this team thrives on. Dorsey is the rebounder when no else wants to rebound and interior D that we need to contest other teams small talented PFs. The dubs don’t need a center trying to score in the block. They’ve tried Kosta and POB already. And they don’t need a athletic 7-footer either. They’ve tried Mbenga already too. What they need is a tough, hard-working, athletic, “enforcer” who rough-houses down-low. This is what Doresy better than anyone else brings to the table.
by oldskool on Apr 22, 2008 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go read Kawakami's latest interview with Mullin
-Q: Would you say rebounding is your biggest need?-MULLIN: I haven’t heard as much about rebounding this year. I really haven’t looked at those numbers, if they’ve diminished or stayed the same. Or we’ve become OK with it.
But I think we’ve played guys that we’ve used in different positions. In one area, that’s our strength-we put the onus on the other teams. Is it going to cost you? Yeah. But this year when we played pretty well, we’ve off-set that… you have to make the other team pay on the other end…
We’re always looking for improvement. Do we have that guy in place? We might. Brandan might be a guy that in my mind that’s always given us fits, that’s long, athletic forward that doesn’t necessarily have to play on the block, but can. Can also run, is going to get rebounds with his athleticism. That’s something that could be already in place.
-Q: But Nelson has shown that he doesn’t want to play Brandan with Biedrins…
-MULLIN: I think the one thing Brandan needs to be able to do is knock down his shot. Not necessarily the 3, but to be able to come away from the basket, just for his own development. That would help in that scenario and I think it’s going to help his game grow.
-Q: Do you need a post player since you guys shoot so many–maybe too many–3s?
-MULLIN: You look over the course of time, teams that have a low-post scorer do much better than teams that just rely on outside. That’s something you either acquire or you develop it. you establish it not just necessarily with a big player, but that’s something we’re going to need, of course.
-Q: You haven’t had a big man but you play a style where you guys have said you don’t really need one…
-MULLIN: I also said you can accomplish it a different way and/or is that person here, are we developing him?
All the Dorsey fans out there, the point might be moot if Brandan emerges. The counter argument to that then is—how can he defend and rebound his own position against the likes of Boozer and Duncan?
My own answer is: Well, most of the league fails to do so anyway, so might as well look to get more offensive efficiency than what we already have.
Also, Mullin said rebounding wasn’t as big an issue because they have found ways to put pressure on teams in other areas. This my friends, is forcing turnovers and creating the fast break. It is when the Warriors fail to force turnovers and shoot too many outside shots (without making a decent percentage) when they play poorly.
I will maintain. Dorsey isn’t the answer.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Apr 22, 2008 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
reply...
you need to read into Mullin’s words more deeper. He’s says that you can establish a low-post scorer but “not just necessarily with a big player.” I take that to mean that he’d like to see posting baron or a small forward more often. The development of BW is also a point he makes. And I agree. It doesn’t disprove the fact that the dubs do not have an intimidater in the paint who threatens the well-being of anyone who drives the lane. the real problem of the dubs lies solely in the way they give up a lot of easy baskets. Again, scoring slumps will come and go, but defense will win games. steals and blocked shots do not make a good defense. Causing your opponent to take bad shots is. Dorsey is not the answer, but a step in the right direction.
by oldskool on Apr 23, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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