2007-2008 NBA All-Defensive Teams Announced [NBA.com]
1st Team: Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Marcus Camby, Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan
2nd Team: Shane Battier, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Tayshaun Prince, Raja Bell
Notice all of the above players are on playoff squads. Baron Davis received one vote (how?), but no other Warriors received any votes (deservedly so). Monta Ellis and even Kelenna Azubuike get ripped for their horrendous defense as they should, but Andris Biedrins has gotten a pass. He cannot man up too many players in the league and simply does not protect the rim. Biedrins and his 1.2 bpg scare no one.
Don't miss GSoM friend Tim Kawakami's entertaining NBA No-Defense Team.
about 1 year ago
Atma Brother ONE
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baron
got one vote cause he was second in steal.
by saintdee on May 14, 2008 11:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
lol
Baron Davis a good Defender? Nope, his steals and blocks are just statistical smokescreens. Laughable for BD to be on a Defensive team.
by ejdacanay on May 14, 2008 1:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
on the Transparent Biedrins bashing
The Warriors were a better defensive team with Biedrins playing than without him in games. That’s not really open for debate, but stands as empirical by any measure that really matters (e.g. rebounding percentage, oppFG%n allowed, oppPointsPerPossession). No, he didn’t manhandle guys in the paint, but as the only big guy left in the paint 99% of the time. He was thus handicapped to have to do everything and to do so while trying to avoid fouls. Doesn’t mean that they couldn’t be better with another big. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t guys that are better, but he did a more than adequate job. The results indicate that we played better with him than without him. That’s purely a fact.
by jae on May 14, 2008 2:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Appreciate the analysis
But that wasn’t the argument. The evidence that the Warriors played better defense with him in the game is not proof that he was a good defender. It’s simply a measure (and a valid one) of how well the Warriors (a terrible defensive team with or without him) defend with him in the game. Taking that one step further it’s also a measure of how well the Warriors defended without a center in the game since Nellie didn’t play a true backup center.
Your facts are (rebounding percentage, oppFG%n allowed, oppPointsPerPossession) are all valid and appreciated. However, the line that “he did a more than adequate job” is purely subjective. Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili put Tim Duncan in the same situation as Biedrins was this past year with their porous D. Duncan protects the rim and is a great last line of defense. Biedrins isn’t. Doesn’t mean he can’t get there in the future, but it does mean he isn’t there yet.
by Atma Brother ONE on May 14, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dispute that Manu and Tony P. put Duncan in the same situation as Biedrins. The Spurs didn’t run an (essentially) 4 guard lineup with Duncan being the only guy with a third of a decent chance to stop someone in the middle, with only half a snowball’s chance in hell of getting a rebound. I’ve always thought that it’s something of a sham that Duncan still gets listed as a PF for various award and honor voting, but reality is that he continues to play with other big men in the lineup much of the time. They paired him with another big and a perennial all-defensive team SF. That’s really not even in the same ballpark as what the Wariors left Biedrins with. It’s not even close.
No, I’m NOT saying that Biedrins is anything close to Duncan, though I do think that he’s in the same category as a rebounder. Rebounds are somewhat influenced by teammates, but the effect is minimal. Good rebounders, and it takes some significant liberty with the truth to say that he’s not a good rebounder, are good in just about any environment.
My “purely subjective” commentary is no more subjective than your assessment that he’s not a good defender. But I’ve got some actual data in addition to my “purely subjective” opinion. You supplied no such substance. Your anti-Biedrins bias is rather pronounced and transparent though and it’s helpful to have some real facts (e.g. that the Warriors really were a better defensive team with him) than simply asserting that he doesn’t get the job done/gets a free pass, that he doesn’t get the job done.
Now
by jae on May 14, 2008 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good thoughts
I dispute that Manu and Tony P. put Duncan in the same situation as Biedrins. The Spurs didn’t run an (essentially) 4 guard lineup with Duncan being the only guy with a third of a decent chance to stop someone in the middle, with only half a snowball’s chance in hell of getting a rebound.
That’s a fair comment. My point is that there are other big men out there who play with weak defensive perimeter defenders a la Marcus Camby that still protect the rim. I thought Biedrins weakside D was pretty good during his break out season 2 seasons ago. This past year? Not so much. It was soft.
Rebounds are somewhat influenced by teammates, but the effect is minimal. Good rebounders, and it takes some significant liberty with the truth to say that he’s not a good rebounder, are good in just about any environment.
I believe that assertion to some extent. Maybe I’m still scared by Troy Murphy’s rebounding totals with the Warriors. I liked the man and was impressed with his 3 seasons with the Warriors in which he averaged 10+rpg. For years people were saying that those were empty rebounds, but I didn’t really buy it. His two years on the Pacers (6.1 rpg and 7.2 rpg) proved me wrong. Those were empty rebound totals with the Warriors. Part of me is terrified that Biedrins’ gaudy rebounding numbers are in that same empty class, but hopefully I’m wrong. I’d rate him as a pretty good rebounder, but we’ve been fooled before pretty recently.
My "purely subjective" commentary is no more subjective than your assessment that he’s not a good defender. But I’ve got some actual data in addition to my "purely subjective" opinion. You supplied no such substance. Your anti-Biedrins bias is rather pronounced and transparent though and it’s helpful to have some real facts (e.g. that the Warriors really were a better defensive team with him) than simply asserting that he doesn’t get the job done/gets a free pass, that he doesn’t get the job done.
Unfortunately that’s not true. I supplied his 1.2 bpg total as an indicator that he does not protect the rim (down from 1.7bpg the previous season which is odd for this supposed “rising star”). Now I’ll be the first person to tell you that blocks isn’t a perfect measure of how well a big man defends, but I’d say in more cases than not it is highly correlated with how well a person defends the paint.
You’ll probably agree with me to some extent that there just aren’t enough quantitative measures to asses how well a player defends the paint (and defense overall). So, I will augment those low block total numbers with my observations from so many Warriors games when he simply provided little resistance to penetrating guards or even the big men he was guarding in the paint. Nellie himself is on record saying Biedrins is not a shotblocker or the guy to man the interior. Doesn’t mean he’s not a good player and that he can’t get significantly better in this area (although I wouldn’t bank on it) or even that I don’t root for him, just means that I and people far smarter hoops-wise than me don’t think he’s a great defender or even “adequate” defender. I’m not saying that I can’t be wrong or that there’s other ways to look at it, but I’d personally rate him as a poor defender who just makes a terrible defensive team defend slightly better.
I have no idea how this is “anti-Biedrins bias”. It’s just not a fun discussion when there are so many Biedrins fanboys who will go at ridiculous lengths to give him a free pass, but are quick to point out the flaws in the rest of the Warriors games. I hold the unpopular stance here on Biedrins and his upside, impact on the game, and how much the Warriors should commit to him. Last year around this time people were annointing him as a $12 million dollar center and someone the Warriors had the break the bank for before he was even a restricted agent, projecting him to make a huge leap in his game this season: Extension in the Works for Andris Biedrins? (9/3/07)
Well he didn’t make the leap (his stats are virtually identical and in Nellie’s eyes he deserved even less playing time) and the Warriors are going to get him at a far cheaper price than $12 a season. But I will say that as long they don’t have to go much over the $6-8 million range they HAVE to keep him unless they can bring in another mobile, rebounding big man (which is pretty unlikely). He’s a solid player. I don’t expect him to be much more than that and I wouldn’t pay him clinging onto some false hope that he’s going to be a huge impact player.
by Atma Brother ONE on May 15, 2008 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biedrins' stats
last year / this year
PER — 16.2 / 19.2
FG% — .599 / .626
FT% — .521 / .620
Reb/ 36 — 11.5 / 12.9
Pts/ 36 — 11.8 / 13.8
TO / 36 — 1.8 / 1.5
Blk/36 — 2.1 / 1.6
I don’t know what the official definition of “leap” is, but from age 20 to age 21, gaining three points of PER is at least a significant jump. At age 21/22, he was the seventh ranked center in the NBA by PER, trailing only Stoudemire, Duncan, Howard, Jefferson, Yao, and Bynum. The only key areas he didn’t improve in from the previous season were:
1. Blocked shots. Likely attributable to his effort to cut down on fouls. I suspect next year he’ll get better at balancing aggressivity and caution, and come closer to ‘06/07 form, when he was #10 in the NBA in blocks per minute (among players with at least 25 mpg) If it’s true that “blocks isn’t a perfect measure of how well a big man defends, but [...] in more cases than not it is highly correlated with how well a person defends the paint,” then so far AB has proven to be a perfectly good paint defender. He may not be Mutombo or Foyle, but he’s not Eddy Curry either.
2. Minutes played. Likely attributable to either (a) Nellie being capricious/nuts; or possibly (b) Mulson being shrewd enough to realize that they could increase their hand in negotiations by minimizing his minutes. As JAE has said (repeatedly), his lack of PT certainly wasn’t due to his lack of production, as both anecdotally and statistically, the Ws were markedly better with him on the floor.
Obviously he’s extremely valuable, so basically we’re down to splitting hairs about whether he’s worth $12M per year or closer to $8M. That narrow a margin doesn’t really seem worth arguing about.
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by Sleepy Freud on May 15, 2008 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For what it’s worth, a block, on average, is about half as valuable as either a rebound or a point scored in terms of how it effects the probability of victory. Doubling blocked shots has about the same effect on the team as raising your rebounds by 50%. An increase of 1.4 rebounds in general offsets a reduction in blocks of about 2.1 over the same amount of court time. If Biedrins was not challenging for blocks and instead kept rebounding position to prevent offensive boards, in general this is a wise strategic tradeoff. It may not look impressive, but in general, it’s effective. It’s entirely consistent with the stats on team performance with and without him too.
This value was derived by regression of blocks vs. victories as what a block means in terms of the game isn’t a constant. Blocks don’t necessarily mean a defensive stop as a good number of them go back to the team that shot the ball. Not all blocks would have been made baskets either. There also seems to be some effect in some cases of teams that challenge too many shots doing so at the expense of playing good position defense. This is similar to the effect of trying to overplay the steal at the expense of misses leading to easy baskets, something we’ve all seen happen. Defensive rebounds on the other hand always mean the same thing: A shot was missed and the team playing defense recovered the ball without the last shot putting points on the board for the opposition.
Obviously, depending on the particular situations, sometimes a rebound is more important, other times a block does more, but for the most part, a team would do better to try to maximize rebounds even if it meant forgoing some blocks.
by jae on May 15, 2008 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
Did they regress those rebounding numbers for “empty rebounds” — you know, the ones hauled down by big white stiffs? By my calculations, those are only worth 37.8% of a “real” rebound.
For the record:
Career FG%: Biedrins 61.4% / Murphy 43.8%
Career Reb/36: Biedrins 11.7 / Murphy 10.1
Career blocks/36: Biedrins 1.9 / Murphy 0.5
NB: Murphy came into the league at age 21, while the bulk AB’s career numbers were compiled before he was of legal drinking age.
Biedrins ain’t no Troy Murphy. I’m surprised this hasn’t been made clear, when there are “so many Biedrins fanboys who will go at ridiculous lengths to give him a free pass, but are quick to point out the flaws in the rest of the Warriors games.” Man, where are those guys when you need them?
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by Sleepy Freud on May 16, 2008 5:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt there are many “empty rebounds” but they do seem to occur and Murphy may be the posterchild. Murphy’s lofty rebound totals occurred while team rebounding stats declined. While Murphy was in games, the Warriors didn’t rebound as well. He got the available rebounds but the rest of the team suffered and got a smaller percentage of available rebounds and/or there were fewer rebounds total since there were too many made baskets. It’s not necessarily that those rebounds were empty as that they came at a greater price for the rest of the team.
There’s nothing to suggest that this is happening with Biedrins or has happened with Biedrins. When he’s in, the team’s rebounding improves, their defensive stats improve almost across the board. There’s nothing empty about this.
Murphy’s individual stats didn’t correspond with good times for his team when he played. But there’s nothing mysterious about this. The data are there and they indicate this. There’s no need to invoke something mysterious and unknowable like “empty rebounds” to suggest that this might be the case with some other player. There’s real data to look at. These data say that Murphy didn’t help. These data say that Biedrins does help.
Whether Nelson used Andris enough is an issue that’s been debated. I’m not giving Nelson a free pass on his lineup and PT choices considering how they resulted in a dead team down the stretch. I’m certain that he knows more about the game than I do. I’m also almost certain that he makes mistakes, that he’s stubborn to a fault that impedes him from reaching heights his teams otherwise could. I suspect his lineup choices this year are a part of that.
by jae on May 16, 2008 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
Interesting issues you raise, JAE, as always. I’d love to see a bigger pool of players who have racked up big rebounding numbers (say, over 10 rebs/36) while causing their team’s rebounding numbers to decline (with them on the floor). The “empty rebound” could be an interesting thing to try to measure.
Your insights reminded me of a question I’ve been meaning to ask you for a while: has anyone ever tried to parse the value of an offensive rebound v. a defense rebound? I ask because after Biedrins’ crazy 26-rebound performance this year, a Knicks fan friend of mine said something like, “impressive, but it’d be more impressive if he had grabbed a few more on the offensive end.” Somehow in his mind an offensive rebound was more impressive than a defensive one — though, when pressed, he had nothing solid with which to back it up. Just a gut feeling.
My gut feeling was that Biedrins was much more active and effective on the offensive glass than Murphy; and sure enough, the stats bear it out:
Career offensive boards/36 mins: Biedrins 4.2 / Murphy 2.8.
Offensive rebounds as % of overall rebs: Biedrins 35.8% / Murphy 27.7%
Does this indicate anything useful about the “emptiness” of their respective rebounding skills? I’m quite sure you’re going to confound me by revealing that in fact defensive rebounds are much more valuable than offensive ones….
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by Sleepy Freud on May 16, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s some evidence that there’s diminishing returns in rebounds, specifically defensive rebounds. A monster rebounder coming to a lineup may not have a 1 to 1 effect in adding rebounds over the guy he replaced. For example, if Harrington and his 6 rpg gets replaced by Biedrins and his 10 in the same time, the Warriors wouldn’t necessarily see a 4 rpg increase. There’s some evidence that it would be smaller, that some of the rebounds Biedrins gets would be rebounds someone else would otherwise get with a weaker rebounder in the middle. This may explain some of the ‘emptiness’ of some rebounds, but there’s much more to it.
Things like this seem to be true with many of the superexceptional rebounders. But the reasons for this could be many. It may be that when a team can put a Dwight Howard or a Ben Wallace of few years back in the middle, they tend not to surround him with other good rebounders, but take advantage of his skills by running out a smaller rest of the lineup. Use someone like that and you may favor two smaller forwards for the offensive punch they provide. It may not be that there’s diminishing returns so much as that coaches favor balance to the lineup.
The real issue with Murphy was that there did appear to be negative returns on his rebounds at the team level. I suspect this is because he was such a poor defender that there were too many made baskets by the opposition. He’s a good rebounder in getting those boards that are available, but in giving up so many easy shots, he decreases the pool of boards available. He also appears to take boards that would otherwise go to teammates as the rebound rates declines as well.
On the value to the team of a defensive vs. offensive board, they are on average equal. There is no real difference in terms of win probability. The offensive board negates a missed shot, keeping a possession alive while a defensive board starts a possession with a zero recorded for the opponent. Exactly equal in terms of what they mean for relative possession usage. Since possessions, by definition, are essentially equal between teams in a game, this makes complete sense. A possession ‘wasted’ by the opposition (which is what a defensive rebound means) is equivalent a possession wasted by your own team, which is what a defensive rebound by the opposition means. An offensive rebound means your opponent didn’t acquire that defensive board, meaning you retain that value rather than giving it away. It’s entirely logical and also appears to be empirically true when regressing rebound totals of either type against winning percentage.
Offensive rebounds may appear to be more impressive because they often lead to easy putbacks and points. These points though are recorded on their own. For Biedrins, who hits most of his shots inside, it probably does help to have the high number of O boards because he’s converting 60% of these into an immediate 2 points. But that’s not the rebound, that’s the shot. A guy who gets packed in the paint more often or a guy who seems to miss layups regularly doesn’t realize this potential if he takes the shot. It’s best to think about the two issues, the rebound and the subsequent shot separately as they do seem to be skills that aren’t always linked.
I think Murphy’s problems on the offensive glass were largely because it’s tough to board when you’re camped out looking for your three-ball to fall. Biedrins doesn’t have ‘range.’ I suspect that this may be a good thing if his ‘range’ meant that he’s see a drop in rebounds in favor of taking jumpers that he’d hit less than 50% of the time.
by jae on May 16, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, great stuff, JAE.
I should try discussing basketball more often on this site.
I’d add that Murphy’s problems on the offensive glass were also because he’s unathletic and lumbering (which may also be why he’s more comfortable out on the perimeter). Biedrins seems to have a bit of Jamison in him, in his nose for the ball and ability to make quick, successive leaps after it. Anecdotally, he just seems like a gifted tipper-inner.
Hm, now I wish someone would subdivide offensive boards among
1. tip-ins made
2. tip-ins missed
3. board gathered / ball put back in (or foul drawn)
4. board gathered / ball kicked out
I’m pretty sure AB would be way out in front of Murph in categories #1 and 2…
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by Sleepy Freud on May 16, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
boom dizzle got the one
vote b/c with his size and strength he can guard (term used loosely) pretty much anybody on the court. take the last game of the season, he guarded everyone from Dikau (sp?) to Durant.
devils advocate: baron is a good defender (like cap’t jax) on a very bad defending team. defense is a TEAM game.
"i'm just trying to follow my dream, dad."
"but your dream is stupid!"
by pervisNeverNervous on May 14, 2008 4:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey Atma....
You ever notice how all you do is complain?
by xcoma on May 14, 2008 8:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
























