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Nellieball Championship Caliber?

What are the goals? To make the playoffs? To make it to the Western Conference Finals? Or, to win an NBA title?

Star-divide

In recent years the Don Nelson style of basketball has been just as exciting as it has been successful. Teams like the Warriors and Suns have become known around the league as "run and gun" teams. This style helped get the Warriors to the playoffs in 2007 for the first time since the '94 season. It helped attendance grow and built a fan base that the Warriors lacked during their playoff drought. 

I've been a Warrior fan for years and I enjoyed the playoff run just as much as he next fan. However, with the stye of offense they run, I think it might be impossible for them to win an NBA title. Sure, the Jazz were the superior team in 2007 but I can't help but question how tired the Warriors were after a long season running non-stop every night. I don't find this to just be a problem with the Warriors but with the Phoenix Suns as well. Behind Mike D'Antoni the Suns were bounced from the Western Conference Semi Finals by the Spurs in 2007. They were eliminated again this season by San Antonio.

I do enjoy the system, however, I feel that Don Nelson's biggest strength might also be his biggest flaw. His never winning an NBA title is evidence of that. The season is too grueling, and too exhausting to run that kind of system all the way through the playoffs to a title. If you look at all the champions of the previous 9 seasons, each team had a dominant big man. The Warriors do not. Andris Biedrins fits well into the system, but on another team he would be a mediocre center. He is far from dominant.

I love the style of play and excitement that the Warriors bring to the court, but I feel they will not win a championship until Nelson is gone and the style of play is changed.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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One fan's view

Honestly, I just want a team that plays hard each night, is entertaining and makes the playoffs consistently. Championship is far from where we are or what I need to be a happy fan. Nellie ball hasn’t won a championship, but I think it can. However, no matter who the coach is, the players determine the outcome and I think it is our players, more than our coach, that would keep us from a championship. No fault of theirs – its just super hard to accomplish.
Owners, GMs, coaches and players should have championship as the goal each year – fans can keep the expectations a little more realistic and still enjoy the show.

Warrior fan for life - where we are "always just a big man away" from total domination

by buttafingas on Jun 28, 2008 6:48 PM PDT   0 recs

Yea it really is the players and chemistry. It took Jordan years of getting his as kicked to finally get to the finals. Heck, Doc Rivers who never got out of the 1st round and had the NBA’s worst team, gets two additional all-stars and now he has a trophy. Nellie is a genius coach who just has had bad-luck having coached in the same era as Phil Jackson, Chuck Daly, Rudy T., and Pop.

by joestar on Jun 28, 2008 11:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

no it can't

we can’t plays a ounce of D’s if our lives depend on it. We need a Defenese minded coach who also like is offenese minded too.

by warriorfan4life on Jun 28, 2008 9:00 PM PDT   0 recs

I'd like to see

Popovich, Jeff Van Gundy or any other defensive minded coach that you can name, coach this team.

With the personel that we have, it wouldn’t matter.

by misterjennings on Jun 28, 2008 9:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Great Defense and Offensive Coach

Where can we get that? Imma try Walgreens you try Wal-mart.

by joestar on Jun 28, 2008 11:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think we're looking in the wrong places

I say try a more upscale and healthy store… maybe trader joe’s. They have the offense in wine and the defense in healthier treats. Who loves Cuties?!

by GSWarriors4life on Jun 29, 2008 10:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL

I hear we can buy quality coaches for wholesale at Costco, but I wouldn’t buy any without sampling it first.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 10:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Why not?

Nellie won a gold medal as Team USA coach. Why not a Championship?

Also, people sometimes forget the history of running teams in the NBA… check out some of the point totals on the Magic/Kareem Lakers. After the horrid 90s, the pendulum is starting to swing back that way.

Nellie’s biggest problem in getting a ring (as a coach) has been that he’s never had the best team. If not for Bird, McHale, Parrish, he might have a couple already. Not everyone has the good fortune of Phil Jackson, with players like Air Jordan, Scottie Pippin, Shaq, Kobe on his teams.

by Twinkie defense on Jun 28, 2008 9:16 PM PDT   1 recs

Don’t forget the Celtic’s teams that Nellie himself played on. I believe Red Auerbach invented the fast break.

by joestar on Jun 28, 2008 11:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

For the record, the international game of basketball is WAY different than the NBA. Also, that doesn’t take a toll on someone’s body over a long season.

by adamcopes on Jun 29, 2008 11:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Red Auerbach invented the fast break

Just like Al gore invented the internet?
The first guy with a basketball in his hands and no one between him and the basket invented the fast break.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 29, 2008 12:05 AM PDT   0 recs

Dude

That’s a breakaway. “Red invented the fast break” might be overstating it, but he is frequently credited with helping to pioneer and define fast-paced modern hoops as we know it. What we call Nellieball is actually better termed Redball or Celticball. I’m sure Nellie would admit as much.

His importance to the game of basketball cannot be overstated, and his contributions went far beyond the games on the court. Auerbach drafted the NBA’s first African American player, named the first black coach in any professional sports league and had the first all-black starting lineup in NBA history. His coaching innovations were copied by others, and he helped define a style of play that has been emulated for decades.

In the words of sportswriter John Feinstein, Auerbach was “the man who, for all intents and purposes, invented professional basketball.”

Auerbach began his professional coaching career in 1946 with the old Washington Capitols of the Basketball Association of America, the forerunner of the National Basketball Association, which was officially formed in 1949. He retired from coaching when he was 48, but his record of 938 regular season victories - and an additional 99 wins in the playoffs - was not surpassed for nearly 30 years.

He originated the concept of the sixth man, using a key reserve player to enter the game to give his team a lift when his opponents were tiring. He emphasized the fast-break offense, with lightning-strike attacks before the opposing team could retreat on defense. And, beginning with his own playing days at George Washington University, Auerbach employed a fierce, face-to-face style of defense that revolutionized the way basketball was played.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/28/AR2006102801102_pf.html

Meanwhile, I know how fun it is to spew Republican talking points (Obama is muslim, Kerry was a coward in Vietnam, etc.), but (a) Al Gore never claimed to have invented the internet; and (b) probably as much as a politician can, Gore did help encourage and pave the way for the development of the internet.

Internet pioneers Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn stated in the 2000 article “Al Gore and the Internet,” that Gore was “the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development.” His High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991 (often referred to as the Gore Bill) was passed on December 9, 1991 and led to the National Information Infrastructure which Gore referred to as the Information Superhighway. During his period as Vice President, Gore worked towards increasing access to the then-limited Internet through events such as NetDay’96, when he and Clinton helped to wire Ygnacio Valley High School in Concord, California.

In a March 9, 1999 interview on CNN’s Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, Gore stated, “During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country’s economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.” UCLA professor of information studies, Philip E. Agre and journalist Eric Boehlert both argue that three articles in Wired News led to the creation of the widely spread urban legend that Gore claimed to have “invented the Internet,” which followed this interview. This urban legend became “an automatic laugh. Jay Leno, David Letterman, or any other comedic talent can crack a joke about Al Gore ‘inventing the Internet,’ and the audience is likely to respond with howls of laughter.”

In response to the controversy, Cerf and Kahn argued that, “We don’t think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he ‘invented’ the Internet. Moreover, there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore’s initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving Internet.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

Sign ^^^^ !!!

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 29, 2008 3:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Republican talking points

I think they’ve conceded the internet to Gore and are trying to claim McCain invented immigration during his timeout in vietnam

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 29, 2008 2:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Obama isn’t muslim.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 5:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I just want to let you know that I appreciated this post and laughed out loud when i read it.

by adamcopes on Jun 29, 2008 11:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

while the rest of us laugh at you and the skeptic.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 5:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not saying any were better, i just think that Nellie ball cant win a title.

by adamcopes on Jun 29, 2008 11:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

the was like 20 coaches ago. You probably weren’t even born then.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 5:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL

who the hell is “Andreis Beidrens” ? are you sure “you’ve been a Warrior fan for years”?

are you talking about this medicore guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QP1hlx-pzw

and what is “another team”? Hornets? Nets? Grizzlies? Blazers?
or you mean Lakers or Celtics -BTW where are this Heat championship caliber team now?

build a team & destroy the roof

by Lat We N Trash on Jun 29, 2008 6:20 AM PDT   0 recs

HAHAHAHA... it's like the movie "Semi Pro"

Andre 3000: “Who the f* is Bambi?!?” (inside joke)

by Tony.psd on Jun 29, 2008 8:40 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL

yeah…. a washing machine worth

build a team & destroy the roof

by Lat We N Trash on Jun 29, 2008 9:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes. He’d be mediocre on all those teams. He’s not a physical presence. He’s a product of the system. The same way I think Monta Ellis is. If you put Monta on a team like San Antonio, he’s not the same player. A youtube video will not change my opinion on that matter which is why I won’t waste the precious moments of my life looking at it. And no, the Heat are not championship caliber now, I don’t understand why that is even a question.

by adamcopes on Jun 29, 2008 11:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How sporting of you

To state pure conjecture as if it were fact.

If you’re interested in making a persuasive argument, you might try finding one example of a guy who flourished under Nellie but floundered elsewhere. Then again, you might consider searching for such to be “wasting the precious moments of [your] life.” I mean, why bother testing out your opinions against reality when it’s so much easier just to spout them with authority?

Sign ^^^^ !!!

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 29, 2008 12:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m glad you understand where I’m coming from

by adamcopes on Jun 29, 2008 6:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually, I do

I think this is a good diary topic, and you laid our arguments well, initially. I just think said arguments would go down a lot easier if you didn’t state them in absolutes:

“[Biedrins would] be mediocre on all those teams.”
“He’s a product of the system”
“The season is too grueling, and too exhausting to run that kind of system all the way through the playoffs to a title.”

None of these is a fact. If you throw in an occasional “mostly” or “probably” or “I suspect” it makes it clearer to your audience that you’re speaking hypothetically.

Sign ^^^^ !!!

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2008 4:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Monta is one of the most unstoppable guys in the league with an unstoppable first step, and a pull up midrange jumper. with tools like that he can play anywhere. Get your facts straight son, and GTFO.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 5:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No -he’d not be mediocre on all those teams -trade AB 4 Chandler and you will make Hornets stronger but Warriors will lose a lot of defense
yes he is a “product of the system” if you mean that he is product of Nellie’s talent to find perfect role for any player -but it doesn’t means that he would became mediocre in Nets system

Heat is just great example of team what gets “dominant big man” and after that title and after that… 15-67 record

build a team & destroy the roof

by Lat We N Trash on Jun 30, 2008 9:50 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I really coun’t follow you b/c your grammar gave me a headache. Even though this isn’t a classroom, at least try to follow the rules of English so the rest of us can try to understand your argument.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 5:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oops, for some reason the post went to you instead of the guy before, sorry.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 5:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

FYI

I’ve lost track of who (er, whom) you’re addressing, but a couple of things you may or may not be aware of:

1. I’m pretty sure Lat We N Trash lives in Latvia, where, last I checked, the native language wasn’t English. I think there are a bunch of non-American regulars on this site. Remember, the first w in www stands for “World.”

2. I’m pretty sure Skeptic is a good deal older than me (40!), which I’m guessing means he’s older than you. If you stick around here, you’ll learn to appreciate his unique and irreverent perspective (most of the time, anyway). He got swept up in a raid by the Purity Police a few months ago, but now he’s off the terrorist list and back in the good graces of Big Brother… so, try to play nice. ;-)

Sign ^^^^ !!!

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2008 5:18 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

one example of a guy who flourished under Nellie but floundered elsewhere.?

If there aren’t many then that must mean Nellie is worse than the average coach? For instance did Dunmurphy improve of get worse at the Pacers?

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 29, 2008 2:17 PM PDT   0 recs

Murphy sure is still sucky. While, Dunleavy mostly sucked because of dumb fans like yourself who booed the poor guy, sucking away all his confidence.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 5:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nellieball could win a title with...

luxury tax lineup…meaning Nellieball will not win a championship….but if Cohan could open up his heart and his pocket our winning lineup would be:

PG: Baron Davis (17) , Earl Watson/Chris Duhon (6), C.J. Watson (1)
SG: Monta Ellis (11) , Kelenna Azubuike (3), Marco Belinelli (1)
SF: Stephen Jackson (7), Mikael Pietrus (4) , Anthony Randolph (2)
PF: Elton Brand (15), Ron Arteezy (6), Brandan Wright (2)
C: Andris Biedrins (9), Al Harrington, (9)Richard Hendrix (750k)

It’d require Elton Brand and Ron Artest to opt out and sign here via FA….all the numbers are just rough figures but roughly $93mm roster. I think it’s a guaranteed NBA finals appearance with a solid 10 man rotation.

I’ve made it happen on 2k7. And 2k8. And I’ll make it happen on 2k9. Screw you Cohan.

by phiLthyphiL on Jun 29, 2008 3:28 PM PDT   0 recs

for that to work

we need to trade Action Jacksn . There is need for us to have both Ron Ron and Action Jackson. and well we could get a back up good center with Brandan Wright.

by warriorfan4life on Jun 29, 2008 8:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn't mind trading Cap'n...

but on the other hand….I don’t know about you, but I’d rather have Cap’n rather than Arteezy.

Can’t wait for 2k9. =)

by phiLthyphiL on Jun 29, 2008 8:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

nellieball + monta and Biedrins

I have to take issue with adamcopes assessement of Monta. He’s not effective just bc of Nellie’s system. It’s bc his skill, speed, and athleticism make him one of the few players who is pretty much unguardable. he can get to the rim and finish and he would be a 20 point scorer for any team in the league. Biedrins is not really a classic Nellie-system player he’s just the best center we had to work with. He’s not great just decent and he would be decent on any team and wouldn’t start on teams with better centers just as he wouldn’t start here if we had a dominant center. Pheonix got bounced by Spurs in 07 bc the league suspended their best big man and in 08 bc they got old and weren’t that good. That said, Adam poses 2 legit questions: 1) can you win championships with run and gun style? and 2) Do you need a dominant big man to win? Answer to first question: yes, probably. Other great teams have proved it, just not recently. Obviously you need to have better half-court offense and defense than Ws currently have. I don’t buy that teams get worn down just by virtue of playing uptempo for 82 game season. Jack and Baron definitely looked done at the end but that could be bc of Nellie’s reluctance to use his bench. Answer to second question- depends what you mean by dominant and also who else you have on your team. Bulls never had anything close to dominant big man, more recently Pistons won with Wallace and Wallace neither of whom is a superstar but one was great option in halfcourt offense while the other had no offensive game but played like a maniac on D. Please, no Artest.

by gsfool on Jun 29, 2008 3:46 PM PDT   0 recs

Please, no Artest.

“Pistons won with Wallace and Wallace neither of whom is a superstar but one was great option in halfcourt offense while the other had no offensive game but played like a maniac on D. Please, no Artest.”
Ronron is a combination of the best skills of the two wallaces. I’d love to add him to the dubs, there’s few better defenders when he’s motivated. I’d rather have artest than beli-nelly, harrington, dris or even montay. Of course the Kings wouldn’t want us to get him.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 29, 2008 10:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m pretty sure if we sent them that package you just mentioned we could get ourselves Artest maybe two.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 10:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

that package

Not all of them, :>) just one or possibly two and some other players to balance the deal.
Out of all the players we have now plus Artest, Ronron would come in 3rd behind Baron and Jackson on my depth chart.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 29, 2008 11:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A few things

Nellie ball can work. We need to play team defense though. If we could find one guy as a centerpice(samual dalembert anyone) to petrol the team, we could do pretty well. Baron can create lots of trouble on d, stack jax is a top 10 perimeter defender, monta just needs to work on rotation during picks and screens, and guys like buike show great D potential.
We could buckkle down and start to lockdown. Also, if we get more depth we’ll win, it’s that simple.

According to the comminsioner of the nfl, 104 people retired last year. 7 due to age, and the rest because of Patrick Willis

by montasmob69 on Jun 29, 2008 10:09 PM PDT   0 recs

Who needs Dalembert when we could just bulk up Wright and pray for the best.

by joestar on Jun 29, 2008 10:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It depends...

with our roster now, now way Nellie ball would win us a chanmpionship. But i do believe we are just 1 player away from winning it. Though it may be a strech idea, but Marion and a soild backu PG/ solid bench is the key to winning the gold.

by Spee-D on Jun 30, 2008 7:53 AM PDT   0 recs

It all boils down to talent

It’s not Nellieball, or defense wins championships, it’s the combination offense and defense with the requisite talent to perform at a championship level. Nellieball hasn’t worked because he’s been fighting losing battles his entire coaching career.
In Milwaukee he started the year after they traded Kareem and he had to contend with Larry Bird, McHale, Moses Malone, Dr. J, Magic, Kareem, etc. the entire time. He made the ECF his final year there and lost to the 67 win Celtics.
Then came to Oakland where he had a halfway legit team, but oh yeah, MJ was winning every year.
Then he went to Dallas to a perennial losing franchise and picked up Dirk and Nash, but couldn’t get over the hump against the Kobe/Shaq Fakers. Now he’s restarting the Warriors franchise.

So, yeah. It’s not exactly Nellieball, it’s the lack of talent, IMO.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2008 3:24 PM PDT   0 recs

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