RECAP: The Start of Free Agency
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 9:41 AM PDT
147 comments
First off, props to the in depth fan posts that the community has been writing. It's been keeping the site going while us admins have been crazy busy with work, school, and sometimes both. I can barely keep up with everything that's happening but thanks to you guys, I can get my dose of Warriors info right here. So let me get this recap goin and apologies for some who might find this redundant but I'm going to write it anyways.
If nothing else, this offseason has turned out to be the exact opposite of what I thought it was going to be. After the Randolph and Hendrix draft picks, I figured this would be a pretty boring offseason - Baron doesn't opt out, resign Monta and Beans. Like high school girls, there seems to be a new rumor daily.
I'll be honest, I'm not at all happy with what Mullin has let happen to his team so far: Baron opts out and leaves, Maggette signs, Turiaf signs though Lakers can match, Harrington rumors, and Monta moving to the point.
Some thoughts after the jump...
Fire Mullin?
In terms of basketball and putting a winning team out there, it's debatable whether or not I'd keep him. I'd probably get rid of him. But he's really taking this entertainment business to the extreme. Even in the offseason he keeps Warrior fans on edge. Last year was the KG sweepstakes and this year we've got all sorts of drama. Taking out all basketball decisions, Mullin gets an A+ for keeping Warrior fans on the edge of their seats in what was thought to be a boring offseason. Entertainment at its best! Okay back to reality...
Karma is a ...!
All I gotta say is that what goes around, comes around. First, Mullin tells everyone that he is NOT trading Jason Richardson. Yay, we keep the playoff core together. Ooops. By the end of June, JRich was gone. People start to forget about it (though Atma likes to remind us all the time). So what happens next?
Baron tells everyone that he's not opting out and that he wants to be a Golden State Warrior. Oops. Nearly a year after Mullin told his lie, Baron pulls a Mullin - tells the media one thing and then does the exact opposite.
Oh but Baron got his too with Elton Brand leaving him high and dry. "Baron come to LA and we'll team up and take the West". Oops. After the Clips did everything Brand asked for he bolts for a little more money and a chance to play in the East.
All I can say is, what goes around, comes around. Elton look out. If everything works out as it seems to be, Iggy will be leaving that team for the Clippers.
Free Agency
Now to the recent signings, both of which I hate.
1) Corey Maggette: 5 years, $50 million
He's a very nice scorer and can get to the line better than any of the current Warriors. He'll fit in offensively, but he plays, at best, average defense. His body looks strong enough to grab more rebounds than he actually does. He better pick up that rebounding average to play on this team. I really like the signing at 6 or 7 million per season, but at $10 million per? I'll pass. Let him go back to the Clips or sign with a contender for the mid-level.
Oh and did I mention he's injury prone? He's never played a full season. The most games he's played was 77 and that was his rookie year in Orlando. So let me get this straight, Mullin doesn't want to extend Baron for 5 years because he's injury prone, but will sign Maggette for 5 years at $3 million less per year than Baron?
Let's not forget how Baron CARRIES this team. That's certainly worth $3 million more per year. Without a playmaker, I'm afraid of what will happen.
2) Ronny Turiaf: 4 years, $16 million
Way to sign someone who doesn't fit. Yay. Hopefully the Lakers match. I really want a backup center who can't play at the same time as Biedrins or Wright. None of those guys has the offensive game to complement the other.
If the Warriors were going to lock up money in a restricted free agent, there's some high energy guy in Houston I would have liked, Carl Landry.
3) Baron Davis leaves for 5 years, $65 million
Like I said in the Maggette portion, Baron is worth $13 per year for 5 years if Maggette is worth $10 per year for 5 years. If we're just going to throw money around, let's at least throw it at a star. So from my rudimentary mathematical skills, here's what I get. Maggette + Turiaf for 4 years on average will be $14 million per year and then an extra Maggette year at $10 million more. I know the Maggette number will not start at $10 and will increase each year, but whatever it's close enough for comparisons sake. Baron Davis for 5 years will cost $13 million per year. Mullin and co are telling me that Maggette and Turiaf are worth more than Baron? Hell no. I'm sorry that doesn't fly with me. If you were to offer me Baron Davis and $1 million for Maggette and Turiaf in a trade, I would jumping for joy.
So unless, these are stepping stones to a future bigger move, I'm not looking forward to this season. We just added a bunch of salary and we're in worse shape than we were last season. Unless Mullin has a grand scheme that we're not all privy to, color me skeptical and a disappointed Warrior fan.
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naw
my only agreement with you is about Turiaf. otherwise, mullins been doin a great job these last few seasons once he realized goofy tall white guys (dunmurphy) werent too good at basketball. maggette is a player that will thrive under nelson’s system, not to mention we would have never signed him unless baron had left, in regards to your comments about signing an injury prone player.
Finally, you call yourself a warriors fan but yet your not looking forward to this season?
by 3Kings650 on Jul 10, 2008 9:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
asdf
sounds like hes questioning your fanhood.
ELEVATION SENSATON
by the noTORious TOR on Jul 10, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points...
But I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. I believe Baron would want more money to play in the Bay rather than LA. He WANTS to play in L.A. more than in Oakland. I think he kinda made his mind up that he wanted to leave. Like you said, he said one thing but did the other just like Mullin did. If anything, he would have opted for his last year of the contract and wouldn’t have taken any extension. To me it was either this year or next year and out.
What’s wrong with Maggette? He was the best free agent we could REALISTICALLY go after. He’s a better version of Kelenna and has got a knack for scoring which is the only thing you really need to be able do on this team with Nelson. I’m happy with 75 games from him, as long as all those games are productive.
Lastly, I agree that Turiaf was a horrible move and I’m worried they may not give Hendrix a chance because they seem to be similiar players. I’m not writing Mullin off though. The offseason ain’t over.
by Captain Jack on Jul 10, 2008 10:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A better version of Kelenna?
Maggette does not play D, is not a good part of an overall offense (passing ability/desire), and we can debate his 3 point % all day long.
He’s a solid natural scorer and good at getting to the line, but I’d rather save the money for another offseason than kill the flexibility on a mediocre player with a poor attitude who plays the easiest position to get a player for, especially in an uptempo system.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggette does not play D, is not a good part of an overall offense (passing ability/desire), and we can debate his 3 point % all day long.
Not gonna argue the point on his defense. I certainly don’t think he’ll be the worst defender on this team, and I think our team D will be better due to this signing, just because it allows us to put Jack in the backcourt, but Maggette himself is not a defensive asset.
As to the “passing ability/desire” category… he scores efficiently. Efficient scorers are a healthy part of an overall offense. He’s not a great passer, but what he does works… he’s a better offensive player than J-Rich, for instance.
Three-point shooting? He shot for a better percentage behind the arc last year than any Warrior, and he took less than 40% as many threes as Baron. That’s a positive. You don’t have to think Maggette’s the best three-point shooter on our team going forward, but to pretend that’s a negative in his game is bizarre.
The desire/attitude stuff is a valid concern, I guess, but 1) the guy’s been playing for a coach who doesn’t value what he brings to the table, and 2) let’s not pretend like those weren’t potential issues with Baron.
Maggette’s not a home-run signing, but home-run signings weren’t out there this year… hell, Baron himself wasn’t a home-run signing. It was a good signing. The team will be better for having Corey Maggette.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some good points
One that I’d like to push back on is Corey’s 3-point %
As a player who has 9 years of NBA experience, it’s only fair to go a little further back than last year.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/corey_maggette/career_stats.html
One thing that’s fascinating about Maggette is that he played near identical total minutes in 2006-2007, but he attempted 1/3 as many threes that year and shot 20%. Looking further than that, Maggs has years with both few and many 3PA, but his percentage is generally between 30 and 33%. That’s still very good, but it puts him in the same range as Dirk and Bogans rather than the slightly higher group he’d be with otherwise.
As for the comparisons with Baron, I also find it important that Baron is a PG and Maggette is a SF, with the positional values varying dramatically. PG’s and bigs are golden, and the Warriors don’t have a ton of money now to go after any in a meaningful way, regardless of what Monta does (though I hope for the best, of course)
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right… I don’t totally disagree on Maggette’s long-distance shooting. It seems like a little bit of crapshoot… the ‘06-’07 numbers are flat-out bizarre. Having said that, the fact that his best season was his most recent is somewhat encouraging, and moreso, the fact that he doesn’t hoist up six or seven a game is encouraging. He takes two or three a game. A guy like that isn’t going to gun you into a hole, the way Baron (or Jack) sometimes does.
Also agree on the positional stuff. PG > SF, Baron > Maggette; I agree wholeheartedly with both equations. However, a Baron/Monta backcourt is a flawed one. We just watched it for a year, and it was entertaining as hell… they also got absolutely torched a bunch of times by some middling players. There would be real negatives in committing to that backcourt long-term.
We’re now building around Monta. You can debate whether he’s the guy to build around (I think he is), but that’s clearly what we’re doing. If you see Monta as your best player, it makes sense to try to maximize the value of that guy, by testing him at the position where, if he can play it, he’ll have the most long-term success. If Monta can be a credible PG, Monta and a big, skilled 2 is a better backcourt than Baron and Monta: certainly better defensively, and potentially more efficient offensively.
It’s going to be tough going from watching one of the top PGs in the league to watch a guy try to master the position. It’ll be a bumpy ride, and like you, I’m not convinced that it’ll work. But Mullin and Nellie seem to think that it’s worth trying. If our goal is to win a championship down the road, I do too.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No arguments
I didn’t want Baron to re-sign. I wanted the money for someone else, ideally a PF to pair with Beans while rolling the dice on Shaun Livingston.
Monta will be a bumpy ride, but I still hold out hope that they’ll bring in a solid PG to be behind him so he can get some SG time too.
The other thing that kills me about the deal is that it squeezes out Kelenna’s minutes, and I love Buike. Besides Beans, he was my second favorite Warrior last year.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buike will get his run
Pietrus is gone, Barnes is gone, Buike is probably ahead of Belinelli at this point, he’ll still get his minutes.
I’m as sad as the next W’s fan that BD won’t be around next year, but let’s face it, he was gone after next year regardless, this just accelerated Mully’s post BD plan a year in advance. And I’m fine with Maggette @ 5/50, the dude will average 20ppg.
After Monta and AB’s contracts, we’d only have about $10 million to spend next year anyway. I’m not sure there are many better options in next years FA class @ $10/per better than Maggette. Maybe I’m wrong, I haven’t done a lot of research on next years class.
You may run like Hayes. but you hit like sh**!
by Orbit1099 on Jul 10, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed on buike
As wing-happy as Nellie is, there could still be a nice chunk of time left for the guy.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I agree with your agreement!
People complaining about our point guard situation are missing the, no pun intended, point; we’ll figure that out easily enough, whether this year or next. The real issue facing this team continues to be the lack of a top-tier big man. To our credit, we went hard after the one free agent who fit that description, but he went East. Josh Smith is fun and intriguing, but he’s not the big man that we need; Emeka Okafor is pretty good, but he’s not the big man that we need. There wasn’t a guy that we whiffed on… that guy’s just not out there.
I don’t think the signing of Maggette, or even the fact that we slightly overpaid for him, gets us farther away from getting that big man. I just don’t think a bad Warriors team would have a real shot at signing Boozer next summer, or Stoudemire in ‘10, even if those guys do bolt their teams. I also don’t see 17-65 coming from any version of this team, so I don’t think it’d come in the draft. If we’re going to get a guy like that, it’ll most likely be through a trade. And with or without Maggette, we have some interesting trade pieces.
This won’t be an elite team till we finally get a really good big guy to pair with Biedrins. But I don’t think that means we have to just do nothing until he comes. Maggette will help this team while we wait.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem is
Now the Warriors don’t have the financial flexibility to get any potential big man (in terms of the cap) for the foreseeable future. Spending $30m+ on the ME/AB/CM makes that essentially impossible. It could be a leveraged sign and trade but that’s about it.
The other possibility is the “Raef LaFrenz” idea, where you take a longer term deal to get more talent, sort of like the Jermaine O’Neal situation.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggette/Ellis/Beidrins Contracts
I think they come out to closer to $25 million in 08-09, which should give them room for another decent FA signing.
Maggette gets $8 million this year. I see Ellis signing for Kevin Martin’s amount, 5/$55 million, which would be $9 million this season. Beidrins? I think the Warriors have leverage with him. There’s no team with cap space who will go after him (Memphis isn’t spending any money / maybe Altanta if the Clippers get Josh Smith, but probably not).
So their competition for AB, will be mid-level exception contracts. The Warriors low-balled AB last season. I’m guessing he signs for 5/ $47.5 million.
I don’t find the Maggette signing a bad contract. He had an excellent year last season. I’m guessing the Warriors were in the process of signing him to something like 4 years $36 million. He was to make $8.3 million this season, before opting out, so something over that per season. But when the Clippers lost Brand, I’m speculating Mullin upped the offer, to make sure they topped the Clips.
I actually think Maggette was one of the most underrated players in the league, the last few years, because he played for the Clippers. Also, Dunleavy is a medicore coach, and sat him too much for non-entitiies like Quinton Ross. The caveat for Magettee is that he plays 65 games a season (just like Baron Davis) and he’ll be 29 (just like Baron Davis).
But Nellie is the perfect coach for him. Maggette will score over 20 PPG. Trading Harrington now makes sense and giving Maggette AH’s role on the team. If the Warriors can get another above average player and keep their youth, they should be OKAY. Not great, though.
by San Francisco Slim on Jul 10, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your #'s are a little off
Maggette is getting $8.5m (maybe 8.6) this year for his salary # to work, so 8% up from that is $9,288,000.
Beans for 5/$47.5? You must be joking. Plus, even if it was that unreasonably low figure, they’d still be combining for over $25m.
Furthermore, taking those three guys at that price plus Jackson at $10m plus Wright, Marco, Randolph, Hendrix, and next year’s R1 and R2 puts them at the brink even without Al Harrington.
I’d pay good money to see how that team has cap space in 2009 unless Jackson and Harrington are traded for almost exclusively expiring contracts.
Oh, and I’d love to see why the Warriors had to outbid the Clippers, who didn’t appear to have any interest in Maggette once he opted out. (Granted, some but not all of that can be attributed to Brand)
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't the inflation raise figure 10.5%?
I also heard Maggette’s contract is under $50 million, about $48-$49 million.
I don’t know, I just sense they are trying to lowball Biedrins.
Also, what sources do you have that say the Clippers wouldn’t sign Maggette? They were busy trying to sign Brand. I think the Warriors went after Maggette early, because of that. I agree that the Warriors spent more money than they had to, unless there was competition. The only competition could have been the Clippers. Or at least the Warriors perceived them as competition.
by San Francisco Slim on Jul 10, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
8% raise
I believe you are limited to an 8% raise when you are signing another teams free agent. Monta and AB will be able to get the 10% raise per yr.
"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy
by olympicmike on Jul 10, 2008 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Mike
Yes, I stand corrected. Maggette should make about $8.4 million this season.
by San Francisco Slim on Jul 10, 2008 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Though Maggette has been up and down in this regard, it is not uncommon for a player to rather substantially improve his three point shooting ability later in his career. Usually, what someone has done more recently is a better indicator than a career average. I say this with caution though, as Maggs has been up and down. On the positive, in the years he’s been terrible, it doesn’t look like he forces things and his shot attempts decline radically when his FG% declines. That’s good.
by jae on Jul 10, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe Baron would want more money to play in the Bay rather than LA. He WANTS to play in L.A. more than in Oakland. I think he kinda made his mind up that he wanted to leave. Like you said, he said one thing but did the other just like Mullin did. If anything, he would have opted for his last year of the contract and wouldn’t have taken any extension. To me it was either this year or next year and out.
EXACTLY. The Baron/Maggette equation presumes that Baron would’ve signed with us for the terms with which he signed with the Clippers.
Baron was set to make $18 million this year. He ended up taking $13 million per, despite coming off probably the most FA-friendly season of his career. That’s a big comedown.
He was okay with doing it for the Clips, but 1) that’s his hometown, and 2) he thought Brand would be in the picture, and that it’d be a team that was closer to a championship than we were. Those are two HUUUUGE factors. Baron signed for $65M over five because that’s what it took keep Brand there, not because he’d happily take that to play anywhere.
People are complaining that Mullin’s willing to throw all this money around, just not at Baron. Well, which is more likely—that Mullin’s a complete idiot who thinks Maggette’s about as good as this team’s MVP, or that $65 million wouldn’t have been nearly enough to keep Baron here? Like everyone else, I’m in the dark on what actually happened, but the latter seems much more likely to me.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we'll never know but...
Here’s what I think:
- Mullin just didn’t want Baron around for 5 more years
- Despite teaming with Brand and going back home, Baron would have taken the same money to stay here. He’s got Nellie (his perfect coach), the Bay Area fans vs Clipper fans (we’re the best right?), Jax/Harrington, and a 48 win team.
Let’s say you’re right that it would have cost Baron more money to stay here and he would rather play with Brand and in his hometown. Fine he leaves for LA. That still doesn’t excuse giving Maggette $50 million. Does anyone think he’s worth that money?
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggette Comps
Everyone is overpaid to a certain degree…But I’d gladly overpay Maggs at 5/50 for the production he’ll give us than say Redd or Rashard Lewis who are making max $$.
At $10/per he’s making Rip Hamilton/Tayshaun money. Heck, Bobby Simmons is making $10/per.
You may run like Hayes. but you hit like sh**!
by Orbit1099 on Jul 10, 2008 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In terms of production, I’m not entirely convinced that Maggette’s not worth that amount… the fourth and fifth years, maybe not, but in this market, I don’t think $10 million per is unreasonable for his services. Where I agree with you is that nobody else was going to pay him that much, so even if he’s worth $50 mil (debatable), we still probably should’ve been able to get away with paying him less. $40 million, whether for four years or five, would’ve been dandy… this certainly wasn’t Rashard Lewis-level bad, but it was an overpay.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
We overpaid and were going to have to overpay to get him. But the amount of extra money we gave him? That’s what bothers me. At $40 for 5, I’d be okay with that. Throwing in an extra $10 hopefully doesn’t cost us down the line. And even though he’s getting $8.5 or so this year, that’s going to escalate each year as he gets older. Not good.
In terms of basketball skills though, I really like Maggette and he fits on the team. He’s a type of offensive scorer that the Warriors just don’t have so it’s a nice mix between Monta and Maggette. I like him on the team, just not at the cost.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed completely
Maggette is a terrible complement to what the Warriors have, and spending money on the lowest-value position on the floor (with the most viable alternatives) is exactly the way to stay irrelevant.
I’m petrified the Warriors are going into what I’ve called “Sixerland” for years- just good enough to narrowly miss the playoffs and not get an impact player in the draft (too low a pick, though Mullin would screw that up probably too) and too much money tied up in other players to sign a free agent.
Assuming Monta and Beans are back in the fold, the Warriors will have somewhere near $33.5m committed for those three players ($10.3m for Maggs, $23.5 for ME/AB with the 10% raises). So a team without a PG or PF only has around $30m to have the rest of a team.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 10:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
asdf
sounds like he’s questioning your fanhood.
ELEVATION SENSATON
by the noTORious TOR on Jul 10, 2008 10:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why can't Turiaf play with Beans/Wright?
I don’t see why we couldn’t play Turiaf with Beans/Wright….I’ve had to suffer through way too many Lakers games thanks to my husband and Turiaf is the only one in gold and purple that I liked….Sure he’s no offensive beast but he has way more of a jumper than Beans (don’t really know about Wright yet) and can hit it with some consistency.
Personally, I think the Warriors really need someone like Turiaf coming off the bench…pure energy & focus on defense and rebounding, not going to worry about his points or minutes, a good team player who will always give 110%...plus like I said, he does have a relatively consisten jumpshot
by the wingless one on Jul 10, 2008 10:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
IF the Lakers don’t match for Turiaf (and reports are totally mixed as to their leanings) Turiaf will come here with what is really a low minute backup salary (yes, $4/year is backup salary in the NBA) and I wouldn’t expect him to play much more than that. Figure 10 to 20 minutes a game depending on situations. He does appear to have some range on his jumper for a PF/C, so I can see him paired with Biedrins OR Wright for short stretches to go big without getting in their “close to the basket high percentage scrap points” way. He’s an above average passer for a big too, one who doesn’t turn the ball over much, and this speaks of a possibility that he can set up in high post to either take the jumper, or look for the open man in (Wright or Andris) or out on the wing.
Best thing I’ve heard about him is that it’s annoying to play against him. For 10 minutes a night, that can be helpful.
Seriously, I wonder what people actually expect they’re gonna get that’s better at that price that can be acquired at that price. Fantasies of matchable RFAs are fantasies.
by jae on Jul 10, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing with Beans and Wright
The reason I don’t think he’ll play well with Beans and Wright is because neither Beans, Wright, nor Turiaf are scorers. Nellie wants at least 4 scorers on the floor. Just because Turiaf can shoot 50% and hit an open jumper every now and then doesn’t mean he’s going to complement the rest of the squad. If he’s going to play at the same time as Wright or Beans, he’s going to be taking more shots than he’s done before. And if you look at his FG% as he took more shots, it’s gone way down (nearly 7%).
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
YAH BUT...
even if TURIAF played at the same time as BEANS or WRIGHT, what’s wrong w/ that? Having MONTA, MAGGS and JAX isn’t enough offense/scoring?
I know NELLIE wants to outscore opponents, but that’s because he’s never really had a shutdown defender! I’m not saying TURIAF is one, but he definitely brings a defensive presence to the team! And don’t get me wrong, I actually HAAAAATE TURIAF. He seems arrogant and acts like a bully, but as JAE mentioned, he would be probably be annoying to play against! Reminds me kind of like RODMAN (not skill-wise). You hated him as a person or as an opponent, but that’s what made him valuable to your team. He got into the opponents’ heads!
by scottiepimppen on Jul 10, 2008 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s quite possibly true about Nellie’s lineups. It does seem like Nellie has a tendency to go overboard on scoring at the expense of defense. I’m not certain I’d write off Wright as a scorer so quickly though. He’s immensely talented and I’d not be at all surprised to see him assert himself more on offense this year.
I would also add that Nellie’s real identifying characteristic as a coach is that he tries to maximize what he has. He’s also one of the few coaches in the league for whom there’s an identifiable positive effect on someone’s statistics. Guys really do tend to play better for him. It’s been true for quite some time.
by jae on Jul 10, 2008 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wright
Hey if you’re right about Wright, I’ll be pleasantly surprised. He’s immensely talented but I just don’t see him becoming a scorer. He’ll get putbacks, alleyoops, quick floaters, but he doesn’t look like he’ll be a guy who you can dump the ball into or give to 15 feet out on the perimeter and say score.
I also agree that Nellie gets the most out of his guys, but Turiaf doesn’t seem to have the skill set to complement Beans and Wright in Nellie’s system. Two non-scorers on the floor at the same time? Unless Nellie changes his philosophy it’s not going to work.
Hopefully I’m wrong.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Turiaf as backup center
Didn’t read all the comments I’m replying to but I doubt both Beans & Wright will be playing at the same time as Turiaf because he’s slotted to be Bean’s backup at center.
by gunwing54 on Jul 10, 2008 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mullie's started to speak about recent events...
His comments make it sound like he’s been anticipating all of these moves and they have been very deliberately thought out and planned. I wonder. Initially it all seems like knee-jerk reactions to offset the embarrassment of losing Baron. It would be interesting to see if he had any preliminary talks with Areanes and Brand’s agents before he started to throw out all of those high priced bids.
The big test will be if and when he signs AB and Monte. He’s been talking about it, but if they are the centerpieces of the franchise, you’d think they would be closer to doing the deal.
by candlestickkid on Jul 10, 2008 10:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If they’re still on the free agent/trade market, they do not want to sign these guys yet because when they do, their cap holds get replaced with real dollars and we will likely lose the remaining cap flexibility. Turiaf ain’t a done deal and they still have a bit of room so they could still be shopping.
We don’t know how close they are to getting a deal done. One thing that seems clear since Nelson arrived is that Mullin doesn’t make his plans and actions freely available to the media until something is already agreed upon. Rushing things doesn’t seem to serve a purpose, save to silence anxious fans who are looking for reasons to criticize things.
by jae on Jul 10, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've found my thread.
Finally, a group that does not blindly follow Mullin. dprodigy19 is right, we’ve always been not good enough for the playoffs, but not bad enough for a high pick. Warriors should just bite the bullet and let Wright and Bellinelli start and if we end up with 15 wins next season, so be it. By then we’d really know if this young corp has a chance in hell to run with the big boys in the west. On top of that, we’d have a high pick and a ton of money for next year’s crop of free agents. That’s how you rebuild a team (Miami). The past 10 off-seasons have pretty much played out the same way going back to St. Jean. Paying too much for mediocre free agents, rationalizing to themselves that there might be some sort of hidden value yet to be unlocked within them (Caffey for $35 million among others, and pretty much every Mullin signing). It didn’t help that Mullin was groomed by St. Jean in this kind of environment. Panicky and hair-triggered. The Warriors have no history in landing superstar players through free agency so any expectations regarding next year’s crop with Mullin at the helm is somewhat of a pipedream. Twardzik deserves just as much blame for his tenure, but 10 years should have been plenty of time to right this ship. Let’s hope that when Nellie leaves, the team doesn’t implode.
by damnit on Jul 10, 2008 11:10 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
couple things
1) They’ve made some good moves, but the Heat are the reigning worst team in basketball… let’s not call them “rebuilt” just yet. We were one of the very worst teams in the league several times in the Dark Era; we should know it’s not a given that teams like that can easily improve. Besides, fuck the Heat and their tanking. I’m not down with anything like that.
2) If we re-signed Beans, Monta and ‘Buike, and made no other moves, yes, we’d have cap space next year. We wouldn’t have the most cap space, or anything like it. What’s our plan? There are a lot of great players that could become unrestricted, but most won’t. Essentially we’d be in the same position a year from now: losing out on the bidding for a guy like Boozer to a team with more to offer (more money, better team, more attractive place to play), or we’d be overpaying for Drew Gooden or some shit.
Once Monta and Beans are resigned, we’re just not going to be a top-tier free agency player. You can say we could just trade away Harrington and Jack for even more space, but that’s not going to happen… almost every team, like us, wants to get rid of guys like that for space. This is really the only time we’ll be able to spend. I wish we’d have netted something a little sexier than Maggette and Turiaf (though to be fair the summer’s far from over), but I certainly don’t think it’s a disaster. Those guys will help our basketball team.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 11:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
us admins have been crazy busy with work, school, and sometimes both
Glad to hear you guys are busy, never can tell in this economy . Keep the focus on your goals , this Warriors team stuff will sort it’s self out despite all our input, sorta like national politics, can’t live with it but can’t live without it!
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 10, 2008 11:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I almost completely agree with FJ...
The Maggette signing was horrible at best. He was slated to make $7 mil next season… and other teams were offering him the full MLE ( $5.5 mil). Now I agree that Maggette did have a career year last year, albeit it was on a injury prone Clipper team where he himself did not play a complete season. The second best scorer they had was Kaman 15 ppg, and he didn’t play a full season. The point I’m trying to get at is his stats were semi inflated last season because he was on a predominatly weak team. I would have gladly accepted this signing had it been at 3 years $26 mil (a little more than $8 mil/yr)... or even 5 years $40 mil ($8 mil/yr)... but to sign him at that price tag is definately jumping the gun and screams “DESPERATION” on the part of Mullin & Co. Now if you’re going to throw $10 mil a year on someone, could it at least be someone who has played a full season in his career or someone with a little more passing ability (i.e. a Josh Childress or an Iguodala… well throw in a couple mil more for Iguodala).
Now picture this: If Maggette received $10 mil/yr… what do you think Beans & Monta will want? I would assume that Monta is at least 3 times better than Maggette…. so this signing may be more of a shot in the foot than anything. I’ll assume that Monta will ask for, and receive more than Maggette with Andris following suit. Is this for certain? Of course not… but these players and their agents are definately not dumb! They’ll see their place in the pecking order and want to get paid accordingly.
Where I don’t agree with FJ is the Turiaf signing… I don’t mind it that much. $4 mil is definately a decent amount. I don’t fully believe that Turiaf is worth that much… but the Warriors had to sign him to something they thought the Lakers wouldn’t have matched. Turiaf is a very high energy defender and at the same time an underrated smart player on the offensive end. If he does meet expectations, or exceed them, then his signing would be a steal. I know we have Richard Hendrix, who is a similar player, but Turiaf is NBA proven.
As for Harrington… I don’t really want to see him leave. If he’s asking for a trade, don’t just give him away for some scrubs. We can get higher value for him next season as an expiring contract over this season… but many teams in the east are still looking for a PF (and Harrington fits that mold). If we can get a PG as well as an expiring, then I’m all for it. Just don’t make it a “Harrington for Jaric” trade where we’ll be worse off with a terrible contract. Unfortuantely… I can see a move like that happening because after all… we are the Warriors.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 12:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
stupid blurry first paragraph
The Maggette signing was horrible at best. He was slated to make $7 mil next season… and other teams were offering him the full MLE ( $5.5 mil). Now I agree that Maggette did have a career year last year, albeit it was on a injury prone Clipper team where he himself did not play a full season. Now think about this, the second leading scorer was Kaman at 15 ppg… and then another drop off after that. The point I’m getting at is his numbers were slightly inflated last season. To sign him at $10 mil is ridiculous to say the least, when he probably could have been had at $8 mil/year. I would have been happier with a 3 year/ $26 mil contract or even a 5 year/$40 mil contract. But for a guy who has been injury prone, he isn’t worth $50 million dollars.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check out what Maggette’s done over his career. It’s pretty consistent, especially when you control for minutes played. Rebounds were actually down last year. I’m not sure it’s a career year. It’s more or less inside the normal variation we’ve seen from Maggette since he came into the league.
Injury prone? Yeah, but save one year, he’s available more often than not. He appears on average to be good for somewhere around 70 games. Actually, it looks like you can count on him missing about a dozen games, but it’s only been once that he’s missed many more.
I’d be happier with 3/$26 too. We don’t know if that would have gotten things done though.
Good signing, not a great one, but should, even at the salary, make the team better than the realistic other options.
by jae on Jul 10, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about its effect on the resigning of Monta & Beans?
How do you think it will affect those talks. Now you have to agree that Monta is worth more to this team than Maggette does. How will that translate in negotiations?
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking over Maggette's career....
He has missed between over 12 games/season 5 times… peaking at 75 games last season (after going for 77 in his rookie season). With the 32 game season removed from the equation, he does average about 12 DMP – Injuries per season. That’s still a health risk given his large contract. As far as the fluctuation of his productivity, he has been consistent, averaging about 19 ppg and 5.5 rpg during the last few seasons… it’s his overall game that I’m worried about, as he is essentially a one on one type of player who is not affiliated with a high ball movement team like the Warriors. I’m concerned about his ability to move the ball around while maintaining his effectiveness on the boards.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're wong on all counts.
Fire Mullin?
Who traded Dale Davis for Baron Davis?
Who traded Dunleavy & Murphy for Jackson & Harrington?
Who drafted Andris Biedrins & Monta Ellis?
Who dumped a terrible JRich contract for a potential star in BWright?
Think again.
Maggette was a bad signing at $10M/year?
Maggette is better than JRich, and will be making $3M/year less. Pietrus signed for $6M/year, Jason Terry makes $10M/year, Jamal Crawford makes $10M/year. I don’t think you understand the NBA payscale.
You’re sad that we didn’t pay Baron $13M/year for 5 YEARS!?
I agree that he’s worth at least $13M/year, but NOT for 5 years. That is crazy talk. You really think he won’t blow his twice surgically repaired knee out? Baron has two bad knees, a bad back, and a TERRIBLE work ethic. I’d be surprised if he makes it 3 more years (he’ll be 32). Sure Maggette will miss about 10g/year due to little injuries here and there (because he’s constantly smashing to the hoop and getting to the line), but he’s a much better bet to be a good player in 4-5 years.
Ronny Turiaf doesn’t fit?
Do you even watch basketball? Turiaf is a perfect fit for this team. He is a banger, and a big time energy player with some pretty good speed, athleticism, and length. He can rebound, block shots, and pass pretty well too (had about 10 games with 5+ assists).
I’ve heard so much dumping on all the Warrior moves thusfar, and I really don’t understand it. Guess you haven’t been a warrior fan or watching basketball as long as I have, but I know what a bad team looks like, and frankly this still looks like a borderline playoff team. Mully is doing a great job!
by warriordrp on Jul 10, 2008 12:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
well...
I think we did overpay a bit for Maggette… comparing his contract to some actively bad contracts doesn’t mean that we didn’t. It’s far from the worst contract in the league, but we overpaid… I just don’t buy that we needed to give him five years and $10M per.
I agree with all your other points, though… a 32-year-old Maggette’s a better bet than a 32-year-old Baron, and Mullin deserves a little more benefit of the doubt than he’s been getting. He’s done an overall good job for the last three years, and an absolutely spectacular job for the past eighteen months.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggette is not better than J-Rich
Whoa…. whoa…. whoa. Do you honestly think that Maggette is better than Jason Richardson? Let’s compare the career numbers side by side:
Richardson: 75 games per season, 19 PPG, 5.5 rebs, 3 apg, 1 spg, 2 to’s pg
Maggette: 65 games per season, 16 ppg, 5 rpg, 2 apg, less than 1 spg & 2 turnovers per game
Not only is Richardson more durable than his counterpart, but he scores more and is a better 3 pt shooter. Maggette excells at the ft line.
Ok ok… I get it. Last season?
Maggette: 70 games, 22 ppg, 5 boards, 2 apg, 1 spg & 3 to’s
Richardson: 82 games, 22 ppg, 5 boards, 3 apg, 1 spg & 2 to’s.
Very similar numbers, but Richardson still brought it for 12 more games and was more careful with the ball (1 to per game is a big difference). IMO, Maggette deserves to make less than $3 mil/yr than Richardson… infact he doesn’t deserve to come that close. $8 mil/yr would have been more adequate for a player of his caliber with his history of injury.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggette is not better, he's more efficient
The numbers don’t tell the entire story (don’t take this as a J-Rich bashing, I love the guy)...
Maggette took about 450 less shots than JR to average the same amount of points. I think JR fell in love with his jump shot which (up until last year) was inconsistent at best. I think Maggette adds some of the rebounding/toughness that we lacked last year from the guard spot.
5/50 is the going rate for swingmen who put up those numbers.
You may run like Hayes. but you hit like sh**!
by Orbit1099 on Jul 10, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Maggette will add some rebounding that we lacked last year from the guard spot...
But he will be taking over the SF spot. Now unfortunately, that means that our rebounding situation is going to be similar to last year. Baron averaged 5 boards per game… which is around Maggette’s average… and I’ll venture to say that both Monta & Jax hover around last year’s figures as well. That isn’t necessarily a boost, its more of a different look.
As for more efficient shooting, Maggette edged Richardson, shooting 45% for his career over 43.5% for Richardson. And Maggette is a better FT shooter. I just believe that Richardson is a better all around player than Maggette is. The numbers are fairly similar, but their style of play is vastly different.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Per game measures can be specious.
Per minute, Maggette scores more points and pulls down more rebounds. For his career, it’s taken Maggette 13.5 FG attempts to get 20 points. For Richardson’s career, it’s taken him 16.5 shot attempts to get 19 points. Hmmm. Fewer shots, more points. Even if you subtract a possible attempt for the turnover, Maggs is scoring more and providing two more shots for teammates to take. Think that his teammates always miss those shots? Since the average return of FG attempts is more than a point a shot, it’s real, real unlikely that those extra shots are meaningless. Maggette’s a more effective offensive weapon, a superior rebounders.
by jae on Jul 10, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saying Maggette is a superior rebounder is an overstatement...
Jae… look at the two guards side by side and their rebounding numbers are very close, even factoring in minutes played. Now I’m no expert in the use of PER, but if you aren’t getting those minutes per game, there’s a reason why you’re not earning those minutes. Now I do admit that Maggette does shoot at a more effective clip and is excellent at getting to the free throw line, but their overall games are vastly different. Without factoring in their contracts, if you had your pick between the two, who would you rather have on the Warriors?
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m unfortunately unable to look beyond their current salaries. But on pure productivity, if I can have both at the same price, it’s close. I’m a sucker for rebounds and high efficiency scoring. Given that I’ve seen Richardson play more often and know that he’s somewhat of a liability handling the ball, that he’s not a defensive stopper either, I’d give a slight edge to Maggette overall. At his best (when he came back from the injury a year ago) Richardson was better than Maggette had ever been. But Maggette has been more consistently good. The variance in his production is pretty low.
I do not believe that minutes are always “earned” and that because a player on one team gets 38 minutes he must somehow be more deserving than a player on a totally different team with different teammates and a different coach who “only” gets 36mpg.
by jae on Jul 10, 2008 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I wasn't referring to them...
I was referring to the overall PER system. PER systems heighten the perspective of a bench player’s ability to produce to a certain extent.
As for Maggette’s defense…. there is a reason why the Clippers played Quinton Ross heavy minutes vs. letting Maggette take a majority of it, and its because of his inability to play on the defensive end as well as Ross. Ball handling must also be a problem for Maggette, as he averaged about 3 to’s/game last season, and has been that way for a majority of his career. Its more or less a tomato vs tomahtoe type of discussion, but I’d respectfully say that I’d choose Richardson because of his ability to stretch the floor.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone who’s read here for not too long knows my general opinion of PER (Hollinger’s system) and wouldn’t ever expect me to defend it in any way. Do not confuse PER (all caps) with “per” as in “per minute” or “per game”.
I’m having a hard time following your “logic”. Are you still referencing Maggette with discussion of bench players?
by jae on Jul 11, 2008 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe a borderline playoff team in the East
To me, there’s no question that the Lakers, Spurs, Hornets, and Jazz are in Tier 1.
After them, it’s the Rockets, Suns, Mavs, Blazers, Nuggets, and Warriors. As such, the Warriors are in the 2nd tier of the conference, but they need to do well to move into it. Regardless, do we want a perpetual 7-8 seed?
And please don’t dump on critical people as not being real fans- they are in no way correlated. Just because someone disagrees with a move does not make them any more or less of a fan, just like how dissent and patriotism are unconnected.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all in favor of criticism...
When it’s warranted. I just don’t think all of this Maggette bashing and Baron lovefest is warranted. Baron Davis is supremely talented, but he is an underachiever. Look at how his production fell off at the end of the year when the Warriors really needed him. And Maggette is no All-Star, but people shouldn’t disregard a 22pt scorer who does so efficiently. I think with the improvement of Ellis, Biedrins, Wright, & Belinelli and the additions of Maggette and Turiaf, we’re quite possibly looking at a better team. People always overreact so i’m not really surprised.
Make no mistake, I’m not questioning anyone’s fan-hood. I really could care less about that. I’m just questioning their basketball knowledge, which seems severely lacking.
by warriordrp on Jul 10, 2008 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just as a clarification
I’m not a Baron supporter either- I wanted the Dubs to save the money for the right guy, and I think Maggette was far from that considering his position and who he is as a player.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
You can’t question someone’s basketball knowledge based on your opinion vs theirs. I disagree with you on Turiaf, but that doesn’t mean you know more than I do about basketball. It just means we have different opinions. There’s a big difference. And to throw in “Guess you haven’t been a warrior fan or watching basketball as long as I have” is pointless because it proves nothing. It’s ridiculous actually. You don’t know me, I don’t know you.
So look at it this way, the improvement of Ellis, Biedrins, Wright, and Belinelli were going to happen regardless of whether Maggette and Turiaf came over. I think Baron is a star and I believe you underestimate his impact on the game. As a point guard who can dish, score, and post up he was incredibly valuable. There’s nobody on this team who can consistently run this offense like Baron. And in clutch situations, I want the ball in his hands. Maggette is not a star, never will be. Can’t carry a team. Baron could.
His production at the end of the season was due to fatigue, not laziness. He’s playing 40+ minutes per night. With no adequate backup point guard he got worn down as the season went on. His production falling off at the end of the season could have been and was predicted by many on the site because he was playing way too many minutes.
As far as being a borderline playoff team? Who cares. I don’t want a borderline playoff team. Actually, I don’t even think this is a borderline playoff team. As currently constructed, I honestly don’t see next year’s team being better than this year’s team.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The future of this team as far as putting a championship contender on the floor is the development of Monta, Wright, and Randolph.
by Nellieball on Jul 10, 2008 12:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Fire Mullin? Are you Insane?
We would not even be having these discussions about signing Baron and competing for the playoffs IF IT WEREN’T for Mullin. You are a retard.
Lets see what Mullin has done since he took over for a team widely considered the Atlanta Hawks of the West for 10 years:
1. Traded Speedy Claxton and Dale Davis for Baron.
2. Drafted Beansy.
3. Drafted Monta in the 2nd Round.
4. Traded DunMurphy for Jacko and Al.
So imo, without Mullin we would still be mired in the perpetual putridty that plagued this team from 1995 until 2004.
Fire Mullin? You must be smoking, name a better GM this team has had since a Bush wasnt president. Thats right, you cant. Moron.
by getoffbd'sjock on Jul 10, 2008 12:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Want some?
RC Buford, Bryan Colangelo, Joe Dumars, Kevin O’Connor, Rod Thorn, Pat Riley/Randy Pfund, Ernie Grunfeld
Now you name some long-standing GM’s not named Elgin Baylor or Kevin McHale for your side of the list. Hell, count them and you still won’t get half of my list
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ernie Grunfeld?
Your calling him a good GM because of one trade?
by Nellieball on Jul 10, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He said a GM this team has had. Nevertheless, I’m confident that Mullin is better than Geoff Petrie, Otis Smith, Danny Ferry, Chris Wallace, McHale, and Baylor. Some might disagree, but I’d take Mullin over Bird, for sure.
I also completely disagree with the Miami duo and Grunfeld. The Heat guys have been moving backwards for a couple years now… I’m not gonna give them credit for eventually realizing they should take Beasley. Grunfeld had a good trade… since then he’s entirely hamstrung that team’s future for a core that isn’t appreciably better than ours, even post-Baron. I’d take Mullin over him ten times out of ten. I would put Pritchard up there, though. Stefanski looks to be better, as well.
Mullin is an average to slightly-above-average GM. The Maggette contract’s not a great one, but try to find another team that doesn’t have a contract on the books that’s significantly worse. Rashard Lewis is a similar player to Maggette, arguably no better than Maggette… he’s making over twice as much. Let’s try to keep some perspective here.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
for the hell of it
As I see it, these are currently the best-run organizations in the league:
1) San Antonio, Detroit, Philadelphia, Portland, Utah.
This is the next tier… some of these teams are excellent, but have had some luck (can’t-miss draft picks, desirable locations, friendly opposing GMs, etc) in aligning their rosters:
2) Los Angeles (Lakers), Boston, New Orleans, Phoenix, Houston.
Now let’s skip down a bit. These are poorly-run teams—some are decent due to one player, some could be better but have had bad luck, some are saving money to the point where it’s not clear what they’ll be when they stop:
5) Cleveland, Seattle, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Sacramento
And these are the worst-run teams in basketball.
6) Los Angeles (Clippers), Minnesota, Memphis, Charlotte, New York (for now).
That’s my top ten and bottom ten. We’re somewhere in the middle, with the Bulls, Mavs, Nuggets, Pacers, Heat, Nets, Magic, Raptors, and Wizards. And I happen to think we’re better-run than a number of them. The Bulls whiffed on adding a post player and blew a window in which they were contending… take a lottery ball away from them and they’re in worse shape than we are. The Pacers did a good job dumping O’Neal but got fleeced on Draft Night, and aren’t going anywhere fast. The Magic lucked into Dwight Howard, are capped out and, lest we forget, weren’t much better than us last year. The Wizards are an older, more capped-out version of us. The Nets are doing a fine job of preparing for the Lebron Sweepstakes, I guess, but I don’t know how much praise that’s worth.
The NBA is a pretty inefficiently-run league… almost every team overpays for guys and makes a lot of mistakes. There are a few GMs who don’t, and we’re not lucky enough to have one of them. Our guy is perfectly decent, though, and if anything, slightly closer to the top than the bottom.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a big difference between Grunfeld and Mullin
Mullin has had FIVE lottery picks in the last six years while Grunfeld has had one (sort of- the Jamison trade lost them the #5 pick)
The problem with being in the East is that even bad teams make the playoffs, so they didn’t get the opportunities to improve.
I’m not saying the Wizards have some sort of worldbeater in the GM chair, but he’s done better than Mullin with less chances.
The Jamison trade and the Caron for Kwame trade were great, and I like Blatche long-term.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mullin’s drafting has left a lot to be desired. Biedrins was very good. Monta was very good, though I tend to think that second rounders are largely luck.
Other than that, the returns haven’t been particularly useful. I’d like to have some marginal role players instead of the bench weights we’ve seen instead.
by jae on Jul 10, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
EDIT
A better GM that the Warriors have had?
Oh my god, he’s better than St. Jean! Let’s make him a goddamn statute!
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee
without Mullin, we wouldn’t have made the playoffs in 2007. Most success for the Warriors since, well, Mullin was playing on the Warriors with run TMC. I don’t think you(dprodigy19) would be happy with our GM until they give that position to you.
by Captain Jack on Jul 10, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
If you’re going to bring up Mullin’s resume, let’s list EVERYTHING he’s done, not just 4 things that fit your argument. I’ll write that up in an article for your reading pleasure sometime. But off the top of my head here are some of the things you missed:
- Paid DunMurphy those ridiculous contracts which forced him to trade them later
- Paid Foyle with a ridiculous contract
- Bought Foyle out instead of using him as an expiring contract in a future deal so that we could have an extra roster spot for Troy Hudson.
- Draft 1st round: POB, Diogu, and Belinelli (I don’t think he’s going to be any good)
- Draft 2nd round: Chris Taft, Stephane Lasme, Kosta Perovic
- Gave Kosta part of our midlevel exception to play a total of 40 minutes
And who cares that Mullin is the best GM since a Bush wasn’t president, that doesn’t make him any good, just better than really really bad GM’s. You tried to be clever, but what a dumb line.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let's just say....
Mullin is better than St. Jean and Twardzik so far, but not by much.
by damnit on Jul 10, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Foyle buyout was an AWESOME move… much better to waive him at 70 cents on the dollar than to have a useless roster spot for 2-3 years. The idea that a GM is bad because his secondround picks don’t always pan out is ridiculous - Mullin is, in fact, quite possibly the Second-Round GM of the Decade. We’re paying Kosta less than $2 million a year. It’s a pointless contract, but there are literally a hundred worse contracts in the league than that.
He’s made some draft mistakes (I kind of agree on Marco), and the DunMurphy contracts were horrible (though a blessing, as at least they forced us to dump those guys). But Mullin has been a pretty good GM overall, and not just compared to his predecessors.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great...
We did waive Foyle, but his salary was still on the books. The Kosta pick as well as the contract were horrendous at best, especially if he’s going to get bought out this season just to go back overseas. 2nd round picks didn’t pan out… just like the first rounders! Overall… he’s only brought us to the playoffs once and watch the team implode the rest of the years. He even brought in Montgomery… Mike Montgomery! Mullin is an average GM at best.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m saying he’s a slightly-above-average GM at best, so we’re not strongly disagreeing. But again, there’s no such thing as drafting the wrong guy with the 38th pick. Paying Kosta $3.5 million for two years was a mistake, but a tiny one, in the scheme of things.
Also, any discussion of Mullin’s drafting HAS to involve Biedrins and Monta, and to a lesser extent, Wright. Getting three players of that caliber in four years of drafting, where you never pick higher than eighth, is not a terrible haul. I’m not high on Belinelli, but there were almost no useful guys drafted after him… sure, I’d rather have Landry or Big Baby, but lots of teams passed on them. Mullin deserves about a C+ for his drafting, I’d say. Not great, but not enough to negate the good things he’s done elsewhere.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drafting wise... C+ is adequate..
Although I do love the Randolph pick as well as the Hendrix pick this past draft… so you can bump that up to a B- at best. I still like Belinelli, I love Wright, and Monta & Beans are automatic
In terms of moves as a GM, he is nowhere near above average. His moves were average at best with the crowning jewel being the rehiring of Nelson.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait wait wait
I didn’t say Mullin was bad because his 2nd round picks were bad. Please show me where I wrote that. I merely listed his other “accomplishments” in the draft other than Monta and Beans.
I’ll disagree on the Foyle point because expiring contracts are worth a lot. Theo Ratliff was one and so was Kwame Brown. Better to have a tradeable expiring contract than the 70 cents on the dollar cap restriction that can’t be moved.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
...but at the time we waived him, he had three years remaining. Three. That’s a lot of time to wait for a contract to turn useful… too much time, in Mully’s opinion, and (not that it matters) mine.
Also, Brandan Wright should be considered part of Mullin’s drafting history, should he not? It’s too early to tell if he’ll be great - too early with a lot of these guys, really - but his future looks awfully bright… he was a pretty good get, at eight.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You did not address my point
We would not be contending for the playoffs without Mullin. Can’t argue that one.
Also, the DunMurphy contracts and the draft pick of Diogu are moot since they turned into Jack/Al.
Foyle is also is moot. He is no longer hurting the cap.
And you still didnt address the fact that the team as currently constituted is due to Mullin’s shrewd moves and the picks of Monta and Beansy.
Of course he’s not perfect. No GM is. And if you were implying that I suggested he was perfect, you again are a retard. Read my post again. ” We would not even be having these discussions about signing Baron and competing for the playoffs IF IT WEREN’T for Mullin. “
And my real point is Fire Mullin is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on theis blog EVER. Not that all of his moves have worked. No one’s does. Just look at Dumars.
Your idiocy is really testing my patience with this blog. I’d be gone if it werent for Atma.
by getoffbd'sjock on Jul 10, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t argue that one.
The word of god?
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 10, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please write an article too.
Show where the team was after 2004 and where they have been and are going now that Mullin has taken over.
Explain the cap situation. Layout the horrible contracts he signed and then remedied. Talk about the fleecing of New Orleans for Baron. Write that he got an above-average center in the late lottery (which rarely happens).
And then talk about 2007 and how that never would have happened without Jack and Al.
Then talk about the 48 wins we had last year in the toughest conference in the history of the nba.
And how now we need to fire mullin because he wouldnt pay a 29 year old point guard with two bad knees who played one full season with us in a contract year no less, more than market value.
Please write that article. If it makes any sense, I’ll be the first one to jump on the Fire Mullin bandwagon with you.
by getoffbd'sjock on Jul 10, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will write an article
I’ll include all of that, thanks.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not contending for the playoffs without Mullin
How can you be so sure that we wouldn’t be contending without Mullin? If we didn’t have a GM, then yes we wouldn’t be contending. However what if we hired a better GM? I can’t speculate on what the Warriors would have had if Mullin wasn’t GM for the past few years. All I can say is that I believe the bad outweighs the good. We barely made the playoffs last year. Missed the playoffs this year. The Western Conference is only going to get more difficult this year and our team is worse off.
You cannot tell me that signing DunMurphy and drafting Diogu is moot because it turned into Jack and Al. He made 3 mistakes and then had to make up for it. Ridiculous.
The Foyle contract is still counting against the cap.
And Atma agrees with me. haha.
Thanks for playing buddy but we’ll have to disagree and I choose not to respond to your insults on my intelligence.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Silence is acquiscence. Later dudes. You guys just lost a reader.
by getoffbd'sjock on Jul 10, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great!
Don’t let the door hit you on your way out.
My thoughts in summary:- Mullin’s draft record as of today is pretty poor… C- poor
- I would’ve never hired Mullin (mentored by Gary St. Jean?)
- Mullin, Rowell, and Cohan are clueless
- I would fire Mullin and Rowell right now. Actually I would’ve fired them years ago.
- The Warriors are a joke organization and that starts from the top
- This team ain’t winning 48 next season
- I’m not looking forward to next season right now
And finally: Fantasy Junkie, Adam, Hash, R Dizzle, Tony.psd,Yaobuttaming, and I could run a better Warriors operation from top to bottom than Mullin, Rowell, and Cohan. They’re all unqualified to be steering the ship of an NBA franchise in a top sports market.
It’s frustrating when your favorite team in your favorite locale has been run so poorly for so long.
by Atma Brother ONE on Jul 10, 2008 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Fuzzy too
Oooh can’t forget my boy DJ Fuzzy Logic. He’d make sure the players we signed and drafted had good handles. Plus he’d ensure the Warrior Girls were top notch!
by Atma Brother ONE on Jul 10, 2008 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not ALL of his moves have worked?
Oh come the hell on. I’m more than willing to admit that he has made some good moves (the Indy and Baron trades being the biggest), but your rationale is complete bullshit.
The Warriors have had a bevvy of top picks and have had space at various times, and have wasted a vast majority of it.
Yes, drafting Monta and Beans were great, but that summer also had the signing of Fisher and Foyle which are still hamstringing the team today (Foyle’s money for next year…).
Now let’s look at the drafting:
2004- AB. Fantastic
2005- Ike Diogu (#9 overall), Chris Taft, and Monta Ellis
2006- Patrick O’Bryant (#9 overall) and Kosta Perovic (later signed to a bad contract)
2007- JRich for Brandon Wright, Marco, Jermareo Davidson (traded), and Lasme
2008- Anthony Randolph and Richard Hendrix (I’ll withhold my own judgment- too early)
So basically, the Warriors had 3 Top-11 picks (generating a fourth via the J-Rich trade) and five second round picks before 2008 and what they have to show for it is Beans, Monta, and the pups (not making judgment on them yet).
As for free agency, the deals he has signed are:
Foyle (terrible)
Fisher (terrible but largely rectified)
Dunleavy (terrible but largely rectified)
Murphy (terrible, but largely rectified)
Kelenna (great)
Kosta (terrible)
Maggette (too soon to tell)
That’s one hell of a track record.
So in short, there are good moves, but that’s not some sort of track record that I think a good GM would have. It puts him out of the bottom 25%, but it’s not like he turned the Dubs into a contender- this team made the playoffs once as an 8-seed and won a fantastic series, and I’d argue that the current team isn’t as good as that one and in a far better Western Conference.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AB's draft wasn't fantastic his first few seasons..
Everyone was writing it off then. As for everyone else… they were all a part of something bigger (O’Bryant was destined for the D league, Diogu was essential in the trade to Indiana, Perovic was destined to be a terrible pick and signing, etc. etc.)
As for the free agents… you have 5 terribles and one great. Largely rectified does not mean that it wasn’t a terrible signing.
In terms of the playoffs, the one thing that Mullin did do to salvage everything was bring Nelson back to the bay. Without Nelson as the head coach, the Warriors probably wouldn’t have even made the playoffs, let alone win 48 games last season.
Overall, Mullin is just about below average to average as a GM. In Nellie I trust.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So basically, the Warriors had 3 Top-11 picks (generating a fourth via the J-Rich trade) and five second round picks before 2008 and what they have to show for it is Beans, Monta, and the pups (not making judgment on them yet).
Exactly. And the thing is… that’s not bad.
How many teams around the league consistently draft value in picks #9-18?
2005
9 GSW Ike Diogu Arizona State
10 LAL Andrew Bynum St. Joseph High School
11 ORL Fran Vasquez Spain
12 LAC Yaroslav Korolev Russia
13 CHA Sean May North Carolina
14 MIN Rashad McCants North Carolina
15 NJN Antoine Wright Texas A & M
16 TOR Joey Graham Oklahoma State
17 IND Danny Granger New Mexico
18 BOS Gerald Green Gulf Shores Academy
Bynum obviously would’ve been a better pick, but we’d just drafted a project center the year before, who turned out pretty well. Granger would’ve been infinitely better… a lot of teams whiffed on him. Diogu was a bad pick (though I’ll always love him for helping to rid us of DunMurphy). But there weren’t a bunch of All-Stars left at that point, either. As a matter of fact, by far the best player to have been picked ninth or lower that year is… Monta Ellis, who we got anyway.
2006
9 GSW Patrick O’Bryant Bradley University
10 SEA Saer Sene Senegal
11 ORL J.J. Redick Duke University
12 NOO Hilton Armstrong University of Connecticut
13 PHI Thabo Sefolosha Switzerland
14 UTA Ronnie Brewer University of Arkansas
15 NOO Cedric Simmons North Carolina State University
16 CHI Rodney Carney University of Memphis
17 IND Shawne Williams University of Memphis
18 WAS Oleksiy Pecherov Ukraine
A terrible, terrible pick—an indefensible one. Still, look down the list and you see some role players and some outright washouts. There wasn’t that much we could have done with that pick. There were guys like Millsap and Boobie Gibson, but nobody believed in them… they both fell to the middle of the second round.
2007
8 CHR Brandan Wright University of North Carolina
9 CHI Joakim Noah University of Florida
10 SAC Spencer Hawes University of Washington
11 ATL Acie Law Texas A&M University
12 PHI Thaddeus YoungGeorgia Tech University
13 NOO Julian Wright University of Kansas
14 LAC Al Thornton Florida State University
15 DET Rodney Stuckey Eastern Washington University
16 WAS Nick Young University of Southern California
17 NJN Sean Williams Boston College
18 GSW Marco Belinelli Italy
19 LAL Javaris Crittenton Georgia Institute of Technology
20 MIA Jason Smith Colorado State University
21 PHI Daequan Cook Ohio State University
22 CHR Jared Dudley Boston College
23 NYK Wilson Chandler DePaul University
24 PHO Rudy Fernandez Spain
25 UTA Morris Almond Rice University
A little too early to tell with these guys, but I’m certainly not hating the idea of having Wright over most of ‘em. I don’t know what Belinelli will be - not much, I’m guessing - but there weren’t any home runs below him.
Point is, you can’t get great value in the middle of the first round anymore. You can do a better job of it than Mullin, but not by much.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A point worth considering
I agree with a vast majority of that, but there’s one logical flaw: Look at the GM’s doing the whiffing.
It’s true that Ike wasn’t bad considering the context, but that context is provided by Sund, Bickerstaff, McHale, and Babcock, a veritable Murderer’s Row of bad GMing.
Behind POB you’ve got Sund, Otis Smith (terrible at finding talent generally), Billy King (woo!), Elgin Baylor, and Bower, who has never drafted well (at least in the middle of the round).
The point is that there is talent, but the teams in the later lottery are there for a reason, so those guys let it fall a little later (great examples abound: Stuckey, Granger, Rajon Rondo, Farmar).
Look at the 2008 draft- MJ passes on Robin Lopez for DJ Augustin so Kiki (underrated) takes him.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree
I think the main negative of Mully’s drafting is not that he missed on some star he should’ve seen, but that he should’ve gotten this team another useful bench guy or two. Picking ninth is generally not going to get you a star or necessarily even a starter anymore, but it should get you a useful rotation piece. The fact that in POB, Mullin took a guy who fell well short of that, is inexcusable. I also couldn’t believe he skipped Granger in ‘05.
I’m largely playing devil’s advocate here… I can’t say that I think Mullin’s done a great job of drafting. But I think it’s worth making the point that drafting, particularly lower than fifth, ain’t what it used to be. Guys are just so young and raw now… there are so many projections and question marks involved that even the best teams will outright whiff every once in a while (Dumars picking Darko over Melo, for instance). That doesn’t excuse all of Mullin’s mistakes, but the difference between drafting well and drafting poorly in those spots is less than some people may think.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
First off,
Mullin is a mixed bag as a GM. Any way you look at it. I’d call him average at best, which I think is close to what you would call him.
Grading the recent lottery picks that you did a nice job of putting in perspective: The Diogu pick was mediocre. The O’Bryant pick was bad, but that was a horrible draft. Last year’s draft was fairly deep and talented. I think four players were better than Wright, at 9-15. It’s early though, but I would only rate that pick as so-so. The Belinelli pick was terrble, and worse Belinelli had horrible translated Euroleague numbers – Mullin should have known better. Randolph looks like a horrible pick to me. A scouts dream but stats that don’t translate. And he’s too skinny for an unskilled player in this league. But who knows?
Anyhow, Mullin’s drafting has been a mixed bag. Ellis, Beidrins and then medicore to bad picks.
by San Francisco Slim on Jul 10, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being something of a statnyrd, my inclination is to agree with you on Belinelli and Randolph… I’m totally not sold on either. Here’s hoping they prove us wrong. I still like Wright where we got him, but that’s based on projecting improvement in his game, which is always dicey. It’s possible that he’ll be less valuable long-term than someone like Thornton or Stuckey, but I doubt he’ll end up looking like an outright pick, or even an actively bad pick.
The interesting thing that Mulson does, in their defense, is to supplement these risky, high-upside picks with D-League guys. The fact that we had two former D-Leaguers in our rotation at points last year is pretty unusual… the fact that they both played fairly effectively in more unusual still. If they can keep pulling credible bench guys out of there, there’s something to be said for swinging for the fences with their draft picks. Doesn’t make POB any less of a mistake, though.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
doubt he'll end up looking like an outright BUST
i meant to say
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wright
The picks that look better to me at 9-15 than Wright are Noah, T. Young, J. Wright and Stuckey. Because of a combination of Wright’s unusual skills and talents, and Nelson’s refusal to play him (which I disagreed with), it is just hard to peg Wright at this point. I think he could be excellent, but he seems very raw. I have no idea how much he’ll play this season.
by San Francisco Slim on Jul 10, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy Fernandez and Morris Almond could both be home runs.
by belilaugh on Jul 10, 2008 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, you're forgetting something...
...trades.
Mullin has made three big trades—the one that netted Baron, the one that turned DunMurphy into Jax & Al, and J-Rich for Wright. (He also dumped Fisher, which was a smaller trade, though a good one.)
The first two trades were absolute game-changing home runs. There are many here who still dislike the third trade, but I personally it was pretty dynamite… let’s just call it a wash for now.
Those first two trades alone are enough to turn Mullin from a below-average GM into an average or slightly above-average one. He was able to acquire a superstar for trash, and he turned two wildly overpaid mediocrities into actual value. Granted, he was the one that overpaid them… it was still a home run for the team, as Jack has been a huge boon to us, and Al’s been genuinely useful.
Mullin has been a middling drafter, and borderline bad in terms of signing and re-signing guys… he’s been BRILLIANT at trading. Any evaluation of his record has to include that.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt
But for me, being able to get out of a hole you dug isn’t as big of a strength, partially because you still have the years with those whiffs pre-trade.
If guys like Dunleavy and Murphy weren’t re-signed in the first place (or to better deals), the Warriors would’ve had the flexibility to add better players than Jackson and Harrington, though it did work out well.
The current example is another- the Warriors could’ve gone after a multitude of other guys or just kept the space for either of the next two offseasons, but now those options are gone. Maggette may be something good (or may be traded for it), but there are still a ton of opportunities that are now 100% out the window, and that was the same with the Fisher, Foyle, Dunleavy, and Murphy deals.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All true, but
1) luckily, we didn’t have spend long with the DunMurphy contracts weighing us down,
2) you’re going to eliminate a ton of opportunities any time you do anything. With the money we’d be paying to Monta and Beans either way, I don’t think we’d have the room to sign a top-shelf guy next year. We’d have room for a B-plus guy, maybe, but then that’s what Maggette is… why bother waiting for an improvement of that size if you can get it now?
2010 is a different issue… there’s a legitimate argument to be made that we should’ve become one of the teams gunning for that crop of FAs, once Al’s contract goes away. I’m somewhat sympathetic to that argument. But we can’t know how many of those guys will still be available in two years, and considering that the bidders will probably include two New York teams, we certainly can’t be assured of landing one of the cream of the crop. We’d very possibly end up as we are now: scrambling to sign the next-best guy left available. With a fanbase as sick of losing as ours, I can see not wanting to take that gamble.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good point
But I don’t think we’d have a shot at a cream of the crop guy anyway- it’s more for bringing a good #2 to the fold, because that would help a great deal.
Also, the other way to use cap space is to combine it to move up in the draft- the Warriors could’ve sucked up Cardinal’s contract (ironic, I know) to grab Kevin Love who is the picture perfect 4 with Beans in Nellieball. That would’ve sown up the big man picture (grab a defensive pogo stick for backup C minutes), so the draft and free agency could go towards getting a PG/SG of the future (opposite Monta) and a long-term SF. Considering they’d have a decent 2009 (and possibly 2010) 1st rounder, it’d be a much better start for 2010.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d have been all over that - completely agree that Love would’ve been perfect for us - but unless I’m mistaken, we didn’t have any space to use at the time of the draft, as Baron, Monta, and Biedrins all pre-emptively counted against our cap. I also don’t think that would’ve necessarily gotten it done… as cheap and stupid as Memphis has been, I think even they knew they needed to come out of this draft with a good player.
With this route, we have that long-term SF you reference in Maggette, and an intriguing Monta/Jax backcourt. We’re still short a skilled big man, which is why I like your version better, too. But I doubt we could’ve swung that.
by onlxn on Jul 10, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was do-able
If memory serves, it would’ve taken a little bit of doing, but even a Harrington/14 for Cardinal/Love trade works with cap holds, and I bet they’d toss in Lowry into that deal (considering they threw Mike Miller into the Minny one…). I had a better one worked out previously, but I can’t seem to remember it.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 10, 2008 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mullin
Has done three really good things in his tenure as GM. Trading for Baron, drafting Monta and hiring Nelson.
Biedrins was a nice pick, but that was a really good draft – for instance Josh Smith was taken a few picks later.
Perhaps more than anyone on this site, I think the Jackson/Harrington trade was overrated. For instance, Dunleavy was by most measures the best player of the bunch last season – he had double the Roland Rating of Jackson. And while Harrington is better than Murphy, Al is just an average player. The Warriors got the better of the deal, I believe, but only because Diogu bombed out, this far. Jackson/Harington are better/more suited for the Warriors than Dun-Murph, but not by a great degree.
The key to the Warriors late season run in ‘07 was the returning health of Davis and Richardson. After playing sub-par early and then returning off the DL, down the stretch, Richardson played like an All-Star and Davis like an MVP.
Which leads me to a still early analysis of the Richardson-Wright trade. For last season, it was a bad trade. Richardson played at an All-Star level for Charlotte the second half of the season (slow start after the trade) and Wright never broke into the rotation on a team which had a very short rotation. Richardson would have gotten the Warriors to the playoffs and Davis and Jackson would have been more effective down the stretch with much needed rest, had Richardson stayed on the Warriors.
Also the cap benefit of the trade wasn’t an issue last season. It WAS to be an issue this season, but now Baron is gone, so it isn’t. The analysis of that trade is still very much in flux. Wright may turn out to be very good. Nobody can say at this point. But that trade is up in the air, like the rest of Mullin’s GMing.
However, I don’t dislike what he has done this off-season that much.
Which leads me to
by San Francisco Slim on Jul 10, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Since Don Nelson has come, is it fair to say Mullin has done alot better?
by Nellieball on Jul 10, 2008 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's not forget how Baron CARRIES this team. That's certainly worth $3 million more per year. Without a playmaker, I'm afraid of what will happen.
Yeah that’s why we started out 0-7 until Jack came back and why he carried us from the bench into the playoffs. The fact of the matter is Baron is 32 years old and finally played a full season in lord knows how long. He tried to get the last laugh against us by using the Clippers as an edge, he thought he had a deal with Brand in his back pocket and it’s blown up in his face. It’s been the worst kept secret in the bay that Monta was moving to the point.
Maggette can play the 3, and is a better rebounder than Jack. 28 years old and never got a fair shot in LA. If you think Nellie isn’t going to bench him to send a message if he goes stray, think again.
And what’s with everybody complaining about defense? Nellie ball is all about defense now? Don’t feed me defense wins championships and then celebrate Nellie.
Ronny Turiaf is a bad signing? Have you seen the guy play? Energy off the bench and should lighten up the clubhouse. Hustles after every rebound and gives us some post up offense. Let’s not mention that both of these signings are from divisional opponents either.
We could be doing a lot worse. We could be the Clippers. All I’m saying. If we get a chance to dump Harrington, we can have Wright/Turiaf at the 4 and that’s a huge upgrade. It may not show right away from Wright’s side but it will by the half way point of the season. Problem is, with dumping Harrington we’re probably going to have to take on a bad contract ourselves. Here’s hoping it’s an expiring one.
by Jynx-Removing on Jul 10, 2008 12:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I realized that after I posted it.
My bad.
by Jynx-Removing on Jul 10, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baron did carry that team
Baron was clearly our best player and worth more money than Maggette.
And you’re worried about Baron not playing a full season? Let’s go find a season where Maggette played all 82 games. Oh wait, he’s never done it.
*Side note: we started 0-6. We won our 7th game before Jack came back.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m worried about Baron not being able to play at all in 3 years.
He played all 82 last year, but at the end of the year he was so worn down it was ridiculous.
Plus Baron has had knee and back problems that tend to linger. Maggette’s biggest problem has been his shoulder.
Come on Fantasy Junkie. The Clips were morons for giving Baron that money. Were the Warriors morons for giving Maggette his money? Maybe, but not as big of Morons :)
by Nellieball on Jul 10, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, Maggette is probaly better than Rashard Lewis and Rashard is making 120 million! Consider ourselves lucky lol.
by Nellieball on Jul 10, 2008 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Hey I’m glad we’re not paying Rashard Lewis OR Andrew Bogut’s 5 year/ 72.5 million. $14 per year for Bogut!
Look, I don’t agree with the 5 year contract to Baron for $65 million. I want him for 3 years, not 5. But if I’m going to pay a guy for 5 years he better not have an injury history like Maggette does. If I’m going to pay an injury prone guy for 5 years, I’m picking Baron over Maggette and willing to pay him more money.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Baron picked the Clippers. Time to move on.
by Jynx-Removing on Jul 11, 2008 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A correction
Bogut is making 5 years, $60m.
If Bogut gets up to $72m, he’ll have hit performance incentives that make him worth it
by dprodigy19 on Jul 11, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Consider this...
Had we kept Jason Richardson, would we have started off 0-6?
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
celebrate Nellie??
Celebrate? We’ve been thru this scam before. We’re just wating for nellie to leave town so we can clean up the mess.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 10, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go Maggette!!!
I’m gonna go get one of his jerseys and sport it to the games despite all you haters. I’m sorry but some have some good points about defense and rebound totals.
Still if you look at the numbers I still think he his worth close to that 10mil/yr if he stays healthy. I mean we pay Harrington that much and all he does it sit back and launch contested 3’s. So 10mil is not absurd for a guy who averaged 22 points a game.
Have a little faith in this guy. Cause last time I checked everyone hated dealing J-rich for BW but now everyone wants to see BW on the court. Everyone needs to quite so judgmental before the guy has stepped on the court.
by shooter1525 on Jul 10, 2008 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Everyone was hating on the trade..
Not on Brendan Wright personally. To trade a major cog of the team that just got you to the playoffs for the first time in 13 years is a huge deal. Mitch Richmond for Billy Owens huge. Sure… Owens played well for us afterwards, but we definately weren’t the same team then, and we sure as hell aren’t the same team now.
Now of course I would like to see Wright play and flourish… we gave up Richardson for a chance to test drive Wright for three years and gain some cap space (which was used on absolutely nothing to improve the team).
In the case of Maggette, the question of if he stays healthy is a HUGE question. This guy has been injury prone since his rookie season. To give someone like that a $50 mil contract after blowing off Baron Davis (who averaged 3 more games per season than Maggette) for $3 mil/yr) is a monumental mistake. Maggette was more or less a rushed signing made just for the sake of making a move.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mullin dug the holes himself...
It’s his job to get rid of those stupid contracts he gave to Foyle, Dunleavy, Fisher and Murphy. He did his job by correcting his mistakes, but let’s not sugarcoat everything he’s done. Those contracts and the hiring of Monty did waste 2 seasons. There’s nothing I want to see more than to have a familiar face like Mullin’s to succeed as the GM, but even a guy like Bonds had to go when the honeymoon was over. We barely snuck into the playoffs and had the ideal set-up of facing Nellie’s old team coached by his understudy (where Nellie proved he’s still the teacher). Had we made it through the first round against a team like the Jazz, then I’d say Mullin’s doing a pretty damn good job.
by damnit on Jul 10, 2008 1:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we should fire mullin....
He says he had a plan in case baron opted out, but he clearly didn’t. He just threw money at everything and waited to see what would stick. His Maggette signing, while I don’t totally hate it, is ridiculous. He was bidding against himself, which we all know, is something Mullin has a habit of doing. Plus, I think he has a terrible eye for talent. Granted, he got Monta and Beans, but that’s just about it. POB? Belinelli? I also think Randolph is going to be a giant bust, but we’ll see in the end. Why the hell didn’t we get Chalmers? Why didn’t cohan shell out the cash for an early 2nd round pick and get that PG? I know baron was still on the team but I was screaming this to myself while the draft was going on. I saw Chalmers still on the board, did a double-take, and prayed that the warriors would recognize the situation buy a pick and get him.
by kinetic on Jul 10, 2008 2:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
too much hating
The Dubs will never buy a pick, the owner is just too cheap.
Maggette is overpaid, but everyone in the NBA is overpaid. Furthermore every NBA contract only really needs to hold up for two seasons less than its full term. After three years Maggette becomes Corey Maggette’s expiring contract and can be a trade chip.
The Sniveling about Baron however seems a bit much. We see that he "CARRIES this team." What did he carry them to, eighth and ninth place in the west? Baron probably wasn’t the top player on a title team, though he would have been a nice second banana. Mully tried and tried for KG and when that failed he started going young. By the time that team contended Baron would be in the fourth year of his contract and that’s if the young players worked out.
I loved Baron’s swagger and attitude but he did have his faults. Super low percentage shooters don’t tend to lead their teams to titles. Unless a superstar became available via trade or draft (not that the Dubs want to fall to the bottom of the league) a Baron led team would likely be such in the middle of the west struggling to improve.
And for those who say keeping JRich would fix everything, where would he play. Does Harrington got to the bench? Does Monta? With JRich there, he, Baron, Monta, and Jackson would all need minutes and a team that small is at best a 6th seed with little room for improvement.
by gsdubs on Jul 10, 2008 3:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
J-Rich last season
I don’t know why people have a hard time understanding why J-Rich would have improved this team last season. He played brilliatnly down the stretch in 06-07. That (and Baron’s unbelievable play) was why they were a better team then, than they were in 07-08. Nelson is a smart guy. He would have played Ellis just as much last season. Richardson would have taken the minutes from the subs – Barnes, Buike and Pietrus. The Warriors would have been more Nellie Ball like. Also, Baron and S-Jax wouldn’t have had to play 45 minutes a game and might have had something left at the end of the season.
BTW, I agree with the rest of your post.
by San Francisco Slim on Jul 10, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Oh the memories and how it could have been this past season….....
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a team that small is at best a 6th seed with little room for improvement.
Consistent 6th seed is pretty sweet compared to where we are now.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 10, 2008 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mullin Mullin Mullin....
Now he is a first time GM, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt on a lot of his earlier moves. I don’t think that firing him will be the solution, as only he knows what direction he is taking the team at this point. Giving him a few more years to round out this bunch would be the best decision for the Warriors, especially given the fact that he has a better grasp over the position than when he took over in 04.
The playoffs last season was more of a teaser than anything else. Bringing in Nelson was the best thing he could do to salvage this team while gaining valuable experience and insight as to what the hell he should be doing. His performance as GM, as I have stated numerous times above, has been average at best, with a few great moves but a lot of “WTF” moves. Now if Maggette & Turiaf work out and we are able to sign one major free agent next season and/or the season after, then the wait will all be worth it.
This upcoming season will probably be more or less a let down from this season, as the tough competition in the west is expected to continue (thankfully the Clippers will not contribute to that). I’m honestly more worried about what we do next season than what we do for the remainder of this one. Should we choose to keep Harrington past this season, we will have some attractive trade pieces next season to go along with cap space and (hopefully) a nice (and hopefully healthy) core of Monta, Jax, Maggette, Wright & Beans. With all things being equal, all we would essentially need is a 2nd unit, to which we will already have Turiaf (should the Lakers not resign him) and Randolph.
Now next season could essentially make or break the team, as rebound should not be an issue with that starting five (assuming that Wright continues to work on his decent looking jumper). Defense may be a slight problem, but with a bigger starting five, Monta’s & Maggette’s defensive deficiencies shouldn’t be as problematic as it has been in the past (Maggette’s defense is the reason why Quintin Ross go SO MUCH playing time in the past). Now although I have questioned Mullin’s moves to this point (especially the contract that he gave to Maggette), I have faith that by the 09-10 season, we will be a young team (I.E. a young Dallas Maverick or Sacramento King type of team) that should be able to contend for the playoffs that will evolve into a championship contender.
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 10, 2008 4:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
wholeheartedly agree
give mullin sometime. he had a bad start but it is mullin that gave us that exciting playoff run a couple of seasons ago. i want anyone here to tell me if they ever ever had a more exciting time in their lives as a warriors fan??? tough isn’t it? patience ya’ll!
although i am still looking forward to watching the next season, i am already in 09-10 mode cuz whatever we could have done this year does not erase the fact that the jazz, laker, spurs, suns, hornets, rockets are much better than we are. we may have overpaid for magette, but the contract wasn’t insane enough where it prevents us to make some nice moves in the future after the young guys have developed. by that time some of the teams mentioned above r way past their prime.
by nuttinbutnet on Jul 10, 2008 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fantasy Junkie
We all have opinions and must admit you are consistant. Consitantly wrong! Nice post, but man I am glad you aren;t running my team!
by smearthebeard on Jul 10, 2008 4:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Your team? Ha. This is my team and Mullin is screwing it up! Actually Cohan is, St Jean did, Twardzik too. Hmmm there was Monty, Dampier, we could go on and on.
If you ever own a team, I’ll send my resume.
Glad to know I’m consistent because that’s what really matters. I’m a genius too you know.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can testify
FJ is a genius. Just another reason why I firmly believe he and the rest of my assembled crew could do a better job than Mullin, Rowell, and Cohan running the Warriors. We won’t bring any more of this Golden State of Incompetence.
by Atma Brother ONE on Jul 10, 2008 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Life After Nellie.....
It’s realistic to think that next season could be Nellie’s last. So what will he be leaving behind this time around? Will it be something that the next coach can build upon, or will it be a steaming pile of dog turd? For the past 20 years or so, the Warriors have depended on Nelson for their success. All 5 playoff runs since ‘89 have been under his watch. Will Mullin be intrepid enough to guide this team without Nelson holding his hand? That is the real test for Mullin.
by damnit on Jul 10, 2008 5:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Mullin’s biggest test will be next season when Nellie is done coaching. Mullin needs to find a good coach that will use the team as constructed. For example, Jeff Van Gundy’s a pretty good coach, but would be a horrible fit for the run and gun Warriors. All indications that Keith Smart will be the next coach, but let’s see how that goes.
Also, is Nellie being kept around as a consultant? If so, Nellie could still wield some influence on the personnel decisions for the Warriors.
by coach41 on Jul 10, 2008 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn’t be surprised if Avery Johnson takes over for Nellie again like he did in Dallas.
by Jynx-Removing on Jul 11, 2008 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Life After Mullin.....
He’s going to the Knicks…......just watch.
by Sem-X on Jul 10, 2008 5:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Signing Bash
I’m just shocked you that you can bash a guy that averages 20 + point a game almost 6 boards 3 assists and plays just as good as defense as anyone in the starting line up last year not named Baron Davis. Who cares if he is a ball hog how many take the ball up court no pass 3-pt attempt did Jack and BD attempt last year. Also can you tell me why we have so little faith in Brandon Wright or any of our young forwards, be it though they are sticks just as Chris Bosh and that gut that plays for the piston i think his name is Prince. I believe monta can play the point he did have a few 8 assist games as i remember last yr… but its not as if he would be the full time point anyway remember Jack is also on the floor. ... and if it is absolute must to add another guard I like what I heard about the kid from Milwaukee and if not him did we forget that Ben Gordan is not half bad either and is young also… Remember D is not or strong point if where the highest scoring team in the league how do we ever lose.
by babyboy on Jul 10, 2008 9:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Use the "ENTER" button
In junior high my teacher would have put a big red R/O if I wrote something like that.
R/O = Run On Sentence
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this english or a place for comment
who cares.. ima chef…n score in the top 15% of cali on ST test… get mad at WCCUSD. (west contra costa school district).
Question is did i make since?
by babyboy on Jul 10, 2008 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The issue is being comprehensible. The criticism of your writing is that it’s impossible to understand. Your “comment” was meaningless because it was incomprehensible. Not caring about grammar.
If you want people to pay any note of your comments, making them semi coherent helps more than a little.
by jae on Jul 11, 2008 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fire Who??
Fire Mullin?!!! Seriously!!
How about we fire you as a Fan instead??! You are a Warrior fan, right???
1. Maggette a bad pick up??? – How many games did you watch…when the W’s would settle for 3’s or jump shots in the 4th qtr…what happened??? Either the other team won or the game got too damn close for comfort. CM can really help us out here by taking it to the hole during those times.
2. Turiaf a bad pick up ??? We asked for a rebounder…we got one. Be careful what you wish for…
3. BD carried the team??? Hmmm…I know I’ve watched a few games when Jackson or Monta carried the team. By the way…where the hell was BD in the first 6 games… or the last 10 when we needed him the most last year??
We’ll see what happens…but I’m excited to see what the season brings. Keep it coming Mullin!!! Keep it coming!!!
by zeebee on Jul 10, 2008 9:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's what I don't understand...
I’m not going to respond to your 1., 2., and 3. because there’s no need to.
But here’s what I don’t understand, fire me as a fan? I’m sorry, I don’t have this blind faith, this In Mullin We Trust stance. I criticize the team so I’m not a good enough fan? That’s just dumb. I think we need more fans who criticize the team instead of accepting what the team does. I’m pissed. I have been a loyal fan since I was a kid. I want to see my team make the playoffs more than once in 14 years. When I see a move I disagree with, I criticize. I put lots of time, energy, and money into being a fan, I deserve to be rewarded with a playoff team. This team ain’t making the playoffs as currently constructed.
by Fantasy Junkie on Jul 10, 2008 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree—disliking these moves doesn’t make you a bad fan, any more than liking them makes you a blind sheep. We’re all rooting Dubs here, all hoping these moves move us forward… we’re just debating whether or not they will.
by onlxn on Jul 11, 2008 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davis was a huge, huge part of the team, I’d say the most important. “Carried” is somewhat ambiguous. There were some games where Jax was on fire, many where Monta was. But when they were off the court, the team didn’t automatically fall apart. There were virtually no games where the team didn’t struggle when Baron left the court. We should all be at least a little worried about that.
by jae on Jul 11, 2008 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good moves
Think of Turiaf as a newer generation Larry Smith with Dreadlocks! It looks like with these moves, the Warriors are moving toward a more tradition game. It’ll still be run and gun, but not helter skelter. Going to clipper games in LA I can say that Maggette is really good at slashing to the hoop in a half set. And, unlike Pietrus doesn’t travel or turnover 1/2 the time he blows by a defender. Pietrus might have been a good defender but made constant stupid mistakes.
Maggette for Baron shouldn’t really be the bar of measurement….how he replaces Pietrus’ minutes is a big factor too.
And…btw…in the games i watched – about 75 of them…when Monta has to play the point he did a pretty good job at controlling his turnovers. I saw several games where he had 6 or 7 assists and 0 or 1 turnovers in over 30 minutes. His handles have improved each year…and he’s grown (bigger/taller) each year.
I think Baron at Point vs. Monta at point will be a wash this year…watch their stats…
by joegiant on Jul 11, 2008 3:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
FJ,
We ultimately want the same thing for the Warriors. There’s no doubt about that.
Atleast now you know what it feels like for someone to want to fire you, which is what your thoughts are on Mullin… give a criticism, take a criticism, right
Blind Faith…maybe…I call it support.
Ask yourself this though…
Are you loyal to the Warriors? or are you loyal to your criticism of the Warriors?
In the end no matter what Mullin does with the Warriors, we’ll end up cheering for them in every game… that’s what we do.
by zeebee on Jul 11, 2008 11:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
what your thoughts are on Mullin
My thought is why do they think an ex jock has the skill to run a club? Why not pick an experienced executive? Playing talent is the furtherest thing away from decision making talent and he doesn’t even have a likable personality to balance out his lack of executive experience? If he was a bit more open with the fans and straight with the players I could tolerate him but as it is I hope he gets canned soon, he’s making it so the top players won’t want to come play here. We must have looked pretty unattractive to make Garnett choose Boston over the bay area?
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 12, 2008 12:04 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Thoughts on Mullin
Like I said before, he’s better than St. Jean and Twardzik, but not by much. From reading the posts on here, those who are defending Mullin often cite how many great moves he’s made (ridding Foyle, Fisher, Dunleavy, Murphy). But logically speaking, he’s just correcting his own mistakes. It’s nice that he was able to fix them, but should we be giving him a lollipop everytime he does that? But seeing how we’ve tolerated Bush for 8 years, I think we could stand to give Mullin a little more time. The sad thing is the moves seem all too familiar. Sign a mid-tier talent to a nice contract to squelch any fan dissent about them not doing anything, things don’t work out on the court, dump him after 2 seasons. Start over again. Sad but true…...........
by damnit on Jul 15, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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