The Shaun Livingston Movement
by gregk170 on Jul 10, 2008 6:01 PM PDT
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PrintFrom what I've read on this website (myself being included) a lot of us Golden State fans have fallen in love with Shaun Livingston.
Thus, I say we do everything in our own power to ensure Shaun's destination is Oakland.
Obviously, reaching Chris Mullin is extremely difficult through our own connections; however, if we use local sports writers (i.e. Tim Kawakami, Janny Hu, Marcus Thompson) as well as Fitz and Brooks (KNBR 680) to express our interest in Livingston, perhaps Mullin might be looking through the SF Chronicle and see an article entitled "Warriors Fans Make Plea for Livingston." So I say we bombard these people with emails expressing our thoughts on Shaun Livingston until they have no choice but to write about it. I'm talking hundreds and possible thousands of emails to each individual. Each email's subject should be "The Shaun Livingston Movement." Listed below are the email addresses:
Tim Kawakami, San Jose Mercury: tkawakami@mercurynews.com
Janny Hu, San Francisco Chronicle: jhu@srchronicle.com
Marcus Thompson, Contra Costa Times: mthompson2@bayareanewsgroup.com
Bob Fitzgerald and Rod Brooks, KNBR 680: fitzandbrooks@knbr.com
*ALSO* please give this post as many recs as possible so it says up on recommended posts for everyone to see (we will be able to get more emails out this way)
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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I'm down, lets do this! But....
Mullin doesn’t care. He’s going to the Knicks.
REC THIS POST! KEEP THE MOVEMENT GOING!
good ideas gregk
by gogoldenbears on Jul 11, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
He's irrelevant as an NBA PG....peep game.
by GoldenStateDubtronic on Jul 10, 2008 6:16 PM PDT reply actions
Indeed.
Man’s finished. Very sad, tragic ending to what looked like a bright future.
by Travis Bickle on Jul 14, 2008 5:29 AM PDT up reply actions
meant to have this posted to it...
by GoldenStateDubtronic on Jul 10, 2008 6:17 PM PDT reply actions
I know the injury was bad but...
Willis McGahee of the Baltimore Ravens had nearly the exact same injury in college (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSySFNv9xNE) and he has recovered to the point at which he is an all-star. The thing is if injuries like this happen to guys at a young age, they have a good shot at recovering. It’d be different if this happened to him and he was 30, but it happened to him at the age of 20. He’s got a good shot at recovering at least 80% of what he could have been. And I don’t know about you, but I’ll take that.
exactly....
Shaun is young enough, and with today’s technology it is quite possible for a full recovery. He needs to get his body right though.
by goldenstatefan on Jul 11, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
huh?
horrible injury to be sure, but it doesn’t indicate his game at all.
unless you’re referring to that game specifically and how the injury in that game will potentially be too much to recover from—rendering him irrelevant as an NBA PG.
but as for his actual skills, not true
by gogoldenbears on Jul 11, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I like Livingston, but
I’m not sure he’s good enough or healthy enough to warrant this level of interest. Even best case scenario he’s not really gonna be the guy to carry this franchise to a title. I just like him as a backup option at PG and maybe as a solid starter in the future.
I kind of agree with you.
Livingston has averaged about a starter’s minutes (27 minutes per game) and hasn’t really proven much. He averages like 9 points, 5 assists, and 3 rebounds for his career, which shows potential, but then again Kwame’s averages shows potential, too, (7 points and 6 rebounds in 23 mpg) and I think Kwame’s the worst player in the League.
Livingston has also averaged less than 50 games per season and, in my opinion, has not shown much progress in his 3 years in the L, if you look at Livingston’s stats. I think this would be like signing Kwame Brown. A team would like both players’ basketball bodies (height and strength in Brown’s case), but both have not shown much when they get playing time, they’re both injury-prone, have not shown a particularly strong drive, and would be signed on 100% untapped potential.
by The Daydreamer on Jul 11, 2008 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
stats dont even come close to telling the whole story
look at larry bird’s career assist numbers to see why.
or the fact that marbury averaged 8+ assists for x amount of years but still sucked mighty balls and loserized all his teams.
why cant we give a chance to Belinelli!
he can shoot and has great speed..
get livingston
now. this guy had pippen-ish defensive skills as a 19 year old. even at 80 percent, he’s a smart player who’s gonna be solid for years to come.
start at 2.5ish and go up to 4mil. i’d rather overpay a bit for someone who could potentially be an all star if he recovers from injury.
+1
let’s not kick ourselves in 2 years for missing out on the perfect compliment. it’s worth the gamble, and we have both the need and the loot… let’s role the dice. if we get lucky and he heals, our young lineup could be epic in 2-3 years:
livingston, ellis, randolph, wright, biedrins with marco and kelenna off the bench—ALL IN THEIR MID 20’s.
look at the tape
On paper Livingston looks great, he seems really intelligent and personable, carries himself extremely well- not to mention he’s 6’7 and can handle. But….first take a look at his last injury (google it,) and then take a look at his history of injuries (both knees!!!) I rather take my chances on a head-case w/all star skills Marbury (ala Baron Davis -let us not forget.) I wish Livingston well, but I don’t think he’s going to approach the kind of level required to play in the NBA. Just look at the tape and you decide.
nah
you’re probably right about livingston, but i think you’re wrong about marbury. he no longer has all star skills, is 31 and on the downside of his career (struggled for the last 3 years).
i was gonna give you a very long winded response but i found some interesting correlations so i thought i would share it with everyone in a fanpost. see: baron davis = stephon marbury (just say NO to stephon)
i give you a nice shoutout : )
by gogoldenbears on Jul 11, 2008 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Listed below are the email addresses:
Bomb them with requests for Raymond Felton trade !
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 10, 2008 8:15 PM PDT reply actions
Not going to get a better chance for a bargain than this
As I’ve written previously, I’m fine with giving him 3 / $13.5 *plus a team option) if that’s what it takes. The Warriors won’t have cap space for those years anyway, and the upside for Livingston is certainly worth a $4m contract if you have control for a few years and don’t rush his coming back
i
completely agree…i mean the guy is only 22 years old. he has plenty of time to rehabilitate to his full potential
he has plenty of time to rehabilitate to his full potential
and if not we’ll rule the wheelchair leagues!
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 10, 2008 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I doubt he'll cost that much...
...not without coming back and proving he can play. Probably more like $2M to $3M. My guess is that he takes a smaller package with a player option on the last year or two—that gives him some long term protection if he gets hurt or stays mediocre, but also the option to renegotiate if he regains form. So I’m guessing it will be more like 2 years at $5M, and a 3rd year at a player option of $2M or something like that. Which is totally doable.
I’m not so sure I’d do 3yrs/$13.5M though. I mean, not without him proving he’s healthy. That’s probably more than Kelenna will make; James Jones just signed with the Heat for 5yrs/$24M. So that should give you some idea of where the line is between gamble and value…
Agree! Agree! Agree!
The risk/reward ratio is too good to pass up, in my opinion. The severity of his injury is a concern (I believe he is not yet cleared to work out on consecutive days), but even at 80%, Livingston could be an effective player.
What made him so special for his position wasn’t his athleticism (ala Stevie Francis), or his ability to score (ala Penny, Marbury, etc), but his court vision/savy (think J-Kidd-ish). Not saying he’s J-Kidd, but I don’t see his skill set diminishing with age/injury like some of the other PG names I mentioned.
Best case scenario? Rehabs successfully and regains all his pre-injury range of motion, etc. becomes the elite point guard that the Clips thought they were getting when they drafted him, etc.
Worst case? Never fully recovers from his injury, the W’s eat $12 million (or whatever we’d sign him for).
Now, how much is too much to offer for an injured/once-elite prospect? 3/$12? 2/$5?
You may run like Hayes. but you hit like sh**!
80% might be enough, if he has vision
Unless he sticks a fork in his eye, he’s not gonna lose the court vision. And that’s something you can’t teach—you can develop it, but you can’t teach it.. So he may be a half step or step slower, but he can still have an impact if he can see the floor (and remember, he’s 6’7” so he’s always going to be able to see the floor). If he turns out to be slower, the logical alternative is to refine his outside shot. So long as he can keep his own man honest, he should be able to find mismatches and still help run an offense…
YES!!! (livingston = poor man's jkidd imo)
ever since the yi movement there have been way too many movements on this board, but this is one movement that i am FOR.
livingston was very talented—very good ball handling, court vision, size, defensive potential and incredibly quick. basically a poor man’s jkidd (but with similar potential). shot was suspect but improving. he would be perfect to pair with monta in the backcourt and would complement maggette, jackson and monta since he is a pass first guy.
its very rare that you get a UFA at age 22 with so much talent and potential. despite his injury, he is definitely worth taking a flyer on for a couple years/couple million. i would not be upset or disappointed AT ALL if he didn’t pan out (except for the poor kid—there wasn’t even contact when he suffered that injury) and it is definitely a risk worth taking.
not that where someone is picked in the draft means much (especially since rafael araujo was taken ahead of al jefferson in the very same draft) but livingston was taken ahead of PGs such as devin harris, sebastian telfair (another gsom pg candidate) as well as top RFAs andre iguodala and josh smith. again this doesn’t mean much but to show that people valued his talent highly even while compared to these other players.
i’ll concede to the skeptics that there is a very small chance livingston will be able to come back. he already had extensive injury history prior, plus in his most memorable injury he tore/broke almost every part of his knee. however, if we conservatively guess there is a 20% chance livingston will be able to heal fully, there is little doubt that he will develop into one of the top NBA PGs. i’m willing (for the warriors haha not me) to risk a few years for a few million for a 20% chance at a top 5 NBA PG…
oh and ps—he will fit perfectly with our tall/thin/high potential theme of the future: imagine
PG: livingston (6’ 7”, 189)
SG: monta (6’3”, 177)
SF: randolph (6’11”, 197)
PF: bwright (6’10”, 210)
C: biedrins (6’11”, 245)
if we conservatively guess there is a 20% chance livingston will be able to heal fully, there is little doubt that he will develop into one of the top NBA PGs
I’d worry more about his ability to play defense. Playing point on a bad leg is easier cause you know where you are going but playing defense takes quick changes of direction which must be very difficult with a damaged knee?
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 11, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
true
i forgot about that. but if he makes a FULL or close to full recovery, he should be able to evolve into a top PG on offense and have the potential to be very good on defense
by gogoldenbears on Jul 11, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Defense? Defense? We talking 'bout Defense? Not Offense?? Defense?
I thought that was the idea behind getting all these tall-skinny-long guys at the 3, 4 and 5. In fact, it would be an excellent strategic move if our goal was to lead the league in blocked shots. Stick some crappy defenders at the 1 and 2, then just dare people to drive into our shot-blocking army. ANd I’m only half kidding…
But seriously, you’re right. Good point. Lateral quickness will be his weakness, for sure…
It's a good point
And that’s actually one of the benefits of Livvy’s size- he doesn’t have to guard shifty PG’s all the time- in fact, he’d only do that a small portion thanks to Monta
So...
All you guys are pushing to sign Livingston (a guy who’s never played a full season and is recovering from such a horrible knee injury that I can’t bring myself to see the video) to almost a 4M/year contract, and yet people don’t like Turiaf (a young hustle, energy, banging big man) for a 4M/year contract. Something doesn’t seem quite right there. The risk reward for Livingston isn’t there unless we make only a one year commitment with team options for the second and third year. More love for Turiaf, less for Livingston.
NBA bigs are like NFL linemen. They don’t get the love from the fans, but they are more important to winning teams.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 11, 2008 9:58 AM PDT reply actions
It's about upside, homey
Turiaf is a great person and a decent hustle player, but Livingston could be a nasty PG and is a complement to Monta.
As for your NFL lineman analogy, that’s more for starter-quality big men (and I’d argue a good PG is more valuable than a #2 big), which Turiaf is not, as much as I love him.
Not necessarily...
a.) I, for one, like the Turiaf signing. But I suspect the Lakers will match, making it moot…
b.) See above; I don’t think he’s $4M/year. Would you gamble on him for a short term $2.5M/year contract?
One year, 2.5M but only with 2 years of team options to increase the reward factor.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 11, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I see what you mean
But it’s possible he needs 2 years to get back, so I’d think 2 years guaranteed is more likely. Plus, if I’m his agent I’m shooting for smaller contracts over a few years that add up, with an opt-out if I prove myself… I’d definitely do a 1-year if it was an option, but I’d guess it would be more than $2.M…
not me (money-wise)
i dont think we should give livingston 4 mil a year. im thinking like 2 years/4mil or 3 years/6. maybe a little bit more but definitely not more than 3 mil for sure and probably not even that. i dont think he will demand that much and would probably take a 2-3 year contract so he will have some semblance of financial security but will give him the ability to sign a lucrative long term deal if he is indeed able to heal.
that said, i think 4 mil for turiaf is a bit much. maybe if he gets more time here and develops some offense i will think otherwise. i am glad we’re going for turiaf, just not at the 4 mil.
dprodigy beat me too it, but yea its also about upside. to piggyback, its great to sign turiaf for “lineman” depth. but i’m sure nfl teams would pay a solid (backup at this point) lineman a similar amount as they would a potential STUD QB (livingston in this analogy) who may have had an injury setback. maybe the contract wouldn’t be as long, but maybe same yearly. its all about potential
by gogoldenbears on Jul 11, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Jeez people
You’re talking about Livingston like he was already BD or CP3. He was a project before he was injured, and he’ll still be a project now. Except, he’ll be rusty from not having played in a while, tentative from his injuries, and slower and less athletic from his injuries. What about Shaun Livingston has ever said “STUD PG” (to use your STUD QB analogy)? He’s played decent minutes (27MPG) and has OK numbers (9.5PPG/5APG/2TOPG). He doesn’t score efficiently or get to the line ever, his rebounding numbers are pretty poor for a guy his size (3.4RPG). His only advantage is that he’s 6’7”, but he’s only 182lbs, which makes him skinnier than Monta at 6’3”, 177. And that skinnyness is only going to exacerbate the injury concern, and it’s not like he’s been able to do any serious lifting on his legs BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN INJURED HIS ENTIRE CAREER!
Whatever… I agree that if we could take a flyer on him for 2.5M per season for one year with team options for the second two, he’d be worth the risk. Any more than that is ridiculous IMHO.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 11, 2008 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
On Turiaf
He fills a need. We have no depth at the 4/5 (no, skinny ass rookies don’t count). He is a known quantity. His salary is determined by the market rate. The market rate for mediocre big men happens to be higher than that for mediocre guards (which come a dime a dozen). Deal with it. We need a back up big, and unless you want to pay and old injured Croshere (or bring back Webber) the vet min to hang out in his suit for half the season while we have nobody to back up Beans, we have to hire a big like Turiaf. Who are you going to get for less that is going to be anywhere near him? Show me one contract. Just one. No, rookie contracts don’t count.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 11, 2008 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I'll throw out a few
Granted, I’m at work and it’s hard to find contract info off the cuff, but here goes:
Andray Blatche (making $2.7m)
Fabricio Oberto ($3.5m per)
Francisco Elson ($2m, I think)
Malik Allen (making $770k)
Jackie Butler (UFA, could get for almost nothing)
Hell, Trevor Ariza (not a big, but he could play some 4 for GSW) makes under $3m in the final year of his deal
And what is Turiaf? I’d say he’s ideally a solid #4 big (as in 2nd big off the bench in the rotation)- is that a spot that warrants big money? I’d rather have a backup point than a #4 big man any day, and Livingston can be much more than a backup PG.
Let's see...
Blatche – good player, but he’s already signed for 5 years by the Wizards. NOT ATTAINABLE.
Oberto – Again, good player, but he’s already signed for 3 years by the Spurs. NOT ATTAINABLE.
Elson – Old, busted, and never that good in the first place. He would not see PT on the Warriors.
Allen – Old and worse than Croshere.
Ariza is a SF. He’s not a PF, and could never play backup center. He’s not in the equation, but thanks for trying. Oh, and he’s signed on for another year by the Lakers. NOT ATTAINABLE
So you came up with two guys who are already signed for small contracts by their own teams, two old veterans who’re way past their prime and worse than Turiaf (or Croshere), and one SF (under contract with his current team) because you couldn’t find anyone else. Great. Thanks for helping me prove my point.
I don’t know where you get your “ideally a solid #4 big man” from. Are you trying to build an all star team? You’d rather have Jax and Maggs come off the bench when Kobe needs a rest? You play with the hand you’re dealt, not the one you want. We have a big hole at the 4 when we play against quality teams. Turiaf fits that hole, and big men command a higher salary than guards. He’s not going to be a world beater, he’s not going to be asked to be a world beater.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 11, 2008 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Find me big men on the open market
You’re picking from such an insanely small sample size that it’s impossible to make a statement.
And I love Turiaf as a person, but what of his on the court play shows him as more than a #4? His rebounding numbers aren’t spectacular, his defense is solid but not worldbreaking, his size is mediocre (6’ 9.25” at the combine) and he’s not a great scorer. Turiaf is an underrated passer and has a great attitude, but how in the hell is he the first big off the bench or a starter on a playoff team?
Oh, and he played TERRIBLY in the playoffs
There's a reason there are no big men on the market
That’s because teams don’t let quality big men go. It’s why ESPN rates Beans above Monta on their “RFA rankings” list.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 14, 2008 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
lol
haha yea thats all i’m saying…a couple mil a year for a couple years with team options.
i’ll admit that i probably overrate the guy because i am a big fan of players with raw talent and athletic ability. however, its all potential. going back tot he analogy, even despite his previous success and raw skills thought steve young would be a bust after being in tampa (nothing to show he would be a good NFL QB), but he evolved into a hall of famer on the niners.
while livingston obviously doesn’t have close to the pedigree of young—even pre-49ers young, he has similar potential which is why its worth the risk.
and turiaf—whatever. he does fill a need and i probably like him more than most posters on here and think he can be decent on offense as well as very good on defense. as long as i’m not paying the 4 mil i guess its fine.
by gogoldenbears on Jul 11, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, while I agree that he’s injury prone (let’s not forget that he had trouble with the other knee already too, not to mention a bad back), I don’t think that adding weight is going to help. Adding weight isn’t going to stabilize the knees or help his back and may harm it if he’s carrying more pounds on a weak joints. It’s a bad situation.
I’d really be wary of that bad back. A back injury is what killed Ralph Sampson’s career. After a great first couple of seasons he took a bad spill and apparently, changed his gait as a result. His knees didn’t react well to this and he was perpetually hampered for the rest of his career as a result. I suspect that Livingston could suffer a similar fate.
It's all about price!
He we can get him cheap, he is VERY much worth the gamble! I agree that I dont think $4m is the right price, $2.5m on a short term contract, no problem.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Jul 11, 2008 10:48 AM PDT reply actions
i wouldnt do it
some people are saying that even at 80%he is still worth it. no way.when you lose your agility as pg your done. people dont come back from an injury like that the same. he will have lost a step. some say thats ok he could guard the 2 on d. he’s not strong enough to hold his own. he would get back down by every 2 guard and some pg. then the $$$. paying him some 2 to 3 or some even say they would do 4 mill and he is not even healthy enuogh to play yet. we would blow the rest of our cap and not get any production for it. if he didnt get hurt this would be a very different conversation
If he didn't get hurt he'd still be at the Clips this year...
...and so would Elton Brand, most likely. And next year he’d be looking at a contract in the $6-9M range, depending on exactly what happened between 08-10. He was starting to take his game to his next level when he blew out his knee… But yeah, shoulda-woulda-coulda. The agility thing is a major issue—the issue, flat out. That’s why we have trainers, etc.
But I’ll tell you one thing. If the Suns sign him, then we blew it. They have the best rehab docs in the league, and if they think he can play then he probably can… Keep an eye on the Suns and see if they suddenly show interest. They need a backup PG too (Barbosa doesn’t count).
thank you Rach.
finally a realistic perspective .The doctors who worked on Livingston considered amputating his leg at one point. His knee is f**ed up. Also, Livingston has never really proved himself at the adult level.He played his best basketball in high school against teenagers .The NBA isn’t the freekin Mcdonalds All-American game. He needs to recover and he needs to gain more experience.That could take 2 to 3 years. those years aren’t worth 4 mil.
by gsw-fanatic on Jul 11, 2008 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Did you ever watch him on the Clippers last year pre-injury?
He looked very good last year. And he needs more experience? I’m shocked at this amazing revelation that a 22 year old with limited playing time needs more seasoning…
Additionally, court vision is something that cannot be taught and Livingston unquestionably has that.
The idea of a “buy low” player/stock is that they’re not a sure thing- if they were, the price would be higher
+1
If there’s one thing that drives me crazy about this team, it’s when they wuss out and go “practical” rather than ballsy. I mean, seriously, what is there to lose? An outside shot a first-round playoff exit?
If you don’t have a championship core — which we haven’t, at any point in my lifetime — I think it’s insane not to go after risky guys with upside whenever the opportunity presents itself. It’s why I liked the BWright trade and the Randolph pick; and why I’m not wild about signing Maggette (a solid, solid NBA player with zero upside); and why I was absolutely livid when we picked Smith over KG, Fuller over Kobe, Foyle over TMac, Diogu over Bynum, POB over Carney, etc. etc.
This team never seems to learn. Even if Livingston has a 1% shot at being a legit 6’7” all-star point guard, that’s better than Stephon Marbury’s or Rafer Alston’s or Luke Ridnour’s 100% shot at being mediocre.
Sign ^^^^ !!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 11, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
+1 trillion :: my thoughts EXACTLY
amen sleepy. i’m pretty much gonna echo all your points in this post
this team needs to step up and take a risk once in awhile. if you look at this roster, we’re a borderline maybe-not-likely-playoff team this year and will probably battle for the 8-12 positions in the west. we need to be able to take risks-we have nothing to lose right now, especially with the west so strong (now and into the future) and baron gone. if we want to compete with these teams in the future, we need to continue to take the bwright, randolph type risks. maybe a few of these guys turn out to be something. if we continue to go after “safe” mediocre players, we’re continue to be a mediocre team. just look at the SF GIANTS. sure these guys might all not pan out and we could suck, but we could also end up being really great. again, at this point, we’re probably not going to the playoffs and not going to win anything anytime soon-lets get some risky young guys and see what they can do.
if you guys know financials this is similar to why hedge funds more lucrative than mutual funds. hedge funds take risks—sell short, etc. while mutual funds typically invest in less volatile stocks. i’m tired of safe bets. livingston is a very very unsure bet, yet could yield high returns and at a low price is not risky. would you rather have kosta perovic for 2yrs/3mil or shaun livingston for 2yrs/4mil?
i agree with everyone who says hes not worth 4 mil—of course not. but he is worth a short term contract for couple million. completely agree sleepy. this is one of the best things i’ve seen written on GSOM “This team never seems to learn. Even if Livingston has a 1% shot at being a legit 6’7" all-star point guard, that’s better than Stephon Marbury’s or Rafer Alston’s or Luke Ridnour’s 100% shot at being mediocre.” you can add keyon dooling to that list too. cj watson should be able to be at least mediocre just fine.
by gogoldenbears on Jul 11, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd rather have Livingston.
Period. I’ve seen Kosta, and I’m comfortable I know his upside.
If you don’t have a championship core — which we haven’t, at any point in my lifetime
Geez, you are pretty crusty for someone less than 33 years old?
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 11, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm older than that, son.
The big 4-0, as of November. I’ve earned my crust, dammit. ;-)
And as long as I’m answering your questions: I live in NYC now, though my wife and I miss Tokyo a ton. We’re giving the Big Apple a trial run: if we hate it, we always have Tokyo (better food, nicer people, earthquakes) and the Bay Area (better weather, nicer people, earthquakes, the Warriors).
Any other personal questions you want answered?
Sign ^^^^ !!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 11, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
PS
By way of proof: as a kid in Boston, I remember rooting for a blond floppy-haired Celtics forward named Don Nelson…
Sign ^^^^ !!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 11, 2008 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
The big 4-0, as of November.
So you were 7 years old and don’t remember the championship core!
There’s some nice people in NYC, my daughter lives there and she’s not like me.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 11, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually I kinda sorta do
I had a weird fixation on sunny Cali from an early age. I remember liking Barry and Ray and Thurmond, and being totally fascinated by the name “GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS.” I was like, where is this magical Golden State, and why the F do I have to live in grey snowy Massachusetts…?
I had a similar fascination for the early-mid ‘70s A’s. Those yellow sleeveless jerseys and crazy facial hair and names like Vida Blue and Blue Moon Odom Rollie Fingers…? That still is pretty much the coolest baseball team ever.
Sign ^^^^ !!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 11, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Vida Blue and Blue Moon Odom Rollie Fingers…
Don’t forget Catfish Hunter! Those were the days for Bay area sports, Warriors, A’s, Raiders all great.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 11, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
In all honesty,...
...we did draft projects/take gambles with our last 3 first rounders: O’Bryant, Wright, and now Randolph. Looking at the risk/reward tradeoff, I personally I don’t like going 99% risk. (I really would have liked to have seen CDR in a Warriors uni.) I hope Randolph does well for us, though. Randolph’s shown signs, if that 30 point summer league game counts for anything…
by The Daydreamer on Jul 12, 2008 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions
totally agree sleepy, except for one thing
P.O’B kinda was an upside pick. You could say Diogu was too actually. And you kinda imply that all or even most upside picks pan out which is far from true. I agree you rarely win championships without gambling in the draft, trades, or free agent market, but its not like we’re guaranteed to land the next TMac, KG or Kobe with an upside pick. I know I was clamoring for Gerald Green for quite some time, and his window of opportunity to be a good NBA player appears to be closing quickly.
Yeah
You and Daydreamer are right about POB: when you blow the #9 pick on an obscure center from Bradley who hasn’t shown much statistically, it better be about upside. And in fairness: when I youtubed a couple of his clips after the draft, I got a little excited at the way he moved for a guy his size. Still, the general consensus right after the draft was pretty “meh”; and Nellie seemed to notice that he had very little upside he moment he laid on him. If they gotten Nellie on board before he draft, I think they would have probably chosen differently (man, Rajon Rondo would sure look nice on this team right about now, wouldn’t he?) But yes: we should probably chalk the POB pick up to simple “stupidity” rather than “stupidity borne of playing it safe.”
Diogu to me was much more of the “stupidity borne of playing it safe” variety: a player from a reputable program, with solid college numbers, who “filled a need”, but had real physical limitations on his NBA ceiling. Even at the time, I would have much preferred we pick Bynum, whose risks and rewards were far more extreme.
Gerald Green’s a perfect example of the downside of upside: a raw guy with amazing physical tools who never quite seems to develop. Obviously NBA history is littered with guys like that (Chris Washburn, Yinka Dare, Darius Miles, Dajuan Wagner, Eddie Griffin, Jonathan Bender, Nikoloz Tskitsivili, Michael Olowokandi, etc. etc.) That’s what makes picking for upside ballsy, right?
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by Sleepy Freud on Jul 13, 2008 4:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Nellie seemed to notice that he had very little upside he moment he laid on him.
That doesn’t mean a guy has little real upside, Nellie wouldn’ta thunk Shaq had upside. Nellie’s is not good at maximizing players given potential, Nellie would rather find players that fit his interests than work with the players strengths.That’s why he doesn’t have a ring, the best players can’t play his style , while the best players do win games with their own style.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol stalkin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 13, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
What players were unsuccessful under Nellie
Well, since they gotta be around to be sucessfull the first one that comes to mind is Webber.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol stalkin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 14, 2008 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Nellie is one of the few coaches with a discernible positive effect on a player’s productivity compared to the same player under other coaches. This observation runs counter to your notion that Nellie “is not good at maximizing players given potential.”
I don’t think he always makes best of use of lineups, and it appears that his dog house can have a trap door and dungeon from which no one returns, but most players actually do better under Nellie than they do elsewhere. I’m struggling to find the guys in the league who Nellie declared DOA that went on to solid careers and maximized their potential elsewhere.
“Upside” doesn’t seem to be quantifiable. POB’s “upside” was that he could walk in a straight line and was 7 feet tall.
a discernible positive effect
You got something wrong with your computer, positive and most have darker letters than the rest of the words?
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol stalkin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 14, 2008 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
It's called
Bold
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quotepeople. It’s fun!
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 14, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
"laid on him"
Whoops … make that “laid eyes on him.” If Nellie actually laid (or lay) on POB in practice, that might explain some of his early struggles… Ouch!
As far as your Shaq comment: hardy har. I think it’s pretty safe to say that Nellie would have seen the upside in a 7’2” freak with cat-like quickness who could crush steel in his biceps and jump out of the gym. If Nellie had tried to lie on Shaq, he might not still be alive to tell about it… ;-P
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by Sleepy Freud on Jul 13, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
not that i'm for signing livingston
b/c as an injury risk, he’s way too unreliable. and i’m sure other teams will also take a flier on him driving up his price (anything over 2-3 a year or longer than 2 years even after a physical and work out is too much). or, if the lakers match on turiaf, you could make the ingenious move to sign him w/ the 1st year for whatever cap room is left and team options the following years (or simply a 1 yr deal in itself). then he either pans out or becomes a valuable expiring contract whenever the moratorium is over.
but as to the reason i replied to your post, he might be strong enough to guard 2’s. i remember watching a clips game when visiting my brother down in irvine (his job got him tickets) and the clips had him guarding kobe (who is one of the stronger 2’s in the league) and livingston usually held his own.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRP6Sy8ICwA
obviously, i can’t provide the whole game footage b/c i don’t have it. i just searched youtube b/c i remember livingston rejecting kobe a couple times. neither highlight involves backing down in the post, but at least in the 2nd highlight you can see proof that livingston was guarding kobe that game when he was in.
of course, kelenna also had one good defensive game against kobe and so it’s to be taken w/ a grain of salt. maybe kobe wasn’t feeling well and whatnot.
by the evil monkey on Jul 12, 2008 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions
think about what your
saying for a second. that he is going to be as good as or better than cp, dwill, bd, tparker ,snash and ai and he is going to do it with only one good knee. these guys are the benchmark as far as allstar pg’s thats crazy talk.even with 2 good knees he wasnt even on the close to being mentioned in the same sentence as those guys i mentioned. he tore all 3 ligaments and dislocated his knee cap. timmy tore 1 and wasnt the same. im not a hater i liked this kid before he got hurt his length gave bd problems. but that was then and this is now. to pay a guy and not get anything in return this year is crazy not ballsy. ballsy would be trading away monte or beans.
i do agree though that those drafting choices suck. but it actualy follows the same logic that you are using. picking a person to fill a preceived need instead of getting the best available player period regardless of position.
but that was then and this is now.
My guess is he’ll never recover well enough to play NBA high level ball but I’d take a flyer on him or give him a chance for a very low stipend now with team option for a high price in 3 years. What is the minimum for a waivered player with his time? Are there special contracts for seriously injured players?
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 11, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
i am 100% behind this movement
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
cant wait...
...for this to happen again if we get him
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Not a Starter
Sign Livingston, whats the worst that could happen. He wouldn’t start. THAT’S MONTA’S JOB!!! He would come off the bench and play some quality minutes, he’s young athletic can platy next to Monta, and can start if needs be, relatively inexpensive. What’s there to lose?
by droppin gsw _knowledge south bay style on Jul 11, 2008 5:56 PM PDT reply actions
Bottom line
We need a backup point who can start if needs be and we need an impact 4. Not an all star, (although it would be nice), just some one with good defensive skills and good rebounding skills. It would be perfect to sign Livingston and some how get Josh Smith, maybe Wright and Harrington can split time. I would sin Turiaf but it would be cool if he could be used as trade bait with AL for Josh Smith. We need a BACKUP pg and a starting 4
by droppin gsw _knowledge south bay style on Jul 11, 2008 6:00 PM PDT reply actions
another PG possibility
What about Derrick Low out of Washington State? He was a great PG there. I dont’ think he was drafted. Not sure if he is playing in Europe or something.
Low
I like Low as a roster player (not as the backup PG)- great kid. He’s playing for the Mavs’ Summer League team, and as far as I know he has no commitments beyond Summer League.
another washington state guard!
wish we coulda landed Kyle Weaver in the draft-he’d be just about perfect next to Monta.
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