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Grading Mullin - The Warriors Off-Season

This off-season is probably the most important off-season for Chris Mullin and our Dubs. The last time Mullin had an off-season like this he signed Foyle and Fisher to horrible deals to build around franchise cornerstones: Jason Richardson, Troy Murphy, and Mike Dunleavy. We all know how that turned out.... outside of Jason Richardson all of those moves have turned out to be big, fat, F.

So let's look at the moves Mullin has made this off-season:

1) Not re-signing Baron Davis

I don't know about you, but during our playoff push last year I began to wish Nelson didn't give BD so much leeway. With each 3 pointer he chucked, instead of taking it to the rack and his matador defense trying to go for pokes... I began to hate him. The one sequence that sticks in my head is against the Nuggets in a do or die game for the final playoff spot... sometime in the late 3rd/early 4th the Warriors down by 4 points or so had 3 defensive stops in a row... sadly the defense went for nothing as BD launched 3 pointers instead of working for a better shot. After that time I knew that we got the best out of BD the year before... the unstoppable bowling ball during the last month of the season and in the playoffs.

Next season our win total maybe lower, but that extra year of experience without BD will do wonders for Ellis, Biedrins, and the rest of the young guys as they learn to win in the NBA and gain experience a steh go-to guys... this could lead to more wins in the future.

GRADE: B .. Next season we will suffer, but it will pay off in the future.

2) Offering Brand and GA Max contracts

These were genius moves by Mullin. Had he landed either player the Warriors would've been a lock for playoffs IMO.. with that said and as much as it hurts to say this as Gilbert Arenas is my favorite player... Brand would've been a much better fit for the Warriors. I'd much rather pay 100 million for a stud big man who can do it all than perimeter oriented scorer (as clutch as GA is).

GRADE: Brand (A) - Well worth the shot and would actually IMPROVE the team. Arenas (C) - The Warriors would be no better than a 48 win team and potentially worse with GA at point over BD. Plus he plays the same position as Ellis and you have yourself a team that has tied up it's capspace for status quo. You don't committ 100 million to 1 player for status quo.

Average: B .. Well worth the shot.

3) Signing Corey Maggette 5yrs/50 million

Corey is a good player and a I'm glad he'll be abusing opposing teams instead of abusing us. Two things I love about Maggs is: (1) He makes FTs (2) He will not be denied to the rim. This is what the Warriors were lacking last year... someone who wouldn't settle for jumpshots and is confident in their FT shooting. Two things I hate about Maggs: (1) He is not a playmaker (2) He will not be denied to the rim. What this means is Maggette is BALL HOG CITY!! I just hope that was all due to the Clippers being depleted and him being in a contract year, but Maggs is a black hole. He can kill an entire offense for stretches since he rarely gives up the rock. If this Warrior team is to succeed they will need to share the rock.

While he has more positives than negatives.. paying Maggs 10 million a year is A LOT when the most he was looking at was mid-level exceptions.

GRADE: C ... Sign Maggs for 5 years/40-42 million and this becomes a B instead.

3) Signing Ronny Turiaf 4/17 million

This was a solid signing by Mullin providing the Warriors our own Milsap/Power. again like Maggette this was a guy who would tear us up. Glad he's with us now. He can run, block shots, play some defense, and has a solid mid-range shot. 4 million a year for a servicable big man is market value. Only negative is what does this mean for Richard Hendrix?

GRADE: B... solid player and gives us a reliable back up behind Biedrins.

4) Trading for Marcus Williams

I love this move a lot more than most. I liked Williams coming out of college and wanted the Warriors to draft him instead of POB. He got stuck behind Kidd and had a injury short his 2nd season in the league. However he is a pure point guard that can create for others, shoot 3s, steal the ball, and play little defense (sound familiar). Not bad for a future 1st rounder.

He'll be a back up PG to start, but I could see Nellie using Ellis and Williams together. Wouldn't be suprised if Williams eventually plays himself into the 6th man role.. leap frogging Buike as the 6th man and 1st guard off the bench.

GRADE: A... great potential at a need position for very little investment (lottery protected 1st rounders or two 2nd rounders).

5) Matching Azubukie 3yrs/9 million

Another good move for Mully. Buike will develop into a solid starter/6th man who plays within himself, can take it to the rack, shoot 3s, and play defense. Matching Buike also prevents him from making a division foe better (instant upgrade form their bench and potential starter there) and allows us more flexibility in the future as a potential trading chip or insurance at the SG/SF when Jackson's contract runs out and if Bellinelli never pans out. Maybe we're biased, but we all know Bukie will become a good NBA and getting a YOUNG rotation player for 3 million a year is a great move.

GRADE: A ... could be better than Maggette

6) Re-signing Monta Ellis 6yrs/66 million

What more is there to say? Monta is our future, he is our franchise and will be a real offensive threat unlike J-Rich because he has better handles and can jump off 1 foot. Monta Ellis can consistently get himself to the rim and  has great finishing ability, couple that with his mid-range game and you have yourself an elite offensive player. His defense just needs to improve and I believe Monta has the work ethic to become a better defender. At the end of last season he also showed better playmaking ability and actually feed Biedrins the ball more in Pick and Roll situations over BD. I would much rather have Ellis for the next 6yrs for 66 million over Gilbert Arenas. People may say we overpaid... but Parker signed for the same deal and Ellis right now is just as good as TP, IMO.

GRADE: A ... Ability to get to the rim, finish, and mid-range game make him a lock to continue becoming an ELITE offensive scorer.

7) Signing Anthony Morrow

Worth a gamble after what he did in summer league.

GRADE: C... just because his chances to make the final roster are slim.

8) Re-signing Biedrins 6yrs/63 million

Another young player locked up for market value. After years of suffering with Dampier and Foyle dropping passes... watching Andris play has been a joy to watch. He has soft hands, great feet, and a knack for scoring underneath. On the defensive side he is a very good rebounder and changes shots... if only the refs gave him some respect instead of tagging him with BS fouls. He's still very young at 22 and we haven't even see him come close to realizing his potential until Nelson leaves or commits to playing him for 30 minutes and running a few plays for him. Before we got Harrington and Jackson.. Biedrins was developing a solid low post game. He's one of best young bigs and he already has 4 years of NBA experience and is a proven double double guy in limited minutes.

GRADE: A .... he's getting paid less than Bogut. 'Nuff said.

Overall Grade for Mullin thus far: B+

For some this off-season could be seen as a disaster, but outside of overpaying Maggette (which is the main knock on the deal $$$$, not Maggette himself) Mullin did a great job this off-season, IMO. Sure we lost BD... but we were losing WITH him. You play to win Championships and Mullin has set the team up this season to be balanced, flexible, and and competitive even with so many young players. He has certainly learned from his mistakes in the past and us Warrior fans will be looking back at this off-season a sthe beginning of a new era... the Dubs as Contenders.

 

 

 

 

 

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Are you grading only Warriors signings and trades?

And excluding the 08’ NBA draft with the selection of Anthony Randolph and Richard Hendrix?

I like the work you put into this as well. A bit homer-istic for my tastes, but i’ve been a longtime negative warriors fan.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Jul 28, 2008 2:04 AM PDT   0 recs

LOL
i m a warriors fan -so i m naturally pessimistic

build a team & destroy the roof

by Lat We N Trash on Jul 28, 2008 2:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yep

I excluded the draft as you can’t fully grade it until they have played and not for many more seasons.

How would you grade the signings?

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by FLAxwless on Jul 28, 2008 2:14 AM PDT   0 recs

to add...

I DEFINATELY agree with 1) and 3)

Having Monta and Williams in the backcourt is a bad idea. Both are undersized and not highly rated on defense. That’s like having a revolving door into the lane for our opponents.

Just because everyone else pays big men big money doesn’t mean its right. Biedrins can’t rebound over boarding studs like tyson chandler or dalembert. He can’t make or never attempts 15 foot jumpers. Judging by his free throws there’s very good reason why. He makes his points sporatically. I think we should have explored more trading options with him

by balleerj on Jul 28, 2008 2:18 AM PDT   0 recs

I think we should have explored more trading options with him

trade for who? and for what? just curious what center out there could we have traded for or signed that can hit a 15 foot jumper ave. 10 boards a game and makes less $$$ than beans?

by Rach on Jul 28, 2008 8:20 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

if he's such a huge commodity

Then there should be interest in him right??
And there were several teams discussed as potential destinations for him this offseason.

by balleerj on Jul 28, 2008 3:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Beans is also one of the few pf/c’s that can run warrior ball well.

WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...

by JustSomeName on Jul 28, 2008 9:49 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I respectfully disagree...

Wait Marcus Williams doesn’t play defense? Did you watch any game by BD last year? If he wasn’t guarding Kobe Bryant on national TV he wasn’t guarding anyone.

As for Biedrins let’s look at the numbers against the big men you mentioned…
vs NO – 10.3 REBs/29.3 min/3 games
vs PHI – 14 rebs/38 mins/1 game

Now let’s see Chandler’s numbers…
vs GS – 16 REBs/37.7 mins/3 games
vs PHI – 11 REBs/32 mins/2 games

Dalembert’s numbers….
vs GS – 10 REBs/29 min/2 games (1 game against Biedrins had 10 REB/33 mins)
vs NO – 11.5 REBs/34.9mins/2 games

What do we see? Biedrins played less minutes against NO because Nellie likes to go small. If you give Biedrins 37.7 minutes with that current rebound rate [(10.3rebs/29.3mins) * (37.7mins)] , he’ll pull down… 13.25 rebounds. Not far behind Chandler’s 16… but you have to remember Chandler has help in a buddy named David West who rebounds at 8.9 per game. The next best player on the Warriors is… gulp, Al Harrington at 5.4 rebounds per game. What this means is Chandler and West just have to worry about Biedrins pulling boards while Biedrins has to fight Chandler AND West for rebounds. Put a solid rebound with Biedrins and he’ll become even better.

Against Dalembert played less minutes than Biedrins when he faced the Warriors but you factor Dalembert’s rebound rate against the Warriors in the 1 game against Biedrins (10rebs/33 minutes) you get 11.5… less than Biedrins rate of 14 REBs in 38 minutes. Against Chandler he had more raw board then Biedrins but he also averaged 5 more minutes per game and the difference is 1.2 rebounds. I’m pretty sure Biedrins would grab more than 1.2 rebounds in 5 more minutes of play.

So looking at the numbers Biedrins is right there with Dalembert and Chandler at rebounding and they all average around 10 million a year. Last I checked Chandler and Dalembert couldn’t shoot 15 footers either. Dalmbert is a better shot blocker, but Biedrins is a better offensive player (52% FG vs 62% FG). Give Biedrins 3 more years of weight training and he’ll be just as strong as Chandler he already weighs more (235 vs 245) and a second rebounder on the team and he’ll be just as good as Chandler… if not better.

Biedrins is well worth 10 million a year for a starting center with soft hands, great quickness, and can rebound. If he was on a non-Nellie led team.. he would actually be able to use his quick feet to get to the rim and convert at 63%.

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by FLAxwless on Jul 28, 2008 10:52 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree about Biedrins

AB was the 3rd best rebounder in the league per 48 mins last season, after Dwight Howard and Marcus Camby. How can you argue with that? Check it: http://tinyurl.com/645lvn

At $9M/year, I don’t think we overpaid for him at all and I definitely don’t think the Warriors should consider trading him. I actually think he has more offensive game then most people think. Watch him put the ball on the floor at the 3PT line and take it strong to the rack line against the Suns last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gecuxYF3J8

And don’t forget that out-of-bounds alley-oop play that Nellie started running for him out of timeouts last year. You know, the one where AB starts at the top of the key, inbound pass goes to Jackson, who throws an alley-oop for AB, as he’s already cutting down the lane.

He’s young and is a hard worker. I think he’s offensive game is only going to improve over the coming seasons.

by EternalWarriorsOptimist on Jul 29, 2008 9:39 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I like the content, but have to respectfully disagree with grade for morrow signing

I saw this guy straight out ball in summer league, and ya I know its summer league, but this guy can ball, and ya I know everyone is going to say wait and see, but as for grading the deal, even if he doesn’t make the team, I would still give it a A, because you took the chance away from other teams signing him and it costs us peanuts, its not a guaranteed contract so we have all the flexibility and risk/reward is very high in our favor. I wish we coulda pulled something like that to get bobby brown….

by warriorbum on Jul 28, 2008 9:55 AM PDT   0 recs

Agreed on Morrow.

I could see signing Morrow being an A, but like I said it’s hard to hand out and A because his chances of making the roster are slim. All the other moves are far easier to grade because we are dealing with players WE KNOW will be on the roster. Morrow not so. HOWEVER, I do like his game… anytime you can hit the shoot you have a spot on an NBA team, but we need to see how good Morrow can really shoot, because right now he is in a ridiculous streak.

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by FLAxwless on Jul 28, 2008 10:17 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

too tough to call

really, he didn’t play in enough games to say that he’s the lights out shooter everyone thinks he is just yet. he shot the lights out in summer league, but that’s not a large enough body of work to say that the guy’s going to win the 3 point shootout next year. it seems like he can play, but we can’t be sure yet. if he makes the roster and keeps teams honest at the perimeter, great, then it’s an A signing. until then, i’m comfortable with the C that was given.

by cap'n hack on Jul 28, 2008 12:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

its been a great off season

only thing that could be percieved as a negative thing was BD leaving but as a result, we have a young and much deeper team that will be together for a long time

by 3Kings650 on Jul 28, 2008 10:48 AM PDT   0 recs

as a long-time consistent Mullin critic

he did as well as could be expected after Baron opted out excluding the offer to Arenas, which fortunately for all of us didn’t pan out. Where Mullin missed was on reading his players – he should not have been that surprised even though we all were. That said, Turiaf is a good signing – addressing needs through FA and successfully snagging a RFA is rare these days, and Maggette will thriiiiiive in Nelson’s system. Did we over pay? ya, but we’re GS so we had to – it didn’t effect our RFAs either way. Re-signing them was a no brainer, as was matching KAz imo.

Williams – eh. He’s gonna back up PG & SG if nec but I wouldn’t expect too much from the NJ castoff we got for essentially 2 second rounders (I don’t think the first rounders will happen, and if they do we’ll all be happy to have been in the playoffs). Still, the deal was well-structured to not cost us too much if he didn’t pan out. Morrow is a very small gamble on a make-good basis. If you’re only grading him on those moves he did as well as could be expected imo.

by hardcore on Jul 28, 2008 11:22 AM PDT   0 recs

Did he really offer $100M to GA?

Or was it a ploy from GA’s agent?

I don’t know what you guys want from Maggs. When he starts living at the line while the opponents are trying to mount a comeback and our jumpers aren’t falling, you’ll be thrilled to have him around. To suggest that Maggs at 10M/year is a “C” and at 8M/year is a “B” is ridiculous. While I agree that 10M/year is a little over, if he could have been had at 8M/year, I’d be F-ing ecstatic. When and where is Buke going to become better than Maggs? True homerism on that one.

I think Mullin did a really good job this year in acquiring an underrated Maggette, stealing Turiaf from LA (you know they would have matched if they didn’t have to pay lux tax), getting M.Williams for a song, keeping the young talent, drafting two guys who’re currently doing exciting things, and picking up the Utah Revue MVP. A solid, solid offseason if you ask me.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 28, 2008 11:31 AM PDT   0 recs

mullin's moves

A from the ownership
F from me.

All his maneuvering will (to most fans’ eyes) at least keep us competitive thus selling tickets and fattening Cohan’s wallet.

However we are pinning our hopes again on the Garry St. Jean oft used line “internal development”.

I am just waiting for Jackson to do a Sprewell on Mullin so we can start clean and fresh. At some point this reclamation project has to stop.

warriors dont fish they hunt!

by VonteegoCummings on Jul 28, 2008 11:50 AM PDT   0 recs

Disagree

The Morrow signing is a C? Even if he doesn’t make the roster, is that a big deal? This was an all reward, no risk signing, because the worst that happens is we cut him. Anything he adds is a bonus.

by belilaugh on Jul 28, 2008 12:11 PM PDT   0 recs

if that's the thought

then give the signing a C+. if we’re lucky, he contributes marginally. everything good that happens is a bonus, but i don’t see much coming from him at all. by the same token, if i signed for the minimum it would be a C signing because i can’t hurt the team when i sat on the bench in street clothes, but there’s no chance of me helping either.

keep that in mind, mullin, i would be an average signing. hit me up if you’re interested.

by cap'n hack on Jul 30, 2008 12:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

'04-'05 anyone?

Am I the only one that thinks this offseason compares to the extensions and signings circa 2004-5 when Mullin signed a bunch of guys that had never proven they could win anything on their own to huge deals? (Murphy, Foyle, Dunleavy and Richardson). What’s he going to do when the Biedrins/Ellis/Magette squad tops out at 40 wins? This time, let’s hope he gets the ax. I’m ready for the post-Mullin era. Too bad we can’t ax Cohan.

by chacabuco on Jul 28, 2008 12:36 PM PDT   0 recs

I was Suprised by Biedrins Money

Especially because he I doubt it would have gone to Europe or at least did not have any concrete offers during negotiation. I think it would have been worth it to “sweat it out” for a few weeks for him to take 2 million less per season. Maggette would not have received 8 million a year from another squad so I think he got over paid. Ellis got what he deserved.

What does this reinforce? Players (BD especially) are not dying to play in the Bay Area. It has nothing to do with Mully, Nellie, or Cohen. It sucks but it is true.

by terryteagle on Jul 28, 2008 12:44 PM PDT   0 recs

Maggette wouldn’t have received $8 from any of the teams that had $8mil to spend. But that’s not the real equation for “overpaid” since we don’t have a real open market for players. The equations of interest are: would another team in need of a swingman consider his contract prohibitive such that we cannot unload him? Would an offer of less money have been enough to get him to come here rather than take a lesser offer to be in a more desirable situation (e.g. MLE from the Spurs)? Did spending that money preclude us from spending money now or in the future that would have better been spent? I don’t know the answer to those questions, but that’s the real test that we have to work with, rather than that the other 3 teams didn’t offer him as much.

by jae on Jul 30, 2008 4:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The biggest gamble of this offseason isn’t the Maggette signing—it’s the experiment to see if Monta can be a viable NBA point guard. I think there’sno way to fully grade the offseason without knowing more about that gamble. If Mully and Nelson are right, and he does it well, it will have been an excellent offseason. If they’re just hoping he can do it and he actually can’t, not nearly as good.

My gut is that it’s been a successful offseason. We retained the three young guys we really needed to retain for fairly reasonable prices. We made one big free-agent signing - overpaid some, but got a good player who’ll fit our system well - and one smaller signing—I happen to think the Turiaf deal was a good one for the price. We made a pretty good low-cost gamble of a trade.

There are no glaringly ugly pieces on this team. Maggette’s being paid a bit more than he should, but it’s not an insane price for his services… he may put some pretty gaudy numbers up under Nellie, too, so I’m not convinced that he’d be untradeable if it came to that. Al’s overpaid, but that’ll be an asset in a year, if not sooner. Everyone else is being paid roughly what they’re worth. It’s a pretty flexible roster… if the Monta-as-PG experiment fails, we should be in a fine position to rejigger. There’s value in that.

Still, it’ll be hard to call the offseason a smashing success if it turns out that Monta can’t hang out point guard. Time will tell.

by onlxn on Jul 28, 2008 2:57 PM PDT   1 recs

Well Said...

This year will truly hinge on Monta’s ability to learn the point. Like you said, if it doesn’t work out it’s not the end of the world long term, but this season could get ugly. I’m optimistic that it will work, but hey… I’m kind of an optimistic guy so take it for what it’s worth.

"...OlympicMike is clearly the Barack Obama of GSoM"-Sleepy

by olympicmike on Aug 3, 2008 10:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

pretty much

I pretty much agree with you. Some good moves and a lot of bad moves. There’s a lot of if’s that have to be decided before it can be said this offseason was a success.

by balleerj on Jul 28, 2008 5:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ya

I think that’s a great set of points made overall. Letting Davis go in the big picture made sense. Marcus Williams may turn out to be worth that 1st round pick. Signing Azubuike for 3 million makes sense if you’re trying to make smart business deals. Don’t enough about Morrow yet to make an accurate guage. I think re-signing Ellis AND trying to convert him to more of a play making PG is a large stretch for a kid who made a name for himself playing the small SG along with a bigger PG in Baron. Monta(yyyy) Ellis’ agent did a great job in negotiating the same way Rashard Lewis’ agent did a great job last year.

I don’t like Maggette myself ,but I’m not a Warriors fan so I don’t have to worry about him. I am a Kings fan so I’m not enjoying a duo of Jack and Maggs destroying the Kings off the dribble for 2 qtr’s at a time. Oh wellz. Excellent post YaHeard.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 28, 2008 6:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Okay,

this Biedrins is bad at defense stuff is getting way overblown. I’m sorry but I can’t even remember a single time he tried taking a charge from a point guard (maybe once or twice, but I think you are thinking of Al Harrington). The perimeter defense last season was atrocious. Every single replay they showed on FSN had every Warrior (besides Jackson) give up trying to stay in front of their man and just go for a steal, or leave their guy for a double team on almost every single play (losing a key element of the successful double team, surprise) and then Biedrins having to back away from the man or jump straight up (and he’d still get called) so he wouldn’t foul out and force Don Nelson to play O’Bryant or Perovic. Attempting to block shots would have been a huge risk with that lack of depth. You can’t flip that on him and call it a negative. Biedrins was in a no win situation, and he still turned out some good performances. Remember his defense on Garnett, or on Howard? He is an easy scapegoat for the Warriors defensive problems and no he’s not an elite defender, but in my opinion he is above average when on a team with passable perimeter defense.

Sorry if that didn’t make sense. I knew what I wanted to say but I didn’t know how to say it.

by belilaugh on Jul 28, 2008 8:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

it made sense. The warriors crappy defense has all been put on his shoulders. A lot of the time it looked like he was the only one even trying to play D out there.

by kinetic on Jul 28, 2008 8:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+100000000000

and if he ever did try to take a charge from a little man it’s only because he figured out that he’ll have a better chance of getting that call from the moronic refs who call a foul on him everytime he goes straight up for a block and gets jumped into

by AJC3317 on Jul 28, 2008 11:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

that's exactly what I mean

Biedrins just jumps straight up in the air with his hands up. That’s practically the definition of a blocking foul, from the NBA.com website:

A block/charge foul occurs when a defender tries to get in front of his man to stop him from going in that direction.

Biedrins jumps up to impede the offensive player’s body, he doesn’t even try to defend against the shot, he just jumps up to stop them. And that’s why he gets called for the foul every time.

You don’t defend the rim against smaller players that way. That’s exactly how Monta Ellis makes a living in the lane: he initiates the contact against bigger players, draws the foul, and sometimes finishes the continuation. You wanna see how a shotblocker does it, go youtube Mutombo or Camby. They don’t try to “body up” the guards or stop them in the air, they give space and reach for the block.

And I’m not going to give Biedrins a break on defense. He is the last line of defense and that is the center’s job, he’s the biggest dude on the court for us. I don’t give a damn that our perimeter defense was a revolving door, becase that should only inflate his amount of blocks. Ex. The Nuggets have had probably the worst perimeter defense the last couple years. Is it just a coincidence that Marcus Camby’s blocks have skyrocketed in the last couple of years too? He’s blocking 3.6 shots per game at age 34 and at the tail end of his career. Has he suddenly gained 4 inches of vertical? Been taking HGH under everyone’s noses? No it’s because he’s a shotblocker and he’s getting more opportunities to block shots due to the Nuggets’ lackluster perimeter defense.

Our perimeter defense is nearly as bad. Yet Biedrins isn’t even a premier shotblocker. He just gives up And-1’s. Lots of And-1’s with his jumping up into the air with his hands up.

And I’m well aware that shotblocking does not define a great shotblocker. But in this case, Biedrins doesn’t defend the post nor have quick hands. Okay he moves his feet well and can rotate on screens, I’ll give him that. But the next time I see the other team’s PG waltz by Monta, jump into Biedrins’ rigid jumping act, and then finish the continuation because Biedrins isn’t trying to block the shot, I’m going to think of Ellis’ 67mil and Biedrins’ potential 63mil and be very very sad.

by YaHeard on Jul 29, 2008 12:56 AM PDT to parent up   1 recs

Monta does not get to the line that much

He avoids contact and scores because he’s such a great finisher.

The definition you cite clearly states that the defender must be trying to get in front of the offensive player. Well, he’s already occupying the space. It’s really just hard for refs to make a judgment call on whether he’s jumping straight up or jumping at. He’s got to get his body close and then jump away to take that judgment call out of play.

Beans is not a “shotblocker”, he’s a defender.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 29, 2008 7:08 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Jumping straight up!

Isn’t getting in front of his man to stop him from going in that direction. If a player jumps straight up then he already owns that position. There fore it’s not a foul if the defender jumps straight up because he is already in front of his man. He dosen’t have to move to get in front of man. It’s a charge not a block, but you can’t take a charge so close to the basket, so it should be a NO CALL!!!

by Psion on Jul 29, 2008 1:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, that's how I see it too

Refs call you for angling your arms over somebody on the jump. Hands straight up from an established position is what they want to see.

"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002

by achiappanza on Jul 30, 2008 7:30 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The problem is that if you jump up straight

You’re expecting the ref to notice that you’re jumping up straight. In basketball, with 3 refs and so many things going on at once, and fouls that need to be called in tenths of a second, it’s asking a lot from the refs. I’m sure they usually let play go on, but sometimes they’ll get it wrong, more than once a game. If you’re jumping backwards, away from the player with the ball, you’ve got more of a shot to avoid the foul call. Thus, you need to move your feet a little more and then jump backwards into the position you want to be in for the block… hopefully Beans picks up this technique.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 30, 2008 7:34 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

defense on Garnett and Howard

From my memory, I can recall Al Harrington having more prominent defensive moments playing center than Biedrins’ has. I can remember Harrington’s surprisingly good post defense on Yao Ming and Dwight Howard. When Al Harrington impresses me more playing center than Biedrins does, there’s something not right there.

And it wasn’t like Biedrins was always in foul trouble either. There’s a reason why he only averaged 27 minutes per game last season, and only 3.5 fouls per game. It wasn’t as if Nelson was telling him “Hey try not to pick up fouls because I need your defense for 40 minutes tonight.” Nelson was gonna sit him regardless, I don’t buy the “to prevent him from fouling out” argument.

by YaHeard on Jul 29, 2008 1:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

biedrins was benched alot

Once he got into foul trouble Don Nelson didn’t care if he came back into the game most nights. If you owned him in fantasy basketball it was extremely frustrating to watch him get 20/20 one night then 7/3 for the next 2 nights.

by balleerj on Jul 29, 2008 10:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you’re severely misreading Monta’s market value. Beans’s too, but especially Monta’s.


If we can sign him at a bargain price, maybe like $7m/yr then sure go ahead. If not, what’s the worst that can happen? He signs for the QO and is forced to prove to us that he can run PG, the position he NEEDS to play in the NBA.

1) I agree with you in the sense that if Monta wants to become one of the ten or twenty best players in the league, he’ll NEED to do that at point guard. He doesn’t NEED to do that to be an effectively player. The current SG version of Monta, defensive warts and all, is already one of the thirty or forty best players in the league. He’s won one Most Improved Player Award, and was in the running for a second… it’s safe to say we haven’t seen his best yet. (Incidentally, he cut his turnovers dramatically last year, and his A/TO wasn’t out of line with a number of point guards’... I don’t think it’s an absolute given that he can’t hang there.)

Monta is worth $66 million even if he doesn’t pan out at PG. If he does pan out at PG, he’ll be close to max-level quality, and we’ll have saved quite a bit of dough.

2) What’s the worst that could happen if we sign him to a qualifying offer? Well, it’s pretty obvious—we’d almost definitely lose him.

It’s not like everyone in the league is going to be trying to steal him away anyway. Nobody even signed him to an offer sheet this offseason. Nobody.

Nobody signs anybody to offer sheets, because their original teams almost always match. You actually think nobody wanted Monta?

Two of the teams who are known to have badly wanted him - approached us about sign-and-trade possibilities - are the Knicks and Grizzlies. Under your scenario, we’d sign him to a QO and then let him test the free agent market as an unrestricted. He’d be able to choose from, among others,

A) the team in the league’s, and country’s marquee city, that loves him,
B) the team that plays nearest to his hometown, that can offer him a max contract, that loves him, and
C) the team that had just slapped him in the face with a qualifying offer.

If you ask me, Monta would be gone, baby… gone.

“Except,” you might say. “We can still offer more money than anyone else.” True—we could offer an extra year. So in other words, we could either let Monta walk, or maaaaaybe keep him by signing him to a max contract. But how is that better than what actually happened? We hold off on signing him for a year to force ourselves to pay even more, by entering into bidding wars?

We didn’t waste money by grabbing the guy now… if anything, we saved money. On the open market, a year from now, Monta would almost definitely make more than $66 million. Beans too… like others, I think you’re really underrating his defense, and consequently his overall value. You don’t toss qualifying offers at guys as good as these two. If you don’t think they’re that good, fair enough… but the Warriors do, and by all indications, the other teams in the league do, too.

by onlxn on Jul 29, 2008 2:09 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Monta Ellis

I’m not doubting that Ellis can score in this league. He’s proven he can score as a SG, he’s going to prove he can score as a PG, and he’ll probably score even more as the years go on. That’s not my problem.

Monta’s “defensive warts” are what bother me. Whether or not he pans out as a PG is quite a big deal. As an SG, 6’3” 175lb Monta can’t really guard anyone. In fact, in guarding PG’s this year, Monta can’t really guard anyone. Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Brandon Roy, Kevin Martin, and every other “normal sized” SG in the West would singlehandedly make sure that we wouldn’t get past the first round of the playoffs if Monta Ellis is trying to guard them. And I don’t think Marcus Williams can handle those guys either, just due to shear size difference alone. This is why Monta needs to be a decent PG, so we can play a normal-sized SG next to him.

And if we and the rest of the league soon discover that Monta Ellis really can’t run the PG position, and he’s a crippling defensive liability guarding SG’s, and he can barely guard PG’s, and his contract stands at 5 yrs and 55mil remaining and is immovable; then we’re in big, big trouble.

by YaHeard on Jul 29, 2008 3:06 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think most teams already know that Monta can’t defend SGs. Teams have scouts, they’re always evaluating talent… I don’t think that’d be news to anybody. Other teams would still be happy to have him at the price we’re paying.

1) NBA players, especially perimeter players, tend to get better at defense as they age. It’s extremely unlikely that Monta will stay this bad defensively.

2) A lot of teams have PGs big enough to defend SGs, negating a lot of the risk with Monta.

3) There are max-contract players who are worse defensively than Monta. I’d take Monta’s defense ten times out of ten over Steve Nash’s… Nash is a max guy, and deservedly so. Amare Stoudemire plays a more important defensive position than Monta, and is absolutely terrible at it… just about every team in the league would love to have Amare Stoudemire. Gilbert’s not a good defender. Rashard Lewis isn’t.

It’s easy to stare at a guy’s flaws until you just want to give up on the guy altogether. Monta’s defense is currently a flaw. He’s still enormously valuable - $66 million worth of valuable - with that flaw. A 22-year-old who scores that efficiently, who rebounds well for his position, whose passing is excellent for a 2-guard, who shows significant improvement every year in the league… people want that guy. The possibilities outweigh the risks.

by onlxn on Jul 29, 2008 8:32 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Quick question... do you think Kevin Martin is worth 11 million per year?

You think Kevin Martin is worth the dough?

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by FLAxwless on Jul 29, 2008 12:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not sure… he’s borderline at that price, I’d say. I AM sure I’d rather have Monta for the same amount. Monta’s three years younger, a slightly better rebounder, a significantly better passer. Martin’s a bad defender in his own right, and the areas in which he outpaces Monta – three-point shooting, free-throw shooting - are areas in which players are most likely to improve. Which brings up the biggest gap between them - Monta is still improving in significant ways year-to-year. It’s not nearly as evident that Martin is… what you see is likely what you get with him.

Martin’s a very good player, but Monta’s just as good, and much more likely to improve from here.

by onlxn on Jul 29, 2008 12:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They’re similar in value. Their rebounding is ridiculously similar. Monta’s ever so slight per minute advantage last year was due to a faster paced game with more opportunities. Martin’s rebounding percentage was a bit higher. The difference is not much. Martin’s “true shooting percentage” (a measure of how likely he is to successfully score on a per-possession basis) outclasses Monta’s, by quite a bunch, and Monta is no slouch at all. Monta seems to be the better ball handler and is younger and hasn’t shown that he’s hit the plateau of his improvement. I really cannot objectively pick between the two. Both are great players to have.

by jae on Jul 29, 2008 12:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Right. I’d take Monta because there’s a bit more reason to think he could improve further, but you’re in very good shape with either, weak defense and all.

by onlxn on Jul 29, 2008 1:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nash is not a max guy. Nash will make $12,250,000 this year. That’s far, far, far below the max a player can make.

by jae on Jul 29, 2008 12:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My mistake—I thought Phoenix extended him. Didn’t realize he was still under that original deal. Man, what a sweet signing for them.

by onlxn on Jul 29, 2008 1:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

yea!

and what a stupid no signing by Dallas. Their posible ring went to Phoenix with Nash

by Psion on Jul 29, 2008 1:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Last I checked....

Nash is currently playing in the perfect system for his abilities, and he still hasn’t sniffed a ring.

Oh, an puh-leeze, even if they’d somehow pulled out that series against SA after “the bump”, they still probably would have lost to Utah.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 30, 2008 7:39 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

phoenix

has come closer than you’re giving them credit for. they were the best team in the league in 2006/7. i’ll stand by that. san antonio was the only team that could have beaten them that year and they did through a lot of dirty play. if san antonio isn’t kicking the back of amare’s leg on dunks, hip checking nash, kneeing nash in the crotch and the like, phoenix wins that series and a championship.

of course, dallas’s potential ring went to miami with d-wade not to phoenix.

by cap'n hack on Jul 30, 2008 12:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's happened before

Bad Boys? Celtics of the 80s? Yeah, the Spurs are a little dirty. That’s how they win. They rattle their opponents. The only way to negate that is to have a crazy man like MJ who uses that to play better. The playoffs and the regular season are completely different.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 31, 2008 11:56 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

wish i could argue with that

but you’re right. and i think it’s an issue that the nba should address (not that series in particular, i’m comfortable with the nba not going back and giving the suns a championship retroactively). the suns were a better team than the spurs were, but in the playoffs, teams like the spurs are essentially allowed to do whatever they want. i understand the need to let teams play when it counts, but if amare and diaw get suspended for coming off the bench and not hitting anyone, and bowen doesn’t for kicking amare on a dunk, something that is incredibly dangerous, the league needs to look into some rule changes. dirty play should earn you ejections if caught right away, and suspensions if not. and it’s not just the spurs, how the hell does kidd not have to sit out the rest of the series after attempting to murder pargo on a layup attempt? that’s not a hard foul, that’s trying to break someone’s neck. playoff basketball should be basketball at it’s best, not worst.

by cap'n hack on Jul 31, 2008 12:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m talking about the year Dallas did make it to the finals and lost to Miami.

by Psion on Jul 30, 2008 4:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

and as for free agency

The “open market” isn’t as open as everybody likes to think. Big names rarely move around in free agency. The few teams that actually do ha