Point god, point fraud
Last week, Baron Davis threw the Golden State Warriors for a big time loop. Despite being owed over seventeen million dollars for the final year of his contract by the Bay, he decided to opt out in favor of a new, long term contract from the Los Angeles Clippers. The Clippers, despite the fact that it now seems they may lose Elton Brand to either the Philadelphia 76ers or those same scorned Warriors, likely would have been interested in Davis regardless; he’s a local legend, raised in South Central Los Angeles, and combines the sort of skill, exuberance, and flash that typically enthralls an LA crowd. It seems symptomatic of America’s two coastal capitals, LA and New York City, that a player will invariably be remembered for how they perform in the clutch, and that performance will be weighted more heavily against their complete body of work. In that regard, Davis will no doubt leave a positive footprint on the Clipper franchise.
I had the good fortune to see Davis play in person over a dozen times last year, as well as watching nearly every other game he played in years past for my beloved Warriors on TV, and I will say at the outset that he is fantastically thrilling. Knowing before a game that Davis would be playing point for Golden State became, for me, a source of hope. Not the general, reluctant, “aw shucks, maybe we can hang with these boys” sort of hope, but rather, the kind that heartens in a way that doesn’t need to be spoken. As an avatar for gutsy underdogs, you’ll find no better than Lord Baron.
The grab by the Clippers, though, seems uncharacteristic; Donald Sterling is known as an incompetent owner primarily due to his tight purse-strings, and at sixty-five million over five years, Davis is going to be making big money well into his mid thirties, and he has a troubling history of lower body injuries. Even last year, when he was lauded for playing a full, eighty-two game season, any Warriors fan can tell you that he was not fully healthy for some of that time. He played through aches and pains, which is admirable, but by year’s end his motor was clearly low on oil. His body is a world-class anomaly, a quick and fast guard bolstered by bursting muscle. But that very strength may be his undoing; even when in perfect physical shape, his bulky frame at times seems to be too tightly wound and heavy for his legs and his stamina to compensate. In any event, the inherent risk of this signing, especially given the torturous grind that is the Western Conference, suggests that Davis may have inspired some hope in Clippers management as well. This is the sort of signing a team makes when it starts thinking about championships.
During the NBA Finals, back when my Baron Davis “the city” throwback jersey was still temporally accurate (though anachronistic), I started pondering something as I watched Rajon Rondo and Derek Fisher square off. Neither of the two are what you would consider great point guards. Rondo is certainly more athletic, and can play exceptional defense, but his jump shot was so unsteady that the Lakers opted not to bother playing perimeter defense on him. Fisher, despite his reputation as a rugged, clutch veteran, is also a far substandard point guard by nearly any statistical measure, his biggest skill being shooting from deep, and his biggest weakness being most anything else sans flopping.
It fascinated me that during what seemed to be a year of unprecedented guard strength, the two teams that would be standing at year’s end would be two with such flawed players running the show. In both cases, the reason this was possible seemed clear; neither Fisher nor Rondo were truly running their team’s offenses. The Celtics’ triumvirate set the tone in the half-court offense, and Kobe Bryant certainly enjoys having the ball in his hand. It got me thinking, though- how many point guards have won championships while being the best players on their team?
If the Clippers manage to keep Brand, you could still make the case that Davis is the more important player; it is at the very least an argument to be had. If Brand leaves, Davis is the unquestioned star of the bizarro, Clipper Staples Center. But can a team win a title with a jack-of-all-trades, ball dominating point guard? A saunter through the history books doesn’t look promising.
Champion Starting Point Guards Since 1990:
‘08 - Rajon Rondo
‘07 - Tony Parker
‘06 - Jason Williams
‘05 - Tony Parker
‘04 - Chauncey Billups
‘03 - Tony Parker
‘02 - Derek Fisher
‘01 - Derek Fisher
‘00 - Derek Fisher
‘99 - Avery Johnson
‘98 - Ron Harper
‘97 - Ron Harper
‘96 - Ron Harper
‘95 - Kenny Smith
‘94 - Kenny Smith
‘93 - BJ Armstrong
‘92 - John Paxson
‘91 - John Paxson
‘90 - Isiah Thomas
This is a very interesting list for a few reasons. The first is that only two of these men could reasonably be argued to be the best player on their team, Billups and Thomas. Tony Parker did win the Finals MVP in ‘07, but you’d be hard pressed to find many people who would argue then, or now, that Parker is better than Tim Duncan, who is still putting up hall of fame worthy seasons. Jason Williams would be hard pressed to find a single NBA team he could start for today. Derek Fisher is more of an undersized shooting guard than a true point, and shoots a mediocre percentage at that. The only guy on that list who had what you’d consider a prolific assist average was Isiah, who averaged 9.3 per game for his career. If you calculate the career assist average for this entire list, it comes out to a paltry 5.9 assists per game, not laughably bad, but not what you’d expect from a great (or “elite”) point.
Now certainly, maybe you’re wondering where Scottie Pippen is on this list, since he was more “point” than Ron Harper. And that’s quite true. However, it speaks to my overall conclusion, that teams which place the heaviest responsibilities for production on a conventional point guard seem doomed to fail. Pippen, whether you consider him a guard or a forward, is certainly a peculiarity for that position. Similarly, Magic Johnson like Pippen was a physical force uncommon for his skill set. In a nutshell, the conventional wisdom regarding great point guard play (“the prototype,” a guard between six-one and six-three who can drive, pass, and shoot from range) seems to be a false idol in recent years. While John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Baron Davis, Chris Paul and Deron Williams’ ultimate achievements to this point amount to little more than epic failure, Derek Fisher is sitting at home polishing his rings.
So I urge a bit of caution to Clippers fans who are conjuring up visions of a Baron-Brand championship collaboration. In fact, I urge caution to Clippers fans who even think those two will guarantee a playoff spot. As I learned last year, Baron Davis can be thrilling, dominating, clutch and cool as a cucumber. Unfortunately, he can be all those things and leave you sitting in the ninth seed. He can save your soul and break your heart. But then again, so can many “dominant” point guards.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Er a little late on the facts mate! Brand is gone! and we got CM!
Baron is hosed! Either He or his agent just made the Gaff of the off season!
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Jul 9, 2008 12:22 AM PDT 0 recs
magic johnson and isiah thomas
two great pg’s…definately the two best players on their respective teams…..
i hear where youre coming from though…besides cp3 (never been to the finals), the greatest point guard in the game is Lebron James….I know, i know, he plays the wing…but cmon. dropping lines like 30 points and 12 assists.. LBJ is magic johnson, might as well throw him in the discussion with all the other point guards….
another thing…lately, people have gotten too hyped on point guards..ex. drafting derrick rose number one (though clearly not the best talent). I think cp3 just has everybody shaken..
bascally what im getting at is while point guards are important, big men and late game facilitators are the ones who win championships…ex. kobe shaq, ginobli duncan, wade shaq, then of course jordan… it’s always gonna be tough for a short pg to score at the end of games because teams clamp down, in which case the pg needs somebody to dish too…if you’re 6’6 though all you have to do is rise over the top. ask mj or kobe….
to sum up..the point guard position is really just a mentality. great players transcend that, and do what is needed…..so really, its not about who has the best point guard, its about who has the greatest player… o yea, having a great big man doesnt hurt either….kenny the jet was not a “great pg” but having hakeem allowed him to win two rings..why? hakeem was the greatest player on the court..
kinda baffles me how everybody is placing so much importance on the point guard position all of a sudden….....every one just seems to be jumping on the bandwagon
by BroyTheTruth on
Jul 11, 2008 11:13 AM PDT
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+2
To whoever posted, I think he did acknowledge Brand might be gone. This was a really nice article, though. Good evidence having a superstar point guard hasn’t been a need to win a Championship in recent memory.
by The Daydreamer on Jul 9, 2008 3:51 AM PDT 0 recs
Nice post. I wish it didn’t get buried under this clustercrap of semi-intelligible FanPosts.
The information you dug up about championship PGs is interesting. I wonder if the trend of mediocre assist averages would continue if you stretched that list back another 10 years.
It never occurred to me that one man could play with the faith of 50 million.
by imovermyhead on Jul 9, 2008 9:56 AM PDT 0 recs
The Warrior's future is being laid on the shoulder of Monte and Andre
but I will have to hold my breath until the ink is dry on their contracts. Mullins has said they will both be here for the future. He also said Baron would be back and that they would using the trade exceptions we received last year. I hate sounding negative, but sometimes I wonder how long Mullie will be leading GS. His big mark has been to swing trades that have saved him from his past mistakes.
by candlestickkid on Jul 9, 2008 10:14 AM PDT 0 recs
Well...
There were a lot of mistakes to clean up. Now he’s almost done. Just gotta wait for Foyle to come off the books next year.
Great, great read. This really puts into perspective that your PG should probably be a facilitator, and nothing more. If the offense starts stagnating, he’s needed to straighten things out, but if the offense is humming, always get the ball to your best player. It doesn’t take a lot of talent to pass the ball to Jordan on the wing, or give Shaq an entry pass. All it takes is a cool head and the knowledge of where to send the ball.
Thanks. Now, how does this relate to the Warriors? Do we get a serviceable PG to throw out there with Monta? Do we get a SG and keep a PG on the bench to sub in when things get stagnant?
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Jul 9, 2008 10:19 AM PDT
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also
did anyone of those teams that won championships have a 6 foot 3 sg??? Monta needs to play point!
by Agent Zero on Jul 9, 2008 10:22 AM PDT 0 recs
Or
We can end up being like the Denver nuggets. A good team with no true pg. They have iverson we have ellis. We have Jack they have Melo. They have KMart and we have Mags.(I know Kmart and Mags play different positions but they get paid a lot.) We got beans they have Camby.
by Jiri Welch on Jul 9, 2008 11:02 AM PDT 0 recs
I know we have younger players and a younger bench.
by Jiri Welch on
Jul 9, 2008 11:14 AM PDT
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LOL
I know Kmart and Mags play different positions but they get paid a lot
You could say that about anybody. And Jack and Melo are not comparable. You’re basically saying that we have an NBA team with players, and Denver has an NBA team with players, so they’re kinda similar. I think what you see in the championships is truly transcendent players (Jordan, Duncan) or 2-3 great players taking the championship. The only real anomaly is the Pistons. You also need players that know their role.
by Dubs fan in Boston on
Jul 9, 2008 11:55 AM PDT
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are the nuggets
the only team to average an absurd amount of points per game and not be entertaining to watch? ai is the only interesting guy on the team, and that only works because he’s such a competitor and generally really tough, so when they run an iso with him, something good is bound to happen. watching melo take the ball on the wing and score is really effective, but really boring. i hate that team so much. it’s sad, given how much i like and respect iverson.
by cap'n hack on
Jul 9, 2008 1:31 PM PDT
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Defense and dominant big men help too
I think all of those teams on the championship list also had these two characteristics in common: great defense, and a star big man who could be relied on to score in the post at will, or pass out of the doubleteam to a group of well-coached perimeter guys waiting for that very pass. The good D allowed those teams to slow the game down, which leads to less shot attempts and thus less assists; and the dominant bigs took the onus off of the point guard to generate shot attempts every time down the floor.
Unfortunately, the Warriors do not have: A) a dominant big man; B) great defense; or C) great team passing, which would help alleviate any distribution problems that Monta might have. Whoops—better cancel that trip to the 08-09 finals.
Hopefully their defense will be improved because of the added size, but they’re losing a good, sometimes great defender in Baron, and nobody has accused Maggette of being a first-team defender. Team passing will have to improve, which probably means more of a motion offense than the mismatch-isolation offense that has been their bread and butter the last couple of years.
by ffgolden on Jul 9, 2008 12:00 PM PDT 0 recs
You know what all of those title teams had
Every championship team had at least one All-Star (and we’re not talking Jamaal Magloire All-Star here) big man.
Having a top-notch big man makes winning a title much easier.
You want the real question?
What was the % of teams with a very good PG that missed the playoffs?
[Hint: There was one team, and they had the best record of any team to ever miss the playoffs]
Guys like Nash, Kidd, and CP3 get their teams into the playoffs every year, but there’s always at least one team that has a more complete package. That doesn’t make the PG position overvalued in any way.
by dprodigy19 on Jul 9, 2008 12:32 PM PDT 0 recs
So for the Bulls...
are you talking about Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman? Because neither of them were what I’d consider to be big men worth building a team around. Bill Wennington and Luc Longley, on the other hand… ;)
by sarchasmic on
Jul 10, 2008 7:49 AM PDT
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I'm sorry
I forgot about the teams with the GOAT and another Top-50 all-time guy at the SG/SF slots…
by dprodigy19 on
Jul 10, 2008 9:08 AM PDT
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its cool.....
big men are important too….the reason the bulls won was because michael jordan was the greatest player on the court, hands down… i think that should be emphasized. a lot of times it comes down to who has the greatest player…
watching the boston la series this year, i thought pierce outplayed kobe…...that’s what it came down to..sure great defense and all that.. but when push cam to shove, pierce outdid kobe…....
great players can transcend great defense…mj could do it, kobe could….at least not without the help of shaq…
by BroyTheTruth on
Jul 11, 2008 11:22 AM PDT
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Regardless of having a dominant point guard or not...
Each of those teams had players who could initiate the offense for you. Tony Parker is more of a score first point guard, but he was able to handle a majority of the playmaking abilities. Jason Williams and Gary Payton were capable of initiating the offense, but Dwayne Wade dominated the ball and made most of the decisions. On all the other teams, the primary ball handler (PG) was capable of initiating the offense through the team’s star player, whether he be Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajowan (SP?) or in Detroit’s case… through everyone.
As for the Bulls & the Lakers dynasty, Harper & Fisher were never the primary ball handlers. As you pointed out, Scottie Pippen played the point forward with Jordan taking as much time running the offense and Kobe played primary ball handler for the lakers. If you noticed, when Shaq left, the Lakers offense became stagnant. They never really had a dominant point guard and Kobe still handled the ball most of the time. Unfortunately for them, their offense was Kobe, hense the reason why they didn’t make it deep into the playoffs until this past season, where Kobe actually moved the ball around and had other players to carry the offensive load.
On these Golden State Warriors, our primary ball handlers are going to be Monta & Jackson. Both have an adequate amount of court vision and can initiate the offense. The biggest problem will be their insatiable urges to score. Jackson has jacked up way too many threes in the past, you all know what I’m talking about with the pull up trey. Monta has the tendency to drive and look for his own shot… or reset at the top when a defender has him locked. Baron Davis was the primary ball handler on this team and was able to distribute the ball despite being a good scorer. He did have a pass first mentality, which was forgotten in certain scenerios, but was predominantly true in most of the time he was on the floor. He was able to initiate the offense and put people in the position to score. That’s one of the reasons why we had five players average above 10 ppg with three of those averaging above 20 ppg.
With Baron Davis gone, the primary ball handling and initiator duties falls to Jackson and Monta. While I have faith in their ability to create good plays, especially with Nellie’s method of spreading the floor. Now I am not confident that they will ultimately mesh together as well as they did when Baron was the primary ball handler, as they will see increased time to make decisions not only for themselves, but for others. With Maggette now in the mix, I am also worried about chemistry and about the offense becoming stangnant, which would reduce the effectiveness of Beans’ constant movement (setting screens and floating around the basket).
Only one way to find out I guess…. 08-09 season here we come!
by Mr. Monday Night on Jul 9, 2008 12:35 PM PDT 0 recs
Sort of Mentioned...
Good post. I will say that there is another thing your chanpionship teams had. All the teams aside from the Pistons had at least 1 HALL OF FAME player on the team. Not an All-Star. A HALL OF FAME player. Some of those teams had 2 HALL OF FAME players on their roster.
Yeah, you might not need a super star PG to win a ring, but what sure lock for the HALL OF FAME do the dubs have in order to help them win a championship? SJax? Monta? Andris? The Celtics had at least one and his name is KG. Get us a KG type player and then we’ll talk rings.
by gabezgsw on Jul 9, 2008 1:07 PM PDT 0 recs
9 of those championships were won in the triangle offense
that use the PG in a different way than most offenses. That was glossed over.
by greala on Jul 9, 2008 1:26 PM PDT 0 recs
That's true...
...and perhaps I should’ve mentioned the triangle offense, but it still speaks to the mentality I’ve come to adopt about this, namely, that relying on the smallest man on the court to be a dominant force in many different areas can lead to spetacularly entertaining play, and I got to see that from Baron. But as long as we’re going to try to build a championship team, why not examine success history on this? The fact that so many of those guys were triangle point guards speaks to the overall point- basically, Jackson severely melts down what a point guard has to do. He’s been able to do that by virtue of his ballhandling 2s and 3s over the years, but it still suggests that the point guard position might be most easily filled with a solid but unspectacular replacement level player. I rather wish we’d snagged Mario Chalmers in this draft, but failing that, the prospect of Monta at the 1 isn’t concerning to me. Last year everybody was freaked about his turnovers, but he did improve las tyear in that regard, and if he improves at a similar rate I have no reason to think he can’t go for 20-5-5 next year at the point, and provided Jackson plays within reason and Maggette shows the same ungodly ability to draw fouls he has in the past, we should be in good shape. I expect Wright to flourish as well, as I trust Nelson will ave him starting by year’s end.
by Zack Vank on
Jul 10, 2008 3:44 AM PDT
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the prospect of Monta at the 1 isn’t concerning to me.
Even though the list is not all top rate ball handlers they are all a lot better handlers than Montay. and they were all playing on championship teams with much better players than Montay will have surrounding him. Those teams got their points from non-point players not from putting non-point players at point and expecting them to score. I’d rather keep the little guy in his natural position and let him do his thing then make him play out of position .Montay’s gonna get his points either way but the other guys game will suffer from poor ball handling and decision making. Point should make the whole team better not just be based on scoring ability or size. What would be the upside to playin Montay at point instead of 2 guard? Nothing other than we have him and don’t have a Boom any more? There’s lots of point guards around the league that we could get by trade and balance our team while we’re at it?
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Jul 10, 2008 10:27 AM PDT
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My concern with that...
...is that Monta will never, ever be physically equipped to play the 2 guard position. He’s a natural point guard, and I think he can play it well enough. Provided we have the other pieces in place that can turn us into a great team, Monta is more than adequate as a point. I worry that if he doesn’t make the switch to point guard now, he’ll be too old and set in his game to ever do it in the future, and frankly, I don’t relish the idea of always being one of these “gimmick” teams that has to have a big point guard to defend the other team’s 2.
by Zack Vank on
Jul 10, 2008 4:05 PM PDT
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Monta will never, ever be physically equipped to play the 2 guard position. He’s a natural point guard,
Only his size is better for a point guard, his skills are of the 2 position. He’s at least as big as Iverson who has no problem playing the 2 spot. If Montay is for real he’ll make it as a 2 guard, He doesn’t appear to have point guard mentality so even if he learned to handle better I think converting him would be a mis use of his speed and slashing ability.
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Jul 10, 2008 8:29 PM PDT
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Post of the year
Wow. Very interesting and informative post. Keep them coming!
by Spree15 on Jul 9, 2008 2:07 PM PDT 0 recs
all about the big man
If you look at the last 10 years, Tim Duncan and Shaq each won 4 championships. The other two champions were Boston with Kevin Garnett and Detroit with their Wallace duo. I’ve always felt this was an obvious point, but you need atleast one PF or Center who is top grade or atleast a great duo like Detroit had. At this point I don’t think Beidrins, Wright, or Beidrins are even good enough to be part of a duo similar to Detroit, meaning we need a top grade player.
2009 BOOZER
2010 (ETO) YAO MING
Until then we just a team trying to make the playoffs
by dancingchiapet on Jul 9, 2008 2:18 PM PDT 0 recs
Fun fact that I noticed last month: the Finals from 1999 to 2007 involved either Duncan or Shaq, and the 2008 Finals is the first in a while to revolve around premier swingmen and forwards rather than dominant centers (I consider Garnett and Gasol to be “really tall forwards” rather than classical big men).
by J-Triumf on
Jul 11, 2008 1:34 AM PDT
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looks
we need a damn pg. i’m pretty sure that monta can’t play point for shit. he could score, but handling and passing the ball? Honestly i don’t know if that would work all at. trade Al for hinrich. They made the same amount of money per a yr. Now he could run point. He is not BD, but I rather have a pg that could handle and pass the ball. he could get you 2 steal per a game. also, he could give you 16 ppg too. so, Hinrich for harrington seems right. hopefully, the bulls goes for it.
by warriorfan4life on Jul 9, 2008 4:43 PM PDT 0 recs
Copying the method that won the last championship is a good way to show that the method doesn’t follow a universal rule.
The thing championship teams seem to have in common is that they have very good players, usually a player or two who is substantially better than very good.
So now where do we get that substantially better than good player?
by jae on Jul 9, 2008 4:49 PM PDT 0 recs
Good POINT. no pun intended...btw long live Ron Harper!!!
We don’t need no stinkin top tier point guard. Monta and Jacks can share point duties. Only concern is their handles during pressure situations. We need someone who can protect the ball and get it up the floor during presses. With Nellie’s offense, they don’t need a pure point, just a playmaker who can drive and kick.
We Believe!!!
by crossphaded on Jul 9, 2008 7:46 PM PDT 0 recs
Monta and Jacks can share point duties. Only concern is their handles during pressure situations.
Without a point guard it will be pressure all the time. Monta’s game will suffer and Jax will get pissed. It won’t be fun. After 3 years of Boom we’ve gotten complacent with the point position. Now that Boom is gone we’ll see how much work he really did. And No I don’t want to replace Boom with Hinrich, I want some dizzle, or at least a little dizz. How about Felton, Crittenden or Tinsley? Even Starbury would be better than watching Hindrich. If Montay is reallly gotta give it a try we should sign Jason Williams for one season to teach the kid chocolate.
by Skeptic con Urquell on
Jul 9, 2008 10:00 PM PDT
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Far and Away
The best ball handler on the Dubs is…CJ Watson. You are telling me that Monta and SJax can handle the rock in crunch time-SCARY! We all know how SJax dribbles off his knee like 5 times a game.
Man, Monta’s game is going to be handicap sooooo bad this year if he has to be the catalyst of our offense. Monta is good when he is passed to-not when he is relied on to generate the offense. Please please pick up a solid ball handler!
by gabezgsw on Jul 10, 2008 8:59 AM PDT 0 recs
Regardless of whether we believe in the PG
spot or not, other teams in the NBA believe in the PG Spot and their dominance and GS has to put out a player to guard those guys. And I think Ellis is terrible on defense, that alone should be enough of a reason to look elsewhere for an upgrade to that position.
by greala on Jul 10, 2008 12:27 PM PDT 0 recs
correct
ellis’ man is ALWAYS the one who ends up open on the wing hitting that killer 3. and im not joking, it’s his man every time that kills us.
by Foulacy on
Jul 10, 2008 1:29 PM PDT
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I'm placing my faith...
...in the sink of swim mentality. If his defense doesn’t improve, well then, we’ll know it isn’t working. I’m hopeful that as the responsibilities increase, he’ll rise to the challenge.
by Zack Vank on
Jul 10, 2008 4:09 PM PDT
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The Warriors will be fine
First, I do remember Ron Harper being the starter for the champion Lakers in 2000 and 2001.
Second, Ellis at PG is definitely reminiscent of guys like Billups, Parker and Fisher. Billups and Fisher originally established themselves as scorers, and Parker is a young speedy guy who was forced to adapt to high pressure situations quickly (i.e. starting PG in the Finals as a rookie). Considering his age and that he came straight out of high school, it’s best that Ellis learn new things now instead of later in his career. Switching positions will be better for both him and the team in the long run, especially since the team has apparently been preparing for the long run for quite some time.
Third, we can do fine without Davis running things. We made the playoffs in 1994 despite our star PG (Hardaway) not being around, and our current team is similar to that roster: a veteran shooter (Mullin/Jackson), a dynamic leading scorer (Sprewell/Ellis), a flurry of young big men who can move and finish (Gatling, Owens, Alexander/Biedrins, Wright, Randolph), and Don Nelson as the coach. Of course, the ‘94 team didn’t see tight competition like this year’s team, and we don’t quite have a present-day equivalent for Webber, but certain elite players are showing their age/mileage…don’t expect the Mavericks or Suns (look, two superstar PGs) to make as much noise in ‘09 as before.
I’m just like everyone else here when I say that I wish Baron didn’t leave, but the remaining team is still far from horrible, and things can still be on the rise for the suddenly younger and healthier Warriors in the near future.
by J-Triumf on Jul 11, 2008 1:18 AM PDT 0 recs















