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Interesting to ponder...

China1_tiny by JakeGittes on

Looking forward to the upcoming season, I began to wonder how Nelson will assemble the team with all of the new pieces acquired.

Kelenna Azubuike - How will he fare with 25+ minutes a game and a new role? Nelson didn't play him enough. With such limited time last season, Azubuike rarely stepped out of his element in attempt to take over a game with a high volume of shots. Not that his confidence wouldn't allow him to do this, rather he allows the offense to simply come to him, allowing it to flow instead of anchoring it with indecision, or sabotaging it with questionable decisions. His rebounding ability is excellent, and he's strong enough to defend the post.

How he fits in - I think Nelson would be wise to give Azubuike alot of time at the 3, playing him next to Marcus Williams and Monta Ellis in the backcourt, and Turiaf & Biedrins protecting the basket. Why? Because Azubuike complements Ellis' game so well, they both rebound the ball, and with Ellis and Williams driving, Buike will get alot of open 3's, which is why his outside shot must continue to improve. The high pick n roll will result in an open look to Azubuike on the weak side from 3. He and Ellis are among the better rebounding guards in the NBA.   

 

Turiaf starting?

Should Ronny Turiaf start over Al Harrington? I think it is important for a team like the Warriors to come out aggressive on offense, and Al is more capable of providing the points. Turiaf offers them an entirely different complextion. The balance should defer through the relation of the point guard. Personally, I would rather have Turiaf on the court while Ellis is playing point, and I would want Harrington when Marcus Williams is running the action. Why? Ellis is going to put up jumpers, he's going to finish at the rim, preoccupying the opposing big men, freeing up Turiaf to clean up after him, and accept the offerings from the off. rebound gods. The energetic power slams, taken by the little drop off's Monta leaves him.

Harrington, on the other hand, would be better off with Marcus. Why? Williams is obviously the better passer on the team. He's going to allow Harrington to shoot comfortably in situations where he is left open for that split second or two. He makes that pass, that kick out that maybe Monta overlooks, allowing Harrington play to his value.

CJ Watson?

I've got an inkling that CJ is going to get beat out by Williams. I think all of us do. The real question may be; Would you rather have Kosta Perovic or CJ Watson on your team?

Biedrins' jumpshot

Does the new contract obligate Andris to a heftier offensive role as well? I hope so. You already know about the FG%, we've all watched AB regularly convert under the basket when he's given the ball. Firstly, he can *catch* the ball, something Erik Dampier, and Adonal Foyle couldn't do to save their lives. If he develops a go-to move, and a counter move, he could become a great low post scoring threat. Some are skeptical because of his lack of offensive moves, but we've seen some nice things already from Andris.

1. He always knows where he is on the court. Something Jamison did well.

2.He turns the shoulder well, using his quickness to leave his defender. He must learn to feel his defender's weight, and when to make the move. Maybe get Clifford Ray back to coach him.

3. He has an excellent turnaround hook(Jamisonesque). How quickly does Andris snatch an off. board and put it back in? If he can attatch that to the end of a low post move, maybe a step around and an upfake.

4. He uses the crab dribble well, rarely has it stolen, and finishes on the opposite side. He does this extremely well.

His hands, his agility, his quickness off the ground, and his amazing touch around the basket, I think it will be interesting what he does with more touches this season. Andris has mentioned his developing of a 10-12 jumper. It is hard to imagine Biedrins pulling up for a shot.

How do you think Biedrins will contribute this season offensively?

How many points a game could he average?

 

Turiaf and Biedrins

It was mentioned that Ronny Turiaf is an underrated passer. It is evident that Andris Biedrins posesses some of the best hands in basketball. But most importantly, both are the most likeable, humble, and charismatic young big men around. I expect the two of them to become good friends, and as they grow to become better players, I think Turiaf will recognize Andris around the basket, and maybe be a player who averages around 3 assists a game for us. I do not think Turiaf is a starter, or should be...but I wouldn't mind trying it out this year until we find our 4.

How do you think Andris and Turiaf will play together? Could they ever start together on a team like the Warriors?

 

Belinelli?

How will Marco Belinelli get significant playing time, on a team with Corey Maggette, Kelenna Azubuike, Monta Ellis, Marcus Williams, and Stephen Jackson? I am not down on Belinelli like most are, but I don't see how he logs more than 5 mins a game with all of these guys playing ahead of him.

How do you fit him in?

Wright, Hendrix, Randolph, Belinelli, Morrow

Who will have the best season and why?

I believe that Anthony Randolph will definately have the chance to succeed this season. Most believe that this is Don Nelson's last year as the head coach. If this is true, and Nellie is as high on Randolph as he leads on, do you think he wouldn't want to play Randolph now, since he won't be around for the ultimate result?

 

Ellis and Maggette

I am not so sure the two of them will play well together. Corey is known as more of a selfish player who looks to score when he touches the ball. It has been said, that the team this year must be unselfish and pass the ball around in order to succeed.

Do you think Ellis and Maggette are capable of spreading it around? Was Corey as selfish as was last season, due to the injuries suffered by the Clip's?

 

Al Harrington

What kind of player should Harrington be for us this year?

Would you rather see him work towards finishing the season shooting over 40% from 3? Or would you rather see Al boldly try to embrace his mid-range abilities this year, and abandon the focus from deep?

How would he be most effective?

Thanks for reading, I leave you with this thought...

 

"I've just got to go play my game," Marcus Williams said. "In New Jersey, I was playing not to make mistakes, trying to stay on the court."..........Let's all hope he can play his game well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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As far as starting 4 goes.

Nelson will start Harrington the majority of the time, although he may start Wright or Turiaf against New Orleans. It really depends on who we play whether Turiaf and Biedrins will start together. Definitely for Utah, San Antionio, Houston and the like. We need a backup center. I think Nellie would love to start Wright if he is ready because he can bring Al off the bench, possibly as a 3. Al’s game is to shoot the ball from deep when he can, thats what he does and will do. And being that Jack is our only other starter with a legit 3 (as far as I know) then thats fine that he does that. Especially with Monta and Maggs’ short range games. Ellis and Maggette will play well together because Maggette knows he is on a team where team ball is required and Monta is the man, he said it himself. Plus I believe Maggette hogged the ball last year because he was the only legit player on the Clipps and he was playing in a contract year. Belli will get minutes because they need as many people playing, this year is about depth. I think Nellie goes 4 to 5 deep off the bench regularly so we need bodies with game, and he is our third option for guard and depending on how Randolph develops and how buike is used he is our first option as a sg. Also if Williams is a disappointment and Watson isn’t pulling weight, Belli will see time as a pg.This year is going to be exciting or disappointing depending on how this team meshes and how the youth develops. I cant wait for it though. Go W’s!

by droppin gsw _knowledge south bay style on Aug 17, 2008 1:51 PM PDT   0 recs

id go with

bwright starting at the 4..then have al and turiaf come off d banch. so that the potential of bwright is realized, and if that doesnt work, we would have scoring and energy off d bench in al turiaf. we dnt need al in d starting 5 for scoring coz we have magette sjack and monta to take the shots. bwright would be an excellent reciever of drop off passes and could be a sneaky offensive rebounder coz the D will focus on our 3 main guns.

by japoyy on Aug 18, 2008 9:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

wright

is not a starter. maybe in a couple years he gets there, but he’s not there yet. i wanted him to get more playing time last year, and he should play more this year, but he certainly should not start. it makes no basketball sense, unless we’re tanking the season for draft position. he’s just not as good as turiaf or al. i’m interested in seeing him develop, but i just don’t see what he’s really good at yet and to start in the nba don’t you have to be really good at something? or at least kind of good at everything? he fits neither description.

and no we don’t need al for pure scoring ability, we need him to be another shooter to spread the defense. if biedrins and wright are both crowding the lane, monta will suffer. same goes for turiaf. you can’t run a team with only slashers and guys who can’t function away from the basket. it’s a great way to see your slashers get rejected on drive after drive. and finally, biedrins already does all the things you want wright to do. why have wright receiving dump off passes and getting putbacks when biedrins already does that superbly? he’s just adding a body to a crowded lane if that’s the only reason he’s out there.

by cap'n hack on Aug 19, 2008 12:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

hahahah

a biedrins jumpshot?! how about a post move then we can work on the jumpshot…

by Foulacy on Aug 17, 2008 2:20 PM PDT   0 recs

Love the post

Having Baron last year was great, but it left us with an easy view of what kind of success to expect. A high powered scoring team with no inside presence… maybe a first round playoff team. This year, so many new acquisitions and developing youngsters, the sky is the limit. We have bodies (like Turiaf and Hendrix) to muscle up with the Boozers of the league. We have a new leader on our team, and added depth in the front and back court.

We have no idea how this team will mesh, but its safe to say we ARE better than last year, even with the loss of Baron. It will be interesting to watch this team develop and see who stands out.

GO WARRIORS!!! Less than 80 days til tipoff ya’ll

by Gurthy on Aug 17, 2008 2:40 PM PDT   0 recs

The sky's the limit...

… and the dank, musty cellar is the other limit.

I’m not sure it’s at all safe to say we ARE better than last year. I’m totally excited about the prospects of Monta at PG, but I also acknowledge that it could be a failure. And while I’d love Turiaf or BWright to steal TMNT’s starting job, I’m not sure either of them has what it takes to be an above-average NBA 4.

However it all shakes out, this team is probably going to need a little time to gel. I’m not so into predictions, but I think if anything’s safe to say, it’s that we’re going to have a few growing pains. It’s also probably safe to say that, during these growing pains, the usual GSoM suspects will preach patience and overrate our “promising young talent” [raises hand]; and the usual suspects will howl and moan blame Mullin and Cohan for breaking up our budding championship team.

II agree that if nothing else it’ll be interesting to see how it all develops. That has to count for something … right? Anyway, great diary, Jake. You get a rec.

Don't mess with ^^^^ !!

by Sleepy Freud on Aug 17, 2008 5:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

spoken like a true skeptic!

Till I go pee
Live life at KMart
Foot in mouth chasin me

by Skeptic Con Urquel on Aug 17, 2008 9:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

if nothing else it’ll be interesting to see how it all develops. That has to count for something … right?

  Not in this game. They keep score not interest totals.

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 18, 2008 12:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

… and the dank, musty cellar is the other limit.

 I spent the weekend at Sacramento and their paper says the Kings are gonna be in the cellar, they rank the warriors and clips one level above the Kings.

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 18, 2008 12:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

its safe to say we ARE better than last year,

 We lose probably the third best guard in the league and we suddenly get better? Unbridled optimism is usually just an error in analyzing the data?

Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me

by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 18, 2008 12:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"Third best guard in the league"

Unbridled homerism is probably just an error in analyzing the data? ;-)

If you meant to say “point guard” you may be right , but only if you ignore durability and consistency. In any case the gap between BD and Monta (if there even is one) is much smaller than the gap between BD and CP3.

Don't mess with ^^^^ !!

by Sleepy Freud on Aug 18, 2008 1:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"The gap between BD and Monta"

I agree that Monta and Baron are not that far apart as players. But, even though Monta will play a lot of PG this season, the Warriors aren’t really replacing Baron with him. In terms of minutes played, they are replacing BD with Maggette.

And that’s Skeptic’s point, is that the Warriors will be worse off without Baron this season, which is true.

by San Francisco Slim on Aug 18, 2008 2:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's probably true.

Unless Monta totally blossoms as a PG, which is always a possibility. Baron getting fat, regressing, or blowing out his knee is also a possibility.

Either way, calling BD the “third best guard in the league” is patently false. Which was my point. ;-)

Don't mess with ^^^^ !!

by Sleepy Freud on Aug 18, 2008 2:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Biedrin is who I'll be watching

I’m too lazy to go lookup the stats, but i believe every year Bean’s has been a Warrior his production has continued to go up, and yet for the last 2 seasons under Nellie, Beans minutes have actually DECLINED. Last season he averaged near a double double, something like 12pts a game, 9.6/9.7 boards a game and yet only saw about 26/27 minutes a game on average. That is ludicrous, Bean’s can do alot more for this team then Nellie is letting him, and he absolutely needs more floor time then he’s been allowed up to this point.

by kyzah on Aug 17, 2008 4:08 PM PDT   0 recs

WARRIORS interested in Rubio (well that’s what Hoopsworld says)
Rubio.
Anyway, Yea, I hope to see Andris Improve this year.
Nellie is always going to start Al.

Ronny Turiaf, the real face of the franchise.

by 61ixty on Aug 17, 2008 4:28 PM PDT   0 recs

Here's what I think

Even though everyone’s been getting on Maggette’s case about being a selfish player, you can’t really be a selfish player if you’re avg. 3 apg. Sure that’s a low amount of assists, but who on the Clippers could he actually pass it to? Brand was injured and so was Kaman ( who btw had a phenomenal year) for almost half the season. Here he has Monta,Jack, Beans, Buike, etc. Players that can can score. I don’t know how the lineup is going to look like. I don’t think Maggs would be pleased coming off the bench. lol Turiaf shouldn’t start this year. He’s a high-energy player and we should bring him in should we need help on the boards or if we have a mismatch on Al at the 4 or one with Beans at the 5. Andris would move to the 4 playing a tall PF, while Turiaf would play a slightly shortened 5. I think Ronny will do well off the bench, possibly seeing most of his minutes at sliding into the 5 slot, so Beans can play 4. This also opens more Block opportunities for both players. Turiaf will get the usually slower C’s and Biedrens will get the usually shorter PF’s. BWright is going to come off and back up the 4 position. He doesn’t have enough body mass to post up as a 5, but he does have a nice turnaround jump hook and a nose for the ball. Marco will probably take up garbage minutes and play with at the 2 with Monta or Williams at the 1, either of them could take opportunity to rest up. I don’t see Morrow playing at all, they might even drop him. Anyways here’s what I see the lineup to be:

1. Monta Ellis/ Marcus Williams/ Marco Belinelli
2. Corey Maggette/ Kelenna Azubuike/ Marco Belinelli
3. Stephen Jackson/ Anthony Randoph/ Al Harrington
4. Al Harrington/ Brandan Wright/ Ronny Turiaf/ Biedrins
5.Andris Biedrins/Ronny Turiaf

another possible one might be
1. Marcus Williams/ Monta Ellis/ Marco Belinelli
2. Monta Ellis/ Corey Maggette/ Kelenna Azubuike
3. Stephen Jackson/ Anthony Randolph/ Corey Maggette
4 Al Harrington/ Brandan Wright/ Ronny Turiaf/ Andris Biedrins
5. Andris Biedrens/ Ronny Turiaf/ Al Harrington

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Aug 17, 2008 6:30 PM PDT   0 recs

dude

wow.. the first three paragraphs are ridiculous… that lineup sucks… kellenna doesn’t have the skills to take over a game lol. Kelenna is the most overrated player on the warriors… why… cuz everyone thinks he is so underrated and everyone loves his “underdogness”

by Agent Zero on Aug 17, 2008 9:56 PM PDT   0 recs

On the contrary...

Nobody said Kelenna has the skills to take over a game. That is yet to be seen. However he has shown an extreme amount of maturity for a young player, and what I mean by that is, take for example when Kelenna was not getting much burn during a particular stretch of the 2nd half of the season. Nelson would put Azubuike in the game for the first time in say, three games. There are two ways I would expect a young player like Buike to react in this situation…

1. Play overly aggressive, trying to do too much in too little time, thinking it’s going to impress the coaches into giving you more playing time if everything goes well….

2. Play scared, pass up wide open shots, lack the confidence to take weaker defenders to the rim, disregard mismatches, lose focus on his man ETC….

This is not something Azubuike did. He is extremely composed, remains focused, and if the shots aren’t going in, he’s going to make cuts to the rim without the ball, he’s going for offensive rebounds to pick up the scraps, and he’s going to work on D and rebound X’d shots. Nobody is arguing Azubuike as being one of the best players on the team. Yet he is an extremely valuable piece of player.

Rarely do you find a shooting guard who accepts a bench role, and does not serve as a risk or liability. He is not going to come into the game with the mentality of a brick layer or a chuckster… He’s going to play within the parameters and do what he knows how to do best. Compare him with a cold Marco Belinelli, and you’ll witness the vast difference come the final buzzer.

Lastly, my reasoning for inserting Azubuike in a lineup with Monta Ellis and Marcus Williams is simple.
1. The Warriors will run the high pick and roll the majority of the time, indubatibly.
2. This will often result in a Monta drive baseline, or Williams drive down the middle.
3. This will often result in a wide open Azubuike corner three, weak side.
4. Kelenna does not miss often when he’s left open. Especially from the corner.
5. And especially when death is on the line…He is ice.
6. Lastly, Azubuike and Ellis together form one of the better rebounding guard tandems in the league.

by JakeGittes on Aug 18, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Good points about Buike

A couple of things though. Buike played in 81 games last season, so he acutally never went 2 games without playing. But still you’re point is well served. He played a lot more minutes early in the season, because he started when Jackson was suspended. Buike then went through periods where he didn’t play that many minutes. I agree, that it didn’t seem his quality of play wavered during this time.

Your point #6, doesn’t make sense because you’re arguing why he is good to play at SF. Well, except that as a good rebounding guard, he’s still a decent rebounding SF.

Buike is what he is, a solid slightly below average NBA player, who is young enough (25 in Decmeber) to improve. He is not spectacular, but very decent in virtually every department. Perhaps his one weakness is defense vs. fast wing players. But Nelson likes him, because he’s strong, fairly athletic, shoots threes and can get some nice match ups, particularly at the 3 position. Nelson will probably play him 6th man minutes, which is what he deserves.

by San Francisco Slim on Aug 18, 2008 1:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ellis/Buke/Williams is only going to happen if we have injuries and/or we're going small with Jack at the 4

Seriously, Buke & Williams over Jack and Maggs? I’m sorry, but I stopped reading the original post after that first paragraph or two. Flipping through the comments to see what others had to say…

He is not going to come into the game with the mentality of a brick layer

Nobody in the NBA is, nor thinks his job is to be, a bricklayer.

On your “reasoning”, #1 provides no support for your line up. In fact, #1, #2, #3, and #4 are all one argument: The Warriors like to run the pick and roll, Monta/Williams will thus be driving, and it’s good to have a good 3 point shooter like Kelenna out there on the wing to kick it to. #5 is a fallacy. Finally, on #6, if Kelenna is playing with Marcus Williams an Monta Ellis, he’s playing a Forward position, and he is NOT even part of the “guard tandem”, and he’s not a particularly good rebounding Forward.

It seems like the basis of your opinion on Buke is that he’s not Belinelli. This is true, but that doesn’t make him better to have around than Jack, Maggs, or Al Harrington. Also note these shooting percentages:

Buke .364
Jack .363
Maggs .384
TMNT .375

Maggs & TMNT shoot the 3 better, so they’d be better to have in the corner for a 3 (ignoring other things like Maggs getting to the line constantly, Al being a passable post defender, etc.) and Jack shoots the 3 comparably while being a FAR SUPERIOR defender.

Finally, I submit this to you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo5DUPKderw

Notice who’s ankles Durant breaks without using his dribble. Buke is good at his role, but he’s not anywhere near “deserving more PT” than he’s already getting.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 18, 2008 2:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Going small

I previously wrote that Buike would get more minutes because invariably Nelson will go smaller than expected and Buike plays well as a 3 in Nellie’s system. But I brain froze and forgot about Jax. I think when Nelson goes with the the two PG line-up, Maggs will play 4 and Jackson the 3, which leaves Buike out.

Buike played about 20 minutes a game last season, discounting the period when S. Jax was suspended and I guess Buike will play abut the same this season. Unless Jackson falls off or gets suspended again.

by San Francisco Slim on Aug 18, 2008 2:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"It seems like the basis of your opinion on Buke is that he’s not Belinelli."

“This is true, but that doesn’t make him better to have around than Jack, Maggs, or Al Harrington.”

I’ve got a sneaking suspicion you misunderstood the meaning of the post regarding Azubuike.
You seem to think it meant, “I love Kelenna with all my sweet little heart, therefore I’m ready to play him over Jackson and Maggette…because he’s younger…and I love him..”

“Maggs & TMNT shoot the 3 better, so they’d be better to have in the corner for a 3 (ignoring other things like Maggs getting to the line constantly, Al being a passable post defender, etc.) and Jack shoots the 3 comparably while being a FAR SUPERIOR defender.”

I nor anybody else was arguing Azubuike to be a better player than Corey Maggette or Stephen Jackson, or that he should take their position. Did I say that Kelenna should be starting? Did I ever compare him to ANY of the players you mentioned? No. I compared him to Belinelli, of whom you conveniently alleviated from the “examples”, so I might see how you warped the correlation, I guess. Corey Maggette is a far better player at this point, as is Jackson. That’s very obvious, so I applaud your keen sensibility. Is Azubuike going to be better than Harrington this year? I don’t know. Are they comparable shooters from long distance? I think so. Harrington slightly shoots the better percentage, but he also took far more shots. Does percentage improve with volume?

You ever heard of a 3 guard rotation? It’s fairly simple, you’ve got your 1 and 2 on the floor, and your 3rd guard coming off the bench. In the Warriors case, it looks to be a 4 guard rotation this year(Ellis,Williams,Magg,Azu)…and that is discounting Belinelli, so possibly a 5 rotation, if such a thing is even possible. Barring the possibility of a trade, it is fair to say that Nelson has some important decisions to make as to whom will take the majority of the back up minutes at the 2 slot.

For a BENCH line-up, (I apologize for not making this even more obvious) I thought it would be interesting to see how the following guys blend: 1.Williams2.Monta3.Azu4.Turiaf5.Biedrins

As for my “reasoning” regarding Kelenna, my 1-6 steps were more analogically based on why I think he would do well not only contrasting Ellis and Williams as ballplayers, but delving into exactly how he serves within our offensive system as well. Number 5 is a fallacy…or perhaps an attempt at humor? I forgot trial and error time confines me everywhere I go…thanks for the reminder buddy boy;) #6 did not make any sense. It’s easy to parrot SFSlim, who did well to point that out, and he’s right. I’ll change it, Monta and Kelenna together, make a fine rebounding backcourt. When K comes off the bench to play with Monta, they are one of the better tandems on the glass.

Bricklayers and Heroes, whatever
Nobody has the mentality of a bricklayer in the NBA. Yes, true, nobody would take pride in being a bricklayer. But they are around. Being a Warriors fan for the last couple decades I’ve seen monuments built by the blue and gold clothed bricklayers of old. These are usually players who believe that they are better than they really are, and instead of focusing on the wider facets of the game, they become bricklayers or heroes, putting up any shot they can. Some go, most don’t. It’s easy to argue words like this. I can’t say what propelled me to dignify your ruse, but I’ll be sure to dot my i next time.

On the Durant YouTube clip…

I love how you said, “FINALLY, I submit this to you” Hahaha as if this were some crushing, finishing blow that would dethrone my dreams of Azubuike being a better player than Maggette, or Jackson, or whatever the hell you were talking about…

“Notice who’s ankles Durant breaks without using his dribble.”….Funny, in my experience playing the game, I’ve found it much easier for me, or any other player to get by the defense using triple threat. Especially if they crowd me. Fake left, shoot right… Any seasoned player or student of the game would tell you the same, so I’m not sure I understand why you believe this to be some accomplished feat by Durant. It would be much more difficult to dribble by.

Also, it appeared from the clip that Azubuike was set on denying the baseline, which is actually a smart decision, the correct decision, leaving Durant the option to drive into the help defense instead, which he did(regrettably).
But maybe you’d like to do a little more youtubing and bring me up a list of some of the great players Durant beat to the basket this year…What’s your point? Azubuike is a terrible defender because Durant beat him? That he’s not “ready” to get more PT this year? I would be pretty upset if he didn’t after giving him a contract.

I doubt you’ve read this far, given that you admit to not even reading the entire post you’ve spent your time arguing against. If your going to try and make someone look like a knucklehead, you should get a ruler, go through each line very carefully, then emerge from the men’s room with an argument that actually makes sense.

by JakeGittes on Aug 19, 2008 2:50 PM PDT to parent up   1 recs

Well said on the Durant clip

Michael Jordan got shook by Allen Iverson, was he a bad defender? Good offense beats good defense everytime. Azubuike is very capable of playing good defense, just ask Kobe Bryant.

by belilaugh on Aug 20, 2008 10:15 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Let's trade for Janeero Pargo!!!

He played one good defensive game against Iverson. In the playoffs no less! Let’s trade for Tim Duncan as our 3 point specialist, he made a “cold as ice” trey to tie up the game against Phoenix in the playoffs. Let’s trade for Jerome James, he had 11 games of solid play in the playoffs… so what if he’s sucking cap space out of the NY Knicks, he played 11 great games 4 years ago!!!

My point? I can find lots of examples where one player did something awesome once (or eleven times in a row). Show me consistent performance, then I’ll expect it to happen again.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 20, 2008 11:50 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes,

I understand that may sound a little hypocritical… but inconsistent performance (shutting down Kobe one day, steping aside for Durant the next) isn’t going to endear you to Nellie, and he’s not going to give you PT because he won’t know what he’s getting from you.

“Humm… Tracy McGrady is destroying Jax today. Who can I sub in for him? Buke? Naw… Wright is big and long (with upside potential) and gives a different look. WRIGHT! You’re in! I want you to lock down McGrady! If he scores again you’re going home in a body bag!”

Meanwhile, Buike’s sitting on the bench thinking “Why don’t I get any PT coach?”

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 20, 2008 11:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But I would say on average

he hasn’t been that consistent. The two instances you are referencing are extreme ends of the spectrum. Most of Azubuike’s defensive performances don’t stand out because they are pretty consistently decent. Nobody is going to talk about the time Kelenna held Josh Howard to 18 points (have no idea if this happened or not) because it isn’t memorable, good or bad. But my point is that Buke has not had too many notable defensive performances. His defense is not continually criticized like Monta’s or continually praised like Jackson’s. So I’d say he’s consistently decent.

by belilaugh on Aug 20, 2008 9:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

sorry,

meant inconsistent in that first sentence. I was watching Allyson Felix run and all the blood in my brain went somewhere else.

by belilaugh on Aug 20, 2008 9:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's hard to look at one opposing player's performance

There are going to be multiple matchups throughout the game, and there are pick/rolls etc.

Monta gets criticized more because he’s on the floor almost twice as often, and he does amazing things on offense and (right or wrong) you expect him to do great things on defense with his athleticism.

To this point, Buke only stands out when he does something good because there are no expectations on him. Every fan is just happy he’s there because he’s the undrafted D-Leaguer who’s contributing. Let’s watch this year and see what people think now that he’s not on a rookie minimum salary. We’ll see, I’m sure he’ll be useful…

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 21, 2008 7:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Monta’s defense suffers a bit from the basketball variant of Nichol’s law. [Note: this is not universal—of course there are good scorers who have also been fantastic defenders, but Dubs in B is right. Scoring makes him more visible and thus open to more criticism.] Yes, Monta wasn’t a particularly good defender and had some significant problems, but I also remember him being praised for defense as a rookie, largely because he was energetic and could pester the crap out of opposing point guards when they brought the ball up. Being on the court more means that he has to conserve energy and I suspect that Nellie just didn’t care that much to insist on some things so long as Monta could be a plus by scoring efficiently. Many of the errors in Monta’s defense are often those things that aren’t overcome simply by expending more energy. He needs to figure out how to avoid being taken out on a pick, what sort of spacing he should give the opponent. These things can be taught, if someone cares to teach him and insists that he learn.

by jae on Aug 21, 2008 8:20 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL

before I read your name I thought you were agreeing with me. You are pretty much elaborating on my point. You can’t judge a player’s defensive value with one play. I used the Kobe Bryant thing as an example of Azubuike playing very good defense.

On the contrary, I think he is a decent defender, but not really a known quantity defensively. One play certainly isn’t enough to decide. Just ask Kobe Bryant.

by belilaugh on Aug 20, 2008 9:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your assertion that Buke deserves more PT is in direct relation to Monta, Jax, Maggs, and TMNT

Thanks for cherry picking parts of my argument. Thanks for not addressing your assertion that Kelenna is the one we want with the ball in his hands for a 3 with 2 seconds left. And sorry for not realizing that we’re playing a “BENCH line-up” at the buzzer. I didn’t realize that… my bad. I’m sorry the youtube link came across as a “crushing, finishing blow”, it was meant to be a cherry on the top, or whatever. The feather that broke the camel’s back or whatever…

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. Let me try again, with numbers!!!

Where’s your minute breakdown to allow for Kelenna to “get more PT” without taking it away from Monta/Jax/Maggs/TMNT? Here are my conservative minute estimates:

Ellis (30) / Williams (10) / Watson (5)
Jackson (25) / Ellis (8) / Maggette (5)
Maggette (25) / Jackson (13)
Harrington (25) / Beans (5)
Beans (25) / Turiaf (18) / Harrington (5)

By player (Minutes counted):

Ellis – 38
Jackson – 38
Maggette – 30
Harrington – 30
Beans – 30
Turiaf – 18
Williams – 10
Watson – 5

Players left:
Azubuike
Belinelli
Wright
Randolph
Hendrix
Perovic
Morrow

Open minutes:

PG – 3
SG – 8
SF – 10
PF – 18
C – 0
Total – 39

He’s not getting many of the PF minutes (or playing SG while Jax/Maggs move over to PF) except for maybe 10 minutes in 20 games when Nellie wants to get crazy. So, unless you’re not playing Randolph, Belinelli, Wright, or Morrow at all, you’ve only got about 20 minutes left, which is what he got last year.

And this is all assuming that Nellie is smart with his starters’ minutes and doesn’t play Maggs, TMNT, or Beans more than 30 minutes a game and keeps Monta and Jax under 40.

Then again, maybe Buke was injured all of last season and better than he looked, maybe he’s perfected the corner and elbow 3, and maybe he’s worked on his team defense to become “the unmovable object”. But the other guys on the roster (notably Wright, Randolph, Williams, Belinelli, and Watson) have an equal chance of shining and improving, and taking more of the available minutes. Maybe Wright starts showing that he’s the unholy melding of Chris Bosh and Tayshaun Prince… Maybe Williams shows that spark he had in college… Maybe Randolph shows he can run the point and get to the line like Maggette at 6’10"… maybe Belinelli’s worked on his lower body strength and is ready for the NBA grind… maybe CJ turned into the next Azubuike and is ready to take on a serious backup PG role. And this is still just the competition for the 20-30 BACKUP PG/SG/SF minutes.

The bottom line is, the starters are going to get their minutes, and that’s a good thing. I’d rather have Monta, Jax, Maggs, and TMNT in their respective positions than Buke. That doesn’t leave enough minutes for Buke to get Manu-style (or even Stackhouse-style) 6th man minutes. As much as Buke is a good basketball player, he’s not going to “get more PT” this year because you can only play 5 guys at a time for 48 minutes and the Warriors already have 5 better players than him.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 20, 2008 10:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Shouldn’t we see if Watson gets a contract before assigning any minutes to him?

I don’t really think that the 5 position depth chart and minute allocation has much to do with how Nelson subs in players. There’s 240 minutes to go around on a team in a regulation game. How that gets distributed bears little resemblance to a depth chart.

by jae on Aug 20, 2008 1:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Watson is on the official roster on the official website and on espn

… but so is Croshere. We’ll see.

I agree completely on the depth chart… but other people like seeing it that way, and it’s also fair to say that there will be 1 or 2 “bigs” on the floor at a given time, and there needs to be somebody in the “primary ball handler/distributor” role at least. I also broke it down by minutes for players, for those that don’t care for positional association…

Ellis – 38
Jackson – 38
Maggette – 30
Harrington – 30
Beans – 30
Turiaf – 18
Williams – 10
Watson – 5

Total of 199, leaving 41 for the rest of the team. Do you think Buike is going to get more than half those minutes? I, for one, think that either Wright, Randolph, Belinelli, Hendrix, Williams, and Watson will show enough skills to take enough of the remaining minutes that there Kelenna won’t get on the court for more than 20 minutes. But maybe that’s just me.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 20, 2008 1:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Watson doesn’t have a contract. The NBAs various team sites don’t tend to update players until they’ve moved on to another team.

I just find the 5 position depth charts, so often posted, border on misleading if not meaningless. Putting someone as the third center means he’s buried somewhere between the end of the bench and downtown Bakersfield. Putting someone as the third off-guard can very well mean he’s getting 22 minutes a night.

Your minute allocation looks like it could be ok, though I suspect that Williams gets a few more minutes, Maggette perhaps as well and I’d not be surprised to see Harrington’s minutes decline. I do think that Azubuike will get solid reserve minutes. I don’t see his minutes declining and he was a 20mpg player a year ago.

I don’t have any faith that Belinelli will crack the rotation. He didn’t look like he was close to ready in limited time last year, his Euro league stats didn’t impress me that he has an all-around game to contribute, and his summer league performances weren’t all that either. Randolph’s an unknown as is Wright as is Hendrix. Watson needs the contract before I’ll entertain his contributions. That he hasn’t received one speaks to me. My guess is that he’s been offered the non-guaranteed variety that Morrow got, but is holding out for a season’s guarantee and the W’s aren’t yet biting, figuring that a gamble on an unknown may be worth more.

by jae on Aug 20, 2008 2:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Again

I never said Kelenna should be the one to take the last shot, nor did I ever say that he is more deserving of minutes than any of the projected starters. I’m not sure I understand your point. Yes, giving KA more time means less time for everyone else. By your logic, if I wanted to play CJ Watson 5 minutes a game, that would leave less PT for Monta, Magg, etc…so why bother playing CJ over any of them in the first place? Is that what you’re saying?

There is a difference between what I’ve said, and what you want me to say.

Me: KA deserves more playing time this year off the bench, with a new contract & role.

You: “Seriously, Buke & Williams over Jack and Maggs?”

Me: Kelenna is capable of hitting big shots for us, he is clutch.

You: “Maggs & TMNT shoot the 3 better, so they’d be better to have in the corner for a 3”

Now, responding to the 3 point percentages you thoughtfully posted for me, I do not see much discrepancy between Kelenna and company. You also seem to fail to recognize that percentage generally increases with volume. I will even go out on a limb now, and say that Harrington is not much of a better shooter, or player. Al fills a need, and his exceptional long range shooting gives our O breathing room, yes. Is he better than Azubuike? Is he worse? I’m not sure yet. It will be interesting to compare them this year, as I suspect their minutes will be somewhat more comparable. If your argument recquires me to take a position on preferring Bookie to a current starter…then I like Azubuike more, here’s why:

1. Azubuike rebounds his position a lot better than Harrington has, or probably ever will. This is why I’ve been a bit critical of Harrington in the past. Rebounding usually correlates directly to wins. It’s a fact.
2. He takes a lower volume of shots.
3. He is a much smarter player than Harrington. Don Nelson even says, that Al is one of the smartest guys in the locker room, he’s well spoken, well read. But on the court…
4. He does not demand the ball as much, moving more on offense,(screens, crash glass,etc.)
5. He is the more consistent all-round performer.
6. He does not penalize you nearly as much as Harrington on defense.
And I LIKE Al Harrington

You’re position regarding the remaining back up players…

As far as I’m concerned, Azubuike has proven that he can compete effectively on a nightly basis in the NBA.. Belinelli, Wright, Perovic, Hendrix, Randolph, and Morrow have not proved anything yet. Who is to say that they will this season? You?
Do not mistake this as me saying, “I hope they fail, because I’m gay for Kelenna”..or even, “Kelenna IS, and ALWAYS will be better than any of them”, because I don’t believe that to be true either. I want all of them to improve, and hopefully they’ve made strides to do so.

But what we know for certain, is Azubuike is more experienced and prepared than any of these guys, right now. So I’m not sure I understand you arguing the NEED to fit them in the rotation. They will play when they’re ready, and may the best man win the job. If Marco starts performing, and becomes one of the best shooters on the team, then I’ll be happy to see him push Azubuike out of the rotation. If he’s the better player, right? But he’s not yet.

On your depth chart…

I tend to sway towards Jae’s take on the 5 position depth chart, but I’ll satisfy your question anyways.

Monta Ellis/PG – 40-42 mpg. Why? He’s the best player on the team. Our offensive style is dictated by his speed and relentless attack. He’s young and strong enough now to log 40+ a night without a problem. We’re a better team with him on the court. 38 mpg seems a bit low. Look for him to split his minutes at the 2. Yes, I believe he will log up to 20 mpg there.

Stephen Jackson/SG – 34-36 mpg. Why? He’s the best defender on the team in a conference that is loaded with talented scorers at the 2 and 3 spots. I thought we overplayed him last season, and it showed towards the end of the year. I would expect his assist/TO ratio to slightly improve this season with the addition of Maggette, and Biedrins expected to play a larger role. (Do the Warriors make the playoffs last year, – the Jackson suspension? Are we really that worse off without Baron?)

Corey Maggette/SF/SG/PF-38-40 mpg. Why? Monta needs him. Maggette is our most reliable weapon. He takes a lot of pressure off of Monta, and is essential to the young point guard’s success this season. He also rebounds his position exceptionally well and will temper Al Harrington’s lack there of when they are starting at 3 and 4. Look for Maggette to play a lot of 4 this season in a small line up.

Al Harrington/PF/C-25-26 mpg. Why? I like Al starting games, and shooting to give us the early lead, as the Warriors bust out the gates running. As the game wears on, he sometimes loses focus, becomes disheartened easily, and does not keep up with the grueling battles under the boards. He is a player who runs on emotion more than thought, therefore I like him best for jumpstarts, and playing close games in the 4th quarter, when he is anxious to score for us, and approaches the rebounding issue with more gusto.

Andris Biedrins/C-35-37 mpg. Why? He is one of the best rebounders in the league. Everything about his game speaks efficiency. You do not miss out by playing these kind of guys more. I would give him as much as he can handle.

Ronny Turiaf/PF/C – 24-26 mpg. Why? Ronny is the cliche just what the doctor ordered. We lacked his toughness, his energy down low, and his willingness to abuse, dish out and take hard fouls. I would not mind playing him with Biedrins. His 15 footer is respectable enough to allow him to play away from Biedrins, he would pass well to Andris, and he would set excellent screens for he or Maggette to gain position down low. He is a great fit for this team, he will do well with his minutes.

Kelenna Azubuike/SG/SF – 24-26 mpg. Why? Already said.

Marcus Williams/PG – 20 mpg. Why? We need him to run our bench unit. Who knows, he could even be starting by the end of this season. It will be interesting to see how the offense flows with he and Monta playing together. Look to see Monta slide over to the 2 beginning the 2nd quarter, while Marcus runs the point.

The rest? It is yet to be seen. They have proven nothing at this point, and now they have their chance. Good luck to all my Warriors, and if the best man get’s the job, then that’s the best man for the job.

One last question on the 3 man point guard rotation. Why insert Watson for 5 minutes? Is it for his personal gratification? Just enough to keep him from grumbling? Or is that really your best lineup?

  

by JakeGittes on Aug 20, 2008 3:25 PM PDT to parent up   1 recs

I doubt that Kelenna gets that many minutes

Wright is going to be a key reserve this upcoming season, and you’ve ousted completely him in favor of Buike? I think that Wright ends up taking approx 6 mins each from Azubuike and Turiaf… effectively dropping his minutes to about 18-20, which is where he was last season. Kick some of the injury prone Maggette minutes to Jackson and that seems about right.

by Mr. Monday Night on Aug 20, 2008 6:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wanted to comment on more of your ideas, but I don't want to dilute my point here

I think the crux of your problem is that you evaluate the minutes you think each player deserves completely independently from each other.

Using the low end minutes from your breakdown:

Monta -40
Jax – 34
Maggs – 38
TMNT – 25
Beans – 35
Turiaf – 24
Buke – 24

  1. - 20

Total – 240

There are only a total of 240 player-minutes each game. We’re running 8 deep every single game? Sorry, not buying it. Maybe in the playoffs it’d look something like this, but not in the regular season. Besides, this leaves zero PT for any of the other 7 guys on the roster, including our “promising young talent”. If they’re ever going to develop into real NBA basketball players, they’re going to have to get into a game somehow. You really don’t think Wright will get any PT? He showed something last year… I may not be as high on him as Mr Monday Night, but he’ll certainly get more than zero minutes.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 21, 2008 7:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Dont know why that happened...

The “1. – 20” is supposed to read “#5”, Marcus Williams’ number… weird.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 21, 2008 7:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And to clarify something...

I don’t hate Kelenna. He’s just not as good as Monta, Jax, Maggs, TMNT, or Beans. They’re going to take ~170-180 of the available minutes. The backup “big” and backup “primary ball handler” will take 20-30 minutes a game, maybe more. (Am I allowed to use those monikers JAE?). That just doesn’t leave enough time for Kelenna to play huge minutes. That means he should be more rested and energetic in the minutes he’s out there. I hope he’s successful. I sincerely do.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 21, 2008 7:49 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I suspect the regular PT minute breakdown will look something more like this:

Monta: 38
Jax: 37
Maggs: 34
Biedrins: 30 (and that may be wishful thinking high)
Harrington: 28 (would love to see less—Azubuike is a better player than Al)
Azubuike: 22
Turiaf: 18
Williams: 18 (guesswork based largely on my doubts that Monta runs the point for 38 minutes and need for someone else to do so for the time that Monta is at the 2 or resting)

This leaves about ~45 minutes to play with. Wright? Probably some. Belinelli? Only if he shows point skills. Randolph? No clue. College performance says no, but Nellie likes versatile athletes, so you never know. Hendrix? I doubt it.

The other players on the roster will likely have mpg averages that add up to more than 45, but it’s because they’re going to get more time when people are hurt, but not play every night. Watson (assuming he’s signed) may have 7mpg average, but that’s likely going to be because he plays 20mpg from time to time when someone else is hurt, but then is lucky to get 15 seconds in most contests. I’d like to see more of Wright because his performance in limited time last year looked good, but the team was woeful when he was on the court with Biedrins, so either they figure out a way to play together or Wright’s rise will rely in not a tiny part on Turiaf playing well.

by jae on Aug 21, 2008 8:49 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I've been basing my estimations on a per 82 games

Belinelli played 240 minutes last season. That’s ~3 minutes a game if you spread them out over 82 games. If Belinelli got that many minutes last year, it’s a safe bet that he’ll get at least that many this year (unless they decide to cut ties, but it’s really too soon for that). Wright, Randolph, etc. should get more minutes than that. I don’t feel like going into detail about how many garbage time minutes the 12,13,14, and 15th players on our roster are going to get, but they’re not going to be zero and you can’t just ignore them if you want to figure out how Kelenna Azubuike is going to log 25+ minutes as Jake’s been doing.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 21, 2008 10:26 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Maggette tosses his body at the basket with reckless abandon. He’s never stayed healthy for a full season and never logged that many minutes. Perhaps Nellie will keep him in that long, but I suspect not. If he can play the 36mpg that he got last year, all’s good, but I would not be surprised if he was more of a 32/33 mpg player.

I think it would be good to see Andris more than we did last year, but 35+mpg from him will also be difficult on a regular basis. He has cut down on the fouls, but he’s still prone to picking them up in a hurry. If Turiaf is a competent backup, I suspect Andris will play a bit more aggressively as the foul fear will be somewhat diminished. I’d be really, really shocked if he averages 31mpg.

by jae on Aug 21, 2008 8:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

WHAT?

How can you say he’s overrated? It’s not like anyone said he’d be worthy of starting at the 2. He’s a ROLE player, his job isn’t to take over a game. He’s probably the most consistent player for the Warriors. In the beginning of last season he stepped into the starting lineup when Jrich and Jack were out. haha You make really funny observations Agent Zero.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Aug 18, 2008 12:33 AM PDT   0 recs

Posters' Points

I generally agree that Azubuike will play more minutes this season, and I also agree that he will play a fair amount at the 3 spot. Mostly, because Don Nelson is still the coach, and he likes to go small. I disagree with the poster that it will be in tandom with Turiaff at the 4 spot. Again, since Nelson is still the coach, I doubt Turiaff smells anything other than the 5 spot this season, backing up Biedrens.

I think Buike’s increased minutes will often come at the expense of Harrington, a non-favorite of Nelson. The guy I believe you’ll see play a lot at the 4 spot is Maggette. He stretchs the defense like Harrington, but is tougher inside and with the athleticism to play havoc against opposing 4s, something Harrington is missing. Nelson lives for match-ups. it doesn’t matter that Maggette isn’t a rebounder, since neither is Harrington.

If Maggette and Ellis don’t play well together that will be tough, since they both will play probably 40 minutes a game.

I think there will be competition between Williams and Watson to see who plays the PG spot when the Warriors go small. Nelson may juggle whomever has the hot hand. If neither one works out – I don’t know – a trade, a mid -season signing?

The one shoe that still may drop this off-season would be a Harrington trade, although that may happen during the season.

I also agree that Bellenelli won’t play much at all this season. The bigger question with him is whether or not the Warriors pick up his 3rd year option, as it was with POB last season.

I see the Warriors regular rotation, in order of minutes dealt, as Ellis, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Azubuike, Harrington, Turiaf, Williams and Watson. Good question about the rest. The remaining roster player who has the best bet of cracking the rotation has to be Wright. I think he has the potential to be a good NBA player, but he and Nellie don’t appear to be fit thus far. Among other things, he had surprisingly good rebounding stats last season, and the Warriors could certainly use that. B. Wright also has the athleticism to match up well against other 4s. I just don’t have a clue as to how his season will end up.

by San Francisco Slim on Aug 18, 2008 12:47 PM PDT   0 recs

Where does Buike fit in???

Looking at the Warrior’s roster, I’m worried that there isn’t going to be enough minutes to go around for Azubuike. Even if Marcus Williams doesn’t get significant playing time, which I fully expect he will when the Warriors need a true point guard, Buike is still buried behind Jackson, Maggette, and arguably Harrington.

And if Marcus Williams forces Nelson’s hand, sliding Monta to off guard, then Buike may never play. I just wish we’d never have signed Maggette. He’s a redundant piece, and just might be stifling the growth of Buike, whom I’d personally rather see out there than Mags.

by OperationWayne on Aug 18, 2008 12:55 PM PDT   0 recs

Why?
I just wish we’d never have signed Maggette. He’s a redundant piece, and just might be stifling the growth of Buike, whom I’d personally rather see out there than Mags.

If Maggs is a redundant piece, than Kel