I get the armument about the govt not interfering with our bodies, but that also assumes that the child doesnt count as a body, because the govt can certainly tell us what not to do to the bodies of others….its a tough one, I dont understand how you can be totally on one side or the other of that issue.
  As I’ve said before I’m not a huge Palin fan, and have no particular religious beliefs. However, it is quite perplexing to me how the god-fearing christians are coming to be seen more and more as an evil cult in our society, particularly here in the bay. I don’t endorse their ideas particularly, but I’m not on board with the “damn them trying to spread their morality!” campaign either.
I still dont understand why you think McCain is causeing instability in the Georgia/Russia conflict, specifically what have he or his foreign affairs advisor done to promote unrest there? Your speculation is weak at best, and bold statements like that require SOME evidence otherwise its the same as me saying Barak Obama hates America and thinks 9/11 was the “chickens come home to roost” because the man who was one of his primary advisors and helped shape his morals preaches such pathetic, hateful, garbage.

I dont know if I believe that. If thats the case, lets call for a reform on the judicial process instead of calling for the end of the death penalty. And hey, I’m a huge less taxes, smaller government guy, but I’d much rather pay 20 bucks to put a child rapist and murderer to death than 10 bucks to provide him with food and shelter for the rest of his life. Efficiency be damned.

for injecting some civility into the conversation and reminding me that there are some lefties out there who arent just pricks and have intelligent reasons for their beliefs. I totally agree there is no such thing as a no spin zone and our views have more to do with past experiences and perspective. I enjoy the views presented by the likes of you and sleepy (and jae had some interesting points in this conversation as well) It helps me to remember that not all Obama supporters are assholes and even if he is elected we probably arent doomed to become a socialist nation full of sissies. Its a shame this conversation devolved the way it did, and I accept nearly half the blame, but its tough to even respond to people like Amoc who give you guys the kind of bad name Rusch and O’Reilly give us. Our political system has always relied on compromise and sacrifice for success and its difficult to try to even understand the opposing point of view when you cant get through all the shouting of people who are trying to “win.” Amoc and I both know we arent going to win the other one over to our side, but he instead tries to give me a “beatdown.” That type of debate won’t help no matter who wins. I’ve been a McCain supporter since ‘99 because of his history of truly being able and willing to compromise and negotiate for a plan that may not accurately represent either his views or the oppositions, but both sides arent completely unhappy with. The man clearly has his flaws, and he will be the first to admit it, but he TRIES to live his life with honor and integrity. He is a strong military strategist and broke with the Bush administration on their Iraq strategy from the get-go. There was probably no harsher critic of Rumsfeld than McCain. Being something of a military buff, particularly on modern warfare strategy, I truly believe that if we had commited more troops from the start and drastically reduced the number of private contractors we’d be looking at a much more successful campaign. This is the strategy McCain has called for all along. That said I am also deeply concerned that our country has softened and am entirely unsure that we have the edge neccessary to ever truly win another war if we had to. I think a strong leader like McCain who truly respects the military and wont privatize it the way Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld did is a start to restoring it and our countries pride in it. I think McCain is unafraid to surround himself with strong advisors, unafraid to listen to many different voices, and unafraid to go against popular opinion. Believe it or not the President’s job is not to always act as the majority want them to, and I feel this protection from ourselves is one of the most important powers of the federal government. I believe McCain when he says he’d rather lose an election than a war, and I don’t believe Obama would. I like that McCain doesnt think every country or group can be negotiated with and most negotiations must be done from a position of strength. I like that he believes in a small federal goverment that stays out of the day to day live of American citizens as much as possible and entrusts more power at the more local levels. because it is that way of thinking that has gotten us this far. I believe the primary duty of the federal government is protection not to level the economic playing field. I believe in a free market (with strong restrictions that limit corruption and promote growth within the US) and that rewarding success and promote small businesses are the key to economic success, not the redistribution of wealth by the government through the government. I believe Obama to be ambitious to a fault, a simple tool of his partiy’s leaders who has shown no willingness to break with the party on any issue (how can he unite?) and totally unprepared to be commander in chief. I dont believe John McCain to be the perfect candidate, and I have been saddened by his comformity to the right wing recently, but I also believe he has shown the propensity to break with the party when neccessary (the 10% of the time that he broke with Bush were almost all on large, important issue, and you cant expect a Senator to break with the Party much more often than and still expect to accomplish much, or even retain their seat, see Liebern, Joe) These are the main reasons why I’ll be voting Republican again this fall. Not because I’m a gun-toting, war mongering prick. Not because I think dinosaurs walked the earth 4000 years ago Not because Obama is Muslim or has some questionable friends. Not because of lipstick, or women, or blacks or whites. Not because I believe everything I see and hear on TV and not because I believe nothing I see and hear on TV. Not because I dont find John Stewart amusing (I really do, though he’s a bit too cocky for someone who doesnt know ALL that much) Mike, I know you and Sleepy can present this sort of explanation for why youre voting the way you are, I just wish Amoc and others on both sides could, without trying to “win” every argument. We can all be smart asses and sarcastic, but at the end of the day that just reafirms our own positions, makes us trust the opposition less.

Dude, you picked the wrong guy to try to start this argument with. Youre completely wrong on all accounts, and believe me I know much more about McCain’s background before AND after Vietnam than you.

-Sorry I’m not gonna hold the fact that his father and grandfather were great Americans and war heroes against him. And everyone knows what a wealthy and privilaged lifestyle military families have. While the US military is notorious for playing favorites I assure you, having served with the sons of several high ranking officers and politicians, it is not based upon a nepotism, and McCain was far from a military golden boy. If anything he was promoted LESS than he deserved. Inflated military records are rampant in DC, but those who question McCain’s are either stupid or ignorant, it appears you are both.

-You do understand that just about any officer from the Naval Academy, top 5, bottom 5 or anywhere in between will probably be among the top 10% of all officers in the Navy.

-The most undisciplined Navy cadet is still 10 times as disciplined as your average Harvard boy. Yea, he’s got a bit a reputation as a wild card, or maverick. so the same reputation you Dems are now questioning, youre trying to use against him? make up your mind.

-HE DID NOT CRASH 5 PLANES. Youve been reading too many ridiculous liberal blogs dude. McCain was commended by the Navy several times for his skill as a pilot. Two planes he flew died due to engine failure and there was no evidence of pilot error. A third was lost on the USS Forrestal when hit by a missile from another plane accidentally. McCain saved the lives of some of his commrades in the ensuing fire. And finally, yea he did crash a plane when it was shot down over Hanoi. What a reckless bastard!

-Take a closer look at Obama’s history, he was raised primarily by his grandparents, not by his mom. His grandparents werent wealthy, but certainly not as “middle class” as the campaign would like you to believe. “Barry” Obama attended one of the most elite private high schools in Hawaii. From there he scraped and clawed his way through Harvard, and then he so honorably rejected his chance to work on wall street to enter into the Chicago political machine.

Obama is FROM hyde park? news to me. I commend him for his community service, and to be honest, I think it may be the strongest mark on his resume, but doing community service doesnt make you one of the people. Dems always talk about how leadership always send the poor off to fight their wars for them, so did McCain not spend the bulk of his young adult life, living and working with the lower class? The entire argument of who knows more about poor people is pretty ridiculous imo.

   You are likely showing ignorance here grasshopper by not recognizing that jae always does his homework. You might not like the message but I would seriously avoid disbelieving his statements.

do you want me to create some point system or what? McCain’s entire adult life has been in service to this country, which I (call me crazy) translate into protection of the constitution. Obama’s adult life has been dominated by ambition. Do you want me to make a scoreboard and a some sort of fantasy constitutional protection game or what? I’m not squirming or weasling out of any your questions or arguments, I just dont know what you want me to do.

theres a fundamental difference between us that isnt going to be resolved. As long as you serve your country honorably in some capacity, whether it be in the military or some other public service I consider that to be protection of the constitution and America’s values. Anything can be “subjective” if one side simply rejects the evidence of the other side.

and they certainly lead me to believe he’d strongly oppose Obama’s policies….havent read Miracle at Philadelphia but I’ll check it out. did you mean to say before I assert they’d prefer McCain?

I’m sick of the critiques on my style of debate, present an argument yourself, because you certainly arent proving to me that you think. Sad and pathetic are those who sit back and simply tear apart the opinions of those bold enough to present them. Show me some, any, evidence that the founding fathers and creators of the Constitution would support the big government favoring Obama and I’ll cede this point to you.

serving in the military isnt protecting the constitution, what is?