Mid-Season Review of Off-Season Moves
by FLAxwless on Jan 19, 2009 11:06 AM PST
Email
PrintSo the half way mark of the season has come and the Warriors are sitting at 12-29 and looking nothing like the borderline playoff contender that I had imagined after the Warriors Off-Season moves. I'll be going through the moves from my post during the off-season that can be read here.
So here she blows:
1) Not re-signing Baron Davis
I don't know about you, but during our playoff push last year I began to wish Nelson didn't give BD so much leeway. With each 3 pointer he chucked, instead of taking it to the rack and his matador defense trying to go for pokes... I began to hate him. The one sequence that sticks in my head is against the Nuggets in a do or die game for the final playoff spot... sometime in the late 3rd/early 4th the Warriors down by 4 points or so had 3 defensive stops in a row... sadly the defense went for nothing as BD launched 3 pointers instead of working for a better shot. After that time I knew that we got the best out of BD the year before... the unstoppable bowling ball during the last month of the season and in the playoffs.
Next season our win total maybe lower, but that extra year of experience without BD will do wonders for Ellis, Biedrins, and the rest of the young guys as they learn to win in the NBA and gain experience a steh go-to guys... this could lead to more wins in the future.
GRADE: B .. Next season we will suffer, but it will pay off in the future.
Mid-Season Grade: B
Hard to make this an "A" given how poorly the Warriors are doing but I believe that is more a function of injuries and losing Monta than losing BD. However, one just has to look at what BD is doing in Clipperland to see that once BD gets his money he reverts back to the injury prone and still horribly shooting BD. He's missed the past two weeks with a bruised assbone for christ's sakes!!! Again, the last two seasons in a Warrior uniform were the best we were going to ever get from BD and that amounted to a 2nd round playoff berth and followed by a 48 win team that missed the playoffs. Like Kenny Rogers sings, "You gotta know when to hold, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run." This is one of the few decisons that Rowell has gotten right.
2) Offering Brand and GA Max contracts
These were genius moves by Mullin. Had he landed either player the Warriors would've been a lock for playoffs IMO.. with that said and as much as it hurts to say this as Gilbert Arenas is my favorite player... Brand would've been a much better fit for the Warriors. I'd much rather pay 100 million for a stud big man who can do it all than perimeter oriented scorer (as clutch as GA is).
GRADE: Brand (A) - Well worth the shot and would actually IMPROVE the team. Arenas (C) - The Warriors would be no better than a 48 win team and potentially worse with GA at point over BD. Plus he plays the same position as Ellis and you have yourself a team that has tied up it's capspace for status quo. You don't committ 100 million to 1 player for status quo.
Average: B .. Well worth the shot.
Mid-Season Grade: Brand (A) - Despite his injury and his effect on the 76ers I still think he would have made this team a playoff team. He's Randolph's defense and Brandan Wright's offense mixed into one with veteran status... Don Nelson would cream in his pants if he got Brand. Arenas (F) - The only reason my original grade was so high was because of my man-love for GA and you can ignore the fact that I actually thought he'd be healed. It's a blessing Polin paid GA or else we'd be stuck with an 100 million dollar blogger.
Average: C - Well worth the shot at Brand after BD spurned the Dubs. Just be happy GA got paid in DC folks.
3) Signing Corey Maggette 5yrs/50 million
Corey is a good player and a I'm glad he'll be abusing opposing teams instead of abusing us. Two things I love about Maggs is: (1) He makes FTs (2) He will not be denied to the rim. This is what the Warriors were lacking last year... someone who wouldn't settle for jumpshots and is confident in their FT shooting. Two things I hate about Maggs: (1) He is not a playmaker (2) He will not be denied to the rim. What this means is Maggette is BALL HOG CITY!! I just hope that was all due to the Clippers being depleted and him being in a contract year, but Maggs is a black hole. He can kill an entire offense for stretches since he rarely gives up the rock. If this Warrior team is to succeed they will need to share the rock.
While he has more positives than negatives.. paying Maggs 10 million a year is A LOT when the most he was looking at was mid-level exceptions.
GRADE: C ... Sign Maggs for 5 years/40-42 million and this becomes a B instead.
Mid-Season Grade: D
Pretty much can copy and paste what I said in the off-season report card. Maggs has been what I thought he would be coming in a steady scorer who is BALL HOG CITY and does little else. Why does his grade get lowered? Mostly due to the continued stellar play of Bukie, the emergence of Bellinelli and Morrow, and the trade for Crawford. If the Warriors knew back than what they know now, you can bet they would have made a play for someone else or at least low balled Maggs.
3) Signing Ronny Turiaf 4/17 million
This was a solid signing by Mullin providing the Warriors our own Milsap/Power. again like Maggette this was a guy who would tear us up. Glad he's with us now. He can run, block shots, play some defense, and has a solid mid-range shot. 4 million a year for a servicable big man is market value. Only negative is what does this mean for Richard Hendrix?
GRADE: B... solid player and gives us a reliable back up behind Biedrins.
Mid-Season Grade: B
Everything you thought you'd be getting and than some. Only wish is he'd stop trying to block every shot, so he can actually position himself and grab rebounds. People wonder how someone who blocks so many shots can be a poor rebounder? It's because Turiaf tries to blocks anything and everything in Oracle.
4) Trading for Marcus Williams
I love this move a lot more than most. I liked Williams coming out of college and wanted the Warriors to draft him instead of POB. He got stuck behind Kidd and had a injury short his 2nd season in the league. However he is a pure point guard that can create for others, shoot 3s, steal the ball, and play little defense (sound familiar). Not bad for a future 1st rounder.
He'll be a back up PG to start, but I could see Nellie using Ellis and Williams together. Wouldn't be suprised if Williams eventually plays himself into the 6th man role.. leap frogging Buike as the 6th man and 1st guard off the bench.
GRADE: A... great potential at a need position for very little investment (lottery protected 1st rounders or two 2nd rounders).
Mid-Season Grade: INC
Honestly, I loved the trade and still think Williams has potential. He couldn't even get in during Triple OT after Maggs was fouled out and he was the only available guard. I was at the game and I would have bet money that Nelson would put Williams in b/c he was the only guard left but he put in Kurz!! That just goes to show how deep in the doghouse is Marcus Williams when Don Nelson elects to play a big over a small in crunch time.
5) Matching Azubukie 3yrs/9 million
Another good move for Mully. Buike will develop into a solid starter/6th man who plays within himself, can take it to the rack, shoot 3s, and play defense. Matching Buike also prevents him from making a division foe better (instant upgrade form their bench and potential starter there) and allows us more flexibility in the future as a potential trading chip or insurance at the SG/SF when Jackson's contract runs out and if Bellinelli never pans out. Maybe we're biased, but we all know Bukie will become a good NBA and getting a YOUNG rotation player for 3 million a year is a great move.
GRADE: A ... could be better than Maggette
Mid-Season Grade: A.
Like I said dude will be better than Maggette and costs about 7 million less! A great Mullin find and a super-duper contract.
6) Re-signing Monta Ellis 6yrs/66 million
What more is there to say? Monta is our future, he is our franchise and will be a real offensive threat unlike J-Rich because he has better handles and can jump off 1 foot. Monta Ellis can consistently get himself to the rim and has great finishing ability, couple that with his mid-range game and you have yourself an elite offensive player. His defense just needs to improve and I believe Monta has the work ethic to become a better defender. At the end of last season he also showed better playmaking ability and actually feed Biedrins the ball more in Pick and Roll situations over BD. I would much rather have Ellis for the next 6yrs for 66 million over Gilbert Arenas. People may say we overpaid... but Parker signed for the same deal and Ellis right now is just as good as TP, IMO.
GRADE: A ... Ability to get to the rim, finish, and mid-range game make him a lock to continue becoming an ELITE offensive scorer.
Mid-Season Grade: "F" YOU!!!
He's the sole reason for the Warriors suckieness (I'll detail it in another post) and all because he was riding on a freakin moped. I don't think people truly realize the impact Monta makes and I expect the Warriors to play consistently above average basketball once Monta comes back.
7) Signing Anthony Morrow
Worth a gamble after what he did in summer league.
GRADE: C... just because his chances to make the final roster are slim.
Mid-Season Grade: A
Another Mully gem. He has a good stroke and fights hard for rebounds on both ends of the floor. Needs to work on his offensive game a bit and defense but for a minimum deal you can't find better value.
8) Re-signing Biedrins 6yrs/63 million
Another young player locked up for market value. After years of suffering with Dampier and Foyle dropping passes... watching Andris play has been a joy to watch. He has soft hands, great feet, and a knack for scoring underneath. On the defensive side he is a very good rebounder and changes shots... if only the refs gave him some respect instead of tagging him with BS fouls. He's still very young at 22 and we haven't even see him come close to realizing his potential until Nelson leaves or commits to playing him for 30 minutes and running a few plays for him. Before we got Harrington and Jackson.. Biedrins was developing a solid low post game. He's one of best young bigs and he already has 4 years of NBA experience and is a proven double double guy in limited minutes.
GRADE: A .... he's getting paid less than Bogut. 'Nuff said.
Mid-Season Grade: A... 14 pts/12rebs/1.6blk/56% FG in all 41 games. Andrew Bogut... 12 pts/10rebs/1blk/58% FG has missed 9 games and counting. So the Dubs win on the value scale. His FG% has dropped but he has been getting more looks so that is expected. He's been the most consistent Dub and glad to have him around for the next 6 years.
Mid-Season Grade of Off-Season moves: B... The signings of everyone but Maggette have proved to be great values and solid management decisions. They dropped from a B+ to a B because of the wasted money of Maggette and the value of his contract, for being crazy enough to offer GA max money, Nelson and Williams hating each other, and a stupid moped incident.
So what can we gain from looking back? For the most part the Warriors did the right things during the off-season as far as moves go. The problems with the losing have stemmed from a Warriors injury and moves/decisions that have occured since than sending our once proud and up-coming franchise to lottery bound. With the off-season moves the Warriors have set themselves up with a nice young core of rotation players but huge deals to Maggs, SJax, and possibly Crawford are going to lead to status quo for the foreseeable future. If this teams is going to go anywehere it will have to be through the improvements of the young core and that's what makes this season so frustrating as Don Nelson isn't the right coach IMO to raise young, confident NBA players.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
59 comments
|
6 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
How about the Captain Jack Extension?
I’d give that a D. We love Jax in the Bay and he is a very important piece of our team and a veteran in the locker room, but we overpaid for him and locked up even more cap space unnecessarily when he is well past his prime.
WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...
what! no pictures? ;)
nice post – rec’d – the grades below are impacted by contract considerations
Nixing the Baron extension – D
The only way vetoing Mullins 3yr/$39m offer to Baron makes sense was if GSW was going to either pick up Brand or move into complete rebuild mode. Considering Nelson was extended subsequently, I’d like to have seen them continue together for two more seasons. This would be an F had Baron been healthy and carrying LAC to the 8th spot.
Brand offer – A
Fruitless, and desperate, but Nelson wouldn’t have been the only one creaming …
Arenas – F
Fortunately also fruitless, and even more desperate as we’d’ve never been able to acquire a big FA thereafter and he’s not a franchise player worth $100m.
Maggette – C
At the time the deal got made, presumably with a healthy Monta and Harrington at PF, this move made sense if we were going to stay within ear-shot of playoffs. Hasn’t worked out well yet.
Turiaf – A
This really is easy – despite losing, his attitude and energy have been infectious and he’s a perfect backup to Andris at the right price.
Marcus – C
Only a C because it was a low cost gamble – those draft picks are lottery protected and we may end up only giving up 2nd rd pix and our 2nd rd pix rarely make a difference (Lasme? Hendrix?). If he’d’ve cost us a #1, it’d be an F. Gotta take a low-risk gamble sometimes.
KAz – A
Another easy one. Quietly he’s been the most consistent player on the perimeter – again, the right price for the right player.
Ellis – INC
Assuming he comes back 100%, re-signing was a no-brainer. And, he’s not “the sole reason for the Warriors suckieness” – we’ve had lot’s of adversity (Harrington, hamstrings, Rowell’s decision-making, etc.)
Morrow – A
Honestly, he’s already paid off and if he keeps improving we have some trading chips.
Andris – A
Anyone who doesn’t see how valuable he is just isn’t watching enough ball, plus we didn’t overpay.
Jackson extension – F
Separating loving the player from the business decision, this is the most baffling move of all – extending a player who’s not up for FA, who’s not a #1 or #2 option on a WCF-caliber club, just doesn’t make sense. That doesn’t mean that I don’t like Jax, just the extension.
Harrington-Crawford trade – F
Crawford certainly gives us scoring, but little else and that’s a duplicate skill attached to a long, expensive contract. Harrington may not have been the ideal PF, but his skill set was more complimentary to our roster needs and his contract shorter. This move, following the Jackson extension and on top of the Maggette contract, handicaps us from making another move to improve our front-court unless GSW can convince another NBA GM to trade us a big for some of our smalls. Don’t hold your breath.
and -
Nelson’s extension – C
Keeping Baron and managing the Harrington debacle would have made his extension more understandable. Now I find myself looking ahead to the post-Nelson era.
My problem with most of the moves is that they were reactionary. Nixing the Baron deal is fine. But you need to try to trade that player after he’s had a couple of very good seasons if you’re not planning to re-sign him. I actually thought we should have traded him the offseason before that. Pulling a page from the A’s book, you trade guys when they have most value, before their value declines. So not extending him and not attempting to trade him was pretty unispiring. You extend him, trade him, or find yourself in trouble.
Jax I feel the same way about. He should have been traded in the offseason when his value was at it’s highest. I think his value has been reduced dramatically with the contract extension. If you don’t give it to him it becomes a huge issue, so he forced Rowell’s hand. We should have been proactive with him just like we should have with Baron.
Al made it known in the offseason he wanted to be traded, didn’t like his role and didn’t like Nelson. We would have had much more leverage then. Once it became an issue and once the season started, there weren’t nearly as many options. Again, they waited and let the circumstance dictate the move to them, rather than making moves on their own terms.
Maggette was simply a knee jerk reaction to losing Baron. With Ellis, Jax, Buike, and Bellinelli, it seemed wasteful even at the time to give him such a large contract. Arenas is the same story.
Resigning Biedrins and Ellis was a given.
The rest of the moves were OK, but didn’t address any big needs.
Turiaf has played well in his role, but was not the role we needed to fill most. Yes, we needed a big. But how about a guy who could play staters minutes at the 4? How about a full sized center who can defend and rebound when Biedrins is gone? Turiaf is a good player but should be the 5th big off the bench, IMO.
Buike was signed for a good contract, but he’s a flawed player who replicates much of what we have. His signing makes sense from a value perspective and for depth on the bench. But it loses some luster if Maggette stays and is the 6th man. This signing becomes very good if we can get rid of Maggette for a key piece.
Morrow was fine. He could be a good player in a couple of years, like how Buike developed into a good role player off the bench. But he’s got major issues currently and shouldn’t be seeing much time. He should be at the end of the bench and the grade should be incomplete. That he’s played the minutes he has goes a long way towards explaining our record.
No one expected BD to void...
I think you’re not giving the Warriors enough credit here with the handling of the BD situation. The Dubs wanted to extend BD (Mullin had a deal in place, Rowell didn’t approve it but he did want BD back if it was a shorter deal with a team option due to BD’s injury history) and figured at the very least they would still have the rest of this season to negotiate or trade BD during the deadline (BD with a expiring contract would have been a SUPER VALUABLE commodity).
The reason you can’t fault the Warriors, IMO is because BD had a player option to terminate his contract this off-season but NO ONE expected him to actually use it!! Even at the end of the season all signs pointed to BD coming back for one last year. I mean dude left MAX contract money (I think 17 million?) on the table and took less money this year from the Clips in exchange for long-term security. So unless you expected BD to opt out (I think you would’ve been the only one) the Warriors set themselves up perfectly to do what you are requesting: more time to renegotiate, evaluate the team, and if nothing can get done trade BD during the deadline when he has peak value as a Top 10 PG with an expiring deal.
You’re also not thinking very realistic if you think the Warriors should have traded BD after we made the playoffs. No way that would happen (we wouldn’t get equal value for BD) or should have happened (that team deserved a full year to play together).
As for Jackson EVERY TEAM needs a veteran leader and I’m glad they choose Sjax over BD. His contract was essential in keeping the leadership needed to guide these young players. S-Jax has done it all as a undrafted player, played over seas, worked his way into the NBA, and won a championship. He’s the perfect leader for a young team as he can relate to all of them. Again, his game has never relied on athleticism so he’ll remain an effective weapon through out his contract.
As for Harrington I don’t think we could have gotten any better than Jamal Crawford. I’m suprised we even got for him so I don’t know how trading him in the off-season would have changed that.
I agree Maggette was a knee jerk reaction but at that time Buike wasn’t signed yet and Bellinelli and Morrow have yet to show they were capable NBA players. Maggette isn’t a bad player or bad fit (at the time) it’s just he’s over paid.
Turiaf the 5th big off the bench?? Sorry but that just shows how much you know about basketball. Turiaf is a great back up big… you can do a lot worse and teams have a lot worse than Turiaf. I’m sure the Warriors would have loved to added a big who play starters minutes at the 4 or 5… but you know what? That’s pretty hard to find and even harder to find on the FA market. Did you really want the Dub to make a run at Emeka? Be happy we got Turiaf for what we paid. He’s 10x the player Foyle was and that bum got 10 million a year.
The main point is you’re being too harsh on the Warriors due to unrealistic expectations and/or a lack of understanding of the market and the league. BD took everyone by surprise. SJAX IS THE LEADER of the team and needs to be here or else these kids will listen to who? Maggs? Starting big men are hard to find and don’t come cheap. Just look at the money Okafor and Bogs got. So getting Ronny is just right at market value, maybe even lower. All these moves and the team looks bad right now because we’re still missing a very important piece that everyone was expecting we’d have this season….. MONTA ELLIS. Once he comes back, we can truly see how successful these moves were.
Given the circumstances I think the Warriors did very well this off-season.
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=4892220
No one expected BD to void...
all over our head :>) ???
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 22, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
Davis- I think they handled the BD situation poorly. Not extending him left them with limited options. They could let him walk after the year, they could trade him in the 2008 offseason, or they could trade him at the deadline. They’re not going to want to let him walk in the offseason. It would have been much more prudent to attempt to trade him in the offseason, rather than wait for the deadline, for two reasons. First, he did have an opt out, and that has to be looked at. But more important, can you imagine him on a one year contract? He could raise hell and we’d have spent the first half of the season in drama. That doesn’t exactly give you leverage when looking to trade at the deadline. If you don’t think he’s capable of this, look at his previous employer.
The W’s didn’t extend him, they didn’t look at trading him (to our knowledge), and didn’t really seem to have a plan. I think this was the result of Rowell and Mullin playing tug of war, and I don’t think we should let them off the hook that easily. They put us in a no win situation.
Jax- Yes every team needs a veteran leader. But Jax is a known trouble maker, not the perfect leader for any team. He’s a good player who had a great contract coming off his career year. That’s the perfect storm. What do you think Dumars would do in that situation?
Maggette- We had the rights on Buike, so that was in our control. I was also upset that they let Barnes walk, he had a bad year but considering the circumstances and his price, I thought he should have been re-signed. We had no business signing Maggette, it’s about opportunity cost, you sign him and can’t sign another player. I think our bench looked fine re-signing the players we had in our control, for good contracts.
Turiaf- Well, name calling aside, I disagree. He’d hardly a “great back up”. He doesn’t score or rebound. And while he’s a good help defender, he’s not a great man defender. So as a backup you don’t bring him in to score, to rebound, or to shut down the opponents big. What does he do? Blocks shots, scream and yell, waive a great towel, play with passion. Good stuff, but not a “great back up”. A great back up can play starters minutes when needed and perform well, IMO. Buike has shown this ability. Maggette is a great back up, not a starter. Look at Turiaf’s 40 minutes last night. He can’t spell a starter who is injured, he’s a perfect 3rd option. The starter gets hurt, the backup goes in and Turiaf is the new back up. The back up gets hurt, Turiaf is the new back up. We have foul trouble, overtime, a good matchup, Turiaf gets his minutes. That’s his value.
All these great moves and where are we? If you can’t deal with a player getting hurt without your team crumbling, you’re not a good team. We have major construction flaws that were the result of a bad offseason. We have one good big and a host of 2’s. Just like Mullin signing Dunmurphy, we’ll need to make major moves to reshape the team after these mistakes.
Davis- I think they handled the BD situation poorly. Not extending him left them with limited options. They could let him walk after the year, they could trade him in the 2008 offseason, or they could trade him at the deadline. They’re not going to want to let him walk in the offseason. It would have been much more prudent to attempt to trade him in the offseason, rather than wait for the deadline, for two reasons. First, he did have an opt out, and that has to be looked at. But more important, can you imagine him on a one year contract? He could raise hell and we’d have spent the first half of the season in drama. That doesn’t exactly give you leverage when looking to trade at the deadline. If you don’t think he’s capable of this, look at his previous employer. </blockquote
Your scenario was impossible. Davis was untradeable last off season. Not untradeable in the “Maggs is untradeable, no one wants his contract way” but in the real honest "league rules would not have allowed us to trade him sort of way. After last year’s trade deadline, we could not make a deal with him. With the option to opt out, he was considered, for the purposes of a trade, a free agent and you cannot trade free agents. The only way we could have traded him would have been if he waived the player option. So no, in the 2008 off season, we could not have traded him after not extending him.
There was another option if he did not opt out and was not extended. The Warriors wouldn’t have had to let him walk but could have negotiated with him as a Bird-eligible free agent.
That option not ac
Huh. Don’t know why that post was all in quoted text and the last sentence got cut. Here’s what it should have looked like:
Davis- I think they handled the BD situation poorly. Not extending him left them with limited options. They could let him walk after the year, they could trade him in the 2008 offseason, or they could trade him at the deadline. They’re not going to want to let him walk in the offseason. It would have been much more prudent to attempt to trade him in the offseason, rather than wait for the deadline, for two reasons. First, he did have an opt out, and that has to be looked at. But more important, can you imagine him on a one year contract? He could raise hell and we’d have spent the first half of the season in drama. That doesn’t exactly give you leverage when looking to trade at the deadline. If you don’t think he’s capable of this, look at his previous employer.
Your scenario was impossible. Davis was untradeable last off season. Not untradeable in the "Maggs is untradeable, no one wants his contract way" but in the real honest "league rules would not have allowed us to trade him sort of way. After last year’s trade deadline, we could not make a deal with him. With the option to opt out, he was considered, for the purposes of a trade, a free agent and you cannot trade free agents. The only way we could have traded him would have been if he waived the player option. So no, in the 2008 off season, we could not have traded him after not extending him.
There was another option if he did not opt out and was not extended. The Warriors wouldn’t have had to let him walk but could have negotiated with him as a Bird-eligible free agent.
The option of trading him at the deadline (if he did not opt out) doesn’t seem so bad. On a one year deal, he’s playing for a new contract.
by jae on Jan 22, 2009 7:54 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Great posting.
Exactly. The Dubs did the best they could in that situation.
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=4892220
I had addressed these two issues when I first drafted the post but deleted it because I tend to write very long posts as it is. But you’re right, they need to be addressed.
With respect to the sign and trade, it is an option, certainly. But I think when you’ve made it clear you have no intent to extend a player, they’ve played out the season and now are free agents you lose some leverage. Any team that can sign the player outright has no need to deal with you. It’ll be interesting to see how the Bulls fair with Ben Gordon this offseason. His situation is a bit different, of course, but I don’t see them getting market value.
You’re obviously right about the free agent issue, they couldn’t trade him for his expiring contract in the offseason. Any team looking to trade for BD would be looking at having to extend him first, through negotiations with the player and the W’s prior to the trade.
Certainly hindsight is 20/20, but my main point is that I think players who are not a part of a teams long term plans need to be traded when their value is highest. Once they decided BD was not a part of the long term plan, I didn’t think letting Baron play out the year or trade him at the deadline was preferable to a trade in the offseason.
I don’t think it’s altogether clear that he ‘was not a part of the long term plan’, certainly not before last year’s trading deadline. They didn’t come to an agreement on an extension, but if he did not opt out, the Warriors could have negotiated with him at the end of this season. Letting his contract expire does not mean that he has to leave.
But I’m wary of giving management too much credit, especially when their is no indication that’s what they were looking to do. And if that was their plan, then they shouldn’t have made an offer only to rescind it. If that was their plan they should not have signed Maggette or extended Jax, either. The limited info we have points to a conflict of opinion on the direction of the team in the front office which led to conflicting moves.
I think a key part of my stance is that I think the W’s should have tried to trade BD instead of re-signing him at all. An extension would have been a bad choice, IMO, and if we were going to trade him, then I think we should have tried to do so in the offseason. But of course, trading BD instad of keepig him is a stance that I’d probably be in the minority in.
So you’re basically saying that the Warriors should have traded Baron after the 42 win playoff season but when he was coming off yet another injury plagued season? That is the only time he realistically could have been traded for real value. In this LAST off season it was not an option.
It was an option, but BD would have to waive the player option. He could waive the option if he agrees with the new team on a longer term deal.
Still...
You really think the Warriors should have traded BD after they beat the Mavs?
Doubt you would have done that than.
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=4892220
If he’d have to waive the player option first, it wasn’t really an option that the Warriors could have planned for. Your “trade Baron” scenario still relies on them trading him right after the 07 playoff run.
My understanding is he could waive the player option at any time. He didn’t have to wiaive it in the 2007 offseason, he could have waived it last offseason at any time. If the W’s decided not to extend him, they could immediately discuss trades with other teams, with the understanding that the other team would need to first come to an agreement with Baron so that he waives his option. Similar to how teams do sign and trades.
Ok...
Well here’s the thing than. The Warriors were discussing deals ALL the way up until the he opted out.
They intend to keep him or continue negotiating until/discuss trading him through this season.
Baron was the one that opted out so no one knew what he was going to do. Everyone assumed he’d finish out the last season of his deal ($17 million).
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=4892220
He could waive the player option at any time. Now why exactly would he do that? To help out the Warriors? He’d only ‘opt out’ if there was a better extension on the table for a team who could not acquire him by signing him directly. After the trade deadline and before the FA period, contact between Baron is not allowed under the CBA.
The Warriors didn’t decide they didn’t want to extend him in the simplistic manner you were suggesting. They had a price, he had a price. These prices were different. The Warriors didn’t cave to his price (or Rowell didn’t) thinking that their best option was to wait another year and see where things were. He opted out thinking this was his best choice when the two prices were different.
You seem again to suggest that they either should have made a move long before any of this was clear or made a move that somehow requires fantastic amounts of cooperation between sides that were in opposition already. You seem to be suggesting something so implausible and somehow criticizing management for not making the near-impossible happen.
Good posting jae.
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=4892220
criticizing management for not making the near-impossible happen.
How about criticizing them for making the almost impossible happen? Baron loved it here and it took a lot for him to leave, starting with trading his co-leader Jrich for a useless rookie then having Nellie ride him to the point where he had to be benched in the most important game of the season. Boom came with high hopes and then saw management tear up a winning combination after one playoff appearance, not a very good way to keep great players aboard.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 26, 2009 8:38 PM PST up reply actions
trade guys when they have most value
in your orig reply
I’d agree, in a cold-hearted way, that’s ideal
but it’s a lot easier to say in retrospect than when a player’s value to a franchise is peaking
trading Baron after he and Nelson had been able to get to the playoffs, thanks to the indy trade, would have alienated SO many fans as to be an unrealistic option imho
ie should the Cavs trade LJ?
Yes, it’s easier in retrospect. And no, I don’t think the Cavs should trade LJ. But I think a team needs to do some forward thinking.
First, figure out the players you want to build the team with. If you aren’t going to keep Baron around long term, then trade him when his value is at it’s highest.
With respect to Jax, I think it’s easier. No BD, JRich, or Harrington and the team is a very young one with a longer term time horizon. Jax is great as a complimentary player, the second or third option offensively, a veteran on a team with good leadership, a guy who can do multiple things to help a good team win. The W’s are no longer that type of team. But with his very good contract and skill set, he should be a great pickup for a team who is in the win now mode and can plug him into that role.
I think trading Jax rather than extending him would have made more sense and wasn’t that difficult to see. In fact, it’s still not that difficult. I would still try to trade Jax to the right team. We’d potentially get less in return than if we hadn’t extended, but he’s still a great fit for a contending team. I think our time horizon is now 3 years away as a contending team if we make good moves ( a big if). So how do we best position ourselves for that?
it’s still not that difficult
several trenchant points, tho we differ on how difficult it’d be to move Jax now …
Unfortunately, I think you’re probably right ,that trading Jax now with his extention would be difficult. And I wouldn’t personally want to trade him just to get rid of him, or be rid of his contract. I would want to trade him to add pieces to the future.
At one point I thought Philly could be a good destination. They are not players in the free agent class of ‘10, they made up their minds to be competitive now at the expense of flexibility. They’ve been disappointing and I think they are thinnest in the starting lineup at the small spot next to Iggy. Jax wouldn’t be the go-to player but could provide veteran scorer and add some more defense. Philly likes to go up and down, which is a good fit, too.
In any case, if a team is going to take Jax and give us good value, it would have to be in a similar situation. Not a player in ’10, trying to win now, needs a veteran small who can score and help a team win.
Of course, this would require the W’s to have some interest in trading Jax, which they haven’t shown. And with the extention, I’m not sure if they can trade him before the deadline anyway. So, I’m obviously not on the same page as the W’s management :-)
....
maggette gets an F-….. LOSING BARON GETS AN F————….. YA HE WAS BAD AGAINST DENVER BUT HE DIDNT PLAY FOR THE WARRIORS HE WAS THE WARRIORS
I remember games at the end of last year when I cursed Baron for his erradic play,
Which makes me wonder, what would things be like had BD stayed in the Bay? With the way Baron has looked so far for the Clips it seems letting hiim walk wasn’t such a bad idea (it was a miracle that he stayed healthy all of last year, but some of his poor play has to do with Dunleavy Sr.‘s system.) We probably would be in a better position right now, but I wonder if players like Bellinelli, Watson, and Morrow would have got their shot, players who are showing a lot of improvement and are definitely becoming good trade chips if not the makings of a solid bench for the Warriors. Its been tough this year, but keeping in mind just how much this team has been injured and the number of new players on the team, I am starting to get pretty excited at seeing what our full healthy team can do. I think the results might be shocking, and though we won’t make the playoffs this year, we will have most of the team back next year with tons more chemistry, a lot more maturity, and confidence from the youngsters who are getting great experience right now in significant roles due to injuries. Barring unforeseen events i.e. injuries/trades, I predict Warriors back in the playoffs in 2010
by Pearlsofwisdom on Jan 19, 2009 11:17 PM PST reply actions
Captain jack extention...
combined with the Maggette contract is truly depressing, I give them a big fat F-
Nixing Baron deal = A+
Good job Rowell…Baron’s performance in Clipperland cannot be judged for potential with our team. Too much of Baron’s game is subject to change based on the day of the week, Dunleavy’s whack system, how many Trinkies Baron ate at lunch…whatever.
Letting Baron go allowed some of our bench players like Belineli get some valid playing time. While you can argue having Baron would have offset some of the loss of Monta, we likely still wouldnt be a playoff team. We are now in a position to make a valid judgement on the skill of some of the players on our roster and either play them or trade them for decent value.
Last thing to consider is the potential for Baron to sit out over the following 2 years of a relatively expensive deal.
I think we are way ahead at this point. Whether the front office will make more bonehead moves from here forward negating this positive move is another discussion
I hate to see everyone hating on Crawford, he is a stud, playing 48 minutes last night
Give Crawford a chance… once monta comes back he won’t have as much pressure on him, just like so many of you hated on SJAX when he first showed up, then you saw what happened without him first 6 games last year and he got some of the credit he deserved. Crawford is elite, how many 50 point scorers are out there? how many guys can cross up a dribble like that and make a memory for us that will last forever, how many guys can score so many four point plays.
Harrington
seemed to ALWAYS be in Nelson’s dog house,. He is thriving in NY plus we got Jamal’s contract, and he plays the same position as azubuike, morrow, monta, jackson, bellinelli, cj watson, and maggette. That was a stupid move.
by ninjagaijin on Jan 20, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Harrington is not “thriving” in any sense that makes his team better. Harrington is taking more shots which means he’s scoring more points. Since he’s not shooting better, he’s not helping them win. He has not improved, nor have the Knicks. In fact, they’ve sported a much poorer record since he arrived.
we dont need players that can score
we have plenty of that, how about him on defense? He isn’t that great, hes a poor mans iverson and iverson sucks at defense too.
hmm
Signing of Maggette: F-
Extending Jackson’s contract: D-
Trading Al for Jamal and his contract: F
Those are the worst things that happened because now we can’t go after any GOOD free agents in 2010 and if the team stays like this then we won’t be in the playoffs for a long time.
this isn't field of dreams, if you try and buy them they still won't come...
the reason we paid so much for Maggete is we needed to, we are not signing a top tier guy plain and simple, too many teams have too much money, we would need to offer substantially more than most teams, the Bay Area is not great for player endorsements, nor is it great for merchandising, plus our owners and front office don’t have a great rep out there… so we need to offer more and even then it probably would not happen. Crawford will be a great plus when Monta is back and all these people hating will turn around just like some are starting to for Maggete.
what free agent is coming here anyway?
honestly, if you had any real talent would you come here to play for this administration and ownership team?
I still have hope for the Crawford deal to be a positive as Monta comes back and he gets some Nellie/Smart coaching.
what free agent is coming here anyway?
If we agree to change the name of the team to the Lebrons do you think king James would bite?
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 20, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
what real talent?
well baron played here and the only reason why Brand didn’t come because he thought he had a better chance in the East to win a ring and Arenas verbally agreed he’d stay in Washington if they resigned Jamison.
Same reason why guys like MIchael Redd decided to stay with the Bucks. When it comes down to it, money talks and since we don’t have any of that to offer now, we don’t even have a chance to sign anybody.
Baron played here because he had to
He was drafted and re-signed by NO then traded here. We gave him zero contracts. Brand didn’t come here because… he was going after the cash and we didn’t have it. Arenas was doing the same thing. For teams like ours, money is the only thing we have to offer. For teams like NYK and LAL, and maybe to a lesser extend BOS, you’ve got some cachet (read:fame) and non-affiliated marketing opportunities (read: money). Fame and money is all they’re really after. Some other contenders might be able to dangle a ring in somebody’s face, but that’s the fame thing again. The Warriors need to improve their brand in order to have any hope of attracting talent.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 21, 2009 6:32 AM PST up reply actions
I didn't add the In-Season Moves but here's my take:
1) Re-signing Don Nelson
Initial reaction: A
I was excited about this move. Don Nelson is one of the best basketball coaches ever. I felt locking him up long term would give him the support he needs in order to groom the young guys and give them PT as he wouldn’t feel the pressure to coach for a contract. I always thought Nelson was a chameleon and able to adapt to his personnel so I was excited to see what he would do with Biedrins, Turiaf, Wright, Randolph, and Hendrix.
Mid-Season report: C
He’s still a great coach and you’d be hard pressed to find a better one but he’s not the chameleon I thought he was. He’s small ball for life and will stubbornly stick to it even though his team is getting out rebounded every game. His handling of young players is a bit frustrating but hard to argue with the improvements Bellinelli, Watson, Bukie, and the PT Morrow has been given. So I guess the problem is not with his handling of perimeter players but with Bigs in general. I would love to see more Biedrins/Turiaf/Wright/Randolph combos on the floor at the same time. He made a great shift from isolation to a motion offense and the team has come to life, but his failure is still defense even though he has passed those duties into Smart. He has his “+” and “-” but again at least he’s a competent coach offensively and commands the respect of the veterans.
2) Extending Jackson
Initial reaction: B
Does it tie up cap space? Yes, but there’s still plenty of time between now and 2010 and as it stands now we still have $10 million in cap space to add someone next to Ellis, Biedrins, Jackson, Magette, Crawford, Jackson, Turiaf, Buike, Wright, Randolph, and Bellinelli. Not a bad chunk of change to add to that core.
Onto Jackson he’s worth the money, IMO. This is a young team that needs a veteran leader and love him or hate him but Jackson is the heart and soul of our team. He does everything and while he has his negatives he adds more to the team than he takes away. He’s getting paid the same and Maggs and unlike Maggs we get a scorer, defender, play maker, and leader. Also, while Jackson is 30 and his contract will run until 35 he’s never relied of athleticism to be effective so I don’t think his play will suffer. I’d rather commit to Cap’n Jack long term than BD. Only downside, IMO is it does tie up cap space but he’s a quality player.
Mid-Season Report Card: B
Still no reason to change the grade. He’s done everything we’ve asked of him. He carried us in the beginning and since Crawford has arrived he’s played within himself for the most part.
3) Harrington-Crawford Trade
Initial Reaction: A+
I’ve never been a big fan of Al due to his inconsistency and when he wanted out I thought we’d get expiring deals for him. I didn’t mind losing him because we had Wright and Randolph waiting in the wings. When I found out we got Jamal Crawford I creamed in my pants. He’s the perfect combo guard to stick next to Monta. I’m excited to see the 2 of them play together.
Mid-Season grade: B+
Tough to see Al Harrington do so well but again that goes back to Nelson’s dislike for bigs but while Harington’s scoring has gone up he rebounding is at a meager 6 per game… so he’ll always suck at that. As for Crawford still think he’s the perfect running mate next to Monta Ellis but the trade drops from a A+ to a B+ because Crawford settles for jump shots when he can break ANYONE ankles and frankly he sucks at finishing. Instead of taking it to the rack with authority after he breaks his opponents ankles he avoids contact when finishing preferring to do little scoop shots, push shots, and the like. This decreases his FT calls and makes things harder than it needs to be when to comes to finishing at the rim. He should take a page out of S-Jax, Monta, and Maggs when it comes to finishing. Otherwise, he’s done well and you can never have enough play makers on the floor.
So that’s my take on the in-season moves.
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=4892220
Tough to see Al Harrington do so well but again that goes back to Nelson’s dislike for bigs but while Harington’s scoring has gone up he rebounding is at a meager 6 per game
He is doing very well for his next contract. In terms of helping his team win, Harrington is not doing very well. He’s shooting more to score more. That rarely helps a team win.
It hasn’t helped the Knicks win. They don’t win much. They are winning less frequently than they did before the trade.
What's our record
I agree with most of your reasoning on each issue. However, it’s difficult to give good grades for moves that have essentially takent the team from a 48 game winner to a 24? game winner. Yes, Ellis is out, but before Ellis’ breakthrough season we had JRich at the 2 and did well.
I think what’s missing is that each move may be OK individually but taken together the overall construction of the team is poor. Notice how with the exception of adding Turiaf and extending Biendrins, all the moves are for smalls. We desperately need a veteran 4. We need a big back up 5. And I still think we need a backup 1 who’s a pass first playmaker. None of the moves we’ve made address those needs.
We still have time, of course. We can trade one of our 2/3’s to fill some of these needs. And if we do that, then I’d be fine with the moves. But as a status quo, I have to give the moves taken as a whole a D. If we can parlay them into something else, the final grade could be much higher.
I think Monta is a bigger piece than you think.
He was the the team’s most consistent scorer and with flanked by streaky players in BD, SJAX, and Harrington the Warriors were a dangerous team as at least 2 of the 3 could get hot and play along side Monta.
This season we’re seeing more of the same type of play. We have streaky players in Crawford and Sjax with Maggette trying to fill the void of consistent source of points but due to injuries we’ve only had Crawford, Sjax, and Maggette play together for so many games. However, we’ve seen the success on the latest home stand that the 3 are having and adding Monta will only make that better.
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=4892220
Maggette is not streaky
Just injured. See his splits:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=497
Every game played in January has been after he came back from injury. I’m excited to have him and Monta on the floor together. The drive and dish for second drive will be a thing of beauty.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 22, 2009 6:41 AM PST up reply actions
Re-read this sentence... I agree
This season we’re seeing more of the same type of play. We have streaky players in Crawford and Sjax with Maggette trying to fill the void of consistent source of points but due to injuries we’ve only had Crawford, Sjax, and Maggette play together for so many games.
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
http://goallineblitz.com/game/signup.pl?ref=4892220
Me likey reed good
I speaka gr8 2!
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 23, 2009 7:32 AM PST up reply actions
Of course losing one of your best players is problematic for any team. And yes, we’ve had more injuries than just Monta. But look at the construction of the team. When looking at a healthy roster you still have to ask, who plays 4? Maggette? We disagree on Turiaf’s ability as a back up center, I think we really need a full sized center and someone who can rebound, more than a shot blocker. I mean, we have one player who can rebound! When everyone’s healthy! And don’t forget, we’re discounting Monta’s ability to actually run the point because Crawford has been average at it. We don’t have any proven player who can set up teammates. That is just poorly thought out or poorly executed.
Yes, we may score a lot of points. Yes, it may be very fun to watch. And yes, we should win more games. But that’s incredibly short sighted, IMO. We are not a well constructed team and shouldn’t be able to go anywhere against good teams, much less in a playoff situation. We’ve signed players that have taken up all our cap space so that we can’t add the players we need to get to that level. We certainly don’t need Crawford, Ellis, Maggette, Buike, Bellinelli, Jax, Morrow all together. Especially since we recently traded for Crawford and signed Maggette.
All is not lost, we need to make a big trade or two to get complimentary players. But regardless of how well Monta plays and how the team improves in the short term, the moves taken as a whole have been very poor thus far.
Monta/Craw/Jax/Maggs split time at the 1/2/3 with 5 minutes here and there with all 4 on the court. Each can take 36 minutes. Not rocket science.
Turiaf? Back up big. Plain and simple, that’s his position until he learns to stay on his feet and rebound. The only signing problem is really Crawford, and that was more to get rid of Al… whatever. Only bad move I see is Crawford, which is supposedly trading big for small, but Al wasn’t really a big.
Our roster sucked last year and the year before, we had one big. Our roster is going to suck next year unless Wright or Draft Pick X steps into a starting role. It’s not like we had a strong PF that we traded away or anything…
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 23, 2009 7:38 AM PST up reply actions
We had a team similar to this one, but with Baron and Monta. Those two were probably worth about 2 dozen wins over the course of the season,. Cut that from last year’s total and pace to win 25 is just about right.
The problem came from expectations that without them the team wouldn’t suffer the sort of fall that their contributions last year really suggested would happen. These expectations werefueled by some inflated opinion of Jackson’s value relative to Baron and Monta, the expectation that Maggette would pick up some of the slack, the expectation that Wright would be able to contribute (he has) and get playing time to make it matter (he hasn’t) and the expectation that the loss of Barnes and Pietrus — two guys who despite faults did contribute — would be made up for with more PT for Azubuike and other guys off the bench.
Reality: Maggs probably offset the loss of Barnes and Pietrus, but did nothing to cut into the Baron/Monta deficit. Jax contributes what he does but cannot offset this. Wright hasn’t played much so he hasn’t offset this loss. Crawford for Harrington was pretty close to a wash for production — we might have come out a bit ahead — but not a big enough change to notice when two of your three best players are gone. The assorted acceptable play from guys off the bench (I’ll toss Azubuike in here, even if he’s often a starter) is at best break even with last year, but can’t do much to erase the void in star production the back court.
I was overly optimistic and thought the team could compete for low 40 wins if everything went right before Monta’s injury. Everything, including moped, has not gone right.
I was overly optimistic and thought the team could compete for low 40 wins if everything went right before Monta’s injury.
That was not over optimistic at the time, it still sounds like the best guess to me.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 23, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
My issue isn’t that we can’t find the minutes for Monta/Craw/Jax/Maggs, it’s that we have too many of our best players (and salaries) at essentially the same positions. Yes they can all get 36 minutes, but somebody still has to play 48 at the 4 and 5 spots.
Not only that, Buike, Bellinelli and CJ to a much lesser extent, are certainly capable back up players who can play roles. And I’m not comfortable yet with our 1 spot, I think all those players at 2/3’s. I think it’s fairly obvious that the team is imbalanced, very heavy in a couple of positions.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
"UNSTOPPABLE BABY!"
Golden State Warriors rookie Marc Jackson to the Mavericks' bench, after hitting a lay-up during a 29-point loss (2000)
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
Most Commented
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
