Monta Ellis is an Underrated Point Guard
by GSW9 on Jan 4, 2009 1:35 PM PST
100 comments
Every where i go i always hear that the Warriors need a PG and that Monta is not a PG. I think that ellis is an underated passer. I know that he is not a elite PG like Paul, Deron, Kidd, or Nash but I think people don't give credit to Monta for improving as a point guard.
I think that him being around Baron Davis for those 3 years have helped him and i have seen Monta make alot of passes that have impressed me alot. In High School Monta averaged like 38 points and 8 assits and i know that that was high school but he also averaged 6 assits in like the last 15 games of the season And i know you guys have seen the games like at home against Boston last year where he had some crazy passes and the behind the back pass to Baron against the Kings also. I feel Monta has gotton smarter since he has been in the league and has improved his vision and ball handling skills enough to where he can be a pretty good PG for us. Look at Mo Williams who plays for the Cavaliers and the sucess he has had. Now i know hes playing with LeBron but he is not an elite PG but he gets the job done for Cleveland and they have a great record. But i am getting sick of people saying he has never played PG before and he is not the answer when that is not the case. One we haven't seen Monta play yet so we can't say he isn't the answer at point just yet. And Monta has played point before so that is a lie. Now I know that monta is injured and he may not ever be the same again but if he can come back and play like him self and continue to improve i see no reason to not believe he could get 8 assits a game. And i think the problem alot of people have is how is he gonna adjust to scoreing and knowing when to pass but i think Ellis will do just find. Call me crazy but i think in his prime Monta can average 23 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assits, and 2 steals while still shooting around 49 percent on FG and 80 percent from the line. What do you guys think about Monta as our PG
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Monta
Is Monta really a point guard, though? To me, he’s more suited to play the other guard position. It’s just more natural for him.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jan 4, 2009 2:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
He was a PG until the Warriors made him a SG
We’re going to have to wait to see exactly how good he’ll be but I’m sure he will bring more chemistry to the team with his scoring and distributing
by T-Money on Jan 4, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sure was
he played point all throughout his high school career
by J2daZ on Jan 4, 2009 11:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No
He took the ball up court but if he took it up he shot the ball. RL Horton was the PG
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 1:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets not mess him up by forcing him to play PG
his natural position is SG. Let him be,keep Jamal Crawford at the PG for now, but Monta does have nice passes though.
We Believe 2.0!
I know the Warriors are a lot better than the way they're playing right now.
They just have to get healthy and dig deep. THERE'S MORE TO THIS TEAM.
by RunNdGun on Jan 4, 2009 2:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
i agree.
6 & 8 are running mates. imagine the quickness to the rim with those 2 and bieds/wright waiting for the inside pass… or jackson/morrow/rambo waiting for the kickout. maggette seems very expendable when monta returns.
by diablo21911 on Jan 5, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Natural or Unnatural...
The guy works harder than anyone on the Warriors. He is blindly confident, and commits himself fully to self improvement.
By understanding his mentality, you can understand his potential as a PG.
Yes he can play PG, or SG. Yes he will be able to create for others in the right situation. And yes… he will be able to take over scoring when needed as well.
The guy has a high B-Ball IQ, and he will do whatever he needs to do for the team to win.
He’s a play maker. Playmakers make up the top PG’s in the NBA. Chris Paul… playmaker – - Deron Williams… playmaker — Baron Davis… playmaker.
Jamal Crawford is NOT a playmaker, and should NOT continue to play PG. Let Monta take the reigns and HAVE FAITH in the Mississippi Bullet.
by Gurthy on Jan 4, 2009 2:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
What?
Thought Belli was the hardest worker on the team? What makes you think that Monta is the hardest working player on the team? Because he is trying to come back from an injury to help his team after they have only won 10 games up to this point in the season? I think not….. What makes you think that he can play PG? Last year Baron ran the show and when he didn’t Monta took the ball up the court to his right side and passed the ball. In Nellieball, a PG isn’t necessary but I would still not classify Monta as a PG. He creates off his speed and pick and rolls; but he hasn’t shown us anything yet to led us to think that he can pass or be as crafty as a CP3, D-Will, or Baron. Monta is not a playmaker at this point in his years in the league but for the sake of us, we hope that Monta will be a playermaker…. Monta took over a little last year but for most of the 4th quarter, we relied on Baron, than Jax, THAN Monta. So he must prove to us that he can be capable of taking over the reigns of being an even average PG in the league. We know he can score, but can he play D, pass well, not turn the ball over, and be the man in the 4th? That, we must wait and see…..
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 4, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
biedrins
can also be in this arguement…lol just saying
we gon' make 'em run, make 'em follow the lead
nelly on the side lines with tricks up his sleeve
in the bay, we go hard cause we playin' for passion
you know who it is, aint no need for askin'
by thecity_8 on Jan 4, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
In Nellieball, a PG isn’t necessary
…based on results, I think I might disagree.
by Zack Vank on Jan 4, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well Maggette and Crawford is here now... its a whole new system
Don’t think Nellieball is in effect anymore
We Believe 2.0!
I know the Warriors are a lot better than the way they're playing right now.
They just have to get healthy and dig deep. THERE'S MORE TO THIS TEAM.
by RunNdGun on Jan 4, 2009 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A PG
isn’t necessary because most Nellie PG’s aren’t the classic PG’s in the league. He cares more for many shooters than a PG who can run plays. Nash, was the exception but Baron, even though he could pass, was more effective because he could shoot & drive. But Like RunNdGun says below, Nellieball isn’t in effect because its all iso’s nd pick & rolls since this team can’t shoot like Nellie teams of earlier years
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 12:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well present day nellieball isn't working anymore
so yeah, lets go back to old school nellieball, which actually works and relies on a true pg. unless you’re saying that this team doesn’t need someone with nash’s talent and skillset, then i’m going to have to disagree with you.
by amhd388 on Jan 5, 2009 11:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously he’s shown flashes being the MAN in the 4th. He’s the one who carried the Warriors last year in the second half of the season. Where was Baron?… Jax? Monta ran the show. Averaging more and more assists throughout the second half…. growing as a passer and a PLAYMAKER!
The guy is fully dedicated to improving himself against all odds. Do you know his background and how he grew up? Bellinelli didn’t have to worry about being shot every time he wanted to shoot hoops in the playground as a kid.
The end of my statement was HAVE FAITH. The kid has done nothing but impress, and surpass expectations. So expect the same. Or don’t, and you’ll just be another doubter he proves wrong.
by Gurthy on Jan 4, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
He showed flashes of being the MAN in the 4th because the threats of Baron & Jax. Teams would attempt to lock down Baron and use the 2nd or 3rd option to beat them. But Baron was the man, not Monta. It’s easy to have assist when you at most the 2nd option….
He is dedicated but to outright say he is the most dedicated is a bit of a strech. How do you know what Belli went through in Italy? Isn’t is pretty F’d up over there? And to let you know, yes, unfortunately I know exactly how he grew up. 1. 82nd & Birch in East Oakland is worse than any spot in Jackson 2. I went to boarding school in Mississippi (Piney Woods) & played the guy my 10th grade year (In the Jackson Coliseum) and 4. I know his cousin because we went to the same school and after 7th grade, the kid was untouchable in MS because he was there future.
I hope he can be a good PG, I told my friends out here when I was school in Mississippi that he can score quickly and he is ridiculously fast and he’ll be hella fun to watch. Shyt, I’m all for the guy becoming a good PG so that we don’t have to get another PG in the draft because than we’ll be extremely small up front since there aren’t any big PGs in the draft and our biggest concern is a big PF, not a PG. So if he becomes a half way decent PG, we won’t have to worry about thinking about drafting a PG because we have a solid one in Monta. So I have hope, but I wouldn’t put him near a CP3 type player for years to come.
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 12:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Call me crazy ?
How about just not thinking well? Why would we want to develop a great 2 guard into a mediocre point guard when we could just keep Montay at his 2 spot and get a natural point guard? or play Crawford at the 2 spot and trade Montay for a better point guard or maybe even a power forward? The gimmicks are already killing us so we need to get back to basics, and positions are pretty basic.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2009 2:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
positions
like everything else in the game, evolve – two guards who could both handle the ball and score were much more common not too long ago, as in the Celtics with DJ & Ainge for example … we could have a roster that allows similar flexibility to the Pistons, who had both combo guards and point guard in Zeke … there’s really no reason not to try Monta at PG now – this whole season should be about evaluating our players. IF he could play PG that would be a pretty valuable thing to develop around, and if not we then know precisely what Monta’s limits are moving forward.
by hardcore on Jan 4, 2009 6:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
two guards who could both handle the ball and score were much more common not too long ago,
Yeah, the key word is handle the ball. Montay can score but he’s a poor ball handler to build around. He’s never going to be a Baron Davis or a Steve Nash.
Sure the season is a write off and we can play him at point but that seems like a bad plan for the future. It’s possible to remove a hexnut with pliers but it’s not ideal, better to get a proper wrench.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2009 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
just keep Montay at his 2 spot and get a natural point guard
Any particular available “natural point guard” you had in mind, Skep, or is this just a magical door #3 guy like the mythical big man who would have turned the “We Believe” team into championship contenders?
Devin Harris, who a year ago people most of us would have considered inferior to Monta, is currently vying with Rondo and Deron for the title of “best PG in the NBA not named CP3.” Given our available PG options, trying Monta at PG is an absolute no-brainer.
OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 4, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Any particular available "natural point guard" you had in mind
Well, who are you willing to trade? I can probably find some one if I offer Montay and one or two other players, or maybe our soon to be first round lottery pick? Anything would be better than this morass we’re stuck in.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm willing to trade the whole team for CP3.
After that, I get a little stingier. I’d trade most of the team for Deron or Derrick Rose (Rose isn’t there yet, but I think he’s the only other guy with realistic franchise PG potential).
Those three are really the only franchise guys out there. And naturally, none of them are remotely available.
After that you’re talking the next tier — guys like Parker, Rondo, Devin Harris, Calderon, old man Nash and Kidd, brick-hoister Baron, etc. I’d put a healthy Monta in the same class or higher than any of those guys.
Giving our franchise player away for a pile of crap who happens to consider himself a “natural PG” (Starbury e.g.) would actually be a good deal worse than this morass we’re stuck in.
OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 4, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Devin Harris is a Franchise PG to NJ and Dallas ( They’re crying at the emergence of Dev). He will not be traded.
But to put an unproven PG in Monta in a class that includes Nash, Kidd, Parker is an insult to them
Rondo & Calderon are coming into there own this year but aren’t untoucable.
I’d give Starbury the benefit of the doubt since he averagaes 8 assist over his career and he can score too.
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 1:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you were following the discussion
The question was not “who are the best PGs ever,” in an abstract sense, but “what PGs, right now, would be worth dumping Monta and some of our other pieces for?” Harris I’ll grant. Parker is young enough that might you consider him — though I think Monta is roughly his equal as a player. Kidd and Nash, given their ages (going on 36 and 35 respectively), just don’t have a lot of value to to us now, unless you’re excited about improving a couple of games from an execrable team to a merely horrible one. Given the reality of our current team, would you actually consider trading Monta-plus for Kidd or Nash?
In their primes, Nash and Kidd were both fantastic players, obviously — either one easily worth trading Monta for. But they had both serious enough flaws (specifically, Kidd’s poor shooting and Nash’s lack of rebounding and D) to prevent them from being the type of guys who could lead you to a final as your unquestioned best player. Chris Paul right now is a better player than Kidd or Nash ever were.
OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 5, 2009 4:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Harris I’ll grant.
Don’t want him, he’s forever Jrich’s little bitch. I like that Calderon kid, Maybe Montay and Marco for Calderon and who? OK, Montay, Dris, and Marco for Calderon and Jefferson? We got a deal Sleepy?
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which Jefferson?
Al? In a three way deal? Show me the espn trade machine page (with the li’l green bar saying THIS TRADE SUCCEEDED) and I’ll ponder it.
On the face of it, I’m dubious. Somehow I always think Al Jefferson’s a bit of an “empty 20-10” type. I don’t think anyone in Celtics Nation misses him for a second (the championship helps, but still). Biedrins is obviously no great shakes on D, but he’s probably better than Jefferson. AB has also been more durable, with a body type that looks like it’ll age much more gracefully. On balance, I’d take Biedrins’ superior rebounding, defense, and durability over Jefferson’s smooth post game and jumper.
As for Monta v. Calderon: it’s close. Calderon’s unselfishness, efficiency, handles, and hilarious 1.000 FT% are pretty appealing. But he doesn’t have Monta’s hops, finish, nose for the rim, or rare “one-man fastbreak” ability to break down a defense in the halfcourt. And he’s 27. Assuming Monta returns to 100 percent health, I’ll take Monta by a hair.
Forget the Marco part. I’ll take Monta and AB over Jefferson and Calderon, straight up.
OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 5, 2009 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Forget the Marco part. I’ll take Monta and AB over Jefferson and Calderon, straight up.
You mean you would give then Montay and Dris to get rid of Marco? That’s a big opportunity wasted.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
If the Raps really want a Marco/Andrea combo to appeal to their Italian fanbase — Toronto apparently has the world’s biggest Italian population outside of Italy — maybe they could be persuaded to part with Calderon and Bosh for the privilege?
Say… Marco, Crawford, Maggette, Randolph, Wright, Nellie’s whiskey collection, and Cohan’s head on a platter for the pair?
OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 5, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i was worried we were going to need to throw in jack’s gun or marcus williams’ laptops.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jan 5, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Say… Marco, Crawford, Maggette, Randolph, Wright, Nellie’s whiskey collection, and Cohan’s head on a platter for the pair?
Or just keep it simple, Montay, Marco, and Dris for Bosh and Calderon, then we’d be set.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't talking about the
“Best PG Ever”. No, I wouldn’t trade Monta for a J-Kidd but I would trade Monta for Nash. He can pass AND shoot. Than we could draft a PG and Nash could help him develop until he retires.
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 9:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Than we could draft a PG and Nash could help him develop until he retires.
This doesn’t really work in practice. Otherwise Marcus Williams would be awesome after learning from Jason Kidd, Marcus Banks would be awesome after backing up Nash, etc. Sorry… doesn’t work.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 6, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was trying to be optimistic
like how Chauncey helped Stuckey or Fish helped Farmar or JTerry helped Harris
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 6, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're really referencing Jason Terry as a "superstar PG mentor"?
Really? Dude, “puff, puff, pass”, not “puff, puff, puff, puff, puff, puff, puff, puff, puff…”
Unless you can provide a statistical correlation between having a star PG on your roster and then having a young PG prospect turning into a star PG, stop it. It’s a good theory, but there are just as many (if not more) examples of young PGs turning into nothing under the “mentoring” of start PGs than there are of the youngins turning into a quality player.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 7, 2009 7:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't
saying that JT or Fish were superstar PGs, I’m just saying that with a bit of leadership and someone to follow, they can monld a good PG….. I wasn’t saying that you have to be a superstar to make a difference.
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 7, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
how about
we just keep monta and see what he does. it would be stupid to trade him
by Ali luvs monta on Jan 23, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
monta will kick ass
i would not trade him for any of the other pgs, you’ll see, he will emerge this season. he was on the verge of greatness (actually he was greatness), he will get back into the NBA and get better
by Ali luvs monta on Jan 26, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nellie's a loser
and devin harris is yet another example of a player who becomes a star when the disastrous effects of nellie-ball have worn off.
by nelliehater on Jan 4, 2009 10:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Harris played for Avery Johnson and grew tremendously under both Nelson and Johnson
to become the player he is now under Frank – interesting NYT article about him this past Sunday
by hardcore on Jan 5, 2009 7:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t know if Monta will be an Mediocre PG because he hasn’t even played as the full time PG yet. Yes Monta is a great 2 but the whole reason we got Crawford was so that they could play off each other just like Baron and Monta did last year. I believe Monta can be a better 1 than he a good 2
by GSW9 on Jan 4, 2009 2:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
the whole reason we got Crawford
was because Nelson and Harrington couldn’t co-exist anymore – there was never a need or plan to add another guard to Jackson, etc.
we could have and should have held out for a better match to our club’s needs in moving Harrington, while admitting we weren’t likely to get a dominant PF, we should have gotten a better contract situation at least
not saying Crawford and Ellis couldn’t coexist necessarily, but that wasn’t the genesis of getting Crawford at all
by hardcore on Jan 4, 2009 6:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nellie's a loser
and al harrington is yet another example of a player who becomes a star (30 pts and 7 rebounds vs the celts today) after the disastrous effects of nellie-ball have worn off.
by nelliehater on Jan 4, 2009 10:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yet another?
Harrington’s been leading NY in scoring at over 22 ppg, just as I’d hoped he’d’ve done for us – but to be fair, he’s also shooting more FGApg and his FG% is down from his career avg. And as another prominent poster is fond of pointing out his rebounding and assists are down.
I’m not usually a stat guy, but according to Hollinger’s “true” shooting percentage, which factors in FT as well, also illustrates his actual shooting prowess has declined. His turnovers are up, and his PER is down. In short, he’s scoring more but shooting more poorly and not producing as well in other categories …
The true irony of your comment is that far from being freed of nellie-ball, he’s playing for the most uptempo coach in the league.
And, I have to ask, who are all the other players who’ve become a star since leaving Nelson’s clutches?
by hardcore on Jan 4, 2009 11:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
don’t expect a real answer. first of all, because there aren’t any, and second of all, because it seems like don nelson did something terrible to the poster that you’re asking. i think it might be mark cuban. bitter about needing to pay nellie and getting his team bounced from the playoffs a couple years back, he’s taken to hitting gsom and calling for his bitter enemy’s head.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jan 4, 2009 11:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
simply casting light upon the darkness
by hardcore on Jan 4, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nellie's a loser
and the answers are: c webb, d harris, m ellie, v askew, s marcelonis, s nash
by nelliehater on Jan 9, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wrong, again and again and again and again
cwebb was an immediate star WITH nelson – even the most inane GSW fan would know that even if they didn’t follow Harris – who has become a star in NJ – two coaches removed from Nelson. Ellie?! loved him, but he never was a star, neither was Askew, nor Sarunas with or without Nelson. If these are your examples of stars, you are woefully mistaken. Nash became a star – drafted by Nelson and continued becoming a bigger one throughout his career, thanks to the start Nelson gave him.
by hardcore on Jan 18, 2009 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so that they could play off each other just like Baron and Monta did last year
Both of them together can’t defend as well as Boom by himself, so how do you propose they’ll play like Boom and Montay did?
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
uhh
i know montas an underatted point, but your overarting him…
he averaged 6.7 in highschool, and flashy passess dont mean good pg skillls, you need to see the floor, be aware of where eveyone is, and you should be an extention of the coach..and i dont think montas gonna be averaging 23 and 8..
i think 23 and 6 is realistic, still thats good numbers, as long as he keeps the turnovers down
by gswfan1 on Jan 4, 2009 3:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it is about him being a good or Great PG
It is more about what type of system we are running and Monta’s ability to drive will be a huge advantage to what we have currently. If Monta can come back and still be an affective slasher, he will draw defenses in and have gyus to kick to for open looks
by shooter1525 on Jan 4, 2009 4:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Did you say kidd is an elite point guard? Kidd sucks!
by rainman120 on Jan 4, 2009 6:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Its one of those
“Back in the Day” kind of things.
If I am wrong i will respond with a D'Oh
by StephenO4 on Jan 4, 2009 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nellie's a loser
and is the most overrated coach in nba history.
jason kidd, however, is the most overrated pt guard in nba history. he single-handedly made triple-doubles meaningless. guys like oscar and magic had 30/20/15 types of games, kidd’s lifetime triple-double avg is 14/12/11. and his best years were in pre-marbury phoenix for god’s sake. and his shooting actually got WORSE as the years progressed.
by nelliehater on Jan 4, 2009 10:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nelliehater is just a Hater
How can you diss any triple-doubles? They’re hella hard to get…. Kidd has 100 of em averaging 17/11/12! He’s a first ballot hall of famer and is one of the most respected players in the NBA & the Bay Area community you fool. And yes he doesn’t shoot as well as he did when he was younger, but very few get better with age He probably should retire now but hey, its his choice, just like Jordan should have retired when he was right on top but didn’t. And triple double wise, he had 15 his first 3 years and has had 33 the past 3 years. So he still doing something right so stfu and resepect the guy.
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 1:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nelliehater's a douche-troll for sure
Obviously, Kidd was a fabulous player and deserves tons of respect.
Still, the troll is right to diss triple-doubles. I mean, the triple double is kind of a proxy for a serious statistic in that guys who can put them up are generally very good players. But then, guys who put up 18/7/12 or 13/9/15 or 28/18/6 or any other combo of three big numbers are also generally very good players.
To suggest, simply because humans have ten fingers rather than nine or twelve, that a 14-11-10 line is imbued with some special, magical quality that, say, a 38-16-9 line doesn’t have is the essence of statistical silliness.
OBAMA AMABO
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 5, 2009 5:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
actually
if you factor in pace of play, kidd’s triple doubles are just as amazing. consider that during Magic’s era, last years Warriors, Nuggets, and Suns would be the slowest teams in the NBA. the league avg for pace of play since Kidd has entered the league till now has hovered around 90 (88-92). back when Magic was playing it was 102 ish. that means each team had 12 more opportunities to score, assist, rebound or in other words get more stats.
and the pace of play during Oscar’s time (the 60s) was even faster. imagine what guy’s stats would be if there were 30 more possessions for each team….. some teams were shooting over 130 times per game!! consider the W’s only shoot an avg of 88 times per game… how many more points would they score (along with other stats) if they shot over 40 more times?
NBA averages. (no 3 pointer)
Season P/G 2% FT% P/FGA FGA/G
1959-0 115.3 .410 .734 0.927 124.4
1960-1 118.1 .415 .733 0.939 125.8
1961-2 118.8 .426 .727 0.957 124.1
1962-3 115.3 .441 .726 0.985 117.1
1963-4 111.0 .433 .722 0.970 114.5
1964-5 110.6 .426 .721 0.958 115.5
1965-6 115.5 .433 .727 0.973 118.7
1966-7 117.4 .441 .732 0.987 119.0
1967-8 116.6 .446 .719 0.996 117.1
1968-9 112.3 .441 .714 0.981 114.4
remarkably (bad), the average shooting % for teams in the 50s was under 40….. actually the 1st 2 nba seasons produced under 30 shooting as the league average…
Season P/G 2% FT% PPFGA FGA/G
1946-7 67.8 .279 .641 0.693 103.9
1947-8 72.7 .284 .675 0.674 107.9
1948-9 80.0 .327 .703 0.781 102.4
1949-0 80.0 .340 .715 0.820 97.6
1950-1 84.1 .357 .732 0.855 98.3
1951-2 83.7 .367 .735 0.877 95.5
1952-3 82.4 .370 .716 0.887 92.9
1953-4 79.5 .372 .709 0.885 89.9
1954-5 93.1 .385 .738 0.911 102.2
1955-6 99.0 .387 .745 0.916 108.1
1956-7 99.6 .380 .751 0.899 110.8
1957-8 106.6 .383 .746 0.898 118.7
1958-9 108.2 .395 .756 0.915 118.3
and basically, the more possessions, more chances for assists, rebounds, points and other stats. if there were 30 more possessions for each team per game, guys like Dwight, Camby and Andris would easily average over 20 rebounds per game. Lebron would average triple doubles every year. it would be insane. kind of like how the old timer’s stats are insane…
by the evil monkey on Jan 5, 2009 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
interesting
thanks for the post.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
by kenntoe on Jan 5, 2009 11:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope he worked on his handles lately
From what i remember he couldn’t handle the ball very well with his left hand. As a PG he’ll be guarded by real PG’s and that will be the biggest difficultly for him IMO. The whole league knows that he’ll be a converted PG and pressure his dribble. If ball-handling is not natural enough for him, that pressure will create turnovers and disturb his court awareness and vision. Also, with his natural instincts as a scorer he will have to try to find the balance between scoring and sharing the ball.
I’m still in “wait and see” mode and i hope for the best for him, but i’m not inclined to believe that it’s an easy transition and i’m not so quick to declare the project a success before it’s even started. I predict he’ll be back at SG before the end of the season.
I pray i never have to use a gun again...
...unless i'm at a strip club parking lot...
...and somebody tries to run me over with their car...
...But how often does that happen??
by ssmokinjoe on Jan 4, 2009 6:43 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
maybe he can learn the handles from crawford...
imo crawford has some of the best handles in the league
by DeepS on Jan 4, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
dont get me wrong
Crawford and BD have some nice handles, but Monta would be best served to just learn to protect the ball from the talented true pg’s in the NBA. And1 moves are not needed to be successful in the league, but you do need to be able to withstand defensive pressure while keeping your head up. If you’re able to reasonably do that, then you can worry about running the offense and making the on the fly decisions required of a pg.
I pray i never have to use a gun again...
...unless i'm at a strip club parking lot...
...and somebody tries to run me over with their car...
...But how often does that happen??
by ssmokinjoe on Jan 4, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How can we say
he’s underrated or overrated if he hasn’t played fulltime PG yet?
Hasheem "The Dream" Thabeet or Brandon Jennings. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Jan 4, 2009 7:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Behind the back passing, sick moves
they mean nothing to me as far as being a good point guard. Almost every guard in the league has the finesse and coordination to make flashy passes. It’s all about knowing where to be on the floor and how to get your defender to the correct side of your body that enables you to make the pass. Then you got to think about where your teammate will be during the play after you put the move on your man that’s going to free you up. As his confidence and feel for the game improves, he’s going to hesitate less to take chances and this is going to allow growth. Belinelli has better vision.
BUT, I think the Warriors had something special with Baron and Ellis in the back court together, and I’d love to see the team acquire another physical specimen at the point, 6-3 or 6-4 over 200 lbs. Not something we can pick up off the side of the road, but having a distributor who’s big enough to even out the match ups with Monta playing his natural position at the 2, would be great. Someone like Deron Williams and Monta together would make a dream tandem. Azubuike, our golden sixth man of the future, is going to play great alongside Monta and our prototype, and as his defense improves, we’re going to have ourselves a STAGGERING 3 guard rotation soon. I hope.
by Travis Bickle on Jan 4, 2009 7:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
PG
For Monta to be great he’ll have to play at the point. Monta is a good shooting guard but he’s a liability on defense because of his size. If he stays at SG for the rest of his career, I’m sure he would be a good two-guard for years to come but if he were able to learn to play at point more efficiently he will definitely achieve greatness. He surely has the capacity to. He has shown flashes of it in the past. However, as of right now, when you think of Monta, you think of him scoring, that’s it. In a couple of years if he gets to run the show at point, I see him as an explosive, playmaking, pick’n’roll nightmare, excellent mid-range shooting Tony Parker.
by SPREEE4THREEE on Jan 4, 2009 8:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
For Monta to be great he’ll have to play at the point. Monta is a good shooting guard but he’s a liability on defense because of his size.
Then why not trade him and get someone suited for their natural position? A bigger shooting guard or a ball handling point guard? Why invest so much effort trying to overcome Montay’s shortcomings?
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i am so glad you are not making decisions in the front office
players like monta do not come around that often. hes not a bad ball handler i dont know where you got that idea from but you do not try to trade a 23 year old whose had near identical stats to kobe bryant in their first 3 seasons. monta may have a few “shortcomings” but so does kobe bryant and lebron james. should the cavs and lakers trade them away because they have a few shortcomings
by montamazing on Jan 4, 2009 10:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The name says it all
Of course you don’t want Monta to be traded. But he is small and is going to have a hard time guarding players in the league so you have to listen to what Skeptic is saying. If there was a way to swap for Kevin Martin I’d trade asap! Than we know we could trade some of the guards for maybe a half way decent PF (Milsaps or somethin) and draft a maybe a Jennings, Rubio, Jrue, Collison, Maynor, Flynn etc. etc. etc.
And you really tried to compare Monta to LeBron & Kobe? Sad…..
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 2:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
with monta playing the point guard he will be guarding the other teams point guard
that will not be any trouble for him seeing as he is quicker than almost all pg’s in the league and also has a size advantage on most so they won’t be able to back him down. monta could develop into a good defender and some of the best defenders in the history of the game were undersized. issiah thomas anyone? yeah, you sure know what you’re talking about…
why would you trade for kevin martin. he has been injured for half his career, and though he may have a height advantage on monta he weighs the same amount, and monta is a better rebounder. nuff said.
and go ahead and put words in my mouth saying im comparing kobe and lebron to monta. im simply saying every player has weaknesses. you dont ship away a player for their weaknesses you build them into your strenghts ala michael jordan.
whats sad is that you feel the need to put words into my mouth in order to help your argument.
monta has superstar written all over him, and as a warrior fan you will soon feel foolish.
by montamazing on Jan 5, 2009 5:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As a Warrior fan I always feel foolish. I like Monta, he’s fearless going to the basket, he pushes the ball up the floor, he scores efficiently, and he’s fast as hell. I also think he can be a good defensive 1, if energy was put into it. He was a much better defender his first year, imo, because they put him on 1’s and he stayed in front of them all the way up the floor. As his scoring developed, and as he played on a team without any focus on defense, he’s gotten lazier on that end. But he should be a good defender and I think would be if he were pushed.
I also think at this point it makes sense to see how he recovers and to also see how he plays at the 1. Trading for Crawford was an obvious attempt to get more ball handlers in the backcourt. The best way to take pressure off Monta is to have another player who can bring the ball up the court. So I’m willing to see how it unfolds, and I think it is the most prudent decision.
However, comparing him to Devon Harris or Tony Parker at this point in his career, as some have, is wrong. Those guys were already good playmakers for others. Monta’s still got a lot to prove in that regard. AI’s most effective years were playing along side Eric Snow, who would defend, run the team and do the little things AI couldn’t while he was scoring 28. There is certainly the chance that Monta never develops his playmaking needs to be paired with an big 1. Time will tell.
If Monta can turn himself into a pretty good playmaker, with his quickness and scoring ability he becomes one of the better points in the league. Maybe not top 5, but certainly top 10. If he can’t, and he remains a good scoring 2 who needs a playmaking big 1 next to him to be effective, then he loses some value.
by jmaaan on Jan 5, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What Size? He cannot guard a
big PG in the league (Calderon, Baron) or a guard that lives off pick and rolls (Nash, Rondo). He’s too small to match up to the big ones and too small to guard the others because he doesn’t fight through the pick and roll situations. He has blazing speed, I will not deny that, but how well was he guarding players last year with that speed? He has great up and down speed, not side to side. Yes, Issiah is def a dime in a dozen. For one of the 50 greatest players that is an undersized defender (Isiah), there are many more bad undersized defenders (Allen Iverson, Gilbert Arenas, Jason Williams, Nash, Bibby, Marbury, Crawford )…..
Why trade for Kevin Martin? As I said above, I would trade Kevin Martin for Monta because Martin only is a SG while we know that Monta is a small combo guard. He’s best playing the 2 but is too small play the 2 so if we trade for Kevin Martin, we could trade for a half way decent big man and pick up an actual PG. Martin would be specificly the 2 and ____ would be the 1 while ____ would be the 4.
Um, Monta does have a few shortcomings. Passing, Strength, D.
LeBron? Um, Free Throws…. Kobe? I’m trying to figure that one out still…..
And well, I use your words to capitalize off the shocking things you say thats all. My information is fact and right now and I would rather put him next to future stars than claim him the king of the city like you are. My point is that I would trade him for a more balanced team with a better shot of winning and with that said, I would sacrafice Monta for Ladry, Milsaps type of player, exact SG (Kevin Martin) & drafting a playmaking PG that is still avaliable on the board if the dominoes fell in place which would be very possible.
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 11:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
where do i start
lebron’s shortcomings: shooting, hes not a good shooter from the perimeter. his freethrows are improved
kobe: terrible leader, selfish, and if you’re going to say monta is a bad passer, then kobe is a bad one too. similar assist to ratio
kevin martin is more of a liability on the defensive end than monta. kevin martin ways 190 same as monta, any sg can push this guy around.
and since when did a 6 foot 3 190lb pg become small. monta is a big pg and i can only think of a few other pg’s that are bigger. deron, baron, nash, paul…who else?
calderon is not bigger by the way. he’s 6 foot 3 and might have 10 more lbs on monta. monta also probably weighs more than he is marked for because if you see him you know hes gained a lot of muscle since his first couple years. i have no worries about monta and it would be foolish to try and trade him before he gets a chance to prove himself like he has throughout his career
by montamazing on Jan 6, 2009 12:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Um
LeBron doesn’t shoot that well…. 47 is pretty good. He’s not a good 3 Pt shooter and he is improving.
Kobe…… Everyone else is calling him a good leader on his team today…. And Kobe almost averages 5 and Monta averages 3. Kobe’s scoring and assist is similar to MJ’s with 5 points less scoring..
Kevin Martin is 190 and Monta is 180 so he is still considered small. Plus Martin either guards the weaker SF or SG…. If Martin is here, Jax can guard the scorer and Martin can still do him…..
If Calderon is 190 and Monta is 180 Calderon is a bigger. When Monta came into the league, he was 163, so he has gained a few pounds and I hope he gains more of course.
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 6, 2009 7:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
lebron is a terrible shooter outside the paint, thats a fact
kobe is not a good leader, they might be saying he is now, but what were they saying after they lost in the finals last year, or when he demanded a trade and was talking smack about bynum. hes a bad leader because when things aren’t going the way he wants he doesn’t make them better, he tries to bolt.
calderon is 10lbs heavier than monta, do you think 10lbs really makes a difference.
its not like monta could push around steve blake…
monta is listed as smaller than he is. tony parker is listed as being bigger than him and i know for a fact that isn’t true
by montamazing on Jan 6, 2009 7:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LeBron
is def becoming a better shooter outside of the lane and thats a fact. Yes he gets all the highlights in the paint but he has def become a better shooter. He was a leader before they lost. Yes demanding a trade and calling out players is bad but nothing new. Jax has called out the yungins, complains alot, and argue’s calls but we still consider him the leader don’t we? So what makes Kobe different?
If Calderon & Monta were isolated, Calderon would easily back down Monta.
If Monta & Blake were isolated, Monta would face up on him and drive to his right.
I can see Tony Parker at 185, but hopefully Monta is 185. Shyt he should be since he wasn’t able to do nuthin for 3 months. I’d b kinda pissed if he didn’t gain a few pounds at least
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 6, 2009 10:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jax calling out the youngins was clearly a motivational tactic
Kobe flying to Spain to demand that Buss either trade him or Bynum and talking about how much Bynum sucks, is NOT a motivational tactic.
Jax has taken responsibility for leadership on this team. Kobe has been opportunistic. When he realized that his team was good and that Bynum didn’t suck, he said “Hey guys, I’ll be the leader.” Jax certainly isn’t perfect, but just because the media belches “Kobe the leader” BS at you non-stop, doesn’t make it true. You probably won’t get the chance, but if the Lakers ever suck again, Kobe will demand a trade, call out his teammates in a derogatory fashion, and be the pompous a$$ we all know and hate.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 7, 2009 7:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what is wrong with you?
Kevin Martin? seriously that trade proposal is terrible. u think martin is better than monta? monta is a special player (and yes i don’t give a crap about the moped accident so if anyone mentions that to me, then u r wasting ur time). i think monta will develop into one of the best (if not the best) guards in the NBA.
by Ali luvs monta on Jan 26, 2009 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i think monta can be a very good point
he has all the abilities to do it, plus I don’t know many teams that were successful with a 6-3 shooting guard
by Agent Zero on Jan 4, 2009 8:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Passing is not the only thing that defines a true PG
Everyone says the Shaq is a great passer too you know…
Thank you, Dubs.
by misterho on Jan 4, 2009 9:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
not everyone
i never said that
I pray i never have to use a gun again...
...unless i'm at a strip club parking lot...
...and somebody tries to run me over with their car...
...But how often does that happen??
by ssmokinjoe on Jan 4, 2009 9:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
fine
chris webber then?
Thank you, Dubs.
by misterho on Jan 5, 2009 8:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
chris webber then?
No, he din’t say it either.
Till I get free
I live my life in the Walmart
Cholesterol chasin me
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2009 8:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I get scared
when PGs are that good at scoring
by bradyk2 on Jan 4, 2009 10:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
nellie's a loser
and you should ALL be scared of him messing with ellis.
by nelliehater on Jan 4, 2009 10:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Did Nellie
allow Monta to get pt?
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 2:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
or was that another coach?
Be yourself, because everybody else has been taken.
by The Dedication on Jan 5, 2009 2:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nellie's a loser
and yes, his name is mike montgomery
by nelliehater on Jan 9, 2009 11:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but the main point is....
that yes, monta might make a good point guard, just like iverson would make a good point guard. But he’d be playing outta position as a result, as a shooting guard he would be much, much better. why would you not want the star of this franchise (IMO) playing to his full potential in the position he’d be much better suited to?
by amhd388 on Jan 5, 2009 11:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think the primary concern is that even though he may be best as a 2 guard, that might also limit the rest of the team. Additionally, the point guard spot is a more valuable position, as it’s generally harder to find players who excel at that spot on multiple levels, such as scoring, playmaking and defense.
He may limit the rest of the team because he is too small to guard 2’s effectively. Therefore at team must compensate by allowing Monta to guard 1’s and another player to guard the 2’s. To do this requires a back court partner with excellent size, athleticism and toughness who also thrives with the ball in his hands. There are not alot of those guys around. And the ones you do find aren’t always effective on the offensive side of the ball. So, do you let Monta score 24 knowing that the other teams 2 will score 20, or do you let him score 24 knowing your other guard will only score 12?
by jmaaan on Jan 6, 2009 12:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To answer
My own question, I would try to get a complimentary backcourt player. Obviously you can try to jump to the holy grail of a young Jason Kidd, but without that as an option, who could be a good compliment and come reasonably priced? Several players I would consider.
To start with, obviously we’ll try Crawford. He’s not a strong defender of 2’s but he can bring the ball up the court, makes good passes and can score. His problem is he’s not great at running a team and making good decisions, which you really want if Monta proves he can’t do those things either.
Jaric and Foye fit the same mold. Can play both positions and get assists, but aren’t adept at running a team as the primary ball handler.
Hinrich is a very good defender and can guard 2’s even though he’s smaller than most. He played well next to Gordon and he’s a good ball handler and team leader at the 1. He’d be a nice fit but makes $10mm and the Bulls seem to be desperate for his defense and leadership.
Too bad OK hasn’t figured out that Westbrook isn’t the distributor and true point guard they were hoping for. He can be an excellent defender and guard 2’s, he can bring the ball up and I think he can be a leader and run a team. Basically he’s a more athletic, younger version of Hinrich. But a top 5 pick in his first year is still untouchable.
The draft is always filled with “possibilities”. Harden looks like a poor mans Roy. I’d take that next to Ellis. Holiday is a natural choice, he looks a lot like Westbrook in that he is mature for his age, very athletic, can defend, but is a bit of a combo guard. Maybe a better scorer than Westbrook.
Here’s my shocker, Ronnie Brewer. He isn’t a better player but is a much better fit than Crawford, imho. Plays the 2 but can actually defend the 2. Better at running a team and playing tough nosed, scrappy ball. Isn’t a playmaker but makes good decisions with the ball in his hands, can actually run a break and is unselfish. Not ideal like a young Kidd, Wade or Roy, but could be a solid pairing.
by jmaaan on Jan 6, 2009 1:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Amen!
Ellis to the RIM!
Monta for the win?! YES!
by XIAOXIAO on Jan 24, 2009 3:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Monta's chemistry with AB last season was...
nothing short of beautiful. But those are the types of relationships that take time to develop. We saw a moment of it with the massive AR dunk early in the Clippers game. If Monta can get that chemistry with our PFs (Wright, Randolph) and dish for the oops and dunks, then we’ll be set. It’s a big if though….
by FishStix on Jan 27, 2009 12:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
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