Don Nelson- Is he the real reason why our team has crumbled?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 2:43 PM PDT Comment 70 comments

Is he the real reason why our team has crumbled?

I don't get why everyone is so high on he's about to be the winningest coach in history. I mean does it make sense to put a coach among the greatest, especially one who hasn't won a championship or made it out of the conference semifinals once? Now I'm not saying he isnt a great coach cause' the fact is that he is one of the better coaches in the NBA, but only on the offensive side of the game. He's the best at creating offensive mismatches against teams with great defensive players, but has often left the defensive facet of his players go astray. I don't know if you WATCH when the Warriors play defense, but they don't. They get themselves into one-on-one situations in which the opposing team's coach can use Nellie's own mismatches against him.

Any one want some "Bellie"?

Alright all things aside, let's talk about "smallball".

Its fun and exciting and makes you buying a ticket to a game worth it and that is specifically where it ends.

You don't pay to see winning or team defense or any of the quality parts that don't include facial dunks or open court passing. It's all flash and no finish. In fact it's what makes being a season ticket holder a waste. You become a season ticket holder to watch your team win, to watch them contend. Sadly, we can no longer do either.

I gotta admit I LOVE smallball, but when you step back and take a look at the bigger picture it's caused us to decline asa team every single year since our "we believe" playoff run. Everyone's caught on to Nellie's gameplan and though we may have a team with faster 4's and 5's that can handle the ball, we simply don't have defenders. You know your team sucks on defense when Jax is your best defender, he's like a 3rd option on a championship team.

"Guys look! I'm always praying I don't have to defend Kobe"

Anyways, I was bored at work writing this.

Here's a poll for fun!

Poll

Do you still pertain to Nellie's smallball tactics?

Yes

20 votes

No

47 votes

67 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Comments

I think the problem with this is there’s a strong argument the shortcomings you listed aren’t because of Don Nelson. We don’t play good defense because we don’t have good defensive players. We play smallball because the majority of our players that deserve NBA PT are small. So….yeah, what do you expect?

by Missing Barry on Oct 28, 2009 2:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Also

His system is kind of successful when he has the right players. When he has veterans who are confident in their skills, it helps out a lot. That’s why I think Nellie is a decent coach for an experienced athletic team, but not the type of coach you’d want for a rebuilding process as the Warriors are kind of doing now (since we have all these youngsters). He needs players that are ready to go, he’s not really good at developing players anymore (although he did a great job with Nash and Dirk).

Look at the We Believe team. In the 32 games they played together (including Playoff games), they went 21-11 (16-5 in the regular season, 5-6 in the Playoffs).

Also, one thing to factor is that when he has an experienced athletic team who stays healthy, then he’s good enough to lead them to the Playoffs.

An example of this is the 07-08 season. The team stayed pretty healthy and they won 48 games. To put things in perspective, Stephen Jackson was suspended in the first 7 games of the season and we went 1-6 in that span. So basically, if the season started after Jackson’s suspension, then the Warriors record would have been good enough to put them as the number one seed in the Western Conference. The Warriors and Celtics had the best records in the NBA during that time, but it was hard to notice since those 6 games we lost in the beginning of the season made a big impact and put us so low in the ranking. That’s how close the West was that season. The Cavaliers (who made it to the Finals that season) would have been 10th seed in the West that year.

The problem with the Warriors that season was depth, since our main players got tired to end the season, resulting in losing key games that would have sent us to the Playoffs for a second year in a row. Depth is usually easy to fix, so if we still managed to keep that team together and make some additions to add depth and rebounding, Nellie might be a playoff coach by now.

I actually don’t think his coaching is that bad, it just depends on what team he’s coaching. The We Believe team was perfect for him, and if they had someone like Ronny Turiaf or Randolph they could have been more successful (Foyle probably could have made a big difference in that Jazz series, too. But Nellie didn’t want to play him. Every game was close except for Game 5).

It’s harder to go small ball now, because our guards are too small and don’t have as much range as the We Believe team. The 07 team was bigger (Baron as a buff point guard at 6’3", J-Rich as a big shooting guard at 6’6", Matt Barnes, Al Harrington, Stephen Jackson, Mickael Pietrus, etc), they were all also able to shoot threes. The only players on the team without that range were Foyle, Biedrins, POB and Monta.

With the team we have now. Our guards are too skinny and we have a small backcourt, also not everyone can shoot well (Maggette can’t shoot three’s, our best shooters are our bench players).

So yeah, our problems are a mix of a lot of things. Players, our coach, our owner, etc.

Formerly known as Five Ten Entertainment.

by Precise Films Productions on Nov 1, 2009 10:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I know it's not COMPLETELY

Nellie’s fault, but how can you not place SOME plame on him?
Even in 07 when we had a roster full of all-star potential players, we didn’t get out of the conference semis.
He has a say in who comes and goes to the Warriors, so why not ask for a more traditional 4? Or why not a better sized 2guard who can play defense?

Everyone doesn’t want to place Nellie on the hotseat cause’ he got us out of decade plus long hiatus. But seriously, we’re never going to win a championship with Nellie as our head coach, I know you know that much.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 3:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

there’s a strong argument the shortcomings you listed aren’t because of Don Nelson. We don’t play good defense because we don’t have good defensive players

but the buck stops here means nellie is responsible for building this team to his wants. If it is no good he’s the one who should have fixed it. He seems to focus more on making things difficult so he can be praised as an underdog instead of making things easier.

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 28, 2009 3:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

EXACTLY

Thanks Skep. I was never trying to deduce that Nellie is a Horrible coach or decision maker, he’s just not a great one. SURE he’s about to be the most winningest coach in NBA history, but at what cost? You want to know why Chris and Latrell and now JAX wanted out? Because they see that we’ll never be anything but flash. The owners, management and YES nellie don’t seem to think that building a championship calibur team is worthwhile.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 3:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

(Reply button helps)

Generally you’re not a “championship caliber team” until you acquire a superstar. We have yet to acquire said player. You’re seriously overvaluing the ‘07 team if you think it was full of all-star potential players. Baron when he’s playing well (which he did in ‘07 when he came back from injury after the trades) is at that level. Nobody else on the team is. Pietrus? No. Barnes? No. Biedrins? No. Jack? No. Harrington? No. JRich? Early JRich was close – ’07 JRich was not as good as he was before injuries. Monta? Good, still a long way from All-star caliber, though. Getting us as far as he did was a good accomplishment – we beat the best team in the regular season in the playoffs soundly. That’s a pretty good coaching job in my book. We had no chance against the Jazz, they were simply too big for us. Bad matchup, and we simply weren’t good enough to beat a team that was a bad matchup for us.

Where exactly do you propose getting a normal sized 2 that can play D, that’s all around game is good enough to replace Ellis? Ellis is a good player, it’s not like you can just go out there and improve on him (especially with the whole moped incident) easily.

Nellis has a say in personnel decisions, sure, but he’s not the ultimate decision maker there. Even if he is…you guys want a more traditional 4/lineup in general? Hmm…so since ‘07 we’ve added Randolph, Wright, and Turiaf so we can play a more traditional lineup…just sucks that with Wright out we have to go back to smaller lineups more often. I’m just not really seeing where you’re coming from on this.

I also do not think we’ll win a championship under Nellie, but that’s because he’s old and won’t coach much longer. As I said, superstars win championships. They’re hard to come by. Maybe Randolph becomes one, probably not but it’s plausible. By that time Nellie will be gone.

This isn’t football where good roster construction alone (and at least a decent QB) is enough to win a championship. It takes finding those players out there only a few teams have – Lebron, Wade, Paul, Howard, Celtics trio, Kobe/Pau, Duncan…it’s hard to find one. Winning a championship is a priority, but realistically what do you want to do to go about winning one? You have to play the hand that’s dealt, and right now, for the Warriors that doesn’t include a championship in the short term.

by Missing Barry on Oct 28, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baron and Jrich

Both played like All-Stars during the second half of that season. The season after that Monta exploded. The sad part is we’ve continually traded away our veterans and stacked up on the draft. It’s not a bad thing, but instead of building on a stacked roster we’ve since let our players go (Baron, Barnes,Pietrus) or traded them away (Harrington, Jrich, Jax?) for a completely new roster feel. Though we’ve had some decent if not great additions to attempt to flll scoring voids and defensive woes (Turiaf,KAZ,Ammo) We continue to downgrade and chop up the chemistry we might have with a solid roster base. I’m not inclining people to bring up the “what if this didn’t occur?” scenarios, but simply to realize that we need a change of not only ownership but a change of coaching as well.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baron (.100 FG%) Davis, JRich, Jack, TMNT, and Biedrins would currently be one of the worst starting fives in the NBA, with nowhere to go but down. Just saying.

That said, I’m totally with you on the call for change of ownership and head coach. This current roster, minus Cohen, Rowell, Nellie, and Jackson, plus a competent owner and a smart, sane coach, could easily be a perennial playoff team, imo.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Oct 28, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No doubt it would, which is why I wouldn’t mind being A BIT more traditional team. I’m starting to grow tired of smallball. Though we’re top 5 in terms of exciting play we’re bottom 5 in terms of being able to win. Like Skep was saying, Nellie dug and is digging his own hole and it’s having an effect on the players and organization.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Smallball falacy

Nellie plays small ball when he doesn’t have bigger guys to win games with. So many people think that bringing in Nellie means a team is going to play small – what it really means is that Nellie is going to use the 12 players on the squad in whatever fashion he can to win games. Since it’s easier to find good “small” players, that’s where Nellie will create match up problems to win games.

If you recall – back in ’90 (yr?) he traded Richmond for Owens in a move the day he made it was to get bigger. He now calls that a mistake, but at the time it seemed the right thing to do – get bigger.

Nellie has rarely ever had a big guy in his prime or even on the upswing. Always gets them on the downside of their career – so he manages with what he’s got.

He’s also always given a rebuilding project – which unless one drafts a superstar, is never an easy thing to do.

There is NO better X and O’s coach in the league than Nellie, and that includes Phil Jackson.

BTW…from the ‘07 team, the W’s let go of Barnes because he was uncoachable for most of the season – constantly resorting to ill advised thuggery – probably dealing with the loss of his mother. Pietrus was let go because the salaries being offered elsewhere were higher than his basketball IQ was worth. He made a lot of bad basketball plays.

Still, I’d rather have him playing the 3 right now than Jackson. Hindsight does suck on that one.

I think when this season is completed, this team will be a lot closer to the ‘07 than people think. It won’t be as nasty as that team was – but it will be as big a force to deal with and be a team that can beat any other team on any given night.

by joegiant on Oct 28, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn’t watch the warriors back then, since I’m only 19 and no I’m not a bandwagoner. lol But yeah if I can recall correctley he did have CWebb and you can’t tell me he wasn’t in the upswing. I don’t know the details of what happened that led him going to (I forgot where Wasington or Sac?) but they could’ve built around him, I know that much.

And I don’t disagree with you, Nellie IS the best X’s and O’s coach maybe in the history of professional basketball, but it’s either he’s a horrible defensive coach or he just doesn’t care about defense.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The C-Webb thing was almost unforgivable. That whole scenario was just a sign of things to come for the Warriors. Not only did we trade C-Webb after a great rookie season because he and Nellie weren’t meshing, but then we fired Nellie as well. Just awful. There’s nothing to say in defense of that.

Our problem with the We Believe team, though, was we just had a very small window between the guys ages and contract situations to contend with them. It’s pretty obvious (at least to me) now that we made the right call not attaching ourselves to Baron. JRich was a bad contract we got out of. Harrington just wasn’t that good, nor were Pietrus and Barnes. Really, since ‘07, I think we’ve done a fantastic job of building a new nucleus to build around that’s more traditional….EXCEPT…3 things that are the difference between us being extremely young/talented/exciting and promising and us being in a shitty situation. Extending Jack. Signing Maggette. Moped Ellis. Those were really bad and completely changed our situation. The moped accident we can move past. If we can somehow get out of the Jack/Maggette deals in the next year or so, we’ll be looking pretty good again.

As for a change in ownership – no disagreements here. I legitimately think Cohan is the worst owner in American professional sports, as well as being a scummy person in general. I would love to move past him. Nellie…well, I don’t know that Nellie’s a great fit for what we’re doing, I wouldn’t mind a new coach, per se, I just do think in general he’s a very good coach and doesn’t deserve the blame for a lot of the points you brought up. If you’re going to blame Nellie, blame him for Webber. I know I still do.

by Missing Barry on Oct 28, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Our problem with the We Believe team, though, was we just had a very small window between the guys ages and contract situations to contend with them. It’s pretty obvious (at least to me) now that we made the right call not attaching ourselves to Baron. JRich was a bad contract we got out of. Harrington just wasn’t that good, nor were Pietrus and Barnes. Really, since ‘07, I think we’ve done a fantastic job of building a new nucleus to build around that’s more traditional….EXCEPT…3 things that are the difference between us being extremely young/talented/exciting and promising and us being in a crappy situation. Extending Jack. Signing Maggette. Moped Ellis. Those were really bad and completely changed our situation. The moped accident we can move past. If we can somehow get out of the Jack/Maggette deals in the next year or so, we’ll be looking pretty good again.

by Missing Barry on Oct 28, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he’s sort of doing the same thing with Jax. I was mad at Jackson for a while at first, until I realized that he is understandably mad at his situation. Since Baron’s been gone we haven’t had a decent pg, leaving Jax to have to run point-foward, which he isn’t at all great at. Nellie plays him 40 min a night EVERY night, win or lose. I don’t think Nellie even realizes that he’s wearing out Jax for no real reason. We aren’t going to win a championship much less become a contender whilst Jackson is here and he’s over the hill in terms of getting better. I think Nellie is one of the best in the game coaching players who have established themselves in his system and are vets PRIOR to coming on the team. The only reason KAZ, AMMO and the rookies ever got a chance to prove themselves is because of injuries and rotation changes (due to trades and or releases).

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eh, Nellie might not play young guys who could use the PT for development, I’ll give you that. It seems to me (especially based on some research that’s been done on the topic on this site) that, in general, Nellie plays the best players, whether they’re young or old. If a young guy is ready to contribute, Nellie plays him. If he isn’t, Nellie doesn’t. Sometimes this will lead to chances to develop a guy, but Nellie doesn’t play him since he isn’t initially ready, I’ll give you that, but most of the time he doesn’t play young guys because they just aren’t that good.

by Missing Barry on Oct 28, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baron (.100 FG%) Davis, JRich, Jack, TMNT, and Biedrins would currently be one of the worst starting fives in the NBA

You don’t know how they would be playin if they were still together, they’d have a lot of experience together by now and a very refined game. I think even at their advanced age they’d win more games than Rookie, Moped,Jax,Rudolf, and Biedrins? I guess that depends on how Jax and Dris play against themselves in the different line ups but I kinda think Boom and JRich would inspire them more than Roookie and Moped?

by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 29, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baron can’t even inspire himself much less another person…

by Missing Barry on Oct 29, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think even at their advanced age they’d win more games than Rookie, Moped,Jax,Rudolf, and Biedrins

And I think you’re wrong, mostly because you’re underestimating (a) how much Baron’s play has slipped, and (b) what a horrible excuse for a basketball player TMNT is. One game sample size, but Harrington played 29 minutes last night, hit 5 of 14 shots, and collected zero rebounds and zero assists. Overall, a tidy -23. I’d say Rookie+Rudolf is already better than Baron+TMNT, and they’ve barely scratched the surface of their potential. That leaves Monta and JRich: slight advantage Monta or at worst a push.

It’s kind of interesting to me that going by recent trends, Monta+Curry, despite being “small,” is actually a better rebounding backcourt tandem than Baron+JRich. Baron’s drop-off as a rebounder (from 4.7 per 36 the year before last to 3.7 last year) may actually be more alarming than his drop-off as a shooter. (Fortunately for him, his playmaking skills still seem to be pretty solid).

More importantly: one of those two tandems plays for the Warriors and the other doesn’t. To quote Ray Davies: it is time for you to stop all of your sobbing…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Oct 29, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think if it weren’t for BD’s injuries he’d still be a top 5 pg, sadly it’s been the setback of his entire illustrious career. He looks mean and ready for a bouce back this year though. He actually looks better physically than he ever was with us and he was DAMN good with us.
Jrich is was and always will be a bad rebounder and defender. You can’t deny his stroke or athleticism though.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

With Baron it’s more than just injuries. It’s attitude. It’s consistent (or lack thereof) effort. It’s decision making. It’s the fact that more times than not he shows up out of shape. I haven’t seen him yet this year, but I have my doubts he’s in better shape than he was the only year I’ve ever seen him try (his contract year). DAMN good with us…well, it depends on when you’re talking about. He was absolutely awful when Monty was here. He was very, very good in his contract year.

JRich once was a very good rebounder for his position. That was pre-injury JRich – the one that was as athletic as you remember. Post-injury JRich has never recovered to the player he once was. He’s not even close to the athlete he once was…

by Missing Barry on Oct 29, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

JRich used to be a very good rebounder and seems to have slipped to mediocre. I’m not sure I’d call him particularly athletic anymore, if his athleticism doesn’t translate to good rebounding, ballhandling, passing, or defense. He is a very good outside shooter, but that’s increasingly all he is.

BD was “damn good” with us about half the time, max. The other half he was either injured, tired, or generally unmotivated. He may “look better physically” now, but he’s at an age where many players start to decline; he showed serious signs of decline last season; and very early returns for this season (.238 FG%, 3.3 reb per 36 in two games) suggest that the worrisome trends may be continuing.

NB — I exaggerated the drop-off in his rebounding last season (looked at per game rather than per 36). It was 4.3 reb/36 to 3.8, not 4.7 to 3.7. So he didn’t far that fall in this area as I thought, but he ended up just as mediocre.

Fake edit: what Missing Barry said.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Oct 29, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also

According to the rate at which the poll is pacing, it seems we fans don’t think winning a championship is that important. Weird..but at the same time not surprising. :T

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 3:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

That's because you asked a compound question, which is a type of loaded question

You can’t answer yes to one question without answering yes to the other. People might be answering no because of Nellie’s small ball question, but not because of the contender question.

by IQofaWarrior on Oct 28, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Also: Is there a breath in the word “contender”? Personally, I think I can say it without taking a breath.

And with whom is smallball falling out of favor? Me? Nellie? Obama?

The poll question is so silly the only logical answer is the one the pollster transparently doesn’t want you to give.

So, no.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Oct 28, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's because you asked a compound question, which is a type of loaded question

haha, a strawman on a pole?

by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 28, 2009 3:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

lol

I wasn’t sure how to split the question up the right way. If you look at it though the question does make sense in that we’ll NEVER win a championship with Nellie at the helm.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 3:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

There

since it’s such an extreme task to deduce that the last question MADE SENSE, I simplified it to the point where its just a yes or no answer.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 4:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, now I’m uncomfortable with your usage of “pertain.”

Can you simplify it again to “Does Nellie suck”? ;-)

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Oct 28, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haha

I wouldn’t say he sucks, he’s just not a championship calibur coach. I guess people like smallball too much to give it up.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn’t say he sucks, he’s just not a championship calibur coach

I think that’s about it. I mean, there are still glimmers of championship-caliber coaching in that complex brain, but it this point it’s way too mixed up with egomania, mind games, crankiness, half-remembered philosophy, irrational personal attachments and vendettas, and booze to be anything like a recipe for success.

If he stepped down tomorrow and let Smart take the reins I would do jigs around the house.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Oct 28, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like Smart 100%, since he’s been behind Nellie he’s learned how to use smallball, but is a defensive minded coach at the same time. We also need to trade SOMEBODY out of our backcourt for a solid tradtionally sized 2. I have no idea who, but we just need to.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

at this point it’s way too mixed up with egomania, mind games, crankiness, half-remembered philosophy, irrational personal attachments and vendettas, and booze to be anything like a recipe for success.

That hasn’t stopped me yet.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 29, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is one of my main points of disagreement. I don’t think Nellie has a great attachment to small ball. Sure he might be more into it then others, but if you gave him the personnel to run more traditional lineups out there, I don’t think we’d see Maggette at 4…

by Missing Barry on Oct 28, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

In fact, we WEREN'T going to see Maggette at the 4

until Wright’s shoulder happened again.

by IQofaWarrior on Oct 28, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Which is why we should really have stacked the frontcourt with more reliable and healthy players instead of resigning guards and fowards and picking up Maggs. Only now does management their mistake in extending and renewing contracts on guards and not waiting to see if they could improve the frontcourt depth.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

management see*

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

We are adding big men. Turiaf, Wright, Randolph…we even added Moore, though the problem there is he isn’t any good. We didn’t have the cap space to find a useful big man in FA – we could have traded for one, I guess, but who knows what trades were available….

by Missing Barry on Oct 28, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

We’ll see how well we do tonight. Im just disappointed that we’re going to be stuck in this never ending circle of trades and releases while continuing to stay young and not develop our young players.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 28, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Basically I think the waiting phase goes on until we somehow land a superstar. Let’s hope it’s Randolph. That’s just the NBA – being an average team is a crappy cycle, and being bad sucks too unless the timing works out well (like Cleveland getting the #1 pick for Lebron, and the exact opposite of everything that’s ever happened to the Warriors)…

It does suck, but that’s the life of a Warriors fan, man.

by Missing Barry on Oct 28, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

We have...

…that personnel, at least if he really wanted to use it. We have Biedrins, Turiaf, Randolph, and Moore right now. Randolph is banged up but was able to play and didn’t look half bad. Moore never got off the pine. Now, you could argue that Maggette is a better player than Moore, and you’d be right- except in that the outcome attempting to pass him off as a power forward is known. He tried this last year, and it failed, epically. If Maggette shooting 3-15 or whatever the hell it was (while getting destroyed on defense by bigger players) isn’t enough even to attempt something different, I think he readily invites this criticism, and more.

by Zack Vank on Oct 28, 2009 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

We play smallball because the majority of our players that deserve NBA PT are small.

From my first comment to this post. Definitely applies here. If Wright were healthy, he’d deserve PT (though I think there’s a good case to be made Nelson should have played healthy Wright more than he did). Randolph obviously needs to play, but we’re taking it easy on him ’cause of his back – understandable. We played Biedrins/Turiaf as much as possible given their foul rates…

Basically, it comes down to Mikki Moore. As I said, we have players that are actually NBA caliber players on our roster, and then we have Mikki Moore. He’s on the bench for a reason – he’s not good enough to get minutes in the NBA. I’m fine with him as 12th man, or whatever, but the truth is he just isn’t very good. Maggette at PF (which is a not good situation) > Mikki Moore anywhere but the bench. The plan going into the year wasn’t to use Maggette at PF – injuries forced that on us.

by Missing Barry on Oct 29, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I still...

…fundamentally disagree. Maggette at power forward is a guaranteed fail. What might happen plugging in Moore for those minutes at that position could be a disaster, or it might click and we could skate by. If Nelson isn’t confident in Moore ever seeing the court, then he and Larry Riley have a gap to fill. Go to the D-league, or peruse the free agent wires. Get somebody who actually has some potential to be a low risk stop-gap, instead of pushing forward with what’s been undeniably proven to fail.

by Zack Vank on Oct 29, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

then he and Larry Riley have a gap to fill. Go to the D-league, or peruse the free agent wires

I can agree with that. Knowing Wright’s out and Moore just doesn’t cut it, they should be looking for a short term solution – I have no idea if any good option is out there or not.

The redeeming quality of Maggette at PF (which again, is obviously a bad thing) is the mismatch it gives us on offense. Overall it’s bad, but there are at least good aspects of it that make it less bad than I think you’re making it out to be…

by Missing Barry on Oct 30, 2009 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This team hadn't one a playoff game in years.

Then Nellie comes and they make it to the second round.

Seems to me the worst you can say about Nellie was that he hasn’t done enough to progress this team, but he did cause the team to crumble because it was never good in the first place.

by Jeremy Belvins on Oct 28, 2009 7:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

*did NOT cause the team to crumble

I need to proofread.

by Jeremy Belvins on Oct 28, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

winningest coach

after coaching for over 30 years, I’d kind of think the law of averages would bring him to the point where he would have alot of games in his win column — 1309. Now add in the 1007 losses and you’ve got a .565 record. Not stellar. And you’d kind of think after all those years he’d have at least ONE championship under his belt. Beyond that, I don’t think he’s a coach that is popular with the players. He’s old, set in his ways, and has a history of blowups and bad blood with players. I don’t think anyone is dying to have Nellie as their coach – more the opposite.

by centerre on Oct 28, 2009 8:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

No

This team doesn’t lack talent, but is very flawed. We have no post players, we have mostly below average defenders and rebounders. I don’t think another coach can get more out of them.

as for small ball etc, its this squads only route of action. If Nellie had Tim Duncan and Garnett and decided to only play one at a time and go with maggette at PF for 30 mins a game, then i’d say he was the problem. But that’s not the case

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 9:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The only reason we’re stuck in this predicament is because Nellie either wasn’t man enough to ask for better players (which honestly, we all know he could have) or he didn’t want to improve the team, I think he likes being the Underdog all the time. The man is CATERED to by the owners, so who’s fault is it that we haven’t made any REAL moves to improve our team? Nellie’s, hands down. He doesn’t even attempt to use that intellectual brain of his in the 3rd quarter, he should have totally taken Maggs out, but did he? Nope, cause’ he really doesn’t care anymore. He’s still gonna get paid at the end of the day.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

false

He likes specific players. So not every big is gonna fit. We drafted 2 PF’s who are ideal fits. 1 is very young and raw, the other has poor luck with injuries. I can’t blame him on playing time cause they make A LOT of mistakes. But for ex. he loved Harrington and thought he could make him a star, but Harrington wouldn’t listen (lacked mentality)

BTW for mags, he was putting forth alot of effort. 9 rebounds in 24 minutes is GREAT rate, especially considering biedrins and turiaf were rebounding poorly. He was shooting poorly, but I can’t blame Nellie for leaving him out there, he has ability to get out of funk. Maggette is generally very efficient scorer, so there is reason to believe even though he was 1 or 6 or whatever, he’d improve. Sometimes 3 for 14 happens, it’s not like he’s someone with a largw history of consistant 15-20% shooting nights

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

also...

asking for better players means nothing. The team has to be able to get them. Amare didn’t want to come. Most players don’t want to come because of horrible management

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How is Maggs supposed to get out of a funk by shooting jumpshots? Even a person who doesn’t know jack about basketball could see that Maggs wasn’t going toget out of it. He really should have put Morrow in instead, stop wiping Nellie’s ass and just realize that he’s not a great coach at times.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

hindsight is 20/20

he’s our best scorer… most teams give there best scorer a longer leash….

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'm not defending his performance....

BUT he had a great preseason, and its game one. If he had had 3 or 4 straight 3 for 14 type nights, and he starts 1 for 5 or something i saw yank him, but that wasnt case…

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pre-season doesn’t count in the win column. It’s a proving ground for rookies and roleplayers and Maggs is neither. The beginning of the season is usually the most important part of the season it sets up how you go into the middle of the season and how good you’re able to close out the season. If you get most of your wins during the start and middle of the season you won’t have to wear out in the end pushing for wins. There is no justification for never taking out Maggs during the 3rd and attempting to let someone else get into a hot streak. He was clearly never going to get out of it.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

how was it clear?!

how many times have good scorers started terrible and then heated up. It was wrong move, but at time i woulda done similar. He was compiling alot of rebounds, playing better defense (than he normally does) and even got some assists….

you make it sound like he was 0-10 contributing NOTHING else. He led our team in rebounds in only 24 minutes

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

As to your contributions point, Nellie could’ve easily put Morrow or KAZ in at the 3 and kept Maggs as a rebounder at the 4. He didn’t seem to care that Maggs was jacking up shot after shot, not looking to pass and disrupted the team’s offense. He also did a HORRIBLE job defending Scola. So your arguement is a failed attempt at saying keeping Maggette in just because he’s our “best scorer”. I don’t see where that applies in that Monta was doing a much more efficient job with 26 points.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

monta was efficient last night, but maggette has a 10 year history of being very efficient, getting to the line. I’m sure nellie told him to drive more, and when he didn’t he got yanked, but he’s a vet… sometimes you let him work thru it

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He was clearly never going to get out of it.

I think it’s a lot less clear than you’re making it. Yeah, now that we know the end stats we can see he shot poorly. NBA players do often turn it around, and considering Maggs was getting pretty good looks, there’s no reason to think at the time he wouldn’t start making them. As far as I’m aware, there’s no evidence “hot” or “cold” streaks are anything more than expected random variation – so just because someone is doing poorly (assuming the quality of the shot is normal, which in this case was definitely true) doesn’t mean he’s more likely to do poorly on his next shot than he would normally be…

by Missing Barry on Oct 29, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unless of course the player isn’t a very good jump shooter. Maggette clearly has lost his shooting touch since his days as a Clip and even then he only shot decent from range. It was inexcusable for Nellie to continue to let Maggs take shot after shot which were WIDE open and he still wasn’t hitting it. He should have told him to let someone else initiate the offense instead of pulling up without working out the plays. We have 2 or 3 other decent if not good options to replace Maggs on an off night. Morrow didn’t even get much burn despite Maggs sub-par performance. They had BATTIER guarding Morrow while he was on the floor, Morrow drawing attention would have given Maggs open drives to the hole. But obviously Nellie didn’t see that with his beer goggles on.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would like to see a breakdown of Maggette’s shooting percentages at various spots on the court. I do think he shoots a respectable % (when he’s open like he was last night) from ~18 feet, but I could be wrong as I do not have the stats to back that up. Again, what you’re not acknowledging is it’s only a bad decision now that we know he missed them – but at the time, nobody knew that. His past shots are independent of his future shots – so missing in the past didn’t make him more likely to miss in the future. If it’s normally a good shot for him, it was a good shot to take last night. Sometimes you just get unlucky and it doesn’t go in. That doesn’t make it a bad decision.

Also, not sure why Morrow would have given Maggette open drives? Maggette was being guarded by their 4, who played off him since their 4’s can’t really guard Maggette, so they made the decision to let him shoot. How does Morrow change any of that?

by Missing Barry on Oct 29, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it was clear after he went 3 of 10 and continued to take jumpers. Like I said before he’s not a jump shooter and he can’t create his own shot outside of driving to the paint. It’s the equivalent of Beidrins attempting to get out of a slump by taking face up jumpers out at 10 to12 feet when his post game isn’t rolling. Obviously we would’ve lost if you were coach & by a lot.

Do me and everyone else a favor and never become a coach on any level.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 12:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

No need for the personal insult

But I have actually coached on high school level and been successful at it. You obviously hate nellie and are pulling at straws to add to it. Leaving maggette out was a mistake but a justifiable one. Maggette is a proven efficient scorer, who was rebounding well. Nellie let him work thru it, it backfired. You can’t just pull everyone every time they get in a little slump.

I doubt you saw this if it was monta, i think its just a bias against Maggette. I Don’t particularly like Corey and I have his contract, but I’m not bias enough to not realize his strengths and weaknesses

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh and clealry he pulled him early

MAggette will normally get 30-33 minutes, but he only got 24. Especially considering Randolph was hurt, being as he’s our best bet at makeshift PF, he should have played more minutes (32-36) but he didn’t cause he was off….

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You don’t let a player work it out during the 3rd quarter when we’re ALREADY in a bad shooting slump as a team. He shouldn’t be our #1 option and Nellie played him like he was.

I actually like Maggette when he sticks to his strengths. He’s just not a shooter and Nellie attempted to let him pretend to be one and at the worst point of the game. The only quarter we lost was the 3rd in which Maggette got most of his 24 min.

If Monta was shooting 3-10 it would be different because Monta CAN actually shoot. Therefore it is actually justifiable if Monta were in Maggs position, but I guess I can’t get you to see that Maggs in the 3rd was a complete mental lapse by Nellie.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nobody has acknowledged that Maggette’s jump shots were all open shots yet. Because he was playing 4, the guy guarding him wasn’t capable of guarding him and let him shoot jumpers. Those were good shots. Maggette doesn’t need to “work out of it” like there’s a long process involved. He was getting good looks, which means, on average, he was going to make a good % of the shots he was taking. It was just unfortunate that now, looking back on it, we can see it was an unlucky day…

by Missing Barry on Oct 29, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's a career 57.7% TS% shooter

Thats pretty damn efficient. For comparison Lebron is 56.6% and Kobe is 55.8%. Would you pull these guys in a slump???

He’s nowhere near there level,but when it comes to efficiency of scoring, he is….. so he started poorly, most coaches would let him continue, especially considering he was rebounding better than EVERY player on the dubs

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How dynamic is his ability to score though? Both of those players PASS as well as rebound, they can SHOOT out to the 3 point line and get that STAR treatment when driving to the hoop. So it’s not really a comparison.

- iBall, do you?

by iBallGSW on Oct 29, 2009 12:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

agreed, but every point is created equal. sure Kobe and Lebron make you go ooooh and ahhh, but corey’s free throws are worth same on the scoreboard.

I’m just saying he has a long history of being efficient, and had a poor start, but considering his pre-season form, its fair to suggest he could get himself out of it quickly.

had he played multiple bad games back to back, then his leash becomes shorter. Tonight for ex if he starts 0-5 you pull him faster

by tafkasam on Oct 29, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs