DG --> F/C

by onlxn on Nov 11, 2009 11:33 AM PST

A thought prompted by one of DFiB's and my patented ramble-offs.

So things got pretty dire pretty quickly up front. Biedrins is out for at least two weeks, according to the latest reports... Ronny could conceivably come back as early as tonight, but even if he does, we've only got three big men, one of whom is close to useless. We need to do something about this. It'd be great if we could wring a big out of whatever deal gets Jack off our hands, but it's not clear when that deal will happen... it might not happen till December or February, and we need help now.

A complicating factor is that we don't have many roster spots available. Almost every spot is filled by either a rotation guy, (Biedrins, Ronny, AR, Wright, 'Buike, Maggette, Morrow, Jack, Monta, Curry), a useful expiring contract (Law, Speedy) or a guy who can't yet be traded (CJ, Mikki). But there is one spot left to play with.

Devean George is currently hurt, and even healthy, would give us nothing on the court. He's one of the worst offensive players who still has a job in the NBA, his fading lateral quickness has made him a non-asset on defense, and he rebounds horribly for his size. We wouldn't get any value from playing him. I don't think we'd get any value from packaging him into a bigger trade, either... his $1.6M expiring contract is only our third-biggest, and you don't see teams taking on bunches of little expirings in trades, due to roster constraints. We could just let his deal expire, but I'm not sure what the point would be... even if we managed to dump Jack for a '10 expiring, we'd only be a wee bit under the cap, essentially in the same MLE territory we'd be in otherwise.

Simply put, Devean George isn't really worth anything to us. We should turn his roster spot into a big body we could use right now. There are three way to do this:

1) We could simply drop George and pick up the best available big we can find. He doesn't have to be great. Even if he's worse than Mikki Moore, he'd still help us right now... better that some big scrub waste fouls on Shaq than Maggette or somebody. We're starting to face some bigger teams. We're not going to last long without a fourth big body we can use.

2) We could trade George to a team looking to save a tiny bit of dough, for a big whose contract is a year longer. Possibilities on that front: Alexis Ajinca of the Bobcats, James Johnson of the Bulls, Hamed Haddadi of the Grizzlies. All three guys have failed to make their teams' rotations thus far; all three play for franchises that might want to shed '10-'11 payroll for one reason or another; all three have some potential; most critically, all three are not Devean George. It's more than possible that these teams wouldn't want to punt on these guys' potential so quickly (although I'd bet Haddadi's available, even with Thabeet's injury)... we might get hung up on if we offered these trades. That doesn't mean it's not worth making the calls.

3) We trade George for a big who also expires this year, sending money along to make it worth the other team's while. Essentially, we use George to buy a player, in much the same way the Raptors used George to buy Marco from us. Devean and cash to the Heat for Jamal Magloire? Devean and cash to the Nets for Sean Williams? Devean and cash to the Blazers for Juwan Howard? Devean and cash to the Raptors for... dare I say it... Patrick O'Bryant?

I'm not gonna lie. None of these options are pretty. But in my mind, they're a lot prettier than playing Cleveland, Boston, Portland, Dallas and San Antonio in eight nights with two credible big men and Mikki Moore, which is exactly what we have to do starting Tuesday. That stretch is gonna be ugly either way, but it's going to be soul-killingly horrible unless we add another big body. Dumping Devean George seems like the best way to add that big body.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Comments

Interesting

Do what the Raptors did to us? I like it. Marco had done well for them.

Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"

by dubzfan on Nov 11, 2009 11:54 AM PST reply actions

i would trade George for Haddadi in a second

BTW rec’d

30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ

by Lat We N Trash on Nov 11, 2009 12:06 PM PST reply actions

This is something that should have been done...

as soon as Wright got injured. And then, as soon as Turiaf got injured. And then, as soon as Biedrins got injured. Has Riley been too busy with this Jackson fiasco to look at our ravaged front court and not realize that another body is needed?

by ivanbe on Nov 11, 2009 12:38 PM PST reply actions

Glad I could help

Devean and cash to the Raptors for… dare I say it… Patrick O’Bryant?

MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!

Given that Biedrins is now out for 2+ weeks, they DEFINITELY need to do something… especially given that none of our remaining bigs has shown any propensity to not foul people so he can stay on the floor. If we can turn Devan George into somebody marginally useful, that’s a good thing. The alternative is: “start tanking so early that nobody notices and just thinks the team is terrible.” But I hope Nellie and the players have too much pride for that.

Are the Nets actually that down on Sean Williams?

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 11, 2009 12:54 PM PST reply actions

Are the Nets actually that down on Sean Williams?

Good question. Williams seems exactly the type of stopgap we need if we don’t want to start throwing games: athletic big man who can run the floor, grab a few boards, defend the rim, give up his body, and pick up his six fouls, while giving Randolph a little room to maneuver. Yeah, he seems like a headcase and an offensive zero, but he’s still a better option than, for example, a POB Redux.

Nets are pretty stocked with tall dudes (Lopez, Yi, Boone, Najera); more importantly, they’ve already declined the fourth year option on Williams, so clearly he means nothing to them beyond his $1.6M expiring contract (interestingly, exactly what George has). Perhaps we can leverage their good will from the Marcus Williams trade to get them to bite on a meaningless “good faith” George/Williams swap, along the lines of the deal that sent Belinelli to the Raps?

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 11, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions

It's an interesting idea

The problem is that the Nets are already a SF wasteland, with Bobby Simmons, Jarvis Hayes, and Trenton Hassell already on the books. PF/C is where they have depth issues, not the swingman spots.

That said, stranger things have happened (like the Warriors giving up a young talent on a rookie deal for a scrub, for example)

by dprodigy19 on Nov 11, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions

PF/C is where they have depth issues, not the swingman spots.

It’s true, and yet he’s only logged 31 minutes in their first 7 games. My sense is that they’d be down to cut bait on him. Worth asking, if nothing else.

by onlxn on Nov 11, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions

Also, the Nets wouldn’t actually want George… no one would. We’d need to put in enough money to make it worth their while. But I think that might be doable.

by onlxn on Nov 11, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions

With money, it'd definately be possible

by dprodigy19 on Nov 11, 2009 10:32 PM PST up reply actions

Sounds plausible

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 11, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions

Even if he’s worse than Mikki Moore, he’d still help us right now

uh, not likely

too early to throw in the towell folks? just asking, just asking …

by hardcore on Nov 11, 2009 9:33 PM PST reply actions

This seems like as a good a place for a rant as any.

By all accounts, Mikki Moore is a swell guy. I bet I would enjoy having a beer with him. I bet I would enjoy playing Mario Kart with him. I bet I would enjoy laughing with him as our friend tries to convince us to accompany him to a water park. I wish Mikki Moore all the best in the world.

But man alive, Mikki Moore is bad at basketball.

Foylesque hands. An inability to rebound that is almost impressive. No offensive technique. No ability to alter shots. No ability to provide help defense. No real ability to control players in the post. What… the… hell.

We have had uncommonly bad luck with the health of our bigs, but still. It’s an outrage that this guy is logging significant minutes for us. We need to do something about this, STAT.

by onlxn on Nov 12, 2009 12:11 AM PST reply actions

Can’t argue with any of that…

by Missing Barry on Nov 12, 2009 10:40 AM PST up reply actions

You forgot to add the fact that he doesn’t try to challange any shots.

In fact, you could have made a shorter post by lising the things that Moore does well: Talks on defense and initially gets in between his man and the hoop, you know, before he doesn’t try and stop him from putting the ball in said hoop.

I haven’t seen this kind of well-rounded suckiness since THUD.

I’d take Adonal Foyle and a pinky-swear that he’d never take a contested shot over what I’ve seen from Moore.

I give pressure the reach-around.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Nov 12, 2009 11:52 AM PST up reply actions

I thought of throwing Adonal into the possible trade targets, actually. I agree — I’d rather have Adonal. If you’re going to insist on having a skill-free 34-year-old, take the humanitarian poet who might still block the occasional shot.

by onlxn on Nov 12, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions

Foylesque hands? ouch. Is that why it takes him so long to go up after he “catches” the ball. I’ve seen a handful of times where he gets the ball wide open underneath, doesn’t do anything, defenders finally rotate to him and he ends up taking a fade-away 5 footer.

Btw, think the only reason George hasn’t been moved is that his contract can be used to help make deals work. Like Jackson for Josh Howard doesn’t work, but Jackson + Devean for Howard does.

by homer simpson on Nov 12, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions

Probably true. But Jackson & Law for Howard also works… Jackson & CJ will work when CJ becomes tradeable in a month, ditto Mikki (although we should probably keep him around, bad as he is). It’s a rare package trade that requires George’s contract as opposed to someone else’s. Given the desperate straits we’re in, I think it’s worth trading him now.

by onlxn on Nov 12, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions

Still not a whisper about trading for size. Oy gevalt. Well, here’s another argument for adding a big body, not that anyone outside the organization is really arguing against it at this point.

Thus far, we are getting our shots blocked more often than all but two other teams in the league. This is despite the fact that we’ve only played two teams with any real affinity for the block, in the Clippers and Pacers. Our seven opponents have recorded 5.1 blocks per game against everyone else, right at the league average… they’ve blocked us seven times per game. No NBA team in this decade has gotten blocked that often over the course of a full season. In the last five seasons, only one team, last year’s Bobcats, has gotten blocked as often as six times a game.

Now, on one level, no big deal, right? You’re going to miss dozens of shots per game, no matter who you are, and if a couple extra misses are due to blocks, so be it. Besides, a smaller team is gonna get blocked more often. It’s not the end of the world.

On the other hand, this is a new trend for us. Last year we played tons of smallball… we got blocked 5.1 times a game, just above the league average. ‘07-’08, same thing… 5.1 times a game, just above league average. ‘06-’07? 5.0, just above league average. We’ve used plenty of small lineups since Nellie came back around, and those small lineups have never gotten stuffed like this. Size is not the main issue. So what’s going on?

Here’s the thing: we’re not only playing small lineups. We’re also practicing against small lineups. With only two bigs dressing, your second unit also has to play smallball by definition. Our starting lineup against Indy was Monta/Morrow/’Buike/Jack/Moore… the fivesome they scrimmaged against beforehand was Curry/CJ/Law/Maggette/Randolph. In preparing for the Pacers, a big team, our starting lineup faced three point guards, a small forward and a power forward.

That teaches you misleading things. If you’re Stephen Curry, practice is drilling into you that you only have to account for one shot-blocker when you drive to the hoop. If you’re Anthony Randolph, practice is drilling into you that there’s only going to be one other big guy on the court, and he doesn’t have a prayer of blocking your shot. And if you’re Stephen Jackson or Corey Maggette, practice is drilling into you that the power forward who’ll cover you is only as big as Corey Maggette or Stephen Jackson.

The result? Stephen Curry is getting blocked 8% of the time, more often than Brandon Jennings (who defenses are focusing on) and as often as Tyreke Evans (who drives a lot more than Curry does). Anthony Randolph, despite his length and quickness, is getting blocked 10% of the time, more than he did in his error-prone rookie season. Stephen Jackson is getting 8% of his shots blocked, up from 6% last year. And Corey Maggette, who got blocked 7% of the time last year, is getting blocked an absurd 13% of the time so far this year… one of every eight shots he takes is stuffed back in his face.

This is a problem. This is a big problem. Even if you use an unconventional lineup, you have to be able to scrimmage against a conventional lineup… you have to let your players face a reasonable simulation of an NBA team. Curry/CJ/Law/Maggette/Randolph is not a reasonable simulation of an NBA team. The Pacers were not likely to field a starting lineup of Danny Granger, Dahntay Jones, T.J. Ford, Earl Watson and Luther Head.

Yes, injuries are the big issue here. But for the love of God, turn Devean George into a big body our starters can at least scrimmage against. We’re learning bad habits, and it’s only going to get worse from here.

by onlxn on Nov 13, 2009 11:26 AM PST reply actions 1 recs

How many points are we getting in the paint relative to other teams? That’s a pretty important factor I would think – shoot more often inside, get more shots blocked, but generally I imagnie you’ll have a high success rate when it’s all said and done.

Obviously we should be looking into whatever stop gap we can find for the time being, though.

by Missing Barry on Nov 13, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions

According to 82games, we’re actually shooting less from inside than last year. They don’t keep tabs on “points in the paint,” but they define each shot taken in a game as either a jump shot, a “close” shot, a dunk or a tip. In ‘07-’08, Baron’s last year, 63% of the shots we took were jumpers. 67% of the shots we took last year were jumpers… this year, it’s up to 70%. We’re scoring a bit more efficiently than last year, but that’s mainly thanks to Morrow’s insanely hot start. Overall, we’re getting to the hoop a bit less often, we’re getting to the foul line a bit less often, and we’re getting blocked a ton more often. If smallball is paying any dividends on offense, it’s sure hard to see.

by onlxn on Nov 13, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions

Rec'd for good info.

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Nov 13, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions

Even if you use an unconventional lineup, you have to be able to scrimmage against a conventional lineup…

Is there a rule against building a practice only opposition team of big tough guys?

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 13, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions

Somebody needs to dust off the cobwebs from the ROD BENSON MOVEMENT

"We Deserve"

by YaHeard on Nov 13, 2009 6:36 PM PST reply actions

Oy.

So, Brandan Wright got hurt on October 4th, cutting us down to four bigs. At that point, the situation was already dire… it was time to turn George’s roster spot into a big body, by hook or by crook. In the forty-five days since, we have done nothing about this problem, even as injuries reduced us to two bigs, even as circumstances reduced us to seven healthy guys last night (and probably tonight). Make no mistake: we have had horrible, horrible luck on the health front. But we are not completely powerless to change our lot. Most teams don’t put themselves in a position to field seven players on a given night… when things get that dicey, they find a way to bring someone on board.

And it’s not like bigs can’t be had. Even if you just restrict yourself to guys who’re already in the league, there’s plenty of talent available. A partial list of bigs who’ve come available since October 4th:

October 12th: the Sixers release Stromile Swift. Now, Stromile Swift was never very good, and last year he was downright horrible. But he was a genuinely useful player every year of his career until last season, and it’s not like the guy’s ancient… he doesn’t turn 30 till Saturday. Even last year, he put up 12.1 points, 9.0 rebounds and 1.6 blocks per 36 minutes, albeit with a poor shooting percentage and a foul rate that wouldn’t allow him to stay on the court for nearly that long. 15 minutes of Swift per night would do a ton for us right now.

October 20th: the Wolves get Nathan Jawai and cash from the Mavs for a conditional second-round draft pick in 2012. In other words, the Mavs had one player too many… they gave Jawai to the Wolves for free, and even helped pay his salary. Now Jawai’s giving the Wolves 14 minutes of good production of the bench every night, with 14.7 points and 8.6 boards per 36, a league average shooting percentage and a low turnover rate. At 6’ 10", 280, he weighs 35 pounds more than any Warrior. He’s also, by all accounts, a delightful guy, and was an immediate hit amongst players and fans in Minnesota. He’s given them beef, solid play and a bit of sunshine in an otherwise dark season. Again: this guy was almost 100% free.

October 21: the Jazz waive Goran Suton, a 6’ 10" 245-pound second-round pick, a quirky center who’s weak inside but shoots jumpers well and passes well. Does he sound like he’d be up someone’s alley? Also, the Hawks waive Courtney Sims, a 6’ 11" 245 26-year-old. He was the MVP of the D-League last year, averaging 22.8 and 11 and shooting over 60% from the field. Five other bigs were waived this day as well; three more were waived the next day.

November 11: the Wizards waive Paul Davis. Davis is pretty bad, worse than the four previously mentioned players. Why do I mention him? Because at this point, we were already down to only Randolph and Mikki… November 11th was the day that the (also-injured) Pacers smacked our tiny behinds. If you’re Larry Riley or Don Nelson, and on the heels of that game you see that a 25-year-old 6’11" 245-pound center has just been waived, do any synapses fire in your brain? Don’t you think you’d say, “Hey, big guys! I think league rules allow us to GET one of those!”

November 13: the Rockets waive Pops Mensah-Bonsu. The Raptors picked him up on waivers and re-signed him on November 17th, on a day that is also known as “yesterday”. This one drives me nuts.

Pops Mensah-Bonsu played 283 minutes in the league last year, enough to get a sense of his game. In those 283 minutes, he grabbed 113 rebounds. That’s 14.4 rebounds per 36 minutes: more than Randolph, more than Biedrins, more than Dwight Howard. In fact, had he had enough minutes to qualify, Pops Mensah-Bonsu would’ve ranked as the best rebounder in the entire NBA. You can’t extrapolate that that’d hold up by any means, but it’s fair to say that this guy is a great rebounder.

We are the worst-rebounding team in basketball. That is not our only problem by any means, but it is a huge problem, possibly our biggest. Pops Mensah-Bonsu is an elite rebounder. Pops Mensah-Bonsu only makes $825,000 this year. Pops Mensah-Bonsu is healthy enough to play basketball right now, unlike eight of our fifteen players. We still didn’t pick him up.

If we’d wanted Mensah-Bonsu, you know what we needed to do? Make one phone call and send one fax. That’s it. Our record is worse than Toronto’s; we had waiver priority over them. All you need to do is to notify the league of your interest. We failed to do that. The result? A team with thirteen healthy players, including six bigs, added a useful power forward at minimum cost. And a team with seven healthy players, including only two bigs, did not.

As I see it, there are four possible reasons why we did not acquire Pops Mensah-Bonsu:

1) We didn’t think he was good enough for it to be worth it.
2) We thought he had value, but not as much as Devean George.
3) Nellie likes the excuse of playing short-handed and undersized.
4) We were too busy dealing with Jack stuff.

No matter which of the four reasons is true, our front office comes out looking completely incompetent. Pops Mensah-Bonsu is good enough for a bad and injured team to pick up, and he is more valuable than Devean George; if your team’s braintrust thinks otherwise, your team’s braintrust is running a little low on brain. The “Nellie loves excuses” thing… that’s a theory that’s been bandied about for years, and I don’t know that I take it seriously, but I see where the theory comes from. Whether or not it’s true, it’d certainly reflect badly on the team if that were the motivation here. As for the final reason… I’m sure the Jack situation was time-consuming. But a decently-run team would have the attention span and energy to work on other roster issues at the same time. When a guy’s put on waivers, the Commissioner’s office notifies all the other teams, so it’s not like we didn’t know Mensah-Bonsu was available. Even if Riley was on the phone with Charlotte and Cleveland for hours every day, he couldn’t have told a lower-level front office employee to make one phone call and send one fax?

I’m sorry to keep beating this dead horse, but this dead horse shouldn’t be here anymore. This is gross incompetence. The front office is not taking simple steps to give its team a better chance to win right now, and the players and the fanbase deserve better than that.

by onlxn on Nov 18, 2009 10:10 AM PST reply actions

Great post. Good points, good evidence…something could have been done, and it wasn’t.

by Missing Barry on Nov 18, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions

From Yahoo Sports:

• F Brandan Wright(notes) (torn labrum) underwent surgery Oct. 9. His recovery time is estimated to be six months, so there’s a good chance he won’t play at all in 2009-10.

• C Andris Biedrins(notes) (strained groin and abdominal muscles) was told to take two weeks off after experiencing what he thought was back pain in the Nov. 7 loss at Sacramento. He will be re-evaluated after the two-week layoff and could miss additional time. He did not accompany the Warriors on their current five-game road trip.

• C Ronny Turiaf (sprained left knee) missed an eighth consecutive game after suffering the injury Oct. 30. An MRI revealed no damage, but progress has been slow. Warriors coach Don Nelson told reporters Tuesday that he expects Biedrins to return before Turiaf, which means the backup center could miss most of the rest of the month.

This problem is not going to resolve itself anytime soon. For the love of God, Warriors, do something.

by onlxn on Nov 18, 2009 10:41 AM PST reply actions