Haven't we seen this movie before?
by Ronaldinho on Nov 17, 2009 11:17 AM PST
38 comments
Kawakami is reporting that he expects a Monta trade demand this week, and Monta is seeking permission to talk to other teams about a trade. He reports on how Monta feels that his attempts at being a leader are being undercut by Nelson.
Shades of Webber? We have a young, talented player who Nelson rubs the wrong way ... who then gets shipped out. Of course, Nelson can't coach the resulting mess, so he follows suit.
This isn't at all similar to Jackson - Jackson's a role player at best anyway, who was overpaid and getting pretty close to over-the-hill. Losing Jackson costs us nothing. But being forced to trade Monta, especially under unfavorable circumstances?
Furthermore, giving Monta's representatives permission to find a trade is a nightmare. They have a vested interested, and that's trading Monta for a little as possible, so his next team has as much talent as possible.
Nelson has to go. Now. It's possible that Monta doesn't want to play for the Warriors anyway because of Rowell, but if Nellie is driving Monta away, it's time to pul the trigger and try to salvage something. That might buy us the time we need for Cohan to find a buyer so we can get rid of him.
(No comments saying "Its Kawakami" as if that means its all b.s. His track record on this sort of thing is actually pretty decent. Not perfect, but pretty good. Whenever he posts something predicting trouble, he's slammed by fans of the team - who never seem to apologize when he's later proven right.)
If Monta can pout his way out of town, isn't Randolph next? We already know that Randolph and Nellie don't get along (Yes. We know. Take off the blinders and watch Randolph's body language as Nellie jerks his minutes around) so he's next. You can't get equal talent back when you're trading a disgruntled player.
The drafting of Monta and Randolph are two of the few bright spots we've experienced in the last couple of years. Are we really prepared to throw them all away?
I'm disgusted and disappointed. If this goes down, don't you know that Curry is going to start making his calendar for when he can flee, too? This is going to get worse before it gets better.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Curry might be able to last
Nellie will be gone in two years (I think), all Curry has to do is be patient and then once Nellie is gone he can start playing well.
Formerly known as Five Ten Entertainment.
by Precise Films Productions on Nov 17, 2009 11:21 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
You're comparing Webber, a borderline HoF'er, with Monta...
One of the few to have appreciated Cap'n Jax. Do well in NC, get that 8th seed!
Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!
by ejdacanay on Nov 17, 2009 11:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Webber is not a borderline HOFer
He was a very good player, who played a more important position than Monta.
But it almost doesn’t matter. Both are very good players. Both are players who have flaws but who you’d like to have on your team.
You can’t win if you make a habit of driving players like that away.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 17, 2009 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally irrelevant
I don’t see what your point is. The bottom line is, you have a young up and coming player who isn’t happy in his current situation because (presumably) of the coach. One of the two have to go.
This is exactly like the Webber situation. That time, the team ended up choosing Nellie and trading CWebb. And then Nellie gets fired a year later anyways. Let’s not make the same mistake twice.
Whether or not Ellis is HOF caliber player is irrelevant. I don’t even see the logic in bringing that point up.
by barrance on Nov 17, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whether or not Ellis is HOF caliber player is irrelevant. I don’t even see the logic in bringing that point up.
The relevance is that Webber was a ‘franchise big man’, something that teams don’t often get a shot at. If you want to contend for a championship, the ‘franchise big man’ isn’t a complete requirement, but it sure seems like most of ’em have one. Monta is a tweener guard. Teams get shots at tweener guards, even very talented ones, far more often. If you want to contend for a championship, you have to have a way to cover for the ’tweener-ness" of that tweener guard.
The rewards for keeping a player like Webber and the rewards for a player like Ellis are not the same. Assessing the cost/benefit thus doesn’t have to be the same.
by jae on Nov 17, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I’ll give you that Webber was a “franchise big man”’ vs. Ellis, who is a “tweener guard”. But now that you’ve established that the “rewards” for keeping a player like Ellis and Webber are different, what is your conclusion? I don’t see how you have concluded that ejdacanay’s point is now relevant.
The parallel’s in Webber’s and Ellis’ situation are obvious. Both young stars, both don’t get along with the coach. You can factor in position/importance into the equation, but the bottom line is, back in ‘94, they chose Nellie, only to fire him a year later. Just based on that alone, isn’t that enough to not go down the same path again, especially considering that there is more writing on the wall that Nellie isn’t here for the long term? Even if you say that Monta is less valuable to this team than Webber was 15 years ago, I’m willing to bet that Monta is going to be playing in the league 3 years from now. I can’t say the same about Nellie.
by barrance on Nov 17, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The parallels are obvious, but that doesn’t mean that they’re overwhelming. I think Webber would have kept us a perennial playoff team with an opportunity to contend. I do not think that we can say the same for Monta. Webber should have been ‘untouchable’. Monta? He should never be in that category. If a good trade comes along, he should go.
But that doesn’t mean Nellie should stay. Frankly, I’d favor shipping Monta out and sending Nellie back to Maui.
by jae on Nov 17, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting question, however:
Did Webber ever play on a team as bad and poorly-put-together as this one, and, if so, how did they do?
The Wizards were two games over .500 in 97-98. Would you trade our non-Ellis roster for their non-Webber roster? You’re talking Howard-Strickland-Cheney-Murray for Morrow-Maggette-Biedrins-Randolph?
(Not a hypothetical question. I’m genuinely curious, mostly because I think the value of a “franchise big man” may be overrated.)
by Ronaldinho on Nov 17, 2009 6:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I’d take our non-Monta lineup over their non-Webber lineup. They didn’t have anyone on that squad I’d give up Biedrins for and probably not anyone I’d give up Randolph for (and not the ‘potential’ Randolph, but the present, flawed version). They played some pretty crappy players. Rod Strickland was pretty good. He never received as much credit as he should have but he was much more than a solid point guard. Still, it was a down year for him in many ways. Murray was pretty respectable as a gunner. Beyond that, the Bullets were pretty awful. Juwan Howard was pretty terrible. He somehow managed to get an absurd amount of money despite never shooting well or rebounding well or being able to defend the rim is a mystery. As the other big, his abysmal 7 rebounds in 40 minutes on the court overshadow his just not very good 46% shooting. Playing him that much was a big mistake. Paying him that much a bigger mistake. Cheney? He didn’t rebound more than average for a guard, wasn’t much of a passer, didn’t shoot the long ball well enough and never got to the line, hence low efficiency and low point volume.
The thing about the “franchise big man” is that simply because there’s fewer people tall enough to play the position, the variance on performance should be higher than for guards. A standout big harder to come by and will outdistance the average (and the below average) bigs that other teams have to use by a large margin. This variation isn’t linear. Further, if you are not employing a standout big, there’s a greater chance that you’re using a substandard one and the difference between substandard and average is also greater.
by jae on Nov 17, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I can buy that...
But like you said, only if a good trade comes along. Monta certainly shouldn’t fall into the Jax category of “take whatevers available”.
by barrance on Nov 18, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Randolph might ask out sooner than a couple of months...
If everyone who asks for a trade gets one, why would he wait a few months? Nellie is screwing around with his minutes and he must be pissed. Teams would drool over having him and would give him the PT he deserves….
by Bellringer21 on Nov 17, 2009 11:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
From Kawakami:
Two sources say that Nelson embarrassed Ellis when Ellis tried to step into a leadership role in the aftermath of the 28-point home loss to the Clippers on Nov. 6.
The sources describe the scene in the post-game locker room: Ellis, as a co-captain, began loudly addressing to his teammates, telling them that this performance could not be tolerated.
But then Nelson came into the room and told Ellis to be quiet.
Speaking to reporters a few minutes later, Ellis was near-tears.
If true — and he’s claiming two sources, not one — that is fireably bad team-handling by Nellie. You tell a young guy he’s the leader and then humiliate him when he’s trying to lead?
Get this fat clown out of here. What the hell.
by onlxn on Nov 17, 2009 11:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
we don't really know how ellis was berating the team
after that LA-C game; he has shown an inclination to venting negative emotions, so the content of his exhortations might not have been exemplifying real leadership. Can we be confident what he said in that situation would not actually undermine his own credibility as a team leader, if he wasn’t strongly self-critical about his own play in the game? Ellis could define leadership as trash talking, taking some notable ‘best ever to play’ types as his role models. In a more normal work situation, the highest paid people given leadership roles generally have to seriously temper what negative thoughts/feelings they have in their public comments. With the Jackson situation, Ellis sounded like he put his personal relationship and biases well above any responsibility as the highest paid, and ostensibly best player on the team.
by the.monk on Nov 17, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Nellie put Ellis in a position of authority
He cannot then undermine that authority and expect Ellis to be able to be seen as an authority figure, thus defeating the entire purpose of having him be the captain. If he does not think Ellis is fit to be a captain, take the title away. If he thinks Ellis needs to be repremanded for being too harsh and/or hypocritical, tell him in private and have him apologize to the team individually.
Furthermore, the episode is clearly evidence of Ellis trying to be a leader. Contrary to popular opinion, there are a lot of leadership skills that you have to learn (public speaking being one of them). Some are inherently better than others, but don’t, for one second, think that Steve Jobs and Obama don’t practice, practice, practice, study, study, study, practice practice practice their public speaking personas, delivery, etc. Likewise, it takes experience to know how to best motivate. Both experience in knowing what works well for you and what works well for who you’re trying to motivate. There will be a learning curve with everyone. Nellie just axed Monta’s budding leadership after encouraging him to be a leader. If this was serious, Monta will never trust Nellie again. I’d rather have Monta.
What are you referring to in regards to the Jax situation?
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 17, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. It certainly seems like Monta is trying to be a leader: he’s working hard, particularly on defense, and he’s trying to be more vocal. He may still make a lot of mistakes, both on the court and off, but he’s a shy guy who just turned 24… there is no reason to think he’ll be a brilliant leader right away. Maybe he’ll never even become a good leader. But he seems to be making a good-faith effort to try.
By cutting Monta off, Nellie humiliates a shy guy and makes it all the more difficult for him to learn how to speak up in the future. It’s inconsistent, it’s counterproductive, and it’s disrespectful. You don’t handle people that way.
by onlxn on Nov 18, 2009 10:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Smelling a rat here
This really is way past anything that could be construed as “media BS.” I want Nellie out. I still believe in his basketball intelligence and I’m not remotely upset about his basketball handling of Randolph, but players will not want to play and compete if their coach treats them like immature little children or trash. Management doesn’t work that way. Especially the management of people you’ve appointed to leadership positions. I don’t care what they did, you simply cannot berate a team captain in front of the team and expect that captain to maintain any level of authority. If they did something so heinous to deserve a public rebuking, they deserve to have their captainship stripped. That has not happened, and even if Ellis was a little out of line after that game, he had a right to be. The team was terrible.
If Cohan has any business sense and wants to keep any part of his fanbase, he cannot simply stand by while this happens. It may cost him a few million dollars to buy out Nelson, but it’s really the only option. Other than shooting for some serious lotto luck for a post-Nellie Warriors team.
Is Monta a leader right now? Not quite. Is Randolph ready to compete and win right now? No. But both are far more important to the long term success of this team than Nellie (who’s all but gone once he gets his record). And we all know there will be no short term success.
What seems to be the problem with Nellie and these guys? I point to the Randolph situation as the perfect example:
Nellie has handled Randolph perfectly fine from a basketball standpoint. When Randolph showed up, he was a bull in a china shop. You could see the talent, but it wasn’t directed, at all. Now, Randolph is a much, much better player than when he showed up. However Randolph still resents Nellie and hates the way he’s being used. Why? Either Nellie neglects to explain why he’s doing things this way or Randolph doesn’t like the reasons. To me, the reasons are simple:
1. You are constantly in foul trouble
2. You are sometimes out of position in an offensive set
3. We’re down big men, so we’ve got to play whoever we can wherever we need to.
4. Right now, you’re better at center type things than forward types of things
If Randolph doesn’t accept responsibility for #1 & #2, he’s never going to make it in the NBA. He should be studying the plays and be working on the fouling problem.
If he doesn’t accept the current eality of #3, he’s stupid. If, however, he’s upset that the FO hasn’t done what onlxn has requested, he’s got a point and I expect the FO is looking for something along those lines.
- is the tricky one. Either Randolph doesn’t agree with Nellie that he’s better at center stuff right now (and Nellie is right here), or Nellie just hasn’t communicated things properly. Here’s what should have been said:
“You’re really really talented, and you’ve got a long illustrious road ahead. I fully expect you to develop your outside shot and be able to consistently take people off the dribble, I’ve seen and I appreciate all the work you put in this summer. However, right now, what this team needs is your skills down low. We’re a little short on guys right now, so people are going to have to play out of position until we can work out a personnel solution. On top of that, you’re our best rebounder, even more so with Andris down. We need you to do what you do. We need you to do what you do best. Once things get settled, you’ll have a chance to try out some new stuff, but right now, we need you at center.”
I just have a feeling that this statement comes out of Nellie’s mouth as a 2 sentence string of dismissive and insulting expletives. In other words: Nellie is an ornery old knowitall who doesn’t have any patience for anybody who isn’t going to do what he tells them to do without asking questions or disagrees with him.
In sum: Get this guy off my lawn! He may be good at taking care of the lawn, but that doesn’t mean he gets to treat me like fertilizer.
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 17, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What the heck?
Apparently when you start a line with “#4,” it comes out like this:
- I think the SBN numbering algorithm needs some work….
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 17, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What an f'd up day!
Why does it seem like centuries have gone by since we last made the playoffs?!!
Nelson wants to get fired and collect his paycheck while puffing cigars on the beach in Maui and I’m all for giving him that nice golden parachute!
I still don’t buy Ellis becoming a role model type leader with Nelson gone, but would rather take the chance rather than have Nelson here to chase out the rest of the roster. If things continue as they are, are headliner is going to be Mikki Moore!
by ajtrinc on Nov 17, 2009 12:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Ellis may not be the long-term solution for this team ...
… but trading him under fire is definitely not the way to get value for him.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 17, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How are we selling him under fire? That is assuming he makes it public that he wants out and lets it affect his play on the court.
I don’t have a problem with Riley shopping him around and seeing what his value is. If we can’t get anything of value, we don’t have to trade him.
Riley is in the drivers seat and as long as he lets Ellis know he can’t force his way out, then I see us being able to get some value for him.
by ajtrinc on Nov 17, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If we know this, and Ellis' rep have been authorized to seek a trade, trust me ...
… every GM in the league knows it.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 17, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Every GM in the league knows he is available, but it shouldn’t force our hand to take a less than desirable trade.
by ajtrinc on Nov 18, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it shouldn't.
But those are circumstances which make it harder to get value.
When everybody knows you’re going to trade a guy, you’ll tend to get lowballed.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 19, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nellie
I haven’t been to a Warrior game this year (as I don’t want to give Cohan any more money) and won’t be going to any games, but is Nellie at least getting booed during pre-game introductions? He did this to us in 94-95 and is doing it again.
How depressing that we have next to nothing left from We Believe.
by Eggman on Nov 17, 2009 12:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry.
We’ll find another player with a career-ending injury to trade for both Monta and AR.
Romes Mac Mojous
by ROMESdavidWOOD37 on Nov 17, 2009 12:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nelson is a JOKE! He makes the Warriors a JOKE!
The only team in the league that would hire Nelson is the Warriors. The only team that likes to stay in hell is the Warriors. At least the other garbage teams in the league try. Today is the first day that I am done. I made it through the last 15 years of horrible basketball. Its all going in a box until the team is sold. Goodbye my fellow Warriors fans. I cannot take it anymore. I will see you when Nelson is gone and Monta is scoring 30 a game for a contender.
I would also like to apologize to the great players that have been wronged by the Warriors.
Chris Gatling
Tim Hardaway
Chris Mullin
Latrell Sprewell
Chris Webber
Joe Smith
Erick Dampier
Antwan Jamison
Gilbert Arenas
Jason Richardson
Baron Davis
Mickael Pietrus
Al Harrington
Stephen Jackson
Future Goodbye to;
Monta Ellis
Anthony Randolph
Andris biedreins
Brandan Wright
Stephen Curry
Kelenna Azubukie
by G.Rock on Nov 17, 2009 2:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
WTF?
How the heck was Mullin wronged by the Warriors as a player? Or Sprewell? He wronged us, not the other way around? Joe Smith, Dampier? We didn’t wrong those guys (unless you count overpaying Dampier “wronging” him). We wronged Pietrus in some way?
How was Gil wronged by the Warriors? We put him in a position to showcase his skills, and left for more money than we could afford to pay him. Nor was Jamison wronged by the Warriors in any meaningful sense, unless you count trading a player wronging him. Even Jason Richardson is a dubious addition to that list. He was traded. Trading a player isn’t insulting them.
by Ronaldinho on Nov 17, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As I have said multiple times
Sprewell only did what so many of our fans wanted to do. In fact I would become even a bigger fan of Monta if he choked Nellie out. We would have to get rid of one of them no matter what. If we got rid of Nellie, Monta would be busting his tail all over the floor to prove it was Nellies fault. And if they shipped Monta, then maybe we would see Nelson coaching again. He can be a good to great coach, but he has to be motivated.
by Oracle Junkie on Nov 17, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
hold on there.
Gatling, Smith, Damp,Pietrus,Al Harrington…are in no way or ever were “great” players, in fact those are all players who were drafted too high and did not pan out. Has nothing to do with Nellie or the Warriors.
In reality Don Nelson had nothing to do with almost any of these players, besides the last 5 on your list. those others went through this organization sure, but each ended up leaving for a variety of reasons so i don’t really follow your logic. if u wanted to put Mitch Richmond on the list that would make at least some sense. Don Nelson is not the problem, the ownership and management is to blames.
by Jagz8 on Nov 17, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Movie Over
This three ring circus needs to come to an end….We need a change of management not players….Bring in new life by getting a new coach and GM…..The Nelson/Riley/RR era is officially OVER……
This is not the first go around with the Don…The breaking down of communications is inexcusable, Leaders led by promoting the correct dialogue..,..Don tried with Jack but didn’t succeed because he lost credibility because everyone knows he don’t give hoot anymore…
I think they should have found a way to appease Jackson for starters….He was lied to by management…He was told we were going after a veteran player to contend for a title, So what did management do? Downgraded the team and signed a couple of non factor type players.
It’s time for the fans so speak out and show their disapproval…I will not be attending another game until the management issue is resolved…..RR has to fire both Don and Riley for starters….take the reins out of their hands and find credible first rate people to come in and help rebuild the image of this franchise,…It’s in shambles and it’s not the first time under Nelsons watch…enough is enough…
Cohen will not fire RR and no one can fire Cohen…So were stuck…. But both Nelson and Riley need to step down for lack of competence and broken promises…
by Cryptic on Nov 17, 2009 3:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
hey warriors fans
To all of you with season tix….you are enabling management to continue this mess. Everyone needs to make a statement, eat their money & tix etc, and stop going to Warriors games until Nellie is gone.
All older people either become calm, wise people or old & insane. It’s quite obvious where Nellie is headed.
STOP going to games. Period! No free agents want to play for him or Riley.
Lastly, Cohen needs to fill a pinch in his wallet. The only way to do this is not purchase anymore tix. Do not renew your tix either. It’s pretty simple.
by Matt Millen on Nov 17, 2009 9:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
wow we like our drama here don't we.
And here I stopped reading at “Kawakami is reporting that”.
I will wait for a reliable source then see what’s up from there.
This house is full of m, m, madness!
This house is full of m, m, mistakes!
by qin on Nov 18, 2009 2:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I knew somebody would have this reaction.
See the parenthetical aside in the fanpost. :)
by Ronaldinho on Nov 19, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So I searched through all that garbage just to find your take which was conveniently placed in the middle and all I can say is welcome abord TK, nice of you to show up and use a pseudonym.
This house is full of m, m, madness!
This house is full of m, m, mistakes!
by qin on Nov 20, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can vouch 100% that Ronaldinho is not in any way shape or form Tim Kawakami.
by jae on Nov 20, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome.
Almost every post here is 100% wrong. I almost get overwhelmed reading them. Its like walking into a room that just survived a terrorist attack consisted of pipe bombs, grenades and bullets.
WHERE TO START? LOL
All I can say is, none of those players went on to other teams and played and won so much that were still crying.
All of them were statistical heroes, and nothing more.
NOTHING.
by sjboy on Nov 19, 2009 12:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
sjboy?
What is your take on the current situation? Do you think this is a positive direction for the team to get rid of it’s best players and start all over again?
We have all been down this road before and seen how many years it takes to rebuild…..When the players lose confidence in their coach and management they will all one by one jump ship when it is in their advantage to do so..
We need a change…….What is going on a the domino effect, The min they gave in to AH it open the door for Jack and Jack opens the door for Monte and Monte opnes the door for AR and he opens the door for Curry….
Good leadership would be able to get control over the situation and not give into the players demands but now how to circumvent these things and mnip them in the bud…Just like the Lakers did with Kobe…
NO EXCUSES…..THIS LEADERSHIP TEAM HAS TO BE REPLACED …..NOTHING IS WRONG WITH THE PLAYERS…THEY ARE REACTING TO BAD MANAGEMENT…..
by Cryptic on Nov 19, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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