RUMOR: Warriors and Bobcats looking for big men
by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 30, 2009 9:11 AM PST
in Rumors
139 comments
The secret is the Dubs need some bigs!
Jump for the 411!
From Y! Sports Adrian Wojnarowski's twitter feed:
Golden State and Charlotte front office's still scouring landscape for bigs, league execs say, but struggling to find do-able deals.
The good news is that the Warriors have a multitude of very tradable assets from young players with (mostly mythical) upside to several nice role players (Andris Biedrins, Ronny Turiaf, Corey Maggette, C.J. Watson) to a potential All-Star (Monta Ellis) to a plethora of expiring contracts to make the numbers add up (Raja Bell, Speedy Claxton, Devean George, Mikki Moore, and C.J. Watson).
The bad news is of course that the Warriors desperately need some bigs and the rest of the league knows this. The center duo of Andris Biedrins and Ronny Turiaf has given the Warriors very little this season mostly because of injuries. When they do finally come back, the reality is that they're output offensively and defensively is not exactly All-NBA quality. 3rd string center Mikki Moore is... a 3rd string center. At the 4 spot the Warriors haven't really gotten that much this season from Anthony Randolph despite what the numbers may indicate. My man Feltbot breaks this down:
Anthony Randolph vs. Himself: We've all seen flashes of Randolph's insane upside. Unfortunately, tonight's performance put the emphasis on insane. Anthony Randolph picked up his second melted brain of the year in this game, but this time it was his own. Pau Gasol was simply too much for Anthony Randolph to handle. He picked up two quick fouls trying to guard him in his first minute on the court. He couldn't keep Gasol off the boards either, even giving up an offensive rebound on a free throw. And he couldn't get anything against him on the offensive end. He was forced to settle for jumpers, and he didn't hit them, earning himself a quick hook from Smart.
In the second half, Randolph's frustration grew to the point that he took the matchup personally. After knocking the ball away from Gasol, he dived into the front row after the ball, completely wiping out three fans. Without a glance back, let alone an expression of concern for the fans he had just concussed, Randolph rushed back onto the court and began jawing at Gasol. When the refs and then Kobe interceded, Randolph lit into Kobe. If you've never seen a 20-year-old player tell the face of the NBA to "Back up!" I recommend you replay this tape and employ your amateur lip-reading skills. You'll see it, and possibly a choice epithet to boot.
Keith Smart wisely pulled Randolph from the game, and left him on the bench until garbage time. Will this performance cause the Bay Area media to lower the heat on Don Nelson over Randolph's playing time, and seriously consider Coach Smart's insinuation that Randolph is not NBA-ready? Um, I wouldn't count on it.
Brandan Wright is also out for the season, not that he's been that good to begin with.
The Dubs biggest weakness right now (aside from owner Chris Cohan and president Robert Rowell) is up front.
But enough of the diagnosis, what's the solution? Using ESPN's Trade Machine post your trade ideas to upgrade the Dubs' frontline in the comments.
Some of the other teams out there that need a roster shakeup are the Indiana Pacers (poor Danny Granger- aren't you glad former Warriors executive Chris Mullin passed him up to draft bust Ike Diogu?), Toronto Raptors (wildly overrated Craptors in every sense of the word- FREE CHRIS BOSH!), Detroit Pistons (their Bad Boys were just bad signings), Washington Wizards (I'm surprised they aren't better), Philadephia 76ers (make sure to read Philly's dirty little sports secret- fascinating stuff), New York Knicks (not signing Allen Iverson was just foolish), New Jersey Nets (going for the record!), Sacramento Kings (Jason Thompson is owning the sophomore battle with Anthony Randolph thus far), LA Clippers (cursed), New Orleans Hornets (Speedy Claxton + expiring contracts for Baron Davis- ooops, I mean Chris Paul anyone?), Memphis Grizzlies (starting Mike Conley over Iverson was a joke), and Minnesota Timberwolves (the triangle isn't so special without MJ, Scottie, Shaq, or Kobe now is it?).
For more on the Charlotte Bobcats check out Rufus on Fire
99% of rumors never happen, but 99% of them are fun to talk about!
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Here's the problem:
Biedrins and Turiaf are a good center combo. Randolph seems very likely to be effective in the future, but he’s still learning and having very typical rookie problems (fouls, inability to defend bigger players). Even Wright still has the potential to be an effective player.
Ultimately, while there are better big men, it’s going to be very hard to trade one of those guys for a better big man. So trading one of those guys would really be trading the future for the present – which isn’t a horrible thing to do, unless it costs us net talent.
But trading someone else for a big creates another problem: these guys are going to get healthy and come back, and unless we can get a clearly better big (which is not easy to do) then we’ll end up with a glut of big men, who Nelson won’t play!
The Warriors have assets to give up
But no one has the right players for the Warriors to got that is actually willing to move them, besides backups. And honestly, what difference does having a different backup big make if Randolph, Biedrins, and Turiaf are still here? This team still finishes out of the playoffs and gives up assets to get a slightly worse draft pick with the three highest-minute bigs not changing at all.
The guys who should be the target of Warriors assets are difference-making starter quality guys like Bosh and Amare, but they absolutely will not be traded during the season. As such, the team should take their lumps and use the inevitable lotto pick to take a guy who can contribute at the 4/5. I’m a supporter of Larry Sanders and Greg Monroe, but it’ll probably be Donatas Motiejunas
I think we need to wait and see how Goose and Turiaf return from injury before we make a move. Yes, Biedrins looked passive and weak before he went out, but the injury must have been a contributing factor. As Ronaldinho wrote, another backup big won’t do us any good once everyone is healthy. Bosh is obviously intriguing, and a Monta/Bosh combo might score enough to make the playoffs, but we would still need a really good center to pair Bosh with in order to have any hope of being a real threat to the better teams. Biedrins and Bosh together would be outstanding but I see no way to get that done. The Raptors don’t need contracts and I doubt they want any of our players all that much.
If Charlotte wants bigs, I’d be willing to move Turiaf and contracts (assuming Biedrins comes back healthy and productive) for Gerald Wallace.
GM’s around the league are looking at Randolph the way vultures look at a dying water buffalo, they are waiting to pick him off our scrap heap. Not saying it actually goes down that way, but I doubt anyone would trade much for him given the prevailing assumption that he won’t be with us for long. He still has enough “upside” to warrant a much longer look from us. That combination of skills does not come along everyday.
Our most valuable assets are Raja Bell and Speedy Claxton. Some combination including those two expirings should be able to net us something helpful if Riley plays it right.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Why is there an assumption Randolph won't stay with us?
I haven’t heard about this.
by GoldenStateGuerrero on Nov 30, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
The national media has been reporting on the supposed tension between Randolph and Nelson for a long time. He has been annointed as the second coming by a lot of writers who probably have never seen him play. I actually think we are handling him the right way, and I don’t see any real tension. Regardless, I think other GM’s do look at us a sort of farm system for the big leagues (and rightly so, given our past record of holding onto talent).
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
We need *Better* bigs
Specifically ones that can alter shots, man up his defender, and rebound.
The problem is; Will we play them?
One of the few to have appreciated Cap'n Jax. Do well in NC, get that 8th seed!
Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!
Probably not...
We got Chris Hunter who can defend the post and who actually has some post moves, yet we don’t utilize him unless all our bigs are in trouble.
Did you see Hunter get abused by Bynum on Saturday? Bynum isn’t even a polished player and he made it pretty clear why Hunter was in the D-League. He will be very useful against pure brawn types like Oden/Howard, but he is not the solution.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
In all fairness to Hunter
Bynum has been tearing up ALL his competition this year, the guy is posting close to 20-10 a game. Not to mention that he only went12-7 against us that game and most of it was not against Hunter.
Polished or not, when you have Kareem teaching him that baby hook, that’s a move that no one can really defend against when it’s on.
I agree the guy is not the answer, but he’s serviceable and has played well in the allotted minutes.
The biggest problem is
Biedrins is only worth giving up for an upgrade, aka a player who is established or on the cust of all star level. To get that player Randolph will certainly HAVE to be included (he’s most intriguing piece and for a team to give up a quality big, they expect something in return. With Randolph they get illusion of a future All star big, which for a re-building team is great). But even then I can’t find many options….
The up and coming bigs like brook lopez, hibbert… there teams will be pressed to give them up for biedrins.
The only elite big who’d be attainable is bosh, but he will walk
I might get destroyed for saying this...
But I would give up Biedrins and Randolph for Brook Lopez.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
i'd think about it....
contractually we’d have to get expirings with (and it’d clear around 8 mil in space). Would that be enough to get bosh? amare? NO
Could we possibly get D-lee, Luis Scola with that cap room? Definitely…..
WOULD a big rotation of Dlee/Scola, Lopez, Wright, Turiaf be better than Randolph, Biedrins, Turiaf, WrighT???? It’s definitely not straight forward
I will probably
wait until Beans got back in his full potential. Then will see it from there
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
Would you trade Morrow and Biedrins and Wright
for Al Jefferson?
by Son of Gerald Green on Nov 30, 2009 12:41 PM PST reply actions
Er, what?
I wouldn’t trade any one of those guys for Al Jefferson. Jefferson has never been that good, and this season for some reason he flat out sucks. .490 TS% from a supposed “post threat”?
How ’bout you guys give us Love and the rights to Rubio for your unwanted stuff?
p.s.@Owen: “Lupine Fantasizin’” would be a great name for the Wolves fan blog…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 30, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
Jefferson was damn good last year. And don’t go throwing some stats at me that prove I’m wrong: I watched Al very closely last year.
He does suck this year though – like You said.
If Bochy coached the Warriors Bengie Molina would start every game at PG.
by cybermaldonado on Nov 30, 2009 6:35 PM PST up reply actions
you can throw out one very important stat to prove you are wrong about: scoring efficiency. for such a supposedly great post player, he sure doesn’t put the ball in the hoop at an impressive rate. two seasons above the league average for TS% (and barely) do not make you a great scorer.
and here’s one non-stat that makes me think he’s incredibly overrated: he can’t play defense. at all.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
I took cybermaldonado’s comment as not being serious and making fun of others….sarcasm is you will….
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 8:16 PM PST up reply actions
f we can get a genuinely good big at low cost, sure, but that’s not likely. We shouldn’t be in any real rush to give up talent for a big just for the sake of it… we have some decent bigs when healthy, and this season’s probably already a wash, anyway.
But we should be willing to send money along with Devean George to acquire an end-of-bench big with upside. We should be willing to flat-out drop George if another genuinely interesting guy like Mensah-Bonsu comes available via waivers. And we should look to move CJ for a big when he becomes tradeable in two weeks, as there are teams that are pretty desperate for help at the point. CJ to Chicago for Aaron Gray? CJ to Philly for a protected first-rounder? CJ to Orlando for a first, or the rights to Rakovic? All these things are worth pursuing.
One of the front office’s big problems is an inability to gauge the relative importance of different needs. We don’t have a gaping frontcourt hole going forward… whatever Nellie (and Atma) may think, Biedrins and Randolph are fairly productive players even if they never get better than they currently are. We shouldn’t trade them or anyone else of real value right now, as everyone’s value is too in flux to assure ourselves of a good return. We also aren’t good enough to merit adding a contract of any size in an attempt to compete now. But we do have an inert roster spot in George, and we do have a nice little trade chip in CJ that we’d be fools not to use. We should try to add a big if we can, but only around the margins for now. I really hope the team understands that it’s not all or nothing in a situation like this. In context, we should be looking to deal, but as sellers, not buyers.
by onlxn on Nov 30, 2009 12:42 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Do we have good bigs?
Lets look at list of PF/C’s who I think are better (or i’d prefer) than Biedrins/Turiaf:
Kevin Garnett
Rasheed Wallace
Chris Bosh
David Lee
Brook Lopez
Joakim Noah
Andrew Bogut
Dwight Howard
Al Hortford
Jermaine Oneal
Nene
Greg Oden
Memhet Okur
Carlos Boozer
Al Jefferson
Amare
Pau Gasol
Lamar odom
Andrew Bynum
Chris Kaman
Blake Griffin
Dirk
Tim Duncan
Luis Scola
Yao Ming
Emeka Okafor
Marc Gasol
Of those 27, 11 are under the age of 25, an additional 10 are under 30 (amare- 27, Dlee- 26)
We can use an upgrade at every position to be honest. but an improved big is a great way to help our team
by tafkasam on Nov 30, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I’d rather have a healthy Biedrins than a lot of those players. Players I would definitely take over Biedrins from that list: Howard, Gasol, Bynum, Blake Griffin, Bosh….I don’t know how many others are clear cut. Obviously Garnett/Duncan are better than Biedrins, but given our current situation (young, not current playoff contenders), I would consider taking Biedrins for the future over them…
I’m sure if I looked closer there’d be a handful more I’d take, but the point is, I strongly disagree that the list is that expansive. Not many of those players can rebound and score efficiently the way Biedrins does.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
thats y i put the age disclaimer. So taking out the established super stars who r older...
So going down the list… Players under age of 26:
Bosh, Lee, B.Lopez, Noah, Bogut, Howard, Hortford, Oden, Jefferson, Bynum, Griffin, MGasol….
Lee is a tossup cause he’s 3 years older. Oden is younger and starting to show what he can do. and I really don’t find any of the other 10 there disputable. Maybe Bogut actually
Bosh on talent, Biedrins on contract/guarantee that he’ll be around beyond this year.
Jefferson is one of the most overrated players in the NBA. On pace to be the next Zach Randolph/Jamal Crawford. Let me know when he plays for a winning team (won’t happen because he doesn’t provide the things that cause a team to win).
Brook Lopez…hmmm…I’d probably take Biedrins. Biedrins rebounding edge is pretty huge. I don’t watch the Nets, though, if you want to elaborate on Brook’s D and overall offensive game (he was efficient last year, not this year, doesn’t look to rack up many assists, does he get everyone involved?), I’m willing to listen.
Noah – I’d take Biedrins. At best, Noah is Biedrins. At worst, he’s not that good.
Howard and Bynum are obvious, of course I’d take them.
Horford – Biedrins has been more productive than Horford over the last couple years. I guess it depends on what kind of improvement you see out of Horford, since he’s only in year 3.
Oden – Oden scares me. His potential scares me. His downside risk scares me. I can’t fault anyone for picking Oden. I think it would depend on whether I was in a risk taking mood or not. I can see an argument both ways.
I’d take Blake Griffin. Rebounding should translate well, so he should be a beast on the glass, and he’s a good athlete that should provide a lot of value. I’d take him over Biedrins.
Other Gasol – maybe. I dunno, haven’t seen him play. His numbers this year are good, but it’s a SSS.
David Lee – Almost identical to Biedrins. I’d take him for health reasons if we’re assuming equal contract status, but given he’s on a one year contract, I’d rather have Biedrins.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Oden – Oden scares me. His potential scares me. His downside risk scares me. I can’t fault anyone for picking Oden. I think it would depend on whether I was in a risk taking mood or not. I can see an argument both ways.
This is basically how I feel about Randolph, heh.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 2:42 PM PST up reply actions
Great Post
Although I disagree about Brook. Brook is a stud, a future all-star.
Not that analysts are always right, but he is in ESPN’s top-5 watch for Defensive Player of the Year, one of the league leaders in both blocks and rebounds, and is a much more diverse offensive player than Biedrins is.
I haven’t heard an NBA analyst (again, they’re not always right) who hasn’t predicted him as a perennial all-star who would be #2 if last year’s draft was redone…
I dunno, looking at the stats, I’m seeing a pretty average rebounder. 9.6 and 9.1 rebounds per 36 so far. His offensive game was pretty good last year, this year he’s upped his volume but his efficiency is a little below average. I’m inclined to think he’s on his way to being a pretty good offensive player, obviously he has a lot more games at good efficiency than below average efficiency. The lack of assists makes me wonder…does he have what it takes to get everyone involved? Can he be a Duncan type that really helps the offense run, or is he just going to be able to get his own shot? Given that he’s not a Dwight Howard/Shaq type dominant physical force, will his offense make his teammates better? I haven’t really seen him play, I don’t have positive or negative answers to these questions, if anyone else does, they’re welcome to discuss…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
Excellent Points
I would still much prefer Brooke over Beans, but you make fantastic points.
My opinion (and admittedly I watched him much more at Stanford than I have at the pro level), is that he can be a fantastic offensive player. he can be a very good passer at times, and, to be honest, I think that his downfalls have been born out of playing on a horrible team. Can anyone name a talented offensive player on the nets other than Devin Harris? He plays in a stagnant offense that does not feature players cutting or moving to open spots, and that relies on him to do most of the scoring. I think, if he played alongside a very talented wingman, he would become a very efficient scorer.
I also think that he, like Amar’e, could be even more deadly as a PF.
Yeah, like I said, I’ve heard he has potential and he put up some pretty decent stats as a rookie, so I don’t think you’re offbase at all. I really don’t know enough about him to expand on the discussion past what we’ve already said.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
I would probably trade Biedrins for M. Gasol right now.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 30, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, most of those guys are better than Biedrins, and plenty more besides these 27 are better than Turiaf. But age, contract and context matter. I mean, we’re not talking about a team in a vacuum. We’re talking about this particular, young, going-nowhere team. Who, of these 27, would it make sense for us to add?
(Note: Barry covered this stuff well lower down
Kevin Garnett – NO. Old, fading and horrifically expensive for a couple more years. Yeah, he’s better than Biedrins. So? We wouldn’t go anywhere with Garnett aboard. He’s not that level of player anymore.
Rasheed Wallace – NO. Old and really not all that good… a better defender, but no longer as good as Biedrins.
Chris Bosh – YES. Much better than Biedrins, also young, much healthier. No-brainer. Will be worth whatever he costs.
David Lee – NO. They’re close, and if you prefer him to Biedrins, you can have him… I’ll take the shot-affecter.
Brook Lopez – YES. I’d take him over Biedrins, i think. He’s looking awfully promising.
Joakim Noah – NO. Really, Noah over Biedrins? In this, his peak year, he’s having an average Biedrins years, with a plus-minus so bad that you’d be hard-pressed to say he’s playing great defense. He’s really not as good as Andris Biedrins.
Andrew Bogut – NO! Not better than Biedris, just as injury-prone, much more expensive. Come on, people.
Dwight Howard – YES, of course.
Al Horford – YES, I guess… still on a rookie contract, better defender. Not a huge gap, but I’d probably take Horford.
Jermaine Oneal – NO. Old, injury risk, expensive as hell, worse player. A worse commodity than Biedrins in every way.
Nene – close, but NO. Very similar players in value — Biedrins is younger and cheaper. Nene’s health is also an issue.
Greg Oden – YES, although Oden is a pretty risky guy.
Memhet Okur – NO. I suppose you can argue for Okur if you like, but he’s old and his skills are hard to maximize. Not for me.
Carlos Boozer – NO. Better than Biedrins? Sure. But why five years of a good young center for a rental?
Al Jefferson – NO. Horrific contract, still trying to get back to his peak, and possibly not as good as Biedrins at his peak.
Amare – NO. Historically a much better player than Biedrins, but slipping badly (under seven boards a game this year), and won’t be worth the money he gets. Andris Biedrins is a better value than Amar’e will be.
Pau Gasol – YES. A significantly better player, a player that basically any team should try to get if they can.
Lamar Odom – NO. I mean, a comparably good player, but I ain’t about to trade a solid center for a flaky combo forward.
Andrew Bynum – PROBABLY. Bynum’s contract and knee issues are dicey… this would be a gamble. But probably.
Chris Kaman – NO. Not nearly as valuable as he looks, and older and pricier. That’d be a downgrade.
Blake Griffin – YES, presuming there are no long-term implications expected from his current injury.
Dirk – NO. Twice the player Biedrins is, but he’d be gone in a year. Why bother?
Tim Duncan – SURE, if you want, I guess. He’s still pretty damn good.
Luis Scola – NO. Really nice, useful, underrated player. He’s not as good as Andris Biedrins
Yao Ming – NO. C’mon.
Emeka Okafor – NO. Nice player, but not $2 million a year better than Andris.
Marc Gasol – YES. That guy on a rookie contract… yeah, better value than Biedrins.
Out of your 27, I count 10 that’d would be worth upgrading Biedrins into: Howard, Bosh, Duncan, Lopez, Horford, Oden, Griffin, Bynum and the Gasol boys. And of those, I count exactly two that can even plausibly be traded for: Bosh and Marc Gasol. Bosh seems likely to stay a Raptor and would be a good bet to bolt even if we managed to trade for him; we’d have to take another contract or two back with Marc Gasol, and they’d probably be pretty damn ugly.
The Warriors have enough problems without making some up out of thin air. We have a pretty good nucleus of bigs that are currently on the shelf; we are not playoff-bound, nor one move away from being playoff-bound. This would be the worst possible time to decide that we HAVE to upgrade ourselves in the frontcourt. Let’s see what we have in these guys before we shuttle them off while their value’s low.
by onlxn on Nov 30, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
This is Biedrins 2nd year w/ a length injury.
It’s worrying me. And I’m hardpressed to not seeing it getting worse. to top it off, he is a very limitd player. he cannot create his own offense, he’s shown no ability to. He plays w/o his limitations which is a huge plus. I just don’t see him getting much better….
It’s fine if he is a role player but if we can turn him into an above average player (not even a star, though 1 would be nice) why not trade him?
My point was all those players in terms of playing ability are COMPARABLE 9or better than biedrins. Even if 7 or 8 are worse than him (i’ll admit I don’t believe all are better players) there are 20 bigs who are better players (this has nothing to do w/ contract cause once ur on the floor it DOESNT MATTER) than him. That means more teams than not have a better PF/C than us. So can we really consider him as elite or untouchable as some do?
by tafkasam on Nov 30, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you’re overestimating what a lot of other players provide and underestimating what Biedrins does. Biedrins doesn’t do much to create his own shot. Nor do many other big men. Biedrins is very, very efficient on offense, though, and really, how many other big men score at a much higher volume than he does while doing it at an efficient pace? Not many, and mostly the ones we’re on board with – Gasol, Howard, Duncan, etc…the rest of those guys don’t do any more offensively than Biedrins does. The important thing, though, is what Biedrins does as a rebounder. Guys that are better rebounders than Biedrins: Dwight Howard. The list could very well end there. That’s why he’s an above average player, and better than you seem to have him rated. There just aren’t that many centers that provide things that Biedrins doesn’t already do.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
Biedrins can only have those numbers ....if......
He has a player like Baron givng him the supply…. It will be interesting to see his numbers when he is back and fully fit, to see if he remains so “effective”.
GSOM Blog Beast!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 30, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
What numbers are we talking about here? He scored at the highest volume of his career last year, his efficiency took a small step back (it was at ridiculous and unsustainably high levels before) but was still very good, and he posted the best rebounding numbers of his career…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 2:42 PM PST up reply actions
how many games did he play last year?
and who was feeding him?
GSOM Blog Beast!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 30, 2009 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
62 games, and he had such awesome players as Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette, CJ Watson, Buike, unhealthy Monta feeding him. Nobody has claimed Biedrins scores at a huge volume or creates his own shot well, but there’s no strong evidence his numbers are inflated in any meaningful way, either…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 4:54 PM PST up reply actions
ok...
before you jump down my throat for the umpteenth time, could you just read what I posted….I merely noted that his game relies on supply. I didnt state anyone was saying he could create his own shots, inflated, etc etc etc…
My observation was merely that while very good, he is a 2 dimensional player and I am not sure if he will enjoy as much success with our current lineup…Unless….Curry starts to feed him just like Baron did..
But then this also goes back to my view that others around him may now start to take away somewhat from his numbers…as they are big targets to go to as well in addition to Andris being on the floor…
But thats the last I will add to this… I was thinking twice about saying anythng at all…. should have stuck with my gut thought…
GSOM Blog Beast!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 30, 2009 5:03 PM PST up reply actions
Sensitive a bit? I’m not jumping down anyones throat, just pointing out that Biedrins maintained his production without Baron last year. You could be right, I just think the next step in a discussion is to examine the facts we have to get some deeper insight into the opinions we’re discussing. I’m not sure why that just turned into such a big deal…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
Biedrins is an excellent rebounder, tremendously efficient scorer, good shot blocker/alterer, and an above average overall defender for a center (he would be a better defender if we gave up less dribble penetration and he could use his fouls in a more productive way). The only “problem” with him is that if he is your best frontcourt player, you probably won’t have an elite team. That does not mean you trade him, it means you keep him and look to build around him. Randolph has the tools to complement Biedrins perfectly. Remember that we still have not really seen these two operate together.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Randolph has the tools to complement Biedrins perfectly
I don’t know about that… It seems to me that they have very similar tools at this point.
Maybe in the future Randolph will complement Biedrins much better, but for now they are both rebounders/shot-blockers and non-factors on offense.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
I think non-factor is pretty misleading. On a team that likes to drive and shoot as much as the Warriors, having guys that rebound as well as they do is hardly a non-factor.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
True enough, probably not the right word choice. It would be more accurate to say non-threatening factors on offense.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
I think Biedrins is pretty threatening, all the Warriors have to do is get him the ball near the basket and he’s a lock to put it in. He might not be a traditional post up player, but he’s incredibly effective off the pick and roll. He catches and finishes with the best of them.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 4:55 PM PST up reply actions
My real issue is that Biedrins can’t stretch the floor at all, which means that the PF out there with him should be able to do so at least a little bit. Right now, Randolph isn’t capable of doing that, so their pairing together isn’t much of a threat on offense. This discussion was originally about Biedrins and Randolph being complementary, which I took objection to.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
True – do you think Randolph has a better chance of developing a back to the basket post up game or more of a Garnett/Bosh mid-range big man game? If he could develop either of those so he’s a real offensive threat, I could see it working.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
Definitely a mid-range game. I mean, for a game or two this season he was hitting those mid range jumpers and I couldn’t have been happier. Every time I’ve seen him with his back to the basket, he can’t back down his man at all, and looks completely uncomfortable with the ball.
I might be among the few, but I kinda liked Randolph at C for a few games. He fits the pick-n-roll dummy role fairly well, and those were the games where he actually hit some jumpers. I really like thinking about a Wright – Randolph, PF – C duo… The only problem is that strong big guys would eat them up for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
the problem w/ biedrins offensively is...
he has no back to post game, so he has to play face up. Problem is, he can’t shoot ANYTHING. Not even a 6 foot back shot.
an ideal compliment for Randolph would be a guy w/ a back to post game
“Problem is, he can’t shoot ANYTHING. Not even a 6 foot back shot.”
Yeah. He only puts the ball in the basket on 60% of his tries. What the heck is up with that?
this is the same tired argument
we have zero post game. It’s nice he isn’t like phillip seymour hoffman a la “along came polly” lettin’ it rain but it doesn’t exclude the fact he’s horribly limited and when he scores its cause of SOMEONE else.
Having a post player will only open up outside shots and make us a more efficient team. To go far in playoffs we will need to have something in the post, or monta + co will have to take it ANOTHER level than i think they r capable of.
I’m not saying he’s a bad player, but he’s limited and if we can upgrade him, would you say no? I’d trade monta if we could get BRoy or CP3 for example…. doesn’t mean i hate monta
by tafkasam on Nov 30, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s a fair point, but again, I don’t think there are many players with effective post games out there to upgrade to. Many of them are worse overall players (think Jefferson, Al, who would cause us to lose more games).
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
yep
Moreover, it’s by no means a given that Andris Biedrins can’t say alongside a skilled post player, as opposed to being replaced by one. It would indeed be good to upgrade one player in our lineup who can make good things happen in the post. But it doesn’t have to be Biedrins. You could upgrade Randolph into Carlos Boozer, or Maggette into Gerald Wallace, or Monta into Chauncey. You don’t have to dump the most productive player on the team because he doesn’t do that one thing.
Of course not
But using CP as your analogy sort of makes my point. He’s one of the top five best players in the game. Heck, he might be the best player in the league right now.
If we could replace Biedrins with somebody who played his same position, wasn’t at the very end of his career, and, oh yeah – was arguably the best player in the game – it’d be a no-brainer.
Instead, for want of “post game” (which few teams have) anyway people want to give up a player who does two things at an elite level (rebound, shoot at a high percentage).
There’s no player on our team who I’m opposed to upgrading. But I think the focus on Beidrins (he always comes up in this sort of conversation) has more to do with people overvaluing “pretty” over “efficient” (let’s call that the Allen Iverson effect) than anything which will actually help us get wins.
What Missing Barry and Oixcn’s posts have made clear is that there are very few players in the league who are a clear upgrade over Beans. That makes me think that maybe we should think twice before trying to “upgrade” that position.
I count exactly two that can even plausibly be traded for: Bosh and Marc Gasol
I think Lopez is plausible. When your team is 0-17, I think you consider every trade offered. No free agent wants to go to the team that just got the record for worst start of a season ever.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
Possible, I guess, but I don’t know why the Nets would bother… I don’t see any Lopez deal that’d make them attractive to free agents all of a sudden. And Lopez and Devin Harris, plus an extremely high pick, still puts them way ahead of the Knicks in terms of team appeal. I can’t see them moving Lopez this season.
I think they'd consider biedrins + Randolph for Lopez + Expirings
I realize it seems steep on our end. But consider we’d be getting a 21 year old (2 weeks younger than curry) C who is averaging 18.4 ppg, 9.1 rpg. His efficiency has only dropped because there injury situation has been so bad, he was literally only offensive option (they were missing harris, CDR and C-lee on a squad that wasn’t oozing w/ talent. As a team on season they are shooting 40.4%). He runs a GREAT pick and roll (considering his age), and he’s a really active hard worker on both ends. I think he’s kind of guy who will continue to improve and improve.
I’d do it… it’d save us 8.5 mil, and put us somewhere around 9 to 11 mil on next years cap projection. Not capable of making a run at bosh, but we could seriously move on David Lee, Luis Scola
I realize I’m inviting Randolph fan boys in to attack me. I think he has talent, but I’m just not sold he’ll ever figure it out, and TBH I would rather get a vet we can count on, a young player w/ an all star ceiling (Lopez) and a young player who I still think has the talent to be a well above average PF (BWright)
The way to look at Biedrins + Randolph for Lopez + expirings is as two separate trades: a swap of two guys on rookie deals and a dump of a fairly big contract for expiring money. Who wins these two trades, and by how much?
Lopez for Randolph: We win this one, for sure. Randolph is fun as hell, and I do think he has the higher ceiling… I totally disagree that Lopez will continue to improve and improve. He’s playing about as well as a guy with his skills and athleticism is ever going to play. Still, his ceiling is some pretty good basketball, and if we got the chance to turn Randolph into a consistently good and polished young player making similar money, we’d have to do it.
Biedrins for expiring contracts: A ludicrous, disastrously horrible deal for us. We have a 23-year-old center who’s one of the best rebounders and most efficient scorers in the league, a guy who passes fairly well and defends decently, given the horrible positions we put him in… he is somewhere between the 8th and 12th best team in basketball. This center makes a flat $9M per through the end of 2014. Even acknowledging his health issues (which are worrying but far from career-threatening), how do you look at five years and $45 million of Andris Biedrins and say, “thanks, but no thanks”? This half of the deal negates the benefits of Lopez-for-Randolph several times over.
Your argument is that we could then use the cap space to grab a four. Based on cap projections, we’d have $6-9 million available, not $9-11 million… $6-9 probably won’t land David Lee, who’s likely to remain a Knick. Maybe you get a Scola, but what’s the point, exactly? He’s a good player but not a star, and he turns 30 in the spring. We’re going to punt on a Randolph/Biedrins tandem for a shot at assembling a Scola/Lopez tandem, which is older with vastly less upside? Maybe Wright takes over for Scola, but then he could do that for Randolph if AR busts… Wright’s ours either way. And then Lopez gets expensive in 2012; not likely you’ll be able to keep him on a below-market deal like the one Biedrins has.
I just don’t see it. Brook Lopez is a good player, possibly a better player than Biedrins. The difference between him and Biedrins is not large, and Lopez is not going to evolve much from here. I agree with you that Anthony Randolph may never figure it out, but you don’t cost yourself the chance to find out for an upgrade this small, not when your team has only middling cap space and no appeal to free agents. This is pure “grass is greener” stuff… it’d be a horrible trade for us.
The difference between him and Biedrins is not large, and Lopez is not going to evolve much from here.
I disagree with this completely. Lopez is a legit 7 footer, capable of holding his ground against more bigs than Biedrins. He is a complete all around player with a high basketball IQ. He can hurt you in the pick and roll, in the post, and from 18 feet.
Offensively, the difference between Biedrins and Lopez is vast. Defensively it is much much closer, Biedrins is quicker and better suited to defending the pick and roll while Lopez is more suited to defend the post. I also think that it is unfair to say that Lopez isn’t going to evolve much from here on out. It is his second year in the league, so he still has plenty of time to learn and grow as a player.
To me, the trade is easier to accept because I see Lopez as a much better player than Biedrins, both now and in the future.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
He can hurt you from anywhere ...
But if you had one player taking a shot, Biedrins is more likely to score.
Andris does struggle against some of the power bigs, like Bynum.
Brook is still developing (and I can’t imagine he’s available) but calling the difference between them “vast” is mistaking pretty for effective. I like Lopez as a player, so I’m not badmouthing him. I like what he does well a lot. But he’s nowhere close to the rebounder Andris is, and he shoots more but is less effective doing it.
This doesn’t mean I think Biedrins is better, but I think the gap is a lot smaller than you’re making it out to be.
But if you had one player taking a shot, Biedrins is more likely to score.
That’s slightly misleading. Yes, Biedrins is more efficient. However, if you need one shot, I’d rather have Lopez taking it over Biedrins.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions
When I say that Lopez isn’t going to evolve much from here, I actually mean it as a compliment. I watched the guy at Stanford, and it was obviously why he lasted till the thirteenth pick in the draft: as a young center, it was likely that he was going to take some time to reach his ceiling, and he didn’t have the athleticism to make you think that that ceiling was super-high.
He proved half of that completely wrong. He was a polished, sophisticated player from day one, in all the ways that you mention. He’s incredibly versatile on offense, he knows how to defend the post… he’s very good. He was as good in ‘08-’09 as the Nets hoped he’d be in ‘10-’11. That’s credit to him and, as you say, his basketball IQ.
But that only reinforces the second theory about him going into the draft: that his ceiling wasn’t quite sky-high. Big men go from “good” to “great” when they learn some peripheral skills: sophisticated post moves, free throws, working the pick-and-roll, stuff like that. Lopez is already doing that stuff. Other than passing out of the post, there isn’t a single advanced skill that he lacks. What he lacks is the stuff you can’t learn — hops, speed and quickness. So other than passing, how is Lopez going to get better?
Of the two centers, the one with the obvious ways to improve is Biedrins. If he could perfect an eight-foot hook shot, if he could cut down on his fouls, if he could learn to make a jumper or free throw to save his life, he could take a big step upwards, from “very good” to “great”. Do I expect him to? Not at all, but it’s more plausible than Lopez magically gaining the athleticism to close the rebounding gap between the two.
Lopez is like a young baseball player who can do everything already — draw a few walks, steal a couple bases at a high percentage, field their position effectively — but doesn’t show the potential to bust out a .600 SLG or .420 OBP or brilliant fielding year at any point. He’s already doing the extra things that are supposed to put you over the top; his core skills just don’t lend themselves to true greatness. There is absolutely value in a guy like Lopez, and I’m sure the Nets are delighted that they found him. But he is not likely to get dramatically better from here. He is not likely to ever be dramatically better than Andris Biedrins.
Lopez is still capable of getting better through his IQ. Steve Nash and Tim Duncan have never been high caliber athletes, but they have nonetheless improved their games over their career through learning the game and knowing how to be crafty. Right now, Lopez has a ton of finesse and post moves, but he can still learn more about the game and how to take advantage of every situation.
I’m no expert, but I’m pretty sure Biedrins has reached his limit. So while the gap may not be super huge right now, I think it will only continue to get bigger.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
Duncan has improved?
The guy shot the highest percentage of his career as a rookie. He was within half a board of his career average per 36 as a rookie. His assist numbers have definitely improved, but really, that’s about it. The guy came into the league with a phenominal basketball IQ.
Nash is a more difficult case, but it seems like some of his “improvement” came from playing with a coach who understood the best way to use him.
The biggest improvements from Duncan are his turnover and foul rates, which are now astoundingly low considering how often he has the ball in his hands and the position he plays.
Man, it’s really scary how good Duncan is looking at all his career stats…
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 1, 2009 1:12 AM PST up reply actions
Please...
Some of the names on that list are absolute jokes.
If Bochy coached the Warriors Bengie Molina would start every game at PG.
by cybermaldonado on Nov 30, 2009 6:36 PM PST up reply actions
It would be just like the Warriors to
go out and acquire a win now talent. Wouldn’t it? haha.
It would be just like them to have one foot in two different door steps.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Riley loves the celtics
he’s said in numerous interviews if he could he’d love to do that w/ warriors. i’m always fearful he’ll get us the poor man’s big 3…..
jermaine oneal, corey maggette, Michael Redd
Even if those three were on a team together, they would never play a single game with each other because at least one of them would be injured.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
We need improve at the SF or PF/C
If we are going to keep the Ellis-Curry-Morrow-Bukie-Maggette rotation for the outside the next years, we can´t go on with the Randolph-Biedrins combo for the inside, is not good enough since Randolph could need 2/3 more years to develop. We need trade Biedrins+espirings+picks to get a Amare/Bosh/Gasol big type. Right now we are putting high pressure on Randolph and that is not good for him.
The other possibility is to get better at SF. If we could get a near-AllStar level SF we would be more competitive by far. The problem is we are paying Maggs for that, and now we cant move his contract or get a better player in his position. Imagine this team with a Caron Butler, Iguodala or Turkoglu instead of Maggs…
I’d rather have Maggette than Turkoglu. Maggette scores at a much higher rate, and does so more efficiently. He’s a much better rebounder. He’s at least as good (and possibly better) defensively.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions
i’d call him better defensively. he’s not great in that regard, but hedo is pretty close to awful.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Yeah that’s what I think too, but I decided to give Hedo the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
Ok, I'm with you on half of this.
1. I think we need an upgrade at the C, and SF positions (in that order).
My reasoning is that Biedrins is a good player. He just will never be able to handle Bynum, Oden, Howard or any other big with size. And that’s just my own opinion. He’s too light still and has more of a body for the PF position (which he was originally drafted for). I am not advocating replacing AB, he is still our best rebounder, and pick n roll player. I’d love to draft Cole Aldrich to be honest with you. He’s got size, rebounding, shot-blocking ability, a post game, and an 18 foot slingshot style jumpshot. He’d be a great backup for AB throughout his rookie contract. And when the time comes to extend or not, we can make that decision then.
Another big I’d love to go after is Tiago Splitter, or as you might know, the Spurs’ first round pick in 08’. This guy could come over in a year or two but he is highly skilled on offense. He’s got good size at 7 feet. This, however is a pipe dream since I don’t think the Spurs would hand over an asset like they did with Luis Scola (and for about half a season, Beno Udrih).
SF is the only other realistic spot I think we should improve. We have a glut of wing players however with Corey, Azu and Morrow all capable of seeing time at the 3 spot. What we don’t have is a guy that can create for others. Since Jack left, we have room for a playmaking 3 guard/forward. Ideally I’d love Evan Turner, but he may be a top 3 pick. I’d pass on Turkey Glue since his contract is just not something the Warriors would take on at this point. Caron is playing like he’s Stephen Jackson, or so i’ve heard. I’d pass on him now. Igoudala is an interesting candidate, but I don’t think Philly and GSW match up well as trade partners. Plus I don’t think Dre is the one they should trade (CoughBrandCough).
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
How many centers in the mold of Bynum, Oden and Howard do you see in the league?
Biedrins would benefit more if we played with a more traditional offense. When healthy this season, he was playing with four guards on the floor most of the time. Give him someone that can help on D and rebounding and he probably has better stats.
There is a reason why quite a few teams are looking for bigs, so why would we give up one of ours.
you think?
Biedrins would benefit more if we played with a more traditional offense. When healthy this season, he was playing with four guards on the floor most of the time.
most his baskets come by beating the opposing center down, and his rebounds are slightly inflated if only because we play often 4 swing players and biedrins so he’s only player in post to get a rebound.
Are his numbers really inflated?
most his baskets come by beating the opposing center down, and his rebounds are slightly inflated if only because we play often 4 swing players and biedrins so he’s only player in post to get a rebound.
I’m curious if this actually inflates a player’s stats.
I think you could argue the opposite – that it makes rebounding harder, because he doesn’t get help blocking out the other team’s rebounders from other big men. He ends up rebounding 1-on-2 or 1-on-3 a lot more. He’s not “competing” with his teammates for rebounds, but he’s also not cooperating with them to control the other team’s rebounders (and the easiest way to get a rebound is to have everyone on your team effectively block out their man).
People say it all the time, but I haven’t actually seen any evidence that rebounding numbers get inflated in the way you state. That being said, if you have any evidence to back up that assertion, I’m happy to see it .
by Ronaldinho on Nov 30, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
well as a team we were grossly out-rounded last season, which speaks to our lack of rebounders on the floor. Let’s assume you’re right and its not inflated because of lack of competing bigs on his own team….. That still doesn’t take away from my point he’s horribly limited offensively, and he’s below average low post defender. I’m not saying trade him for eduardo najera and a can of lysol. But as our best big and being young, he’s our most tradeable asset for a better big.
BTW Just went to Milan, saw your namesake play. Shadow of his former self, but his touch is still second to none.
Maybe "limited" offensively, but not "horribly limited" ...
The guy scores 12 points a game at an incredibly efficient rate. That’s not “horribly limited.”
Calling somebody horribly limited implies that there are dozens of players who can do what he can’t, but there really aren’t, and very very few of them score at anywhere close to Biedrins’ efficiency.
To piggy back on what Ronaldinho has already stated, you also have to consider the number of rebounds he loses because his teammates do not block out their man and he has to try and tip the ball to a teammate when fighting for a rebound with multiple opponents going after the ball.
Another big would probably offset any lose in his RPG by giving him more one on one situations.
Well, i am really tired of the young guys. I’ rather trade our pick for that PF/C than take another player who needs 1-2-3 years to develop. I think we already have enough young guys in Curry-Randolph-Morrow-Wright… Ellis and Biedrins are young too. As Riley says, we need vets and start winning.
So, no Cole Aldridge for me. Splitter is a poor man Biedrins in my opinion. A hard worker. I dont know his official size but I can watch him every week in ACB and he is not taller than AB.
Butler, Iggy or Turk were examples, I know we cant trade for them.
Trade Machine is messed up
But I really think the Raptors are going to be trading Bosh soon. With how poorly they are doing with what is supposed to be a great roster, I doubt Bosh will stay in the long haul so the Raptors will have to trade to get something out of losing him.
I really hope we try to pursue Bosh. Every player on our team should be considered in the trade (except Monta). I think Bosh would consider coming to GSW to play along side Monta and he’d love our fast paced team with tons of outside shooters.
That being said, I think Andris + Fillers would be the best possible route to trying to get him. Andris would fit in Toronto well, and they really love their Euro players there! I suggest Andris + Speedy + Wright/Buki/Turiaf. The Raptors would be getting a talented big man that can ‘replace’ Bosh, and one of three role players in Buki/Wright/Turiaf as well as a decent expiring contract.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Biedrins has to be healthy first.
Toronto’s problem is that they suck at defense. Calderon as a defender might as well just set up shop on the other side of the court. Also, Bargs and Bosh is a terrible fit imo.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Would Bosh stay?
I think if we got over a 50% chance, we take it… its a gamble, but maybe he gets along w/ monta. Sees the potential of them teaming up w/ morrow, curry, and others
What if...
We got a PF that was defensive and rebound oriented. A Paul Milsap kind of guy. Maybe Chris Hunter can be that guy? Personally, with all of our scoring and driving, I feel like an inside presence offensively will just clog the lane for players like Monta and Kelenna getting to the hoop, a la Shaq in Cleveland. Instead of giving up two really good players to get a Chris Bosh, I would prefer that we just play Chris Hunter (or insert better but PF here, but still not a star), 25-30 minutes a night to provide a defensive presence. I would love this kind of lineup:
PG: Curry/Watson
SG: Monta/Azubuike
SF: Morrow/VladRad
PF: Hunter/Randolph
C: Biedrins/Turiaf/Moore
just my 2 cents…
Hmmm…a PF that can play defense and rebound. Let me check the stats, but I’m pretty sure we already have a guy that can pull down ~11.5 rebounds per 36 and block 2 shots per 36, with the kind of freaskish athleticism/length that generally makes a good defender. Yep. Anthony Randolph. Check. Granted, we could use some post D – our guys are all too skinny, but if Randolph starts figuing some things out, he gives us those things you’re looking for…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
I agree, BUT...
Right now he cant consistently give us 35 MPG as a defensive PF for myriad reasons…
1) he’s way too small. watching the game against the Lakers demonstrated why Randolph is not our starting PF. We get destroyed by players like Gasol, Amar’e, etc., with Randolph playing. Hes a great help defender, and a formidable SF defender. But can he on a nightly basis provide 30-35 minutes of defense against the garnett’s and duncans of the league? I sure don’t think so.
2) even if he could, he still can’t stay in a game that long, guarding that kind of a player, unless the NBA changes their foul limit rules.
3) If we’re going to commit to a defensive PF, they need to not turn the ball over. While Randolph is extremely talented offensively (at times), he still turns the ball over a ton. With Monta and Curry averaging >6 turnovers a game, we can’t afford for our defensive minded PF to turn it over 3 times a game as well….
I love Randolph. I’m one of his biggest fans. But right now, I have to side with Nellie and Smart: he is not our answer at the PF position. He is 20 bball IQ points away from being our SF, and 20 pounds away from being our PF, but right now, he is neither.
Leave the Lakers out of the Equation.
No one is going to match up well with the Lakers as currently constructed. They are THE best team in the NBA.
Randolph is not going to go against the elite players night in and night out so it depends on how he does against the rest of the league. I think if the Warriors show him some patience when he is on the floor with some constructive coaching from the sidelines, he may be able to grow into the player we need now rather than 2-3 years down the line.
This isn't about the Lakers
It’s about big PFs. Randolph can’t guard them. Let’s look at the other 29 starting PFs in the league, and see if Randolph can effectively guard them for 35 minutes a night, without fouling out:
Kevin Garnett – No chance.
Chris Bosh – AR wouldn’t die, as Bosh is scrawny and spreads the floor, but he would still kill Randolph in the post.
Elton Brand – The way he’s playing now, AR would be fine. But if Brand ever gets anywhere NEAR his all-star form, he’s far too big for Randolph.
Danillo Gallinari – Fine
Tony Battie – Fine
Anderson Varejao – Fine, though would have problems with pick and roll
Ersan Ilyasova – Fine
Troy Murphy – Fine
Taj Gibson – Fine
Jonas Jerebko – Fine
Rashard Lewis – Trouble, but size wise, okay.
Josh Smith – Bad news bears
Michael Beasley – Fine
Boris Diaw – Eh
Antawn Jamison – dead
Kenyon Martin – fine
LaMarcus Aldridge – Problems
Carlos Boozer – Yikes
Jeff Green – fine
Kevin Love – At times he’d just be too big
Amar’e Stoudamire – Bandaids, please.
Pau Gasol – Kid vs. Son
Jason Thompson – eh
Blake Griffin – Step aside, AR, you won’t be in the poster that way…
Dirk Nowitzki – Good matchup, but Dirk is still too much.
Tim Duncan – Ha. that’s a funny one.
Luis Scola – Too. Much. Weight (and hair)
David West – Ugh.
Zach Randolph – makes anyone look like a good defender.
And there we have it. Randolph is just too small to guard legit PFs WITHOUT FOULING OUT. Half of the PFs in the league are too big for him, forget about offensive talent. Of the “Big 6” (Cleveland, Atlanta, Orlando, Boston, Phoenix and LA), I’m only comfortable with AR guarding one of those PFs (Varejao).
again, I repeat: I LOVE anthony randolph. Absolutely love the kid. But right now, unless he puts on a LOT of weight, I have no confidence that he can be our starting PF and guard these players on a night-in, night-out basis, effectively, without fouling out.
That is just my opinion. I am not Rush Limbough – If you disagree with me, by all means, I pray that you are right. I very, very, very much hope that I am completely wrong, and you are right. I would be ecstatic if Randolph can competently fit the role of PF on this team. I’m just not optimistic about it.
Randolph has to learn how to defend bigger players, yes ...
But he’s a young guy, who’s clearly still learning the game. Defending a larger player is one of the hardest things to do in basketball.
Let’s give him a chance to learn before we give up on him.
But the problem is
He hasn’t shown glimpses of being able to defend large players. He’s been a great help-defender and SF defender, but at his size, I don’t think it’s physically possible for him to be an adequate defender against large PFs….again, not trying to be cynical, but in a league based so much on size and athleticism, I just don’t forsee him being able to give up 40lbs on a nightly basis and still playing solid defense in the post.
He’s been a great help-defender and SF defender, but at his size, I don’t think it’s physically possible for him to be an adequate defender against large PFs
I agree about his help defense, but I can’t really agree with the rest. His perimeter defense hasn’t impressed me. I’ve actually been happier with his interior D. Sure, he is giving up a lot of size at this point, and he makes more than his share of mistakes, but I tend to think that he will naturally be a better interior defender as his career progresses.
Let’s not forget that he is pretty strong for how thin he is. KG never let being skinny stop him from being a good defender in the post. I’m not saying he’ll end up as good as KG, but I don’t think you can rule out him being a decent defender at the four spot just because he has a slight build.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
I don’t think he’s a great perimeter defender, but I think he’s more fit to guard large SFs, like Kevin Durant, than large PFs like Amar’e Stoudemire.
I’m not sure that I agree that he’s been good interior. He has, again, as a helper, but one-on-one? He’s had some decent plays, but he fouls so incessantly, and plays more to block his opponent’s shot than to make the shot difficult.
Quick correction...
I never said I thought he’s been a good interior defender, I just said that I think his ability lends itself more to guarding PF than wings. You are correct that he still has tons of issues with his interior D.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
I doubt he'll be giving up 40 lbs three years from now
Seriously, he’s listed at 6-10, 205, which is crazy thin.
But, more to the point, you can do a lot with technique, defensively, if you understand what you’re doing, know how to hold your position, etc.
Now, I don’t know if Randolph will ever learn that. I’m not sure if he’s getting adequate instruction (I suspect he isn’t) and I’m not sure that he’s the quickest learner even when he is.
I don’t know what a “glimpse” of being able to do it would look like, really.
is this serious?
you act like he can gaurd alot of these guys. Last I checked Jason Thompson (who is pretty mediocre) tore him up.
I don’t think that’s a fair list at all. A lot of those guys you listed that would beat Randolph wouldn’t beat him because of their size, they’d beat him because they’re good. Dirk wouldn’t be posting Randolph up. Aldridge? Really? Doesn’t worry me at all. Boozer? Yeah, he gives most players problems. Josh Smith? Really, really not worried. Rashard Lewis? All he can do is shoot. How does it get better than an athlete as long as Randolph to guard that? Trouble with Varejao on the pick and roll? Varejao? Really? Varejao has 0 offensive game whatsoever. Bosh and Garnett? Sure, they’d tear him up because they’re good, but not because they’re bigger and going to destroy him at the rim.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions
I disagree. Boozer and Aldridge, they make their moves by muscling their opponent, then using a finesse move. If Boozer can score well on KG, DH12, etc., by backing them down, imagine him going to work on AR for 35 minutes. rashard uses his size more than people realize; against mismatches, he usually backs his man down before turning and fading. Having 20 pounds on Randolph, he would eat him up on 10 foot jumpers.
Varejao has no offensive game, true, but he runs the pick and roll very well, and Randolph is a giant liability in that aspect.
Sure, great offensive players are going to get their points against anyone, but we need our PF to be like Monta was against Roy the other day. Yeah, BRoy’s going to get his 18 points, but Monta made him work for them. Yeah, bosh is going to get 25 against whomever he plays against, but it’s going to be easy against AR, and that’s not what we need.
I really disagree on this point. Guys like Lewis and Aldridge, eventually, are going to end up taking mid range jumpers. Boozer is different and scores around the rim – and guarding that is Randolph’s weakness. I do think Boozer would tear Randolph up, but as you pointed out, he does that to a lot of players, sometimes you just do what you can. Can’t match up against everyone. As for Lewis and Aldrige, though, I can’t think of a better matchup for a long skinny athlete like Randolph. Contesting midrange jumpers is easy. If they can’t get to the rim against him (something they’re not good at doing), he’s going to really challenge their shots. I also wouldn’t say Varejao runs the pick and roll well as much as he gets to run it for Lebron….
Randolph is in his second year, he’s 20 years old, expecting him to lock down the best big men in the league the way Monta did with Roy is just unrealistic. Give him some time to put on a bit of weight (20 year olds tend to do that) and learn defense, and he should be fine, even if he’s not awesome in the Garnett mold. I’m not worried. He does need to work on his fouls, but I don’t think he’s a huge liability at the moment against most teams, and he should get better over time.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
Fair enough
like I said, I hope you’re right. I really, really do.
I guess I just don’t expect him to be good already. I don’t know he’s going to end up being good at guarding guys down low any more than you know he’s going to be bad, I just think we should be patient and give him a chance. Plus, ultimately it’s unlikely we’re going to match up well with everyone, so I don’t mind having a guy as long and athletic as Randolph – I think that gives him a good chance of being able to match up with most guys, kind of the way KG can.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
And there we have it. Randolph is just too small to guard legit PFs WITHOUT FOULING OUT.
The problem with this analysis is that it’s based on pure assumption — you just figure the guy couldn’t defend bigger players. The truth is, Randolph has been defending bigger players, and defending them pretty decently. His foul rates are high, but not abnormally so for a young guys. Look at all the advanced stats you want… there is no evidence that Anthony Randolph is a bad defender. And he had to be defending some of these guys, right?
It doesn’t matter if it LOOKS like he can defend big guys… it only matters if he can. So far the answer seems to be yes.
I agree he doesn’t match up well with a lot of guys due to his size, but I wouldn’t say half the teams in the NBA have a PF that is too big for him. I guess it would depend on what you mean by big. Size wise, Randolph is going to be on the losing end of a lot of those battles, but I think given a chance, he can defend and hold his own on a good number of the above mentioned PF’s.
I voted no. Look, our bigs are hurt. Given our situation, yes, we need an upgrade. If we lived in a perfect world, Biedrins, Turiaf, Randolph and Wright would be healthy, and I really like that core moving forward. Unfortunately, we’re Warriors fans, so of course it’s not that easy. Not only does being hurt mean they can’t be productive for us, but it also means they don’t have much trade value. So what are we going to do? I’m not sure what we can do, it’s just a bad situation. Hard to trade injuries for talent. I’m hoping we get healthy, because again, I like our core of big men and think they have a productive future (if healthy) ahead of them.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 1:12 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
+1
That four-man nucleus at the four and five is actually the most promising aspect of our team. The injury troubles are vexing, both now and going forward, but it is not time to press reset on those guys just because we’re losing.
Damn it Wright!
I bet he would have easily been the starting PF this year, giving us 30+mpg if he wasn’t injured… He may still be the PF of the future…
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions
Seriously, we could have been paying a max deal to a F/C that barely gets more than 7 boards every 36 minutes!
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions
Hahaha
CJ Watson and good reserve player were just in the same sentence in this post, hahaha that was a good one.
Glen Davis????
C’mon. Fat centers can’t start consistently, especially on a fast paced team. They get hurt, and they slow down the rest of the team. Think about Shaq on the Suns, Kenny Thomas, Robert Traylor, or our own Vic Alexander. Bulk is nice, especially off the bench when you need it (see Antoine Carr), but Glen Davis is as far from the answer as we can be. Besides, did you hear his post championship locker room interview? The guy’s a moron.
Also, Glen Davis is a terrible basketball player by NBA standards.
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
but, but, but…he hit that one big shot in the playoffs that everyone saw!
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
We already have a guy that looks like he wants to cry all the time, we don’t need one that actually does it.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
Since the OP says to make trades here are some
I cooked up
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yj886zw
Toronto
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yglc8t5
Nets
by A'Seahawks_Warriors on Nov 30, 2009 4:15 PM PST reply actions
Trade machine links have been broken for a while now… you have to list it manually for us to see them : \
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
How about Gortat?
I don’t think a lot of people have seen what he can do, but is on a great contract if we could snag him from ORL.
by Yoshi on Nov 30, 2009 4:20 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Easy solution to any problem...
sign Rob Kurz and make a move for Kwame Brown or Darko Milicic.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Nov 30, 2009 4:38 PM PST reply actions
Kwame + Darko
I can imagine fitz right now! Warriors boasting a front court of a #1 and #2 draft pick!
Lol at everyone starting to hate on AR
He’s 20 and we knew he would have issues and is still very raw. I think we maybe the most bi polar fanbase in the NBA.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
In Nelly's system, big men dont score
We have to realize that Nellie’s system dont center around big men. AB/Tu role in the team is to collect rebound, be a physical stop at the center, and run w/ the team. I dont think any others big men in the league can do better than AB/Tu. If there are, teams would not trade unless there would be a dramatic improve to their roster (salary or basketball wise). What Randolph needs to do now is to play pick and roll with the guard, get ready for the ball, finish at the rim, dont turn the ball over, and play good defense. If he badly wants to score, learn to shoot 3s like Radman (I dont think this ever gonna happen).
Bottom line, I vote no. Let’s wait till the big guys return because we have all the pieces in Nellie’s ball: rebounder-AB, blocker-Turiaf, postmove-Wright, athletic-Randoph, Moore and Hunter can be sub for now.
In Nelly's system, big men dont score
That isn’t really true… We just don’t have big guys that are more talented offensively than our guards.
Nellie doesn’t want big guys in there just for rebounding. I bet ideally he would want 5 guys that could score from anywhere.
Notable big men that scored under Nellie: Chris Webber, Dirk Nowitzki.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 30, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
trade to make more bad trades
hey wake up and smell the coffee. we have already traded or let go a playoff team and now there gone and what do we have to show for it? do we have to wait another 20 years to make the playoffs?
by sports with steve on Nov 30, 2009 11:13 PM PST reply actions
we have already traded or let go a playoff team and now there gone and what do we have to show for it?
Sigh. We have a bunch of young talent and we don’t have our wagon hitched to the trainwreck that is Baron Davis. That’s what we have to show for it. Don’t act like keeping that team that made the playoffs around was possible forever. It was not. We gave them another shot the next season and they didn’t even make the playoffs. Let it go.
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 7:31 AM PST up reply actions
2012?
wife says what is this 2012 movie about? i say its about the warriors, raiders and a’s can open there eyes! lol!
by sports with steve on Nov 30, 2009 11:17 PM PST reply actions
Biedrins is a joke²
someone erased my previous comment, so here it is!
Andris Biedrins is a JOKE! even earl boykins can box him out of the boards, LOL!
=Gaucho=
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