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The case for packaging Turiaf and Jack for Big Z and JJ

Cleveland is not going to part with Z without getting a big in return, and rightly so. Every other legit championship caliber team is loaded with big-time big men, and there is really no chance they could win it all without at least two (even then I think they will have a lot of trouble dealing with the Lakers, Magic, and Celtics frontlines). We all want to get rid of Cap'n Crack, but we know the only way to do it is to give away Turiaf as well. Most diarists on this site have balked at the suggestion, but what follows is the case for making this deal happen.

 

Argument One: Trading Jack will only be harder over the course of the next 2-3 seasons (until he becomes an expiring or near-expiring contract). The convergence of talent at the top of the league this season is unprecendented. With every top-tier team reloading, the time is now to cash in on the insecurity of a team that has come tantalizingly close to a championship in recent years, and recognizes that their window may be closing. Getting an expiring contract for Jackson is only going to get more difficult after this season. The prospect of trading a disguntled Jack for contracts that are the same length or longer than his current one is just too depressing to contemplate.

 

Argument Two: Turiaf is a role player, and perhaps a solid backup, but nothing more. I love the guy, really I do. His game is exciting and he brings a lot of energy, but what does he really do for us that we couldn't replace? He is not a good post defender nor is he a particularly good rebounder. He blocks a lot of shots, but we have Randolph, Biedrins, and (next year) Brandon Wright (who I maintain is going to be a very good player and will ultimately make us glad we got him). He does not have good hands, and with a team featuring Curry and Ellis, two guards who like to slash and dish, as well as an offense that features (or ought to feature) lots of high pick and rolls, this is a serious liability. Mikki Moore can easily replace Turiaf in the rotation for this year, and he may actually be an upgrade in several key areas.

 

Argument Three: Getting rid of Jackson needs to be the number one priority for this team, and contrary to popular opinion I actually think this trade would make us better, not worse, immediately. Azubuike and Morrow need playing time, and only Jackson's departure will allow that to happen in a way that doesn't hurt us (playing Buike at the 3 and Jack at the 4, for example)

Addendum to Argument Three: Acquiring Big Z is not going to make us any better. If he comes here, he won't be playing for us. The guy is just about done with his career, and there is no way he wants to play out the string with us. Hickson, on the other hand, is a guy who might actually be able to help us (at the very least he gives another option at PF). He is barely playing in Cleveland, and I really doubt they would be unwilling to part with him.

 

So there you have it. Comments please.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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I understood that a Jackson trade is not likely to make us much better, but my hope is that it at least doesn’t make us SIGNIFICANTLY worse like this deal would. If we’re not getting anything out of Z as everything I’ve seen about a deal w/Cleveland would suggest I’m personally really against this deal. You answered it in your own post. Hickson is not playing very much, the reason is not because he is really good. You don’t play in the NBA because you’re coach doesn’t think you’re very good. We’d basically be losing two major rotation guys and be adding some guy named J.J HIckson who probably isn’t all that great. Lets set our sights a little higher and not pull the trigger on a deal like this until we are really really desperate.

by MO-ped MO-problems on Nov 4, 2009 10:57 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

How does this make us “significantly worse?” From my perspective the only thing we lose is Jackson’s (overrated) defensive abilities. We also lose a lot of turnovers, a horrible contract, and a festering cancer.

Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!

by Supafishal on Nov 4, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+ 1

I like the trade. Getting rid of Jackson’s upcoming three years of contract would be great.

Agreed about Turiaf. Hard not to really like the guy and his ability to run the floor, pass to open teammates and overall energy fits well with the Warriors. However, he’s a poor rebounder, and a career sub, who is not going to get any better than he is now. Hickson is 5 years younger (only 21), and while he may not amount to much, at least has the potential to be a better player.

And Big Z was a good player last season, his inability to guard Dwight Howard in the playoffs, not withstanding. he would automatically be the Warriors third best rebounder (after Randolph and Beidrins). Nelson would love his ability to space the floor, he can still guard non-athletic post guys and he would hopefully stop Miki Moore from getting playing time.

And mostly get rid of Jack, so Nelson doesn’t have the option to play him 40 minutes a game, and his minutes can go to Morrow, Buike, Randolph (Jack has been playing some 4) and eventually Wright. Warriors can only get better with giving those guys more playing time, not with giving Jax and Miki Moore more playing time.

by San Francisco Slim on Nov 5, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Giving up Turiaf creates a problem ...

… which is that we now only have two big bodies, and you really need at least three guys, preferably four, who you’re comfortable with manning the two big spots.

But Turiaf is a career backup and I can definitely see getting rid of him to get rid of Jack.

Right now it seems like Nellie doesn’t want to play a traditional lineup, which sucks, and my main fear is I don’t want to trade too much big-man talent such that nobody but Nellie could coach this team, since I think/hope he’s gone after this year.

by Ronaldinho on Nov 4, 2009 11:15 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

With his proposal, we would have 3 big bodies still… We’re just swapping Turiaf for Hickson. Hickson is probably a better rebounder than Turiaf, but he is pretty much worse at everything else. The good news is that he is young. I’d only do the trade if we got Hickson.

by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 4, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My main quibble: Mikki Moore is worse than Turiaf in every possible way. Mikki Moore really, really stinks.

I don’t think Turiaf’s mission-critical, and if the choice was between the trade you describe and having to keep Jack indefinitely, I’d probably go with the trade. But we may be able to dump Jack without losing Ronny, and if we can do that, we should. Ronny’s a nice guy to have, all things being equal.

by onlxn on Nov 4, 2009 11:16 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Mikki Moore sucking…sure, but so do a lot of backup bigmen, the kind he will be playing against. I think he can be serviceable for this year.

It would be nice to get rid of Jack without losing Turiaf, but I have not seen a single realistic trade proposal that gets us an equivalent expiring contract NEXT year other than the Big Z move.

Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!

by Supafishal on Nov 4, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We should get a bit more trading flexibility in mid Dec. If its possible a deal can be made without Turiaf (I’m not sure that it can) its definitely worth the wait.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 4, 2009 11:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep. Of course, the risk is that the Cavs start playing so well that they decide trading for Jack isn’t worth the bother, something that I think is fairly likely. But even in that scenario, a team like the Hornets would probably still be desperate.

by onlxn on Nov 4, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think they are going to put much stock in their ability to beat teams not from Boston, Orland, and L.A. If those teams continue to beat them, they will still be “desperate” to improve.

Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!

by Supafishal on Nov 4, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d rather try to talk them into a Jack+Moore+expiring for Big Z (and maybe Powe or Hickson). We can’t make that deal until Moore is eligible to be dealt in mid december, but thats also right about the time Big Z could probably use a month off before returning to Cleveland.

But I’m not totally against giving up Turiaf to get rid of Jackson either.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 4, 2009 11:21 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I love Leon Powe and it would great to have him back in Oakland, but his knees are pretty much done.

Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!

by Supafishal on Nov 4, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope

Ronny is an ok rebounder its just everytime he is on the floor he has to worry about blocking shots and guarding the rim so no one can get an easy shot off

I'm in eighth grade give me a break

by Mike Fox on Nov 4, 2009 12:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 4, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I appreciate that you posted that, but I have no clue what it means

Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!

by Supafishal on Nov 4, 2009 4:42 PM PST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

This has been discussed quite a bit

Turiaf is just a below average reobounder. Its not because he’s worried about guarding the rim. While i do think its true that he often chases the blocked shot and pulls himself out of rebounding position it doesn’t mean he’s an ok rebounder who just has to worry about blocking shots and guarding the rime. Plenty of great shot blockers have managed to both protect the rim and rebound the ball well.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 4, 2009 7:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and if the choice is between blocking shots and getting rebounds, i’ll take the rebounds every time. blocked shots don’t always end the offense’s possession; a defensive rebound ends the possession every time (and there’s a lot more of them for the taking).

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Nov 4, 2009 10:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course you do the trade.

Even watching the win against Memphis, when Morrow and Rudy Gay were going at each other hard in the 3rd quarter, you’d see Curry with the ball drifting towards Morrow to set up the one on one play against Gay. The fans wanted it, Nellie wanted it, Morrow was set for a 30 point game, and then there’s Jackson on the weak side with one hand high in the air calling for the ball.

Any expiring deal to get rid of Jackson would be beneficial to the team, let alone getting back a player with the size and skill of big Z.

It seems the only time Jackson is interested in passing off the rock, is when it is immediately rewarded with an assist. How often do you see him pass out rather than dump it off under the rim? Whenever he catches the ball on the perimeter, he almost never looks left or right. He immediately gets low and activates the JACKSON OFFENSE. Not only is it irritating, but it disrupts his teammates from gaining a rhythm, something crucial for a young player to experience in order to achieve confidence. Go figure, all of our players are young.

How often do you see Jackson watching a match up develop off the ball, and then screaming and crying as hard as to does to the refs, to get a pass so he can set up a probable scoring scenario? How often do you see him demanding the ball for a rim chuck chuck? Rather cheeky, eh?

He’s going to have his 30 point games this season, sure. He’s going to jog back on defense with his hand up to his ear, reaffirming his status as an equal to Kobe in his Jacked head. But is he a good teammate? I don’t think so. Is it worth trading his talent vs. his style for a potential impact player for the 10-11 season, a worthy big man, and a smoother offense?

I’m no mathematician, but for every 10 points Jack gives you a game as much as he touches the ball, has got to be about 18 points Morrow would have. We really would not miss him on the offensive end. His defense is good when he’s motivated, terrible when he’s not getting calls, and non-existent when the teams playing poorly.(Which usually has much to do with him, anyway.)

by lilboots on Nov 5, 2009 3:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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