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Would you be opposed to trading Ellis?

Obviously we need to trade Jackson, I don't thin anyone is arguing that at all.  And I'm aware that in the NBA, unless you are the lakers and other teams want to give you players for nothing (Memphis w/Gasol), it is difficult to get someone to trade a productive big for a gaurd.  However based on the state of the team would you be willing to trade Ellis and some throw in for a productive big man?

Here are some names I've looked at just to throw it out there:

Boozer Utah

West NO

Bosh TOR

Randolph Mem

 

I know there are some issues with some of these guys:  Bosh and Boozer free-Agency, Randolph character guy.

But if you put a PF who averages 10+ rebounds a game next to Biedres and then can more AR to the 3 I think it makes this team look a lot better immediately, plus most of those guys can score well in the low post.

I personnally would be much more intersted to watch this lineup:

PG - Curry

SG - Morrow

SF - Randolph

PF - Any of the above mentioned

C - Biedres

Might have to give up anothe role player and an expiring contract as well if it would work at all.

Also Bosh has a player option for next year that based on cap and economy he might want to pick up at 17+ mil

But money wise none of these guys pose a long term problem if they don't workout.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Randolph? No way. Any of the other 3 and I’d be willing to discuss Monta, but I’d want some assurance the player would be likely re-sign or some other team to take on either Jackson or Maggette with Monta.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 9, 2009 10:30 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I was about to write similar thing.

IMO I wouldn’t be opposed to trading him at all. Him and Curry will never work. I think we overpaid for a undersized 2.

What about Monta + Biedrins 4 Gasol, Gay, Jaric (contract throw in)?

We may be giving up potential in Randolph. We will get a good young low post scorer who is rebounding well.

I think Memphis is conceding they won’t be able to resign Gay so there is possibility. Add to it, monta lit them up and the idea of monta, mayo might turn them on.

by tafkasam on Nov 9, 2009 10:37 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Thats at least a creative and interesting trade idea. I’d probably want Memphis to take at least one of Jackson or Maggette too (probably both). Gay isn’t really very good and somebody is going to overpay him very soon, I would prefer it not be us. While I like Gasol, I still think Biedrins is the better player. Biedrins is actually a year younger than Gasol and he’s been quite a bit better on the boards, turns the ball over less and I think his ability to rebound and put the ball on the floor once or twice to start the break is something we tend to overlook. Perhaps because Gasol is a bigger offensive threat Nelson would be more willing to play Randolph and Gasol together than he is Biedrins and Randolph together. That would pretty much negate the rebounding advantage Biedrins has.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 9, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gasol

This year has put up a great rebounding percentage. And while it should be noted its a small sample size, i do think he can be an above average rebounder in the nba. He’s making big strides in his overall game, blocking shots, passing, etc from last year. Some of it could be noted to weight loss and being in more NBA shape, some can be attributed to being a year more exerienced in the NBA game, and then some to age. But really, what gets me about him, is his refined post game.

We will not get any of the all star big’s. You must then consider the up and coming PFs and Cs who may be attainable in trade. IMO after Dwight Howard and Brook Lopez, Gasol is the best big under the age of 25. I prefer him to Al Jefferson and Bargnani and Biedrins.

As for Gay? He’s off to a great start. Will he keep it up? I’m not sure. I don’t think on the market this summer he’ll get a larger contract than maggette got. And there is something to say for a 23 year old athletic 6-9 SF, who is improving his game.

by tafkasam on Nov 9, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

cont'd

my point is, if the price became too high on gay, we could NOT sign him.

by tafkasam on Nov 9, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

which is why I would consider the deal if they took on one of our bad contracts. We’re not far apart on Gasol. I see him as right there with Biedrins, but slightly worse. You seem to rank him as slightly better, but I don’t think there’s a huge disagreement there. If you basically call that swap even I don’t think getting Gay is worth parting with Monta. I actually like watching Gay play a lot, but his stats indicate he hasn’t been a guy who will help his team win thus far in his career. To me, Monta is a significantly better player right now though Gay’s improved rebounding, offensive efficiency and the fact that he’s getting to the line more often are encouraging. But, like you said, small sample size and all that. The difference between those two makes me think Memphis would have to be willing to eat at least one of our bad contracts. Matching up with them is pretty difficult, even if we took on the expirings of Jaric, Hunter and Iverson they still arent shedding enough payroll to take on either Maggette or Jackson. Basically to make my idea work, we’d have to take Z-Bo back and they’d have to take both Jackson and Maggette. Then you have a deal with more than enough reasons there for both sides to hate it so I don’t think its real likely.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 9, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

3 points

1) The atmosphere in Golden State is poisonous. It shows with Monta IMO, lack of interest. Sometimes a lateral trade of players of same level can be a step forward cause its a fresh start

2) Defense matters. Gay isn’t great but he’s better than monta defensively. Second he has potential to be a MUCH better defender. Third it’ll let us not play an undersized backcourt

3) If Gasol’s production stays the same do you REALLY rate Biedrins as a better player? Both are bad defenders, but Biedrin’s really offers nothing offensively other than knowing his limitations. Our lack of a post game is appalling, having a player who can playt back to basket will be huge

by tafkasam on Nov 9, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

1) you’re right
2) you might be right, I havent watched Gay play defense enough to form much of an opinion about his abilities there. He gets a lot of steals and a fair number of blocks for a SF, but until this year he didn’t rebound his position very well…..
3) If Gasol’s rebound rate stays the same then, yea, he’s probably the better player. I really do like Biedrins’ ability to dribble the ball once or twice after pulling down the board and I think his passing has improved every year, but Gasol’s offensive abilities are probably more valuable.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 9, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I used to really want Rudy Gay.

But with this team we need a player that can do more than just create for himself. If Gay is coming in, then I wouldn’t be satisfies unless Corey and Jack are gone as well.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.

RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."

(MT)

by kenntoe on Nov 9, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I actually think Gay is a lot smoother athlete. I hated the way J-Rich would always go to the 2-foot plant for his explosive dunks. It always seemed like the best athletic basketball players (like Dr. J, Michael, Kobe, LeBron) would jump off one foot more often than not. It just seems quicker to the rim.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.

RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."

(MT)

by kenntoe on Nov 9, 2009 5:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

JRich was never a smooth athlete, that’s for sure. He was explosive as a jumper, but as you noted, he was always a 2 foot guy. And again, he was just never smooth when he moved…so yeah, his athleticism wasn’t the same as some of the other top dunkers.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

At least 2 of the Ball Hogs has to go:

C-Mag, Ellis, Jax

Welcome to the Warriors, Stephen Curry, the 2009 NBA Rookie of the Year.

Panda's and Curry in the Bey Area. Who would've known?

Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!

by ejdacanay on Nov 9, 2009 10:37 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Mags is most untradeable

and IMO possibly most valuable. Despite his gigantic contract, he is a very effective 6th man. As opposed to Monta and Jack who want to be stars and really aren’t

by tafkasam on Nov 9, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Buike can take over as 6th man

Maggs for Brian Cardinal and Mark Blount

Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"

by dubzfan on Nov 9, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not opposed to trading Monta at all. I just think now isn’t the best time – he’s still coming off the whole moped incident, we need to win a few games and let him get back into rhythm and start playing like we know he’s capable of playing to re-establish his trade value where it should be. Basically, if we can find a good deal for Ellis, great, go for it now, but I think we’d have to sell low on him now, so we should wait until he’ll bring back equal value.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 10:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Word, I don't forsee a trade till at least a month before the trade deadline.

Welcome to the Warriors, Stephen Curry, the 2009 NBA Rookie of the Year.

Panda's and Curry in the Bey Area. Who would've known?

Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!

by ejdacanay on Nov 9, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesnt Kings need someone?

I mean dont they still play that foul game. I didnt watch yesterday but last time I remember they won by going to the foul line a lot. Also since their two good players are out send them Mags because he would perfectly in their system. Trade him for kenny thomas. Same amount expiring.

by goaldenstateboy on Nov 9, 2009 10:55 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Doesnt Kings need someone?

After watching their youngsters play so well I kinda doubt they Kings need magette? Their chemistry looks like it’s developing great, why spoil it?

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 9, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Move Randolph to the 3? It appears that the “Randolph to the 3” psychosis simply will not die. Until he shows an ability to consistently knock down the jumper, something that the early returns on this season show him no more likely to do that he did last season, there is nothing, nothing, nothing at all that suggests that we’d be better off in such a situation.

Anthony Randolph is doing one thing well: he’s grabbing rebounds. Why again would you want to move him to a position where he won’t be using his greatest asset as frequently?

by jae on Nov 9, 2009 11:09 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

I agree wholeheartedly

In certain matchups he can play Center too

Welcome to the Warriors, Stephen Curry, the 2009 NBA Rookie of the Year.

Panda's and Curry in the Bey Area. Who would've known?

Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!

by ejdacanay on Nov 9, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. Randolph can hit open jumpers from mid-range when he’s wide open most of the time but when contested, he’s way off balance and far from consistent so he shouldn’t be played at 3 until he’s a bit more coordinated. Dudes’ 7 feet tall and the bottom line is that he needs to put on more weight so he stops getting pushed around so much down low and do more than just jump high and use his reach to grab boards. He’s got the “potential” to be a great 4 that moves like a 3 but he’ll always be “almost” a 3 even if he tries to become a 3.

by Throw up the Dub on Nov 9, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really...?

Randolph is rebounding well? Cause im positive thats the reason he isn’t playing. 2 rebounds last night. 2. In 22 minutes. Against garbage players! No this is bull, and i actually am in the few that agree with nelly on this one. While i want nothing more than to see randolph play, he is useless to us unless hes rebounding. We have scorers, we need defense and boards, we all know that. And taking his playing time is about all nelson can do to send a message. I dont want randolph on the court unless he is playing his role correctly.

Additionally, Scoring the ball is about all he is doing well. 5-9 FG and 4-4 FT last night are great numbers. His jumper is surprisingly consistent. I no longer cringe when he shoots. If BWright was healthy i would still be in the randolph to the 3 movement, but he isnt. So i am no longer pushing for that. I also cannot stand the idea of Randolph playing center for us. I think this may be the reason he is no longer rebounding well. He does not have the size to box out down low, and can no longer crash in the snatch them up.

Thats all i have to say, i am feeling sicker as i write each sentence, and have to go drink my self into a comma before tonights game. I hope we can turn things around soon, or else I might as well start watching college ball to see who we should draft with our #1 pick.

by Bleezy88 on Nov 9, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s naive and dangerous to draw conclusions from a small sample size.

Over the season, including last night’s game, he’s averaging a very, very good 11.5/36 which is ridiculously close to the 11.6/36 he averaged last season. That’s rebounding well. Very, very well.

by jae on Nov 9, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Monta isn't going anywhere!

He’s the face of this franchise, he deeply cares about winning and without a doubt is our best player. Sure if we could get someone like Bosh I’d trade him, but Toronto isn’t dumb. They didn’t go out and sign Turkoglu so they could trade Bosh. Don’t get me wrong if we can get value for Monta I’d do it, but I just don’t see that happening.

by JLopez on Nov 9, 2009 11:25 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think, nor do I want, Monta to go anywhere. He’s grown A LOT as a leader so far this season because no one else is doing it. Watch him closely during the games. He’s yelling at people and getting in people’s faces and showing some serious signs of leadership. He’s got a lot to work on but by no means do I want to see Monta anywhere else in the NBA than on the dubs.

by Throw up the Dub on Nov 9, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and without a doubt is our best player

it’s hard to win when your best player gives away on one end all what he gets on other

i doubt he is really great on any other aspect of game except scoring

it really says a lot about team when player like Monta is captain

30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ

by Lat We N Trash on Nov 9, 2009 11:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure Monta isn't a great Defender

but he’s added more than just scoring this year. He’s looking for his teammates more this year than in years past and he is crashing the boards harder this year as well. His D isn’t good, but I do see him giving more effort on the in that aspect of his game.

by JLopez on Nov 10, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

perhaps one of our problems, but not our only one.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 9, 2009 11:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd get rid of him ASAP.

Find a good deal that brings back a big player or multiple picks to get this guy out of here. He’s not a leader and he’s not a star. He’s a second fiddle scorer at best and his attitude is awful.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 11:42 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think Monta is the problem. He’s just not a pg. He’s probably not a #1 option either, but at least he isn’t paid like one. We just lack a lot of talent around Monta to make him look better.

If I were to make a list of available players it would go like this:

1. Stephen Jackson
2. Corey Maggette
3. CJ Watson (He has value and doesn’t seem like he wants to be here).

I would make everyone available except for Curry and Randolph.

But this would depend on how things go from here on out.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.

RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."

(MT)

by kenntoe on Nov 9, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree that those guys need to go.

I want to see Monta without Jack hanging around him and who knows he could get better, but def get rid of those 3.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why Would The Other Teams Do This Trade

Monte is a selfish, small two guard who isn’t smart and is not a leader..His trade value isn’t very much at this point..None of these trades make sense for the other team..

Monte isn’t as valuable as those guys other than maybe Randolph, and he is a worse headcase than Monte is..

Nobody really wants Monte for anyone good..

by The Sear on Nov 9, 2009 12:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Monte?

by jae on Nov 9, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve seen someone spell it “Montay.” Definitely can’t take any opinion too seriously when a player’s name is spelled incorrectly let alone a player on a team you root for. Earlier today I saw someone spell “Randolf.” Ugh.

by MO-ped MO-problems on Nov 9, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“Montay” I despise less as it’s at least a phonetic representation of a name that isn’t pronounced like it’s spelled. But “Monte” is a different name entirely that isn’t pronounced the same.

(It’s also an accepted 2 syllable nickname for Mike Montgomery and we should do as much as possible to forget him.)

by jae on Nov 9, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

my pet peeve is

Brandon Wright.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.

RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."

(MT)

by kenntoe on Nov 9, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No surprise here, a couple of losses so everybody focuses on the “lack of leadership” aspect. Funny how the perception of a players leadership ability seems to follow whether the team is winning and losing, instead of the other way around like the importance of leadership would imply…

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 12:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

He’s not a leader. its plain and simple. winning and losing has absolutely nothing to do with it. He does not bring this team together nor does he lead by example on or off the court. In basketball you are either a PG or you’re not and you’re either a leader or you’re not and he’s neither. It sucks that its so black and white, but in this sport that’s it is. If he was an actual leader he would have told Jack to shut up and play and would have embraced Curry right off the bat as an asset.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Monta may or may not be a leader, but I’m not sure that this franchise, in its current state, is a fair test of anybody’s leadership potential.

by onlxn on Nov 9, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Monta is never going to be a good enough player or good enough leader

To be the number one option and leader of playoff team contending for the championship, and maybe not even good enough to be the number one option on a consistent playoff team.

by freerandolph on Nov 9, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think anyone sees him as a #1 or future #1 option. He’s not a superstar. We know that. He’s still a good player, even guys like Kobe need a Gasol to win a championship, Duncan needed Manu and Parker…you don’t just give up on a 24 year old who has the talent to be a Parker-like impact player. That’s just not smart.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 6:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

if i can get good value for him and he’s going to hinder the development of the team then ill gladly trade him.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And as I said in my first statement, I’m not opposed to trading Monta. If we get an comparable player back that’s a better fit, that’s fine. I’m just strongly opposed to anything that involves a large loss in talent for the Warriors. That’s the kind of BS that happened with Webber, with Spre (though his situation was different because of the choking)….and those things set the franchise back years. Acquiring talent is important, and when you find it, you can’t just discard it because 5 games didn’t go very well.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 7:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree. i would love equal value for the guy, but its tough to say what that would be because he’s clearly not on par with a Bosh or Stoudemare at this point. talent is important, but leadership and chemistry is of greater importance because that’s how you win….The 5 games are very telling of how this season is going to go because they have already decided to quit and were in november. i dont see it getting better.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

See, tonight’s game is exactly why chemistry and leadership are non-factors. Did the Warriors play poor basketball the first 5 games of the season? Absolutely, if you want to call that a lack of leadership or chemistry, whatever. In one game we went from the far end of the spectrum of poor team play to the other end of fantastic team play – because these “chemistry”/“leadership” aspects aren’t real team factors that are useful for predicting the future. Talent is. They might be useful for explaining the past, but I simply do not believe they’re inherit traits for a team. Generally when it’s something that can change so dramatically as it just did…it’s because it’s not really a useful piece of information for judging future results.

As for your first part, I basically agree with that. Monta is definitely not as valuable as those guys because he isn’t as good of a player, AND he’s a combo guard as opposed to big man. He’s still good, though, and unless we really have good trading options, he’s part of our plans for at least the near future.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 9:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey MB

Speaking of talent and small sample sizes and tonight’s game… Anthony Morrow is now at 61% on the season from 3 (on the strength of 13-17, or 76%, in his four November games).

I mean, yes, very small sample size. But there are small sample sizes, and there’s the fact that in every sample size (college, both summer leagues, his rookie year, his preseason, his start to his sophomore year) Morrow seems to crowd 50% from three. Do you still think he’s likely to “regress significantly” from his rookie 46.7%, or are you more seriously considering the other option: that he’s one of the best three point shooters in NBA history?

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 9, 2009 10:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am starting to lean towards “he’s one of the top 3-5 shooters in the NBA” at the moment, but definitely not ready to start talking him having historical ability….

We’ll see.

by Missing Barry on Nov 10, 2009 7:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, in the case of 3-pointers, “historical” really means “Since 1979-80.” We’re only on the third or fourth “generation” of hoopsters since then. If Morrow is in the Top 3-5 of his generation (a distinction it’s getting more and more difficult to deny him) it’s not really that much of a stretch to call him one of the best ever. But yes, it’s still early days. Best to curb our enthusiasm, if only for the sake of good karma.

(On a side note, I loved Fitz’s point that it shouldn’t even count as an assist when you happen to be the player who swung it to Morrow beyond the arc…)

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 10, 2009 7:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d also like to rephrase “best” to “most accurate”. Volume counts, too.

by Missing Barry on Nov 10, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If he remains "most accurate"

He’ll move into the “best” category soon enough.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 10, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

completely disagree
In one game we went from the far end of the spectrum of poor team play to the other end of fantastic team play – because these "chemistry"/"leadership" aspects aren’t real team factors that are useful for predicting the future. Talent is. They might be useful for explaining the past, but I simply do not believe they’re inherit traits for a team. Generally when it’s something that can change so dramatically as it just did…it’s because it’s not really a useful piece of information for judging future results.

Between the Sacramento game and the Minnesota game the Warriors talent level did not change (except not having a hurt Beidrins.) Something clearly did change though, because the outcome was significantly different. One thing that changed was the opponent, which is clearly a huge factor. However, the style of play and attitude of players by all accounts also changed significantly. These changes strike me as very likely to be attributable to leadership – to someone stepping in and saying the right things to the right people and someone – maybe that same someone – making significant efforts to play the game differently and better.

Jackson clearly played a different game last night than I have ever known him to play. Monta was specifically credited with playing very energetic defense. The team hustled and cut and passed to the open man. Who spoke to whom and what prompted these changes and whether they will hold up are all open questions (Monta’s been talking about defense all year and has been identified as calling out teammates recently, so I could see it being him, but others on the team have the disposition and clout to do so as well) but I think this game is a clear demonstration that chemistry and attitude play a significant part in the outcome of games. You may see it as lack of effort, lack of ball movement, and/or lack of smart play, but if the same players show the ability to do these things successfully under other similar circumstances, you have to attribute the change to something. Leadership and chemistry are an explanation that clearly makes sense.

by toddaverth on Nov 10, 2009 11:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The teamwork definitely improved substantially. No question about it. Whether you want to call that chemistry or whatever, I don’t particularly care. But what makes you think someone had to have sat down and prompted this to happen, as much as players simply playing better? These guys know how to play winning basketball, they’ve all done it before, they simply got back to playing like they need to in order to win. Not being at midseason form 5 games into the season is understandable – for at least one game, they figured it out. I just don’t see how, if chemistry is some big factor some teams lack and some teams have, how a team can so dramatically change it from one game to the next. If they can do that so easily, what’s the point in even talking about a teams chemistry (at least as far as predicting how they’ll do in the future)?

For the first time this season, this team showed its talent level. We’ll see if they can maintain it or not – I certainly don’t expect them to play at that level often (I think they played a fantastic game last night that’ll be one of their best performances of the season), but I see no reason they can’t play pretty well for most of the games here on out. I’m still thinking 35ish wins for the season.

by Missing Barry on Nov 10, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Frankly, I don’t think your argument is ever going to carry any weight being that “black and white”. You’re either a PG or you’re not? So where is the line that divdes black from white? 4 assists per 36? 5 assists per 36? 6 assists per 36? You don’t see that there’s a full range in terms of players ability to get their teammates involved? Same thing with leadership, you’re either a leader or you’re not? Really? If that were true…then I’m assuming most people would be on the “not” side….so what’s worse with Monta not being a leader than various other players who aren’t leaders? Or are you recognizing there are varying degrees of leadership within the “not” category….which also implies things aren’t simply “black or white”.

Again, the fact is, if the Warriors were 4-1 right now nobody would be calling Monta’s “lack of leadership” out. The perception is more a result of the W-L record than the other way around…

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well it does carry some weight because it takes into consideration the assumption of many that Monta could end up being an effective starting PG on a winning team. In terms of being effective that means to look to pass as a first instinct and then if needed to score second. Monta thinks score, score, score, and then maybe create. Just because Nellie appointed Monta to the PG position doesn’t mean that he fits into that position. In fact Nellie changed his mind on that the moment Curry took it from Monta. Just watch the games and the way he plays, he’s looking to get his stats not improve the team. He doesn’t distribute with any consistency and overlooks guys like Morrow and Buike constantly. If he was a true point guard we wouldn’t even be talking about this. He’s had his opportunities and has shown that Curry is the PG and that he is not. Look around the league and the guys who are starting at that position and winning games distribute more often and clearly improve their teams, while Monta does not. He doesn’t find advantageous spots for sharpshooters like Curry and Morrow to shoot, which should be as easy as fishing with dynamite.
Most people aren’t leaders that’s why its very important to find a guy that is to be the face of the team. This team may not have leadership caliber guys on this team but thinking that Monta is one is just because he can score the most is stupid.

In terms of leadership its simple he’s not a leader. He hasn’t made anyone on this team better from last year, in fact some have gotten worse. When Nelly has to talk about him “becoming” more of a leader all summer, that’s not a glowing endorsement. Considering how bad the team was shouldn’t that have been something that would have happened when he came back from injury in the spring? Just look at his body language when he plays, on the bench and in the postgame interviews. He sounded totally defeated after the Clipper game. A leader would have been more positive and talk about what the team is going to do differently instead he just sat there and pouted. The guy is not vocal enough, does not have credibility to call out other players, does not sound intelligent when he speaks, and does not lead by example on the court. If we were 4-1 I still wouldnt consider Monta a leader because he’s not one and with the cupcake schedule they have had they should be 4-1 regardless. I still would have told that when things got tough he would crumble.

Black and White is what it is.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm….Tony Parker disagrees about passing first scoring second. So that basically addresses your first long paragraph.

I’m not even saying Monta has some unmeasurable/overrated leadership ability – I’m simply pointing out that the only reason people are citing it as a problem is because we’re 1-4….

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

lol. no im pretty sure he distributes quite a bit and often that’s why that team does and his ability to get the ball to Duncan is uncanny. If he was shoot first he wouldn’t be starting for the Spurs.

Some people may be using the record to point that out, but I’ve felt that way ever since he became the appointed heir to Baron. he’s just never been a leader and regardless of record he’s not now either.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You can take your leadership, I’ll take good players.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And yes, Parker does distribute more than Monta, but he’s still more of a scorer than distributor. He’s also improved at distribution over his career, he really wasn’t a good distributor his first few years in the league at all for a PG (which included a championship).

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 7:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ill take players that lead by good play because at the end of the day those guys beat individual good players every time. Leadership is critical in everything not just basketball.

Parker has been praised all along for how well he ran the Spurs which includes distributing to Duncan and getting Ginobili and others open shots. He’s a passer, Monta is not.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and would have embraced Curry right off the bat as an asset.

That’s kinda funny when the team was supposed to be building around Montay so Curr-bury is an asset with little value to a Montay lead team. Maybe Montay would have embraced a more useful asset? His honesty about the situation shows he understands the problem a lot better than management does.

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 9, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

its Monta for future reference...and yes Curry is an asset.

Monta should have realized that this guy is another shooting weapon to pass to and get easy points, not an imminent threat. Instead of bombing on the idea of Curry and him playing together he should have played it out a little bit before taking a negative stance. By taking that stance and going public the experiment was doomed before it was given a chance to succeed. If the harmony and chemistry was there that backcourt could be deadly.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 5:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Who cares, he said he didn’t like a small backcourt before he ever played with Curry. When he played with Curry he said he Curry was a lot better than he thought he’d be. In the end, do you know what impact that had on our W-L record? 0.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s the problem. how could he know that it wouldn’t work when he’d never played with him before? If he was in that mindset and it carried over onto the court which it clearly did, then of course it was going to fail. I was at the Suns game and the guy constantly overlooked Curry and flat out refused to pass to him. that’s a problem, which has cost us in W-L column.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So you honestly believe Monta intentionally didn’t pass to Curry…?

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i know he didn’t pass to him intentionally. Jack did the same thing. u can tell when guys aren’t passing to a particular guy. its pretty obvious to even the casual fan.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think Monta can net us a Bosh, Boozer or West, not unless we threw in at least another attractive piece. Undersized twos just aren’t prized commodities in this league, as most teams are leery of the matchup problems they cause against good teams. It’d be one thing if Monta were clearly the best undersized two in the league, but until he gets his scoring efficiency back up to ‘07-’08 levels, he’s just not… at this point, the burden of proof is on him to show that he’s as good as Ben Gordon and Jason Terry. I doubt Monta has much trade value right now. As such, we should probably hold onto him and hope he starts playing better, even if our goal is to trade him down the line.

One way to try to get him to play better would be to end this point guard experiment once and for all. I am not saying that Monta doesn’t have any point guard skills… you only have to look to the Memphis game to realize that he can make some plays. But I don’t think he’s a natural point guard, and the more he tries to run the offense, the more his own scoring suffers. Right now, he’s playing like a point guard who’s both a mediocre passer and a mediocre scorer. He’ll be more useful, and more attractive to other teams, if he’s a shooting guard who both passes and scores extremely well for his position.

by onlxn on Nov 9, 2009 12:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Monta + Andris

For Bosh.

I think Toronto would definitely at least consider it.

You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk

by LostHawkGSW on Nov 9, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They'd be stupid to walk away from that one

Especially given the 99.9% chance that Bosh is gone this offseason.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 9, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they absolutely would, but Biedrins is a lot more than a throw-in… unless and until Monta regains his ‘07-’08 form, Biedrins is probably our best player. I’d call that a “Biedrins package”, not a “Monta package”.

It’d be worth thinking about if Bosh were willing to extend here. But given the current state of things, I doubt pretzel vendors would be willing to extend with the Warriors, let alone young All-Stars.

by onlxn on Nov 9, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

speaking of Monta not being in his '07-'08 form...

Is it just me, or is his speed missing along with his jumper? He used to constantly blow by people for layups, but now he does that run-straight-into-defender-and-try-to-shoot-right-after-contact move that isn’t even really a move… And seems to get him called for offensive fouls as much as it gets blocks called.

by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 9, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Noo..

His jumper was the one thing that set up his drive and allowed him to get by defenders.
His quickness is back though, but not entirely.

by Richboievans on Nov 9, 2009 10:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My opinion is that he'll find his balance

He may end up being a score first PG. Fact is, he’s never really had a shot at it. And now he’s got this weird situation where they’ve brought in his replacement at PG before even giving him a chance to show what he can do. I think he’s pressing (just like the rest of the youngsters except Curry), and that he’ll settle down.

One thing could fix this: if he gets his jumper back in gear, he’s a whole different player. I have no idea how it could have gone this far south… if that happens, a whole new can of worms opens up.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 9, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed. You’ve gotta figure it’ll come back, but I have to say, I’m starting to worry.

by onlxn on Nov 9, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. You’ve gotta figure it’ll come back, but I have to say, I’m starting to worry.

by onlxn on Nov 9, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. You’ve gotta figure it’ll come back, but I have to say, I’m starting to worry.

by onlxn on Nov 9, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My bad… computer screw-up. Although the emphasis is sort of apropos, I guess.

by onlxn on Nov 9, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Barnett made an observation I remembered I'd noticed

He’s missing all his jumpers a little short. He’ll get it. He’s just short arming it, or short legging it.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 9, 2009 10:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he's had plenty of shots at it.

before last year when he decided to crash a moped, last year when he came back, all this summer, training camp before Curry earned the position. he’s not a PG, get it through your head.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he could mask as a point guard if he was a better ball handler (which would decrease his turnovers). It’s amazing how many times he just seems to lose track of the ball while it’s in his hands…

by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Nov 9, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So a year where he wasn’t playing then came back from a serious injury…and non-NBA games? That’s plenty of shots? Really? As opposed to someone like Tony Parker who slowly over 7 years improved his assist rate from 5.3/36 to 7.3/36? You really think, given the career paths of guys like Billups, Parker, Nash, that Monta has had “plenty of shots at it”?

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

this is his 5th season so….he’s had plenty of time to prove himself. If you recall Nellie tried to develop him for the position even before Baron left and the stretches when he was in at PG while Baron rested were brutal. Baron would have to come in early to clean it up.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He’s played all of two full seasons in his career at this point (and entered the NBA straight of HS). Seriously, go look up the career path/develop of Billups, Nash, and Parker. It’s really not that uncommon/unusual for it to take some time for a player to figure this stuff out.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s plenty of time to show that he’s a capable playmaker for others and that’s something he’s not.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd because I can agree with that.

Monta has had success in the NBA before, and I see no reason why he can’t regain form.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.

RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."

(MT)

by kenntoe on Nov 9, 2009 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not opposed

But it’d have to be a really good deal.

Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"

by dubzfan on Nov 9, 2009 2:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Monta should be our sixth man, then everything would be fine

Imagine him coming off the bench and going for 10 points in 3 minutes!
He is good, but not a star and he needs to be put in his place if he is going to stay here.
All I see is evidence of him becoming Allen Iverson.
tattoos-check
lying – check
superstar attitude that is detrimental to the team – check
failure to pass enough – check
only monta will never make the all star team and earn this franchise back the money they have invested

by warriorsvictim on Nov 9, 2009 2:18 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Monta = Iverson. Sigh. That’s not an argument. First, Monta doesn’t domiante the ball. in fact, he’s an excellent player off the ball. Second, Monta is an efficient scorer. Over 53% from the field in his last healthy season (and .580 TS%). Again, the exact opposite of Iverson. Tattoos? Really? Give me a break. Tattoos are so commonplace at the moment I can’t see how even the worst of bigots can stereotype someone because of tattoos at this point. The lying? Well, that’s certainly not a good thing. The whole moped incident was bad, and hopefully everyone can move on. Superstar attitude detrimental to the team? What, exactly, is this superstar attitude, what actions does it cause, and how does that hurt the team?

Monta is a good player. He’s not a superstar. He’s certainly better than a 6th man, especially on this team. He’s also worth his contract, assuming he starts playing more like the 2007-2008 Monta for the rest of the contract (and especially since he was essentially fined all the money he would have made last year for the games he missed). By the way, has anyone else noticed he’s averaging over 6 assists/36 so far this season? (Small sample size!) If he can keep it up, or even more along 5 assists/36, that’s starting to get near Tony Parker production….

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's an intriguing comparison.

I would love to see Monta come off the bench, because like Maggette he’s a instant scorer and that’s about it at this point. He would fill the Ben Gordon role on this team. I too find the sudden attitude and tattoos to be concerning,

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Attitude is one thing, though I think if that’s your argument it needs a lot more than: Monta = Iverson, so he has a superstar mentality that hurts the team? If you want to present an attitude issue, you need to make an argument what his attitude is, how you know that’s his attitude, and then how that affects the team.

Tattoos as a concern is ****ing stupid though. It’s what my age group does (I’m Monta’s age). Get over it. It honestly doesn’t mean a thing.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 7:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the pouting and crap after plays needs to stop that’s what i mean about attitude.

in regards to the tattoos, that many on the arms looks stupid. all im going to say.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think tattoos in general look stupid. I honestly don’t see the point. I’ve just realized my generation seems to love them and stereotyping someone based on tattoos is just….not something you should do. It just doesn’t tell you a whole lot about someones character.

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 9:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I still like Monta.

He’s definitely kicked up the passing a bit more which is good to see. He’s even brought it at times on defense. He’s not the problem for this team. We all know what the problems are.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.

RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."

(MT)

by kenntoe on Nov 9, 2009 5:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

All I see is evidence of him becoming Allen Iverson.

 Haha, and that’s a bad thing?

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 9, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it is when its the flawed AI circa 2008 not AI 2001.

The definition of AI now is a tempermental ballhog who whines and doesn’t win. That is where my comparison was, not the AI who went to the finals, becuase I don’t see Monta ever reaching that level.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 5:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to shatter anyone’s dreams, but the Iverson who made the finals in 2001 was really nothing special.

Iverson 2000-01
reg season: .518 TS% / 3.3 reb / 3.9 ast / 2.9 tov (per 36)
playoffs: .480 TS% / 3.7 reb / 4.8 ast / 2.2 tov (per 36)

No amount of intangibles make that a great season. Monta had a better season in 2007-08 than Iverson in 2000-01.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 9, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Damn that Philly team must’ve overachieved like crazy.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.

RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."

(MT)

by kenntoe on Nov 9, 2009 5:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

they did and he was special.

stats are stats, but the way he carried that team to victories is what was impressive. I don’t see Monta carrying 4 guys not capable of getting 10+ ppg to the finals ever.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess the question is how much of the “carrying” was done by the other 6-7 rotation players (three of whom, incidentally, averaged 10+ ppg). Iverson’s rather mediocre numbers suggest it’s a much higher percentage than the star-obsessed media give them credit for. “Them” of course being Ratliff / Mutombo / McKie / Snow / Hill / Lynch / Kukoc — none of whom may have been capable of delivering sound bites with AI’s aplomb and charisma, but all of whom deserve their fair share of the credit.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 9, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

See, this is one place where I think the stats fail. That Philly team really wasn’t very good. Eric Snow played lots of minutes for god’s sakes. As much as I like TS% and per 36 numbers (and I do), I think that’s a situation where they let us down…

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 7:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

they were a solid defensive team that had decent chemistry and AI as their closer that year. it was good enough.

by Jagz8 on Nov 9, 2009 7:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well said — I think that pretty much sums it up. The competition in the East was weak, and the Sixers played great defense (half the game, as we all know) and played like a team.

MB: I don’t see how this is a situation where the stats fail. The stats suggest that there were/are a fair number of “above average” NBA shooting guards (the 06-08 edition of Monta, e.g.) who could have replaced Iverson on that team and produced similar W/L results. It’s not a hypothesis we can test, obviously, but I don’t see any good reason to think it isn’t true.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 9, 2009 7:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The stats suggest that there were/are a fair number of "above average" NBA shooting guards (the 06-08 edition of Monta, e.g.) who could have replaced Iverson on that team and produced similar W/L results

This is mostly the part I disagree with. Like you said, it’s not a testable hypothesis, so I guess we’re gonna have to settle on the fact that I will not change my mind no matter what facts are brought to light. :)

by Missing Barry on Nov 9, 2009 9:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Seeing Iverson’s plus-minus numbers would be interesting, as it seems to me his case would be made or broken by how he performed defensively. Off the top of my head, I’m not sure where you find plus-minus numbers from that far back, though.

by onlxn on Nov 9, 2009 11:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good point, while I’m not a fan of +/- in general, I do think it would be very useful for this topic.

by Missing Barry on Nov 10, 2009 7:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, 82 games does go back to 2002-03, which should give an inkling.

net plus-minus
2002/03 — plus 0.2 (seventh-best on the team)
2003/04 — plus 0.7 (fifth-best on the team)
2004/05 — plus 4.5 (fourth-best on the team)
2005/06 — plus 8.6 (best on the team)

This seems to echo his statistical rate numbers rather well — in particular, TS% and assist rate, which start to show an improvement around 2004 or so. All indications remain that from 2000 to 03, Iverson just wasn’t that special a player. (And wasn’t really elite-level after that).

And hey, while we’re on the subject … today’s “small sample size fun fact” is that Anthony Morrow’s plusminus is currently +39.7. This after leading the team last season. Really hard to draw a bead on this guy … like, what do we have here?

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 10, 2009 8:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm…if only we had one more year.

by Missing Barry on Nov 10, 2009 9:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ummm your percentages are going to be awful when your starting lineup is...

eric snow, george mccloud, tyrone hill, dikemebe motombo. He was literally only offensive player

by tafkasam on Nov 9, 2009 9:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He was literally only offensive player

By “literally” you of course mean “figuratively.”

Chris Paul and LeBron James, despite not having any real studs for teammates, always manage to put up elite level numbers — far better numbers than Iverson ever managed in his career, no matter who he was playing with.

I’ll buy that the Sixers’ lack of firepower may have depressed Iverson’s assist numbers a bit, but even if you give him generous corrections for “crappy teammates” he’s still not remotely in the class of the elite modern-day initiators (Magic, Stockton, Jordan, Bird, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Paul, et al.)

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 10, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Iverson was not as good as those players. I won’t dispute that. He was good enough to basically be the entire offense on his own, though. Any thoughts on what effect that had on his teammates? I’d think it’s certainly possible their defensive value goes up since they don’t have to put much effort into offense since Iverson’s doing everything…

by Missing Barry on Nov 10, 2009 8:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So...lets do this

Ellis + Andris for Bosh
Buy out jacksons contract (just pay for this season)
Tank this season and get John Wall
Trade Curry + Maggs for Ariza

We will run:

PG: Wall – Law
SG: Morrow – Buki
SF: Ariza – Buki
PF: Randolph – Wright
C: Bosh – Turiaf

Plz, let my dreams come true…Oh, while im dreaming, have Ellison buy the warriors and hire Avery Johnson as coach.

You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk

by LostHawkGSW on Nov 9, 2009 5:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Make Avery Brain Shaw

Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"

by dubzfan on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Monta

was my fav player on the dubs but i think the best for us in the future is having Curry at PG so Monta really doesn’t fit into our future.

Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
The Golden Future
PF: Anthony Randolph
PG: Stephen Curry
Can't wait until GS wins a championship!!!

by GSW9 on Nov 9, 2009 5:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Some people have really overlooked his defense...

It’s improved since the beginning of the season.
He seems more active and is not wasting time running around screens.
At this point, I’d keep him over Curry because he’s been producing more for the team.

by Richboievans on Nov 9, 2009 10:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

+1

Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"

by dubzfan on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would agree that his defense is better. He’s too small and light to ever be a great defender, but the effort is there. Really nice to see.

by onlxn on Nov 10, 2009 12:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In his interview after the Clipps game he looked pretty jacked

We’ll see… As long as he can become competent and “annoying,” and if he can find his lost jumper, he’ll be a plus at the 2. If he can pick up some of the “running the team” skills and become a PG, he’ll be a BIG plus.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 10, 2009 10:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t discount his ability to create turnovers….

by Missing Barry on Nov 10, 2009 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Be careful what you wish for...

Trade Ellis he will shine somewhere else. He will post T. Hardaway, Issah Thomas numbers soon. Curry should be on second team and start only against smaller teams. Didnt Iverson make the finals one year so I dont mind the comparison talent wise(not the whole me first attitude but more Jordan type attitude). We need a quality big, with the versatility of AR I dont mind a C or PF. Trade Mags or Jackson with Watson and expiring contract for mid talent big. Also didnt the pistons win a Chapionship with a small back court. Also im thing more and more buke should be starting. If we trade Ellis packaged with someone else he better be an all star!

by 22goose on Nov 10, 2009 12:09 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Ellis is overrated

Trade Ellis or Morrow. What good is it having Morrow becoming the new overhyped FLAVOR OF THE WEEK

by RowellMustGo on Nov 10, 2009 12:57 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

…..when all he’ll ever be is a forever backup to Monta? Make a decision and stick with it. I’m not going to get excited over a bench player. Trade ammo while his trade value is high.

by RowellMustGo on Nov 10, 2009 12:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

You wouldn’t be opposed?

Monta through six games (per 36 minutes)

18.9 points
5.3 rebounds
5.8 assists
2.2 steals

Shooting is still off (.485 TS) and turnovers are too high (3.4 per 36), but those are some pretty special numbers. His defensive intensity and overall maturity has been a welcome sight as well. Obviously, I’d move Monta if it would bring back a guy like Bosh, but let’s not act like he’s an easily replaceable player (or worse, a “liability,” as someone here called him a couple weeks ago).

Of course, if I had to guess I’d say that by “NO” you actually mean “YES” (in reply to the thread question). Can’t say for sure, though. Sometimes it helps to express oneself in complete sentences.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 10, 2009 7:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know why you bother spending the time to provide reason

To somebody who probably saw the headline, clicked on it, and pressed the “End” button on their keyboard, typed two letters, and clicked “Post”… and then probably left for good. But, more power to you… I guess.

On topic, I fully expect the TS & TO numbers to improve because:

1. Eventually, he’ll either get some semblance of his jumper back or he’ll stop trying it so much.
2. Eventually, the team will jell and they’ll know where each other are and where they should move (like Randolph actually cutting down the lane a few times last night for an easy dish/dunk), rather than standing somewhere while their man doubles Monta.

Regardless, those numbers shouldn’t get any worse…

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 10, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It’ll also be great if he can re-find his free-throw stroke from last year. For a slasher like Monta, the difference between a .71 FT% and a .81 FT% is pretty big.

(Speaking of which, the most amusing stat of the season so far has to be the fact that AR’s tied for 12th in the league in free-throw accuracy, given how spazzy he’s been everywhere else. If that somehow holds up, it’ll go from “amusing” to “awesome” pretty quick. For now, though, I think “amusing” is the safe bet.)

by onlxn on Nov 10, 2009 11:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

For a slasher like Monta, the difference between a .71 FT% and a .81 FT% is pretty big.

It works out to about a half a point per game at the rate he’s managed to get to the line this year, which is about the same as it was 2 years ago. That’s not nothing, but I suspect many would dispute that it’s ‘pretty big’. I doubt it’s the difference where teams change how they play him for fear of him getting more FTs either.

by jae on Nov 10, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, it wouldn’t affect the strategy of our opponents in the slightest. But an extra half point a game, with no additional shots taken, is not insignificant in terms of Monta’s utility to us. This thread, after all, is about how valuable we think he’s going to be, given his various strengths and flaws. In the context of that discussion, the differences between 22.5 PTs/36 and 23.0 PTs/36, and a .570 TS% and a .580 TS%, do make a difference. It could be the difference between “Monta’s only a little better than Morrow, so maybe we should dump his contract” and “Monta’s a good bit better than Morrow, so maybe we should keep him.”

by onlxn on Nov 10, 2009 10:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed that small differences can matter, but I’m not convinced the 71-81% range you’re positing is particularly realistic. Am I correct in assuming the 71% low-end you’re citing is based on his 28 attempts this season? If one of those shots rattles in rather than out, he’s at an even 75%. He’s gone .763 / .767 / .830 from the stripe the past three seasons (that last figure in a smallish 94 FT sample size), or .767 for his career, in almost 1,000 attempts. On the whole, young players tend to improve gradually from the stripe. I’d say Monta’s realistic range is more like 75-79%,which means we’re talking about a difference of more like 0.2 points a game, which really is close to insignificant.

TS% looks a lot more volatile and uncertain, as it’s hard to say how much of his career high .580 he owed to playing alongside Baron. Rebound, assist, and turnover rates also bear some fretting about. FT% should be pretty low on our list of concerns, imho.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 10, 2009 11:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

All true. I wouldn’t say I’m worried about his free-throw shooting, particularly. But it’s something that can improve whether or not he ever regains all of his ‘07-’08 speed, and you’d think a guy with a midrange jumper as accurate as his could get into the 85% range eventually.

Free throws were on my mind, just because I noticed something odd: other than Randolph, every single Warrior is below their career average in free-throw shooting, at least 40-50 percentage points off their usual pace. Our vets (everyone except Curry) have a collective career .779 FT%… this year, they’re at .739 FT%, and if you remove AR, they’re at .701 FT%.

The sample size is tiny, of course, and other teams are well ahead of or behind their ‘08-’09 paces as well. But the leaguewide FT% is right around where it was at this time last season, so the new rims don’t seem to be a factor here. It’s just odd, and I hope it turns around. A team like ours can’t afford to bleed away a point a game because of sloppy free-throw shooting.

by onlxn on Nov 11, 2009 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

in 2-3 years....

I just think in 2-3 years, a team consisting of Monta, Curry, Morrow, Randolph, Biedrins, Turiaf, Wright and Buike is going to be a scary talented team….That’s the only reason why I would be against trading Ellis

by ARandolph on Nov 10, 2009 9:25 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

actually

…i dunno
ask me some days after tomorrow

i can’t decide -i m changing my mind after every W’s game ….and cup of coffee ….and cigarette

30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ

by Lat We N Trash on Nov 10, 2009 5:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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