Recap #17: Warriors 107, Nuggets 135 - Predictable Pain
by Hash on Dec 1, 2009 10:43 PM PST
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PrintOriginally posted Dec 1, 2009 9:53 PM PST
First and foremost, a huge thanks to IQofaWarrior for stepping up at the last minute to create an Open Thread. Without it, many of you may not have had a place to vent your pain and would no doubt be sitting atop clock towers right now. And speaking as someone currently up there, let me just say you don't want to be anywhere near here. It's cold, drafty and I have no idea what time it is. I guess I could lean over the side to see the clock but I might fall. Plus it would be upside down and I'd have to do that whole upside down clock re-arrangement in my head.
Frankly, after watching four quarters of this debacle, I just don't have it in me.
And this was when we were trying to play defense...
Warriors Web: What did you expect, a win?
Save the efforts of the first quarter, there wasn't really a whole lot that went right during this game. Hit the jump and let's talk a little bit about the bad, the bad, and the ugly.
Before we begin, let's get the obvious out there. The Warriors were sporting a roster 8 players deep (which, sadly, is the most we've had in a while) just came off of an energy depleting game in the Bay the previous night and flew out to play a team whose cheerleaders are taller than our backcourt.
...Ain't no way we were walking away with this one.
That being said, there's no avoiding the fact that the Warriors simply didn't look like they wanted to be out there playing tonight. Despite the fact that we were almost neck and neck with Denver on turnovers by the final whistle, many of our errors came off of lazy passes and severe miscommunications. At some points in the game it appeared that the Warriors were expending more energy chasing each others' passes that Denver was trying to score. Of course, it's not like Denver has to expel that much energy to score with the defensive effort we put forth...
(Intermission to pat myself on the back for that clever segway.)
Honestly, we're not the strongest defensive team out there (understatement) but tonight was just...well... horrendous. Specific references of the Nuggets dancing down the paint aside, we gave up back to back 44 point and 38 point quarters! Halfway through the second quarter the Warriors collectively decided to throw and and all defensive fundamentals out of the window and to just start doing their own thing. It's too bad Nellie wasn't there because he would have been flashing some serious Nelliebelly.
Trust me. When this thing comes out heads are about to roll.
At the end of the day it's really disheartening. I'm not even really referring to the loss, I'm more downtrodden about the manner of loss. With the Warriors coming off of a great 2nd half against the Pacers yesterday, one would hope that they would have tried to use today to start up a little momentum. Right now, with the state of our team, that doesn't have to mean a win. It could just mean our squad going out and showing that they know how to play together and putting up a solid fight against a better team.
Unfortunately, the only thing we had going on in unison tonight were the jerseys on our backs. And even those were different. What with everyone wearing different numbers and all.
Worst recap close ever. Fitting of the display we saw tonight I guess. (Hey, I think I just rescued it! Damn.)
Hey now Morrow! Tonight he dropped in a cool 27 to once again make the opposing team wonder who the heck he was. Not that I mind Morrow taking threes (as he actually makes them) but it was nice tonight to see most of his points come from the inside. Granted this wasn't for lack of trying from beyond the arc. Take it down A-Mo and lets put this game securely where it belongs. In the past.
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We didn't even try getting Monta going
CJ was the number one guy running the team and that is an awful idea. And Moore shouldn’t start! What’s the idea with it? Sending AR a message? HE WASN’T EVEN THERE! Hunter? Why not start him? And Vlad is awful and when we get some players back he should be off the starting team easily. Also Maggs is killing the offense, trade him with our 1st rounder for a good player or dump him for cap relief either way get him out of here when the year is over. We need Andris and Ronny back and no matter what your opinion of AR is we missed him tonight. Now for Curry I don’t get why everyone wants him super aggressive . He should take the shots when he gets them but he has trouble shaking people off and shouldn’t force it. I’m fine with him being the great passer he is and shouldn’t be forced to play out of his game.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
For a game or two I was warming up to Maggette, but it was just an illusion. He is, without a doubt, the most frustrating player to watch I have ever seen. Sure, Anthony Randolph is frustrating to watch because I want him to succeed but he can’t get his head in the game. Sure, Biedrins was frustrating to watch early in his career when he would foul out in 5 minutes. None of those things match the frustration level of watching Maggette flop around the court like a dying fish, turn the ball over constantly, chuck up shots from distance that barely hit the rim, and commit the dumbest fouls I’ve ever seen.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 1, 2009 10:32 PM PST up reply actions
Totally agree
Watson being ‘the guy’ running the offense just doesn’t make sense to me…
Maggs needs to go. He hurts this team. He hurts the ball movement, the D, other players offensive game and the pace of the game. Wish we could trade him for a bad teams first round pick.
Either way, we were gunna lose this game. Back end of a back to back @ denver is essentially unwinnable. Especially when you have an 8 man roster.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
I totally agree with you LostHawk
That’s why I did not bother to stay home and watch the whole game. I know it is hard to win in Denver with our situation. Specially on a back to back game, and I read somewhere that visiting team having hard time playing on Pepsi center it might be the altitude. So with 8 bodies and change of time zone coming off to a back to back game is a long shot for us. Then again please trade Maggete for bag of cheetos
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
Yeah, that's about who I picked for tonight's Warrior Wonder
For his growth in his game. He doesn’t look natural when he “drives”, but he did work his way towards the paint. He threw in a nice pump fake at least twice, which I don’t think I’ve seen him do before. Just nice to see him do something new to go along with his deadly shooting.
have to agree
he has been pump faking a ton this year. and usually it is completely ineffective.
by randolphforpresident on Dec 2, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
Lol Nelliebelly
I skipped this game but it looks like Afflalo took care of Monta like I predicted he would – gotta respect one of the leagues true defensive players.
Also, Monta didn’t score many points but the Warriors still got over 100. I think that demonstrates something. At least maybe it will tone down some of the “nobody helps Monta” speeches, every time Monta is taking 3/4 of the teams shots.
If Bochy coached the Warriors Bengie Molina would start every game at PG.
It demonstrates the lack of D the other team played...
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Nobody helped, the points came in garbage time
Monta got played just like how LA did. Got past the first guy and then had 4 guys on him. He looked tired from all the heavy minute nights. We need someone to take pressure off him so this doesn’t happen anymore. CJ as a 2nd guy will never work. Were too injured, not deep enough, play the wrong guys ( Starting Moore) and that we played Denver.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Ya, it’s impossible for monta to do anything when the other team can just double/tripple team him since no one else on our team is stepping up as a legitimate threat.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
"Nobody helped, the points came in garbage time"
actually i think Vlad scored his 17 while Monta was in (11 at the half). Morrow had 9 at the half (so on pace for 18).
They had 55 points at the half. The problem was more that they can’t slow down anybody defensively. The dubs actually won the 1st quarter 28-25, but got blown up in the 2nd (44-27) when Lawson, Smith & Birdman joined Nene & Melo (who were all around +20) and went up against the CJ, Monta, Maggette, Vlad & Hunter line up (all over -20).
by homer simpson on Dec 1, 2009 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
Ammo does that on a usual basis
Are you really going to count on Vlad to put up those type of numbers? Usually he will have something like 4 points so take away the 13 and we are at 42, then CJ usually won’t put up the numbers he has lately and we find our selves in a bit of an issue huh? Anyone can win a quarter when one player starts it off hot but he struggled the rest of the game. I don’t see how anyone can defend our role players in helping out Monta right now if there not named Morrow right now. Curry has been off, Vlad and Moore are well Vlad and Moore, Ronny and Andris are heavy there injury issues, Maggs kills the offense, CJ has played well but when he is a top 5 option on any team you have issues, Hunter is a nice player but isn’t really “helping” Monta. Need I go on? We have issues with our deph right now and no one can deny that.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
? you said nobody helped and that all their points were in garbage time, but Vlad helped and so did Morrow in the Nuggets game. All I did was point that out.
But if you want to all of a sudden change your argument to the long haul – believe me, someone always scores. Maybe not consistently, but each game someone will step up.
Did you know that the Warriors actually score much better when Monta is out of the game? Per 100 possessions, the W’s average 103.6 points per 100 with Monta while getting 130.9 per 100 when he’s not playing. Obviously this number is skewed and has other factors involved that skew it further, but there is evidence that the dubs have no problem scoring even without Monta and at a much more efficient rate in terms of effective FG%.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09GSW4.HTM
We have issues with our deph right now and no one can deny that.they have issues with talent. it’s unlikely that any of our players could start on Chauncey’s championship Piston team. you could argue that Monta might be the only one who gets off the bench on that team. everyone here keeps talking about the talent on the team, but there are zero all-stars, maybe 2 legit starters and a bunch of guys who are currently role players. efficient and/or above average role players maybe, but (for now) role players nonetheless.
by homer simpson on Dec 2, 2009 9:02 AM PST up reply actions
I think you are undervaluing Monta just a bit. If he were playing at his current level I think he beats out Rip for the starting 2 spot.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Their advanced stats are remarkably similar and Rip is listed at 6’6". Pretty much the same player except Rip is bigger and plays more solid position defense. In terms of what they had done in the playoffs (when the game tends to get more physical, yet less fouls are called) it’s not even close (both only had one playoff year prior, but Rip was actually good).
The slight difference in stats comes from pace and the fact that Monta gets more touches in general based on his usage stats. Keep in mind that he wouldn’t have the ball in his hands every time down if he were on that team (that honor goes to Chauncey). Rip is the better fit in that Reggie Miller role. By no means a slight to Monta. It’s just that when you play with Ben Wallace on offense, your shots tend to lean to jumpers because the big man covering can help off of him on any penetration. outside of the 3’s, Monta has shot poorly on his jumpers (so far he’s at 36.8% from 8 ft out to just inside the 3 pt line).
by homer simpson on Dec 2, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
Don't let this game fool you
Vlad will not put up games like this for another 20 or so games. Mikki is a well below average role player and CJ may just be average at best. And your right those numbers are skewed in many ways so I wouldn’t call it reliable.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
The point is someone always steps up. Everyone thinks Iverson was the only capable scorer on the 76ers, but the numbers showed otherwise (from jae)
More on the 00-01 76ers:
The notion that Iverson "had to shoot" because no one else could has very little basis in fact. Though it’s a small sample size, PHI was without him for 11 games that year. In games with Iverson, the team as a whole shot 44.8% from the field, while in games without him, they shot 44.5%. That’s pretty much statistically indistinguishable at that point. (Indeed that tiny difference completely disappears if you exclude the final game of the reg season, a meaningless garbage time contest against CHI where Larry Brown sat Iverson and played his other starters more sparingly.) This suggests that Iverson’s ball dominating wasn’t really necessary to the extent that his apologists indicate. It suggests that without Iverson dominating the ball, other guys did have to shoot a bit more, but they weren’t any less successful than Iverson was.
Iverson did not do it alone, though it appears that there are many willing to give him sole credit.
by jae on Nov 28, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recsi realize that you worship Monta and that i may be wasting my time here, but as good as Monta is, he’s not doing it by himself, nor does he have to.
by homer simpson on Dec 2, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
Of course some will always step up but it's not enough
CJ can put up 20 but teams won’t respect him and will still put 3 guys on Monta everytime he gets it. There’s a difference between scoring and drawing defenders and actually helping Monta out. Kobe also went through a similar issue like this. I know where your coming from but when you look at our team do see a 2nd option that will draw defenders away from him? If we did he would’t be dominating the ball as much now would he?
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
3 defenders? Lawson pretty much guarded Monta 1 on 1 with reasonable success (Monta did score on him, but Ty made it tough & forced his share of misses). But even when Afflalo was on him, from what i saw they only had one guy waiting for him – standard practice in the NBA for the opposing teams best player. and if he is drawing 3 defenders, he needs to adjust and get those assists b/c 2 men should be wide open.
As far as drawing defenders, Morrow actually provides a lot of spacing for whoever plays with him b/c teams try to stay home on him. As does Vlad (but only b/c of defensive 3 second rules, not b/c he’s a viable threat).
The problem is less about finding a #2 option offensively and more about playing anything resembling interior defense. Their other major problem being rebounding (dead last). They traded their previous #1 option Jackson and haven’t missed a beat (primarily b/c Monta’s a better #1 option).
If they were to lose Monta to injury, they’d still score around 109 with probably Maggette & Morrow benefiting the most – problem is they still wouldn’t be defending anyone. Their current big men flat out suck and even the injured ones are below average or somewhere close to average on defense.
Up till AR’s injury they were running out Mikki Moore who couldn’t get minutes in Sac last year, Vlad who couldn’t get minutes in Charlotte, a d-league pick up in Hunter, a 2nd yr player who plays like a chicken with his head cut off to mixed results and Turiaf who would be glued to the bench in LA & who has actually looked the worst of the bunch so far b/c of injury.
Nene 7-10, 18 pts 12 rebs. Birdman 5-6 14 pts 8 rebs. they got 32 & 20 from the center on 16 shots.
Gasol 32 minutes, 9-11. 22 & 12 & 3. Duncan 27 min, 10-12. 20 & 10 & 6. Kaman put up 22 & 9 on 9/16. Jason Thompson 19 & 10 on 6/11. you’re going to get blown out in the NBA if you give up 70% shooting and get crushed inside on the glass. and for the season, the Warriors are giving up 60% shooting to guys who are supposedly playing center.
by homer simpson on Dec 2, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
Our ppg is effected from our style of play
If we played half court without Monta we would be around 90 -95 a game. I agree that our rebounding sucks full heartedly. But that also has too due withstarting Vlad and Moore. Vlad’s rebounding has been inflated by starting Moore. AR would help with rebounding and missing Biedrins does not make things much better. As for Monta they played him like how LA did. He’d get past the 1st guy and 2 or 3 more were waiting in the paint. Yes Morrow spreads the floor but with him you need someone who can just harass him a bit since he is such a poor ball handler for a 2. People don’t respect Maggs because of how predictable he is and you can probably guess what they think of CJ. As of now our bench looks awful and our 2 starting bigs look awful.Before this year we looked very deep with AR, ME8, Curry, Jack/mystery player, Wright, Beans, Morrow, Buike and everyone else. But now without Buike, Wright, Beans , Ronny, AR ,and a threatening small forward we look very shallow no matter how you spin it.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
doh. let's try this again.
The point is someone always steps up. Everyone thinks Iverson was the only capable scorer on the 76ers, but the numbers showed otherwise (from jae)
More on the 00-01 76ers:
The notion that Iverson “had to shoot” because no one else could has very little basis in fact. Though it’s a small sample size, PHI was without him for 11 games that year. In games with Iverson, the team as a whole shot 44.8% from the field, while in games without him, they shot 44.5%. That’s pretty much statistically indistinguishable at that point. (Indeed that tiny difference completely disappears if you exclude the final game of the reg season, a meaningless garbage time contest against CHI where Larry Brown sat Iverson and played his other starters more sparingly.) This suggests that Iverson’s ball dominating wasn’t really necessary to the extent that his apologists indicate. It suggests that without Iverson dominating the ball, other guys did have to shoot a bit more, but they weren’t any less successful than Iverson was.
Iverson did not do it alone, though it appears that there are many willing to give him sole credit.
by jae on Nov 28, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i realize that you worship Monta and that i may be wasting my time here, but as good as Monta is, he’s not doing it by himself, nor does he have to.
by homer simpson on Dec 2, 2009 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
While Curry may not be shooting the ball well, it’s nice to see that he has cut down on the turnovers while still posting some decent assist numbers… 18 assists and only 4 turnovers in the last 3 games.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 1, 2009 10:36 PM PST reply actions
My number one concern coming out of this game is the sneaking suspicion that Monta’s “no way” statement about he and Curry working together in the backcourt might really be true. Offensively, I really don’t see any problems. Curry hasn’t been playing all that well, but he looks comfortable and I think he is growing into his role. The problem comes on defense. Curry just isn’t a good defender. This means Monta has to guard the other team’s best perimeter player. Combine that with the need for him to be the tip of the spear on offense, and you have a recipe for overworking him in a hurry. We are in desperate need of another perimeter defender, preferably one who can also defend the post (Gerald Wallace, Tayshaun, Kirilenko would all do nicely). I would move Curry into the backup PG role (giving he and Monta 10-12 minutes per night together) and move Morrow to the off guard spot. This would also allow Monta to spend more time on defense “floating” a la Kobe/LBJ, giving help defense, getting in passing lanes, and creating turnovers. Man we miss Buike. Damn.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I agree primarily because Curry is a rookie
You can see that Curry is putting forth the effort on D, he just isnt able to deliver consistently yet. I do think the two of them working in tandem is part of the reason we lead the league in steals though. It is great having two really quick guys up front on defense.
The problem is compounded though by Morow’s defense which is also in a growth phase. We cant have a 4 man front court with 3 of them in a steep learning curve.
We definitely need some help.
by warriorsvictim on Dec 2, 2009 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
I think a large part of the defensive woes is completely lacking people that can alter shots. Biedrins and Turiaf have barely played at all this year and even when they have they haven’t looked 100%. Blocking shots seemed to have disappeared from Randolph’s game for part of the season and made a comeback lately, but now he’s out too. Moore, Radman, and Maggs are not shot-blockers of any sort.
Let’s face it, Curry isn’t the first guy to get beat by his man consistently. Plenty of teams have had success with players that are poor perimeter defenders, mostly by making it up through team defense and shot blocking, which are not strengths of the Warriors right now.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 2, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
Relying on shot blocking is a recipe for disaster. When you give up dribble penetration, your big men are forced to leave their guys to come over and help you out. This results in two things: fouls piling up on your better bigs, forcing them to sit, and the other team’s bigs having a field day with offensive rebounds and easy shots. Sound familiar? We need to get better on the perimeter, everything else will follow.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I’m not trying to completely excuse Curry or say that we should rely on shot-blocking, I’m just saying it’s still something you need. Right now we have absolutely zero shot-blocking, basically Knicks-esque.You can’t have guys know that they have a free basket if they beat their first man all the time because they’ll just keep driving and driving. Shot-blocking is more of a scare tactic to force the opposing team into more jump shots. Perimeter defense is definitely a better way of forcing teams into jump shots, but it isn’t the only way.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 2, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
Did anyone catch the stat about teams playign back to back in Denver?
When a team plays their second game of a back to back in Denver, Denver is 18-1 now.
How the heck are teams supposed to play all out one night, fly to Denver at 4AM, then play all out again?
I know they are professionals and should play up to their pay sclae, but that is a daunting task with the elevation thrown in.
I think the NBA needs to make some schedule changes in the future to avoid this scenario, especially in conference.
We shouldnt have even bothered to show up with all this working against us in addition to the 8 man roster. Cohan probably would have been happy with the money saved on travel expenses
by warriorsvictim on Dec 2, 2009 9:33 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
We all knew it would be tough
But the type of play we displayed last night was absolutely disguisting and embarassing. I don’t think I can dislike a player on my own team more than I dislike Maggette.
by Throw up the Dub on Dec 2, 2009 10:21 AM PST up reply actions
I think everyone is reading too much into an unwinnable game
And before everyone gets into a hissy-fit at my using the word ‘unwinnable’ please re-read the ‘warriorsvictim’ post above. Throw in dead legs and little sleep, a very good, very motivated opponent coming off an embarrassing loss and any deep analysis of anyone’s play is just silly.
On a different subject, am I the only one who doesn’t know why Randolph didn’t play? Any explanation?
am I the only one who doesn’t know why Randolph didn’t play? Any explanation?
He got his left ankle tweaked in the previous game, he tried to plant it moving left and it rolled. Ouch, I know how that feels. Probably the basketball gods paying him back for taking out those fans then getting pissy about it when gasol went to see how they were?
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 2, 2009 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
The scheduling in the NBA is whack. The Lakers get to start the season playing something like 29 out of the first 33 games at home. I don’t understand why everything is so unbalanced. It seems like it should be pretty easy to put every schedule into some sort of matrix that judges travel time, home/away, back to backs, etc, and make sure that every team is basically getting equal treatment.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
+1
This is true why do we always start on a hard schedule then go easy after the all star break. When we already got a bunch of lost and exhausted player. Then the good team got to play most of the start of the season on their home team.
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
I bet they do have that matrix, but it includes marketing. The Lakers are the most popular team, so they get tons of early home games to get everyone interested in the NBA from the beginning of the season.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 2, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
The Lakers get to start the season playing something like 29 out of the first 33 games at home. I
But we get more home games later in the year which is a better schedule for tired players.
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 2, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions
No wonder
When we got a losing season we don’t get high on the pick. Because most likely we gonna make a run before the season end.
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
i didnt watch the game last night but...
why did monta play so much less last night?? was it because the game got out of hand early or some other reason he went from over 40 minutes a game to under 30
no point in
wasting his energy on a guaranteed loss
after the first half it was clear the warriors had no chance…best to rest ME8
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Watch Keith Smarts Interview
He explains all as to why he benched Monta…. made perfect sense to be fair..
GSOM Blog Beast!
by BritWarriorGSW on Dec 2, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
You know
I don’t know if it’s just me, but since Stephen Jackson got traded, all the drama has gone away. And that’s good for the locker room, but bad for news sites and blog sites. On days off, there’s nothing to talk about!
Don’t worry: Nellie’s coming back soon. Only a matter of time before he humiliates or insults one of the players he “loves to death” and starts the next brouhaha. I mean, why would want a calm, mature, emotionally stable dude like Keith Smart mentoring our young kids? Think of all the unsold newspapers!
There will be no extra point!
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