Polling GSoM: Do Warriors fans need to stop booing Corey Maggette?
by Atma Brother ONE on Dec 10, 2009 10:20 PM PST
in Polling GSoM
101 comments
GSoM friend Marcus Thompson has a great piece on Golden State Warriors forward Corey Maggette over at Inside Bay Area: Golden State Warriors' Corey Maggette battles perceptions that he believes are unfair
The picture MT paints of Maggette is a great locker room guy who hasn't had the easiest trajectory to the association, but has prevailed.
Don't look at me- I ain't booing the man.
My thoughts after the jump...
Sure his game isn't perfect, but the man comes out every night to play hard and he's been a great teammate. That's a lot more than you can say about some of the recent and current "captains" of this squad.
This ain't Al Harrington faking a back injury or Stephen Jackson being a jack... or even Mike Dunleavy being well Mike Dunleavy (see Why Does Mike Dunleavy Get Booed So Much?).
I'll pass the mic:
Hurt. Confused. A bit angry. That's how Warriors forward Corey Maggette said he feels about his home fans booing him, which has been the case of late at Oracle Arena.
"It's not pleasant at all," Maggette said. "I remember the time when Al Harrington was here, and he was getting booed and he was asking to be traded. And I saw it when (Stephen Jackson) was here, and he was asking to be traded. And now, I'm getting booed for wanting to be part of this team through all this nonsense."
Seriously, quit booing the man.
Warriors fans are better than that.
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I still think it’s alright to boo the guy when he takes long range jumpers/3s. That is not part of his game and we have so many other legit threats from that range.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Sometimes you have to take a long jumper just to keep the defense honest. It serves a purpose. If he was taking too many, it would obviously be a bad thing, but he’s putting up a .578 TS%, which is very good, so far this year. He is not taking too many long jumpers.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
just like what LostHawk said..
the only time he deserves to get boo’d is when he is cold as ice and he keeps forcing those long range jumpers, especially when the game is coming down to the wire. for a “veteran,” he should know by now that when he’s not hitting, he should try and find another way to help the team out instead of trying to rely on that non-existant long range jumper.
by LETS GO WARRIORS on Dec 10, 2009 10:36 PM PST reply actions
disagree
His ability to get to the line might be his best trait, but his jumper is a vital part of his game. If he starts hitting jump shots in a game, his defenders become weary and start guarding closer, which allows him to drive to the hoop.
Screw all you guys that boo Maggette. If he goes 1 for 8 and keeps shooting, then blame the coach for not taking him out. He has also been passing more than any other season in his career.
Anthony Randoph for Most Improved Player
by danielholl on Dec 11, 2009 12:43 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
when he is cold as ice
There’s no evidence that “streaks” really exist in any meaningful way at the NBA level. Just because he’s missed previous shots does not mean he’s more likely to miss the next one.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah right dude. When Radmanovic was 1-9 and he stopped shooting, it was a sigh of relief. Monta/Maggette will straight up shoot us out of the game in the 4th quarter sometimes. While you say they don’t exist, people DO have low percentage nights. Stop shooting and pass the ball in that case. The players know when they’re stinking up the floor. Inexcusable explanation.
Look, actual research has been done on this topic, and the evidence overwhelming points to the fact that I’m right. Think of shooting like flipping a coin. You have some chance of making it and some chance of missing it. You can flip a coin and get heads 5 times in a row – that dosen’t mean the odds are different for your next flip. You should make your next decision assuming the odds are the same. Shooting in the NBA is the same concept – just because you’ve been shooting better or worse than normal doesn’t mean you will continue doing better or worse than normal, in fact, going forward you should assume you’ll shoot at the rate you normally do. You can look at times someone goes 1-9 and say it’s not true, but you’re flat out wrong. That ignores all the times someone starts out 1-5 and then hits the next 2-4 or 3-4.
Bottom line, your strategy should not change becasue of the perception you’ve been “hot” or “cold”.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
And I’m saying I don’t care about that research. If you are having a cold shooting night, stop shooting the ball. You don’t play the game according to research, you play according to odds, and odds are if you’re 1-9, you aren’t going to get hot out of nowhere. Does it happen? Yes, but rarely. The same reason why teams look to feed the hot hand is the same reason why you should look to pass if you’re shooting like trash.
You don’t play the game according to research, you play according to odds
Um, research is exactly what you do to determine what the odds are. That’s exactly the point I’m getting at. It’s been shown (through research) that the odds are that you’ll hit the next shot at the same odds as you normally shoot, rather than there being some sort of “hot” or “cold” effect. Basically, people looked at all those times someone went 1-9, and checked what they did after it. And you know what they found? They are not more likely to miss than they normally are. Those are the odds.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
Not the odds overall. The odds within the game. You knew what I meant and still distorted it to make your point. Give me a break dude.
You knew what I meant and still distorted it to make your point. Give me a break dude.
You are not being as clear as you think you are. MB is trying to present you with new information that might challenge your preconceived notions about having a “hot hand” or being “cold as ice”. You can choose to ignore the evidence, you can challenge the findings of the study, but at this point you haven’t really made a case for yourself. No amount of “yeah rights” or “give me a breaks” will add up to a solid argument.
It is true that guys have lower percentage nights, but just because you are shooting poorly through three quarters doesn’t mean you will shoot poorly in the fourth. Just because a guy is 1-9 doesn’t make him more likely to miss his next shot.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
I know exactly what you meant. What I’m telling you is you’re completely wrong. I’m not distorting things, people have studied exactly what you’re talking about, and the data suggests the exact opposite of what you’re saying. Here’s a link if you’re interested:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/course/Syllabi/96Dartmouth/hothand.html
It’s one of many studies on the subject, and while I haven’t seen enough to definitively conclude that “hot streaks” and “cold streaks” are no more than random variation, the evidence for that is pretty strong, and even if there are exceptions, they’re few and far between and you’re better off treating everybody like the “hot hand” (or “cold hand” in this instance) does not exist.
To quote the linked article:
The gulf between science and sports may never loom wider than in the case of the hot hands.
Those who play, coach or otherwise follow basketball believe almost universally that a player who has successfully made his last shot or last few shots – a player with hot hands – is more likely to make his next shot. An exhaustive statistical analysis led by a Stanford University psychologist, examining thousands of shots in actual games, found otherwise: the probability of a successful shot depends not at all on the shots that come before.
To the psychologist, Amos Tversky, the discrepancy between reality and belief highlights the extraordinary differences between events that are random and events that people perceive as random. When events come in clusters and streaks, people look for explanations; they refuse to believe they are random, even though clusters and streaks do occur in random data.
‘’Very often the search for explanation in human affairs is a rejection of randomness,’’ Dr. Tversky said.
To understand attitudes about streakiness in basketball, Dr. Tversky and his researchers interviewed many ‘’real mavens’’ of the sport, as well as players and basketball statisticians. The more intimately their subjects knew the game, the more firmly they believed in hot hands.
To test the theory, the researchers got the records of every shot taken from the field by the Philadelphia 76ers over a full season and a half. When they looked at every sequence of two shots by the same player – hit-hit, hit-miss, miss-hit or miss-miss – they found that a hit followed by a miss was actually a tiny bit likelier than a hit followed by a hit.
They also looked at sequences of more than two shots. Again, the number of long streaks was no greater than would have been expected in a random set of data, with every event independent of its predecessor.
Look, I’m not coming at your personally. A lot of people believe in the “hot hand” as they call it in this research, especially people who are very knowledgeable about basketball, so it’s not just you. And in lower levels, like high school or even college that myself, others and possibly you’ve played, it very well may exist and so we might assume it happens in the NBA, too. The truth is, though, that in the NBA, being hot/cold all game just dosen’t really affect the chances a player makes the next shot they take.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
This is just gonna sound like a cop out, but they could never get a sample size big enough. Too many excellent volume shooters just have off nights for me to believe anything other than what I do now. It’s not statistical. It’s mental. That’s just how I think.
But an “off night”, as it appears on the surface, doesn’t contradict this – according to this type of research (again, that’s not the only thing done on the subject), an “off night” is just the product of random variation. It’s expected to happen. As I said, it may be more real at lower levels, where people like myself have mechanical issues in their shot at times that pop up or what not, but in the NBA these guys have worked so hard and so long on their game that things like that just don’t seem to be a problem. Anyways, “off nights” are more a perception – we see that a player had a bad game after the fact, but we won’t tend to notice as much when a player starts out bad and then does better the rest of the game, resulting in a decent stat line overall….
by Missing Barry on Dec 12, 2009 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
Those stats are not surprising, because the majority of the time you’re probably right. But players are not dice and they’re not rolled in a vacuum. They’re humans with psyches and dozens of factors can affect how they play, including how they shoot. The very argument that streaks cease to exist when all 10 players on the court are professional-quality players (but “may very well” exist in younger/less experienced players) is questionable at best. The fact that NBA players are better does not cancel out the fact that they aren’t shooting machines, but humans.
"Hold it. The Schwarzenegger Library?" - John Spartan after hearing Arnold became President, from Demolition Man
by 61st Amendment on Dec 12, 2009 5:05 AM PST up reply actions
Humans that have worked on their shot for countless hours in their lives. I can’t even imagine how many total shots some of these guys must have put up over the course of their lives….all to make their shot as perfect as possible.
the very argument that streaks cease to exist when all 10 players on the court are professional-quality players (but "may very well" exist in younger/less experienced players) is questionable at best
I’m not sure exactly what you’re questioning, but the fact is NBA level players are different than the rest of us when it comes to basketball. The amount of time they’ve put in, the fact that they’re the best of the best results in survivor bias…they are, unquestionably, a different population when it comes to basketball than everyone else.
Also, there’s definitely room for some factors to affect them here – if they’re going up against a tough or easy defense, that should change the chance they hit the next shot, I would guess home and away games would have a small effect (as players play better at home)…so I definitely see some room for physical factors. As for mental factors, well, they might play a small role but nothing meaningful. Shooting is such a basic muscle memory action, especially for these guys who have perfected their mechanics through hours and hours of practice…shooting just isn’t really a “thinking” thing.
And for the record, this sort of thing applies to baseball hitting, as well. Guys don’t get hot or cold any more than you’d expect from simple random variation….
by Missing Barry on Dec 12, 2009 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
It just seems like you’re implying that you could replace NBA or MLB players with robots programmed with equivalent percentages and skills and they’d play exactly the same.
I don’t think that’s reasonable. Some players are more likely to hit game-winning shots than other players with the same FG%. No one becomes 100% for a whole quarter because of “streakiness” but if you watched Brandon Jennings against the Warriors there’s simply no way to attribute that third quarter to chance. And yes, some of those 3rd-quarter shots went out.
In baseball I think of “streaks” as happening between teammates more than just by one hitter, for obvious reasons. And late-game come-from-behind rallies certainly don’t always happen, but when they do it’s because the batters are on, maybe the pitcher is off, but it certainly can’t be boiled down to chance. That takes too much credit away from the players.
"Hold it. The Schwarzenegger Library?" - John Spartan after hearing Arnold became President, from Demolition Man
by 61st Amendment on Dec 13, 2009 2:24 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah it's seriously dumb to boo the man.
He comes out and plays his hardest night in and night out. The guy might not be playing like his contract would say he should (even though there are contracts a lot worse; see Curry, Eddy), but we knew what type of player he was when he was signed. He’s a good player and seems like a good teammate. I’ve never heard him complain or demand a trade or anything. Stop booing the man.
He needs to understand why there booing
If he can’t that’s his fault. I like the guy but not the player. It was the same way with Jamal Crawford. If he got back to just driving and passed the ball more he wouldn’t be booed. Honestly , a trade would be best for both sides. He doesn’t really fit in this offense and I’m sure he’d like to go somewhere where he may feel more welcome. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure(see Jamal Crawford aka 6th man of the year). In a half court squad that is much more organized he would thrive, in a passing ,fast offense that likes too shoot jumpers he seems out of place. Also if you look what he did in LAC he shot the 3 well and had a better jumper which didn’t carry over. I do feel bad for the guy since he is a role model for some, Monta’s best friend on the team and is a hard worker and I think we should do what’s best for him and the team. He’s unselfish off the court, but on it is a different story.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Don’t compare Maggette to Crawford. Maggette is a good offensively player. Jamal is not. Maggette is having a great year offensively for the Warriors – see .578 TS% and 22.0 points per 36 minutes. You’re booing someone who’s being productive offensively. That doesn’t make any sense.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think he's selfish at all
Just not a good fit in our offense. I think he’d be considered a completely selfless player if he played for San Antonio, or Cleveland, or Boston or Orlando….or even on our team when Baron was around….
Maggs is awesome
The past few games I think hes starting to get why the fans are booing. He’s really been on the boards and hasn’t been jacking up too many ill advised jumpers. Now I can see why the warriors are stagnant when he has the rock, it’s because coach called his number (ISO). You have to admit that when he gets his calls we love him.
It reflects poorly on Warriors fans that we boo him
Our anger at our Front Office is well-placed, but we shouldn’t take it out on our players just because Cohan gives them stupid contracts. Maggette puts up impressive numbers in only 25 minutes a game. (15 points, 5 boards, 2 dimes, 1 steal and over 5 made FT’s a game)
LOL
Don’t get tricked guys.. .Corey makes 10 million a year… are we getting a 10 million a year performance from him? … Corey is a MLE guy at best. I’d take Trevor Ariza over Corey 7 days a week. All this nonsense about buying gifts for his teammates just means we gave him too much money.
Bottomline don’t feel sorry for these people. I respect Corey’s charities but he definitely deserve to get booed when he he takes a 3/ takes a long jumper.
horrible reason to boo
You boo a player when he doesn’t play hard, or plays selfishly.
When he gets paid to much….boo the FO. What should corey have done, not accepted the contract because he didn’t think he was worth 10mil/year? Haha, ok…… seems like a pretty crappy reason to boo a player, for cashing a check with his name on it…..
by bradyk2 on Dec 10, 2009 11:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
What should corey have done, not accepted the contract because he didn’t think he was worth 10mil/year?
I think this is a very important point to realize.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 11, 2009 12:40 AM PST up reply actions
Bottomline don’t feel sorry for these people. I respect Corey’s charities but he definitely deserve to get booed when he he takes a 3/ takes a long jumper.
I don’t think anyone here is taking pity on him. We’re angry because people like you are actively making the perception of playing for the Warriors worse by booing our own productive players. That’s BS. Also, if you have evidence Corey is taking too many long jumpers, feel free to give it, but I have strong evidence to the contrary that his total offensive performance has been very good this year. Also, agree with the other responses to your point so far. Good points all around. Booing Maggette is flat out wrong. Stop hurting the Warriors.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Not sure what you mean, "we" gave him too much money.
You don’t pay the team salaries, do you? I know I don’t. What a player gets paid is what he can manage to bargain, and no player is required to ask for less than he thinks he might be able to get. If he’s not giving $10M of value, it is up the front office to move hi and get better value. I think you would learn something from following the economic and performance analyses that are discussed regularly at AthleticsNation. Folks there understand the difference between a bad contract offer and a bad player.
by paris7 on Dec 11, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
PLEASE
Stop booing him people.
I’ve noticed people booing even as he pulls up for jumpers. That can’t be good for your confidence.
If you’re gonna boo, at least wait till after the shot misses.
by WheresMyChippy on Dec 10, 2009 11:27 PM PST reply actions
NO, he should be boo’ed as he’s taking those long range jumpers even if he makes it. He should not be taking those shots ever, unless he is on fire.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Dec 10, 2009 11:36 PM PST up reply actions
he’s shooting 48% from the field, and barely shooting a 3 a game. sure it’s annoying how the offense stops at him, but he’s not that inefficient….
Maggette on 82games.com
Has a break down of FG% from different ranges.
Shot Att. FG% Ast’d Blk’d Pts
Jump 55% .359 57% 8% 4.2
Close 39% .610 68% 26% 4.9
Dunk 4% 1.000 75% 0% 0.8
Tips 3% .600 0% 0% 0.3
Inside 45% .644 66% 22% 6.1
Maggette on 82games.com
I think you can see just what Warrior fans are booing about in these stats. He has an eFG% of 39% when shooting jumpers and those are half the shots that he puts up. He’s phenomenal every where else. Personally, I’m fine with him shooting elbow jumpers and anything 15 ft and in. It’s those 20 footers and three attempts that kill me.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 6 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
eFG% doesn’t seem like a useful tool to study Maggette to me because Maggette is so good at getting fouled and it doesn’t include FT’s, correct? Also, I’m curious if those numbers are FGA’s or include shots where he gets fouled? If they don’t include shots he gets fouled (which are basically all inside shots), then I think it’s misleading and inaccurate. If it does include them, then I’d have to agree with you that he should drive more often (though outside shots are still necessary to some degree).
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
eFG%
Effective Field Goal Percentage; the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal. For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%).
- http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
So it doesn’t take getting fouled into it’s equation.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 6 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
I still disagree that he’s messing up by taking those long jumpers, for myriad reasons:
-Like Missing Barry said, he needs to shoot those to keep the defense honest.
-Look at players like Kobe, Wade, LeBron, etc…. – EVERY wingman is going to have better numbers inside, going to the hoop, etc….it’s just natural in this game.
-Fair or not, players and coaches have a (usually) unspoken rule for keeping players happy if they play decently. As George Karl once said of Carmelo “I told him if he takes 15 shots going to the hoop or posting up, he can take 15 face-up jumpers.”
-We can analyze Corey’s game all we want for how he can be more efficient, but the reality is, he is efficient. 48% shooting is nothing to laugh at (especially when getting to the line so much), and while we can theorize on ways he could be higher than 48%, just like LeBron could be if he stopped shooting so many jumpers, we should still be happy that he is as effective as 48%.
Two more points.
1) often, though not always, Maggette shoots his long jumpers with <10 seconds left on the clock.
2) A natural 2 or small 3, corey is usually being guarded by 4s or 5s. Good shooter or not, a player is always taught to pull up for a jumper when being guarded by a bigger opponent (unless he’s guarding you close).
If he never shoots a jumper, nobody will ever close out on him. It has an effect on his overall offensive performance, and his overall performance has been good, so what are you complaining about, exactly?
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
Completely agree
That said, if he misses 2/3 of those jumpers then all that’s going to happen is that the defenders will continue to stay off him thus taking away any opportunity to create off the dribble. I don’t think everyone want him to stop shooting jumper, but rather tone down how many long range jumpers he puts up. Look at Monta for example. He’s consistently in that 10 to 18 ft range and deadly weapon because he’s so effective. Obviously Corey can’t be in that same range all the time without messing Monta up, but in terms of his shooting skill set that’s where I think Maggette jumper is the most effective.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 6 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
I do agree with all that, I just look at Corey’s overall results and they don’t suggest to me anything is terribly out of whack. He may not be at the perfect equilibrium he should be at, but based on how successful he’s been, he can’t be that far off, you know? And it’s kind of ridiculous that fans are upset, because his offensive game has been legitimately good so far, even if it could be a little better.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions
What?
Those shots are taken for a purpose. When he’s hitting them, that pretty much opens up a free lane to the basket for him (especially when he’s playing against slower opponents at the 4) and that usually results in free throws, a basket, or both.
How can you boo while he’s shooting? Do you not want the Warriors to win games? We need all the points we can get. And I know these guys are professionals, but your home fans booing you while you’re pulling up for a shot has got to affect you mentally and make you at least a little more likely to miss.
by WheresMyChippy on Dec 11, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
I agree, but, to be fair to the booers,
the long two is one of the worst shots in basketball.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 11, 2009 12:41 AM PST up reply actions
No Booing
But Maggette could use a little restraint in his game. He definitely seems a little bit out of place in the Warriors system, but you can’t ever complain about his hustle, work ethic, or attitude, and in reality, he is very effective once every few games.
by Pearlsofwisdom on Dec 10, 2009 11:44 PM PST reply actions
I think its more of a Warriors
system that is why he always force to take those open 3. Nellie is known to bench players for passing the ball.
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
I like Maggette
I like how he’s been playing, for the most part. He’s a big body that can repeatedly get to the line, and it’s clear he’s not as selfish as he’s given credit for.
Can't tell me NOTHIN'.
by WarriorThrilla on Dec 11, 2009 12:14 AM PST reply actions
show maggs some love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFJCYEbwtpY
Watch what he does at the 3:00 mark, it’s a subtle sign of Magg’s character. He’s a good teammate and he adds to the chemistry. I mean, have you seen the handshake/dance/ritual he does with monta before the games? I just think he’s had an uphill battle because of the whole Baron leaving and him coming here situation and the fans don’t cut him as much slack as they do other guys. It just comes off as hypocritical when we boo Maggs taking mid range jumpers but we don’t boo when Randolph jacks them up from just as far and misses just as much. We’re touted as the best fans in the league, since Maggete’s on the team we should support him.
praise adonal.
what he said
it’s a disgrace that the best fans in the league pull that on their own players. D-I-S-G-R-A-C-E.
I generally disagree with everything you say….but I can agree on this one. It’s a poor showing by Warriors fans.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
I'm not trying to diss him by booing him
I’m just testing his faith! He should be thanking me
WOW.......
DUDE….you are just hilarious
by Morrow is wet!!! on Dec 11, 2009 8:48 AM PST up reply actions
We boo because we care... BUT we should stop booing him. It's not entirely his fault.
Maggs needs to understand that the fans boo him because we care about the team and partly because we expect so much more from him. We know he’s such a dominant driver and finisher, we’re disappointed when he settles for the 3. If he played like Monta – mid range shots, drives, and few 3s the fans would love the guy.
He’s a 32% career 3 point shooter – barely decent. However, Dubs fan have a right to boo Maggs 3 point shot because he shot 25% from 3 point land last year and attempted 2 a game! This year he’s shooting at 21% but at least he’s closer to 1 attempted 3 pointer a game (1.3). He should stop taking them completely, but I can live with one a game.
Plus there’s the fact that he averages more TOs than AST and many more “non-traditional” TOs when he becomes single minded and forces his way to the rim expecting a foul and is instead called for a charge or tosses up a lay up that has no chance. The thing about Maggs is that he doesn’t have a “feel” for the game…. he maybe a great teammate off the court, but on the court he’s hardly a fun person to play with.
With all that said since the Jackson trade (haven’t looked at any stats – maybe my next article?) he’s been playing a lot more team oriented ball. It seems like he’s taking it to the rack more and while he occasionally takes a long jumper it’s not as apparent as before. He’s also actually passing the ball more it seems, he may not get credited with an assists but there are times now when instead of shooting or driving Maggs will GASP pass the ball so the Dubs can swing it around!
Also, I learned to appreciate his game more once I acknowledge that it’s Nellie’s fault for playing Maggs at the 4 and 5 spot. It’s not his fault he’s 6’6", 225 pounds and his coach is asking him to guard dudes bigger and stronger than him. Yet there he goes, fighting for position against guys who have 4-5 inches or 20-50 pounds over him. Gotta respect that.
He’s not the perfect player, but he’s always been a pro.
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by FLAxwless on Dec 11, 2009 2:23 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I don’t mind when Maggs take open jumpers, thats all fine and dandy, he needs to try to keep opp. teams honest. When he is taking contested long-range jumpers way early in the shot clock, I will BOO him till the cows come home. However, for me it speaks more of our FO/Coaching ineptitude as when AR makes those mistakes, Nellie tends to be swift and decisive in benching AR for the rest of the game. When Maggette makes similar mistakes, Nellie leaves him out on the court to figure it out.
I want to see more of the Maggette that we’ve been getting in flashes since Jax left, like in the Nets game. He has always been professional, but now it’s time for Maggette to step up and do what’s best for this team’s future.
Please people he is a grown man!
Lets get real…I dont feel bad for anybody that is gettting paid MILLIONS (50 MILLION TO BE EXACT!) of dollars to play a sport and cant take it when the fans are not happy with their performance. Corey consistantly is taking 18+ ft. jumpers early in the shot clock and has a very low percentage. He also takes those type of shots at some of the worst possible times in the game!! He is an NBA veteran and should know better than this. His game is drive to the bucket and get fouled type of player not a jump shooter. Im sure even the other team is happy when he shoots jumpers!! Just less defense they have to play…When he plays his game like against the Nets this week you would hear no booing and probably some cheering but when he tries to do more than he his capable of and hurts this team that is desperate for wins then the boos will keep coming….Sorry just the way it is
God Willing...
Money doesn't buy happiness
I have little sympathy for millionaires as well – however, a lot of money has no connection to how he feels when he is boo’d on his own home court when he feels he is playing hard, through injuries and trying to become a better defender (which I hope we all have seen the growth in).
Plenty of wealthy people are miserable, just like the rest of us.
Also, while he may not play like his contract suggests – I wouldn’t put a dollar figure on his positive influence on Monta compared to what seemed to be Jackson’s negative influence.
Corey consistantly is taking 18+ ft. jumpers early in the shot clock and has a very low percentage.
Really? Because he’s actually shooting at a very good percentage overall this year. Basically, the reasons you boo are flat out wrong. You’re booing for something you perceive, despite the fact that the truth is the exact opposite.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
Yea Let's Not Boo Maggs
He ain’t as bad as a lot of people think he is. It’s just that he tries to do to much. All I hope for him to do is rebound, defend the post, and drive for layups and nice 3 pt plays since it seems like hes the only capable guy of doing that on a consistent basis.
The Time Is Now! Win Warriors Win!
Of Course
we are going to boo him since he’s lobbing up air balls from three point land. These types of shots take the warriors out of their game.
Those who say that he’s using the jumper to set up the drive are full of baloney. Um…to set up a drive or triple threat you have to have the ability to make shots. We have plenty of three point shooters already. I don’t feel bad for him at all. In fact I expect more out of him especially with Jackson gone. If the warriors are going to win he’s going to have to play some SMARTER basketball.
Memo to Corey: Stop sucking and people will stop booing.
hey just wondering.......
do you get mad when A. Randolph takes those long range shots and misses them (more often than maggette)……if it really is about taking bad shots…..why doesn’t he get booed?
by Morrow is wet!!! on Dec 11, 2009 8:51 AM PST up reply actions
Stop sucking and people will stop booing.
That’s just the thing. He’s not sucking. Show me any evidence he is, seriously. Look up his stats, and try to figure out how he’s sucking. Do you realize he scores at a higher rate, AND more efficiently than Ellis does?
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 10:00 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Stats don't tell the whole story
He changes our game and takes us out of momentum. Look at the Orlando for an example. He does not fit with our offense. His reluctance to pass kills the flow of our offense.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
He’s not a good passer, I agree. He is a very good scorer, though. Can you quantify what effect his “reluctance to pass” has on our offense? We know that his scoring helps, because again, he scores a lot, and he does so at a well above average efficiency. That is a good thing. Also, you’re using one game against one the best teams in the league to make your case. That’s about as meaningful as me pointing to the Nets game and saying look at Maggette’s +25 +/- that game, or +27 +/- against the Pacers!
The whole point of statistics are to record what happens – you may think the stats I’m citing don’t tell the whole story, and that’s fine, but the whole point is to find out what ways he’s hurting or helping the team – and you have to actually look at what happens (in other words, use stats) to do that. If something isn’t showing up, chances are, it’s not doing a whole lot.
Overall, our offense has been less than 1 point worse per 100 possessions with Maggette on the floor than with Maggette off the floor. Pretty small difference. That obviously doesn’t tell the whole story, for instance Maggette and Morrow rarely play together and Morrow has the highest +/- of anyone on the team that plays substantial minutes. I wonder if anyone can go further in depth as to how our offense does with Maggette on the floor?
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll attempt a short version
Maggs normally plays with our second team. Our second team is THIN. Our second team should get murdered on a nightly basis, because we play 7 or 8 guys, when we should play 12. Our second team is Maggette with CJ Watson, Mikki Moore (who gets relegated to second team after about four minutes), and Monta and Curry trying to rest because they should be on the bench. It should be maggette, azubuike, watson, wright and turiaf. big difference.
The fact that we’re less than 1 point worse per 100 possessions (great stat, Missing Barry), is an enormous testament to Maggette. It means that he’s able to keep our team afloat when our decrepit and unhealthy second team is going up against the likes of, say, Boston or Dallas’ second team. That’s an impressive feat. He’s as impressive as any sixth man in the league, and as crucial to our second team as Ginobili or Jason Terry.
Just to be clear, that’s less than 1 point offensively. We’re almost 5 points worse, overall. But that’ll happen to you when Maggette’s your PF or C….
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
good clarification
but like you said, he’s your PF or C, and he’s still playing with the second team, against what should be a superior second team
I repeat:
while he could be more efficient if he drove more, he’s shooting 48% from the field.
In comparison:
Monta Ellis: 45%
Stephen Curry: 45%
Anthony Randolph: 43%
It’s not enough to say “he’s taking bad shots and missing them.” "Just like Onixn’s wonderful fanpost on why Mikki Moore is hurting us, we need to have some objective evidence before we attack Corey.
Reggie Miller didn’t set the 3-point record by having a pretty shot. He set the record by making them.
by bradyk2 on Dec 11, 2009 8:52 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Reggie also made a lot of jumpers
Something Corey doesn’t do. Anyone can shoot well when flopping and getting to the line and finishing with layups or dunks.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Anyone can shoot well when flopping and getting to the line and finishing with layups or dunks.
Funny, because very few people manage to do what Maggette does, suggesting just anyone cannot do it…?
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
this debate is ridiculous. cut the whole "jumper thing. break it down, plain and simple.
Basketball is about throwing a ball into a hoop. for every 100 times corey maggette attempts to throw this ball into this hoop, it goes in 48 times. for every 100 times Monta Ellis or Stephen Curry attempt such a feat, it goes in 45 times. For every 100 times Joe Johnson tries this, it goes in 44 times. That’s all that matters. Screw jumpers, flopping, all of that, it’s subjective. numbers are not.
I think Maggette misunderstands the boos.
The boos are not because of his personality, or because he’s lazy and doesn’t give any effort, or he’s a bad teammate. It’s because he forces bad shots and misses them horribly.
I think he’s a nice guy. I think he’s a stable veteran presence to the young kids. I think he puts effort into the game, like leapfrogging for loose balls or trying to fight for rebounds. I recognize he’s sacrificing his body when he has to bang inside. I don’t think he’s selfish, certainly not intentionally selfish. I don’t think he’s a “black hole” like he was when he first played for the Warriors. I do see him rotate the ball around or pass the ball ahead on fast breaks. I understand that sometimes the play called is for a Maggette iso if there’s a mismatch, so it’s not like he’s choosing to hog the ball.
It’s the shot selection! It’s the 3’s, or the long 2’s, or the contested shots that he keeps taking and missing badly. That’s what drives everyone nuts. It’s not like Radman whose shots look like they should go in, but don’t. Maggette’s shots look like they shouldn’t go in, and they usually don’t. While I wouldn’t go as far as booing, I do understand why fans boo, and my patience with his shot selection is wearing a bit thin.
Like the 5th time I’m going to say this, but until people actually change their perceptions to be more in line with the facts, I’m not going to stop….find some evidence his shot selection is poor. His overall production has been just the opposite of that – suggesting his shot selection, while it may seem poor the couple of times he shoots 3 jumpers in a row, on the whole, is good and exactly what we want. The guy is averaging 9.5 FT’s per 36 minutes. That’s tremendous. A FT is basically the best shot in the game. That’s phenomenal, and a lot more helpful than his 1.6 3PA’s per 36 minutes is hurtful.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Not just the 3's
Its not just the 3’s that you are correct he rarely takes but the long jumpers 18+ ft that he misses terribly and kills the flow of the offense. Not saying he’s the only one but he’s a veteran and should know his the strenghts and weakness of his game by now
God Willing...
Yeah, but those jumpers are still only a small part of his game. You guys are getting worked up about nothing. Overall, he’s been scoring efficiently and at a high volume this year. He’s one of the better scorers in the NBA, and people are treating him like he’s the exact opposite of that.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
Exactly what I was thinking
His terrible shot selection when it comes to jumpers are what make me tear my hair out. Those are not the strong parts of his game and should only be resorted to when there’s 3 or so seconds on the clock…..not 15.
You’re making much ado about nothing. He doesn’t shoot many jumpers.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
Great article by MT2. And, yeah, there’s no question about it. Warriors fans, both in person and online, give the guy a raw deal.
Let’s be very clear: what Corey Maggette does on offense works. It’s ugly as hell, and it’s frustrating when it’s not working, but it is absolutely effective. Maggette’s career true shooting percentage is .577, the 49th-best figure on record (meaning since 1977)… over the course of his career, Maggette has been a more efficient scorer than Karl Malone, Pau Gasol, Carlos Boozer, Chris Paul and Michael friggin’ Jordan. Monta got a $66M contract based on a year with a .580 TS%, a figure that’s increasingly looking like an outlier in the context of his career… Maggette has scored more efficiently than that in five out of the last seven years. The worst TS% of Maggette’s career is .553, recorded during his rookie season. That’s not only well enough league average, it’s higher than any season Baron Davis or Stephen Jackson has ever recorded. This year, Maggette’s at .578. It’s not like he’s lost a step.
.
The impressive thing about Maggette’s efficiency is that he keeps it high despite shooting so often. Corey is also 56th-best in the league in usage since 1977, using 25.4% of his team’s possessions. Call him a gunner if you like, but when a guy scores this efficiently, you want him shooting a lot. Maggette not only scores more efficiently than Ray Allen, he scores more often than Ray Allen. You’d think we’d appreciate that a little more than we do.
You know how many players have scored more efficiently and more often than Maggette since 1977? Just seven: Adrian Dantley, David Robinson, ‘Zo, Shaq, Dirk, Yao and Amar’e. That doesn’t mean that Maggette is actually the eighth-best scorer of the last thirty years, because he’s not… combining the lists unfairly cherry-picks in his favor. Still and all, this guy has been a truly elite scorer for a long time. If any Warrior has earned the benefit of the doubt when making offensive decisions, it’s him, yet Warriors fans have less patience for him than for anyone.
Do I like it when Corey Maggette shoots jumpers? No, I don’t. But he does have to shoot some to set up his drives — he can’t let defenders completely sag back on him and seal off the lane. It’s also easy to overstate the crappiness of his jumper. His eFG on jumpers this year is .359. That’s no great shakes, but Monta’s only at .368, and Vlad’s only at .387. I’d like to see Maggette take more of his jumpers from behind the arc, as that stretches defenses more and has a higher payoff… these eighteen-footers are for the birds. But I can’t begrudge him for taking jumpers in general. The guy knows what he’s doing.
The rest of his game, of course, isn’t as good. Maggette’s a pretty good rebounder for his size, and doesn’t get enough credit for that, but beyond that, he’s pretty limited. He’s not a good passer. And his defense has been a detriment: both this year and last, we have defended a bit worse with Maggette on the floor. In fact, his overall plus-minus numbers as a Warrior have been weak… both this year and last, we get beaten more quickly when he’s out there for us.
But Maggette had a positive plus-minus for the Clippers in each of his last five years there. He was a consistent asset before becoming a Warrior. So what happened? Did he get old? Did he stop trying? Did he start shooting too many jumpers?
No, no and no. Our weak record with Maggette on the floor is not Corey Maggette’s fault: it’s Don Nelson’s. We acquired a player who’d been a solidly good small forward for nine years — within three weeks, Nellie made him a power forward, and the wheels came off. Maggette doesn’t have the size or shot-altering ability to defend fours, and the mismatch at the other end doesn’t do much for him… it’s not like he was having trouble scoring against threes. It has been obvious for over a year that Maggette is in no way, shape or form a power forward, and yet, through a combination of injury-induced necessity and Nellie’s stubbornness, Maggette has spent over two-thirds of his Warrior minutes at the four. This is a guy who was drafted as a shooting guard. Since coming here, he’s spent more time playing center than shooting guard.
Maggette is playing out of position, getting smacked around by guys who have sixty pounds on him, night after night. He’s still driving the lane and producing, putting his body on the line. He’s putting up the best rebound rate of his career, primarily through sheer effort on both ends. He is playing possibly the most energetic defense of his career. He’s consistently diving for loose balls. All this doesn’t amount to much, because no matter how hard he tries, he’s not a power forward… we’re just flat-out using him wrong. But he tries anyway, and he does it without complaint. Corey Maggette is a good soldier, a good Warrior. To boo him because he takes the occasional ill-advised jumper — on this team, no less — is ridiculous.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
by onlxn on Dec 11, 2009 10:23 AM PST reply actions 4 recs
Especially now since we’ve added Vlad and Hunter, I still can’t see why we keep playing Maggs at the 4. I used to think Nellie gave playtime based on salary, but Curry and Morrow have really been racking up the minutes. For whatever reason Nellie does not want AR at the 4 and thus we are stuck with Vlad, who when his shot is falling is actually pretty decent, or Maggette who just shouldn’t be there in the first place.
I also want to pull my hair out whenever the dubs resort to Monta & Maggs isos in crunch time. Though recently they’ve been a little better at dishing out when they don’t have the shot.
by Badly Browned on Dec 11, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
Cory Maggette embodies everything wrong with the NBA:
clear a side, let him drive, hope he gets fouled
he can’t shoot
he can’t pass
he is lazy on defense
he doesn’t get back because he is sulking or complaining to the refs
he is a primmadonna in practice
he exaggerates injuries
most importantly he KILLS MOMENTUM.
The Warriors are a very young team whose peaks and valleys are well documented.
When they are peaking, they can put 140 on you. Conversely wen their momentum is stripped from bad defense, complaining to the refs and not moving the ball, they can lose by 50. Maggs is the chief contributor to all of these young team killers.
Maggs can be a contributor on an east coast team who has more even keeled veterans. The Warriors are not a good fit for him. When it comes to the boo-ing i think this is a projection of the people who are fed up with bungling ownership and shoddy management.
I have faith that Riley will be able to move Maggs by the deadline.
Until then, keep boo-ing dubsfans until Corey decides to be a team player.
Lol
Way to give into mob mentality and certainly a lot of myths with the way Maggette players.
1. wrong, he can shoot if he wasn’t able too he’d be given wide open 15 footers all the time, it’s the fact he can make them that allows him to get to the rim. Maggette just needs to forget about shooting threes of anything from over 18 feet.
2. He can pass he proved that against New Jersey
3. He is not lazy on defense, again look at the block he had against New Jersey and how he forced a traveling violation.
4. Most of the time when Maggette is complaining he has a valid point that he was hit other time he gets frustrated.
5. Really he’s a primadonna in practice? Hmmmmm can you tell me where Maggete has acted like a primadonna? Maybe first you should understand what a primadonna is!
6. He exaggerates injuries, that’s a wow statement right there, as in wow what an incredibly stupid thing to say.
7. Another myth that you’re subscribing too
Not to disagree too much...
Saying that you “proved something” against New Jersey is like saying you “proved something” against a girls Jr. High JV team. I am not saying that he can’t pass (although it would be worth examining) I am just saying that you can’t really prove something against the worst team in the NBA.
by Underhand Free-throw on Dec 11, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
Do you have a single piece of evidence that can even remotely back up a single thing you just said?
When it comes to the boo-ing i think this is a projection of the people who are fed up with bungling ownership and shoddy management.
So we’re mad about one thing, and we take it out on an individual who is not responsible for that? How would you feel if people who were supposed to support you were booing you? The money has nothing to do with it – because Corey can play somewhere else and get paid well where he doesn’t get booed. All this environment does is make the Warriors less attractive to NBA players than it already is. Now you’re contributing to our ineptness….making you like that same “bungling ownership and shoddy management” (to a lesser degree, of course) you’re mad about….
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
Stagnant Offense.
I totally understand why Maggette needs to keep taking outside shots. When Corey drives good things seem to happen. Opening up the lane and keeping the defense honest is important.
I get upset (sometimes to the point of booing) when he holds onto the ball in the triple threat position. It seems like he just holds the ball way too long before doing something with it. A bad (perhaps boo-able) Maggette play goes something like this: Corey gets the ball, holds onto it. Jab step from the triple threat position, defender backs off, fake shot, jab step, fake shot, then finally he decides to HOIST one up. It seems like to me he misses most of those shots.
The problem is not that he is missing those shots so much (I am always happy when he makes one). The problem is that the rest of the team is sitting around waiting for him to do something. Rarely do I see people cutting when Corey is in the Triple Threat, nor do I see them going after his rebounds. Stagnant offense is boring to watch, and frustrating to see great offensive threats get marginalized while Mags puts up “bad” shots.
It seems like when he takes a shot in rhythm, or off the dribble it keeps the rest of the team engaged. I just don’t like watching him jab step and HOIST a shot up.
It was the same style of play by Stephen Jackson that made me so angry too.
by Underhand Free-throw on Dec 11, 2009 1:12 PM PST reply actions
Wow...All I can say is...Wow
First off, I would like to state that Onlxn is probably my favorite poster. Onlxn writes very well; his posts are organized, clear, concise, and logical. His knowledge is generally outstanding, and he clearly watches the team and analyzes the stats. I agree with 96% of what he usually says. I also typically enjoy MT2’s writings and perspective. But don’t call me the hater for what I’m about to say…
The MT2 article is just absurd. I have no idea what kind of life journey Corey is on to make himself “into the complete person,” and I really don’t care. I care about Maggette as a basketball player, as a Warrior, and as a member of the Bay Area community. Anything else is irrelevant. MT2’s mentions both the “Finding Forrester” nature of Maggette’s high school tenure and his 1-year-only at Duke (the school where everyone stays 3 or 4 years), but these two ideas are completely contradictory in nature.
MT2 then discusses Maggette’s perception of being selfish, and he backs this up with a completely generic Monta Ellis quote (“He tries to make plays for others. He tries to get everybody involved. He tries to do what’s best for the team.”) and an anecdote about how he loaned Anthony Morrow his car. Is this serious? Is this what passes for “journalism?” When basketball fans throw around the word ‘selfish,’ I think it is safe to assume we mean on the court. As a respected journalist, MT2 should know this, and his assertions should be backed up with specifics.
Onlxn makes 3 main points about Corey, and I’ll go through each in reverse order:
3. Don Nelson is the problem because he plays Corey Maggette out of position — It is very difficult to argue with this assertion, and it drives me nuts to see Corey playing center. But this team loves its small guards (Ellis, Curry, Watson, Morrow), so I’m not sure that Corey can play small forward on this team as currently assembled, but of course, I would like to see it.
2. Corey Maggette’s non-offensive game is not very good — This could be the understatement of the year. His rebounding is solid one game, non-existent the next. His defense is flat-out bad. He tries to take five charges a game instead of playing the ball. His shot-blocking/altering is horrible despite the fact that he’s an athletic freak. And he’s almost always a step late on D. And I truly believe Corey to be the worst passer in the NBA. One anecdote if I may: (last year, in a game @ Houston when the W’s were playing the Rockets really tough, I noticed that Corey was ball-hogging every time down the court. There was one sequence when Jamal Crawford almost freaked out on Corey because he chose to take it 1-on-4 rather than pass to one of the wide-open shooters. Anyway, I had taped the game, and I re-watched it, this time counting the number of times Corey made a successful pass to a teammate. Now, I’m not talking about an assist, just a pass that does not directly result in a turnover. Corey received the opening tip (he started that night) from Biedrins, and he passed it back to Crawford to start the first possession around the 11:52 mark of the 1st quarter. And then I waited. And waited. And waited. For the record, the next time Corey made a successful pass was the 4:00 mark of the 2nd quarter. Maggette played for 13 or 14 minutes of game time and did not make a successful pass of any kind. In between, he made four unsuccessful passes. For the game, Corey played about 35 minutes, and he made a total of 12 successful passes. He had one assist for the game.) And then there are the intangibles. Corey seems to have a very low basketball IQ. I’m not sure he ever knows how much time he has to shoot or where all of his teammates are. How many times have you seen Corey go up for a big rebound, and then dribble the ball off of his foot? How many times does he not get back on D because he is still looking for the foul on the offensive end? There are countless examples of his boneheaded play, but it doesn’t stop MT2 from telling us “it’s mental fortitude on which [Maggette] prides himself most.”
1. Corey Maggette is the embodiment of offensive efficiency in the NBA — Now, I’m not going to get into the stats too much because I usually don’t read much into them, but I do have a quantitative background and have worked many years in statistics (market research, testing and measurement, etc), so I do understand most of them. As we all know, 100% of statistics can be made to say whatever you want, so one must be very careful about throwing numbers around with providing the complete data. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it true that Maggette’s offensive efficiency numbers are so high because he shoots (and makes) a large number of free throws? So, if in one game he shoots 5-9 FGs (no 3s) and 9-10 FTs, Corey has 19 points on 9 FG. This seems extremely efficient until you factor in: A) The charges that Maggette gets called for; B) The turnovers driving to the hoop; C) The number of times the ball is slapped away from Corey (Really? Can a man with biceps the size of thighs not hold onto the damn ball? Where’s the stat on this?); D) The stagnation of the Warrior offense due to the nature of Maggette’s game, and perhaps most importantly; E) The decrease in Maggettes’ teammates offensive efficiency when he is on the court.
Warriors fans boo Maggette because despite all of his God-given talents (“a physique that looks like something cut and pasted from Men’s Health: 6-foot-6, 225 pounds, chiseled and boasting the body fat of a Chihuahua”), he is the most frustrating Warrior to root for. His is an undisciplined, one-dimensional, and fundamentally flawed player, and I have seen little true improvement in his game. And though I know it’s not all his fault, Maggette’s career W-L record when he plays must be abysmal (Can anyone look this up? I could not find it.).
So, Warriors fans, keep booing Corey. At the very least, it shows upper management dissatisfaction with that terrible free-agent signing, so it might prompt a future trade.
by UncleCliffy on Dec 11, 2009 1:15 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
At the very least, it shows upper management dissatisfaction with that terrible free-agent signing
Again, you’re taking it out on a person that’s not responsible and actively hurting the Warriors by creating an environment players don’t want to play in.
His rebounding is solid one game, non-existent the next
If there’s any reason to suspect Corey’s more inconsistent in this regard than other players, I’d be intrigued to see it. What I do know is overall Maggette gets around 6-7 rebounds per 36 minutes, which is not good for a PF (which he is not), but is good for a SF (pretty comparable to Lebron, for instance).
His shot-blocking/altering is horrible despite the fact that he’s an athletic freak
Now, I don’t disagree with your overall points about Corey Maggette’s game outside of scoring, and while he does block shots like a PG…it really isn’t all that important for a wing to block/alter shots, and the difference between the very best and very worst at this is pretty minimal. I do think it’s evidence that helps make the case that he’s a bad defender overall, though (less about the impact of shot blocking and more about the fact that he’s rarely in position to contest shots well, especially on his guy, and thus doesn’t even come up with the occasional block).
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it true that Maggette’s offensive efficiency numbers are so high because he shoots (and makes) a large number of free throws?
This seems extremely efficient until you factor in: A) The charges that Maggette gets called for; B) The turnovers driving to the hoop; C) The number of times the ball is slapped away from Corey
Of course stats can be cherry picked or massaged to give you the answer you want, but people like Onlxn and others tend to be pretty consistent in the way they use the stats (suggesting they aren’t trying to mislead you). You’re correct about the efficiency stats – it includes FTA’s, which does tend to be a pretty consistent skill (getting fouled). I believe charges are counted as a turnover against the individual, though I’m not positive. If it is, we can simply look at his turnover numbers, something we generally do seperately. 2.9 per 36, so not good for sure, especially with his lack of assists, but not current Monta Ellis, either.
The stagnation of the Warrior offense due to the nature of Maggette’s game, and perhaps most importantly; E) The decrease in Maggettes’ teammates offensive efficiency when he is on the court.
Worthwhile points, and something I haven’t really seen anyone give us a lot of evidence for one way or the other. I’m curious about it as well.
by Missing Barry on Dec 11, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
Mag
Again, you’re taking it out on a person that’s not responsible and actively hurting the Warriors by creating an environment players don’t want to play in.
Hmmm….I should have said, “First and foremost, it might wake Corey up as to why he’s never been on a winning team. Second, it might alert the coaching staff that they need to work with Corey on fundamentals instead of just trusting him because he’s a ‘veteran.’ And third, at the very least, it allows the fans an outlet to express displeasure in a ridiculous string of upper managerial decisions.”
If there’s any reason to suspect Corey’s more inconsistent in this regard than other players, I’d be intrigued to see it. What I do know is overall Maggette gets around 6-7 rebounds per 36 minutes, which is not good for a PF (which he is not), but is good for a SF (pretty comparable to Lebron, for instance).
Hmmm..I meant to say, “His rebounding effort is solid one game, non-existent the next.” That is not judged by stats but by watching the games.
Now, I don’t disagree with your overall points about Corey Maggette’s game outside of scoring, and while he does block shots like a PG…it really isn’t all that important for a wing to block/alter shots
Yes, it is very important for a wing to block/alter shots, especially on this team with no center and with PGs without size or great defensive presence. And I notice you don’t make any comparisons to LeBron on this front.
Of course stats can be cherry picked or massaged to give you the answer you want, but people like Onlxn and others tend to be pretty consistent in the way they use the stats (suggesting they aren’t trying to mislead you). You’re correct about the efficiency stats – it includes FTA’s, which does tend to be a pretty consistent skill (getting fouled). I believe charges are counted as a turnover against the individual, though I’m not positive. If it is, we can simply look at his turnover numbers, something we generally do seperately. 2.9 per 36, so not good for sure, especially with his lack of assists, but not current Monta Ellis, either.
Can anyone of the stats gurus on this site tell me which of these two players have greater efficiency?
Player A: 4-4 FGs, 0-0 FTs, 8 points
Player B: 0-0 FGs, 8-8 FTs, 8 points
And I’m still waiting on our career record for Corey in games he has played (The Clippers got hot a few years back when he was hurt). Any guesses on the over/under winning pct? I’ll post it at .392.
And I notice you don’t make any comparisons to LeBron on this front.
Well, he’s not Lebron. Lebron is amazing, Corey is just decent (and overpaid). :)
Even so, the difference between Lebron and Corey is about .5 blocks every 36 minutes. Of all the things Corey is expected to do, that’s a pretty small factor….
Players A and B have equal efficiency – assuming B got his FT’s on 4 possessions where he got fouled (instead of 3 possessions including 2 3PA’s), it took them both 4 possessions to score 8 points, so ceteris paribus, they’re equal.
Also, I’m not sure that using team record against Corey is fair. He’s basically only played for the two worst franchises in basketball – Clippers and Warriors, though he did play for the Magic in his rookie year and they went 41-41 – so it doesn’t seem clear to me that’s he’s part of the problem as much as a an innocent bystander. He did choose to go to the Warriors, so I guess if you hold that against him I won’t complain.
by Missing Barry on Dec 12, 2009 9:19 AM PST up reply actions
Maggs...
I have to say that reading what a lot of people say about Maggette, he could be the most under appreciated offensive player in the league. Look, the guy is not fun to watch. I don’t like his game, but you can’t fault him for taking the occasional jump shot to keep his incredibly effective drive open.
It’s astonishing how often people criticize this one trick pony for his one good trick. You can fault Maggs for a lot of things, but you really can’t say that what he is doing on offense is not effective. If he needs to jack one up every once in a while to keep his man off balance, so be it.
Personally, I could do without watching the guy on a nightly basis. The guy’s game is ugly (and that does matter to me when I watch a game) but you can’t make the leap from ugly player to ineffective player. The guy knows how to score.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
He plays hard and he’s tough. He’s not afraid to take it to the hole no matter who is in there. He has more assists than he’s ever had. I can’t see booing someone who plays hard. If he is not having a good night the coach should pull him, but he shouldn’t get booed.
The problem is he doesn't take it to the whole sometimes and goes for a contested jumpshot
Just like crawford did.
Except unlike Crawford, Corey is an efficient scorer, suggesting even if he should take a few less jumpshots, it’s really not that big of a deal.
by Missing Barry on Dec 12, 2009 9:20 AM PST up reply actions
I actually want Maggs to stay
he gives us the points off the bench that we need and he isn’t small
Fear is the Mind Killer
No way we need to stop "Booing"
Magg’s has been in the league WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too long to not get how to play offense. Being clueless is for the youngsters, not the vets.
MAGGS =
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
That’s all..
Good reasoning. How about you switch your allegiances to the Kings or Lakers, or something.
by Missing Barry on Dec 12, 2009 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
When evaluating the effectiveness of Corey Maggette, you really do have to look at the big picture. You can’t just throw TS% and eFG% out there and call him “one of the most efficient scorers in the game, therefore he is great for our offense.”
It’s pointless to debate how good Corey Maggette is when he’s trying to score the ball. Taken as a whole, whether he’s shooting 20-footers or getting himself to the line, we know he’s efficient. The stats can’t tell us anything different. His game is his game too, and it’s not going to change now no matter how much we post about it.
So if he’s this ultra-efficient scoring-superman, than that means our team must be an offensive juggernaut when he’s in the game. This is where Maggette’s effectiveness gets statistically exposed.
This season, our team scores 106.16 points per 100 possessions when he is playing Without him, we score 106.23 points per 100 possessions. The difference is negligible, and the conclusion is that he doesn’t add much, if anything, to our offensive production as a whole.
What that stat is saying is this: If Corey Maggette stopped playing for us, our team as a whole would score just as much and just as efficiently without him. Increased ball movement. Freer-flowing offense with a more fitting pace. Less isolation plays. More shots for our 3-point specialists. Easier transition baskets because we’d be getting more stops and more rebounds. Whatever you want to reasonably speculate here. The bottom line is that our team doesn’t need him, especially if you take into account how he hurts us on the defensive side. But I don’t even need to go into that.
Does he deserved to be booed though? No, I don’t think he’s bad enough to be booed. But he sure isn’t good enough for our front office to give him that contract. Once again, I can safely say that it’s the FRONT OFFICE’S FAULT.
"We Deserve"
I think you’re on the right track trying to get deeper into the numbers, but I don’t think that’s in depth enough to tell us much. For example, Corey and Morrow almost never play together. According to 82games – our offense scores 9.4 more points per 100 possessions when Morrow is on the court. I’m not exactly sure where/how to get deeper than your analysis, but effects like not playing with the player who seems to help our offense the most needs to be accounted for….
Once again, I can safely say that it’s the FRONT OFFICE’S FAULT.
This. Taking it out on an individual who seems to want to be here, by all accounts is a good presence for the locker room and all that stuff, tries hard, doesn’t complain about being used out of position….it just doesn’t make any sense, and reflects poorly on Warriors fans….
by Missing Barry on Dec 12, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
let me just hop in here late and after it’s been pushed off the front page, so it’s possible no one will read it, but seriously MB, way to take up the good fight here. corey isn’t fun to watch, but he’s a pretty good player and has done next to nothing to deserve the criticism he receives.
yeah, he’s overpaid, and has a nasty case of tunnel vision, but he’s a very effective offensive player who gives solid effort on the defensive end. if the rest of this team were any good, we’d be happy with the performance of a very good sixth man.
honestly, the outrage from our fanbase directed at maggs and the whole hearted homerism thrown at monta and the confusing need to praise moore and vlad for “trying hard” and not being any better or worse here than they were anywhere else confuses me to no end. we’re a bad team, we have bad players, let’s not try to run one of the halfway decent ones out of town.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Dec 13, 2009 6:07 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Maggs still =
BOOOOOOOOOOOO… Everything has already been said and people who don’t like him can boo and people who do like him cause he is an “efficient” player can cheer for him. I personally just don’t like his game, regardless of stats & +/-, and basically just boo him when he takes 3’s or becomes a black hole on the offensive end. That’s all and as a fan everyone is given the opportunity to voice their displeasure when they please, doesn’t make you any less of a fan of the Dubs or any less of a basketball aficianado, if you don’t like the guy you don’t like the guy.
Good jobs by all providing points and counter points but I just don’t agree that because you boo it reflects poorly on you as a fan or it diminishes your basketball knowledge just b/c your going counter to some stats that have been presented.
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