Monta All-Star Discussion? There should be none!
by RO32 on Dec 11, 2009 11:50 PM PST
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PrintHere's a link that Tim Kawakami wrote about Monta's chances of being an all star.
The article states that Monta's chances of being an all-star are 40-45%. My point of emphasis is that it shouldn't even be a discussion. Simple answer is that the W's record gives Monta no business to be an all-star. His scoring is up and his d-has improved....lets not call him a lockdown defender already. But his turnovers seem to be the glaring memories I have of him in games.
Since our joke of a captain got traded, all I hear about is Monta's play as an emerging star...especially from Tim Kawakami who continuously rips on the W's. Honestly, since Monta's been given the keys to run the team, it makes me sick watching them.
I'll give him is credit in areas of his game: He's lightning quick, great ability to score, improved defense, and fearless when he drives to the rim. I never question him giving 100%...Aside from that, his decision making is HORRIBLE. After he averaged almost 40 a couple weeks ago, it was only a matter of time before teams could figure him out. The Lakers were his first test...and he failed. At times when the W's gets stagnant, the ball doesn't move around....he waits for a screen and either shoots the jumper or drives it in no matter how many defenders clog the lane. There is no ball movement when it comes to him.
After watching the Bulls game tonight....I was totally disgusted. Everyone in the arena knew Monta is taking the last shot. I understand the W's are short on talent, but if Monta can get at least two guys on him, kick the ball out!!! Instead, he relies on that jumper that is weak, by the 4th quarter where he has tired legs.
Monta will get his numbers because of the shortage on talent around him. But, if the W's are going to trade him, this is the time to do it. He has the highest value right now. We all know that Monta & Curry cannot share the backourt (you can see it w/Monta's body language and he totally avoids passing it to him). I could see Curry being a leader and running a team with smart decision making. I don't see that w/Monta. You could find scoring 2 guards like him, but more efficient.
As a frustrated Warrior fan, I think we get tunnel vision on the negative things. But, with Monta it's warranted. I'm not remembering the 40 points here and there (any talented player can get that jacking up 25+ shots a game), I remember his horrible decision making and careless turnovers that come out to around 5 a game. I don't know how all of you feel, but if you believe in Monta to get us back to respectability, then you'll be dreaming for another 14 years....TRADE HIM
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Also he is being used wrong, the more Curry handles and learns point in the NBA it will take less pressure of Monta making him not worry doing it all himself which causes turnovers. Most young blossoming stars got through a stage where they think they have to do everything but they all eventually learn. Examples are Melo, Kobe, Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, AI, etc.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
The problem is with Curry
He’s been a major disappointment and it is looking like Ellis was right they can’t play in the same backcourt.
I have found it interesting that the ball moves better when Ellis is handling the ball then it does with Curry. Curry usually has the ball out near the three point line and dribbles to the middle of the lane and stops.
Curry will not drive he just either gets to a spot and gets stuck in which he tries to make a pass out, but there’s too much pressure so it’s a turnover.
Right now C.J. Watson should be starting!
How has Curry been a disappointment?
He was a 7th overall pick in a supposedly weak draft class.
You just expected too much of him out of the gate.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 12, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions
I have found it interesting that the ball moves better when Ellis is handling the ball then it does with Curry.
Either you and I are watching different games, or by “ball movement” you mean the distance the ball covers in one person’s hands. Curry handled the ball most of the game against the Nets and we looked like a team.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 12, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
It's not getting better...
Even when beidrins, turiaf come back. Look at our rotation. We will have front court depth with no real wings and no other player you feel comfortable with the ball in there hands.
we don't have that player besides Monta period.
Buike, Bell..Spot up shooters, but they can’t create.
As a frustrated Warrior fan, I think we get tunnel vision on the negative things. But, with Monta it's warranted.
I lol’d…
But I do agree with the majority of the content in the post. The only part I really disagree with is the idea that Monta and Curry together cannot work. I think it is a fine backcourt that is not being utilized correctly. I would have no problem with trading Monta and letting Curry – Morrow be our backcourt though.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 12, 2009 1:22 AM PST reply actions
see.....thats what i dont like
that someone gets picked not based on how good they are but more so the record of their team…..and u guys DEFINITELY NEED to stop hating on Monta….i used to get angry with the turnovers and stuff….but u just got to realize how many people we have on the team….and how hard he plays every night….and even then he’s ONLY 24….he’s really not a seasoned seasoned veteran…he’s still learning….the whole damn team is young….why are u blaming them
by Morrow is wet!!! on Dec 12, 2009 9:46 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
+1
Thank you, stop hating on Monta
OWENS! OWENS! OWENS! OWENS!
- Joe Starkey
by 9ersDubsGiantSharks on Dec 12, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed.
And the Ellis worshippers are equally outrageous.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Dec 13, 2009 7:01 AM PST up reply actions
Come on now
Ellis is da man! Did you not hear what Kobe said? He’s underrated because he doesn’t windmill dunk over everybody.
Simple Answer
Simple answer is that the W’s record gives Monta no business to be an all-star.
The simple answer is that when you’re fifth in your conference in scoring, tenth in assists and first in steals, you deserve recognition.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 12, 2009 2:04 PM PST reply actions
Yes but
If your not on highlight reels every night, people who are not Warrior fans wont vote for him.
All star game is kind of a joke in that people usually vote for what a player did last season and not for what there doing now.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
Reserve
Ellis won’t start, but he can be a reserve if the coaches put him in. Right now, behind Bryant and Nash, Ellis deserves it the most at the guard spot. He has been more impressive than Roy and Paul has been hurt.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 12, 2009 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
how has monta been more impressive than roy? roy scores much more efficiently and about as often, he is the better passer and rebounder and unless you want to say that the improvement in monta’s defense is enough to bridge that gap, i don’t see how you can argue in his favor.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Roy has been disspointing this year
Even Blazer fans are frustrated with him sometimes. Just go look over at Blazersedge. They think he is soft.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
BEdgers being disappointed that roy hasn’t played as well as they hoped doesn’t change the fact that he’s still playing better than monta.
all this “monta is a superstar” is confusing to me. if he was a legitimately great player, we’d be frustrated with his production to this point. all he’s done is score in volume. he’s been inefficient (and ‘07-’08 is starting to look more and more like an outlier in that regard), turning the ball over a ridiculous amount for the amount of passing he does and has just now started to play respectable defense. he really hasn’t played that well this year.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
being disappointed that roy hasn’t played as well as they hoped doesn’t change the fact that he’s still playing better than monta.
The one game I saw roy against the warriors montay schooled him?
If Montay actually has the numbers he deserves a spot on the team despite the team record, it’s an all star game not an all team game.
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 14, 2009 8:37 PM PST up reply actions
The fact that we only have 6 players....
its what pisses me off when people complain about Monta. He’s handling most of the offense since Curry hasn’t found his shot and is scared to take it to the rack.
Morrow has been off and Vlad’s decision making can be horrid at times.
And let’s even get to Maggette.
We’re a young team. He deserves to be an All-Star. He’s putting up the best stats of his career and is giving it 110% night in and night out.
Jack was one of the real reasons why Monta didn’t have so many turnovers. Jack was the main focus for defenses which freed up Monta. Curry doesn’t handle the ball like Jack so you should expect his turnover numbers to sky rocket.
Know who's second in the league in TOs?
Steve Nash.
It happens when you’re a PG. You’re the star, you’re the point running the show on a crappy team that plays about 10-20 more possessions a game than other teams, and you play a ridiculously high 41 minutes per game, you’re going to have a lot of turnovers. simple as that.
turnovers should not be a factor.
As for the wins, I don’t think that should be a huge factor either. Yes, wins should help you, but I see no reason why a player averaging good numbers playing beside Mikki Moore, Anthony Morrow, CJ Watson and Stephen Curry should get snubbed for the all-star team in favor of a guy like, say, Andrew Bynum playing alongside Ron Artest, Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol and Derek Fisher.
the funny thing is, per 36, nash averages more TOs than monta, but nearly triple the assists. it’s bound to happen to point guards, but come on, monta’s passing has been abysmal this year. don’t say it comes with the territory when he’s sitting at an assist to turnover ratio that is barely better than 1:1.
nash has also been a fantastic scorer this year while monta has been well below average in terms of efficiency. monta has been scoring a lot, but he hasn’t been doing it efficiently at all and outside of his improved defense (still not exactly lock down) really doesn’t bring much to the table besides volume scoring. he shouldn’t be in the all-star discussion. not until he starts playing a lot better.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
I agree with your post
Monta Ellis should be traded at the deadline when his value is the highest. Because he’s putting up such crazy stat lines lately, maybe we can get someone really good for him.
I’m still not convinced in his abilities as a PG. He’s not a willing enough passer, not a good enough ball-handler, and yet he dominates the ball. His USG% for the year is 29.3, yet his AST% is only 21.1. By comparison, Steve Nash’s USG% 23.3 (less than Monta’s) and his AST% is 52.4.
You can’t say Nash turning it over is similar to how Monta turns it over. Nash is turning it over because he’s out there making plays as a PG. Monta turns it over by dribbling the ball off his foot or losing it out of bounds.
To his credit, his defensive intensity has improved. If he wants to be an effective SG in this league, he has to bring that same effort night in and night out for the rest of his career. I just don’t see that happening.
He doesn’t have the natural instincts or basketball IQ to be a point guard. He doesn’t have the size or complete package to compete as a SG (like Dwyane Wade). Keep in mind there are other tweener shooting guards who can score even more effectively (Ben Gordon, 55% career TS%) (Leandro Barbosa, 58% career TS%) (Monta Ellis, 54% career TS%) and aren’t even considered good SG’s in this league. They’re barely borderline starters.
Let’s not delude ourselves here. Let’s sell high.
"We Deserve"
To who?
Aside from the moped incident, Monta has improved and is the best player on the team. Who can we get for Monta for a better value?
That is the $11 million dollar question.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 13, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe not a better value
But maybe a better fit and similar value? We do have alot of other glaring weaknesses on this squad.
"We Deserve"
Monta is not one of those weaknesses
Our main weakness is an inside presence, post scoring, rebounding, defense against monster centers etc. Monta is great as a SG. We have Curry to be PG. Why get rid of someone that’s good. The only way I would trade him is for a great SF, PF or center.
Oh hey good job on comparing STEVE NASH to MONTA ELLIS
who are not even close to being in similar positions in all areas.
1) Nash is a PG, Monta is not.
2) Every single starter on Nash’s team is better than anybody on Warriors except for Ellis
3) Nash is the worst defender in the league at his position to a point where if you play against him you have a career night (sort of like playing against Warriors except easier)
4) Nash is a veteran, 2 time MVP, 10 (i think) time all-star, one of the best PG’s in history
5) Monta is a 4 (3.5) year player coming off a big injury. He has never been the #1 option on offense. He’s 24.
yeah.
Someone needs a little help with the reading comprehension. Notice the two posts above mine which discuss the turnovers by Ellis and by Nash. I didn’t start the comparison.
1) I wrote that whole comment explaining why Monta is not a good PG. Thanks for restating my own bullet point as an argument against me. That really makes sense.
2) What does that have to do with Monta’s flaws as a player?
3) & 4) Contradict each other. I don’t even know how to respond to that. Well done.
5) He sure is.
"We Deserve"
#3 or #4 don't contradict each other
since all you did is compare offensive stats not including PPG, points inside, assisted points etc which are Ellis’ strongest stats, not including defense.
Except that Ellis isn’t even scoring his points efficiently….
by Missing Barry on Dec 13, 2009 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
Can you show me one guy who scores his points efficiently
with so little talent around him
+The only people who average more than him with better efficiency are Kobe and Wade with Wade only being 1.2 TS% away. Add all the superstar calls that Wade gets to Monta’s and you have same PPG and same TS%. (semi-realistically speaking)
wade is also playing his worst season in terms of scoring efficiency ever. he did more with less last year and has been above average in scoring efficiency every year except his rookie season.
monta had one very good season for scoring efficiency, one average season, one injury wrecked season and one bad season (his rookie year). this year, he’s below average again, and it’s really hard to say that his one excellent year isn’t an outlier. i have no idea what to make of monta’s ability to score the ball efficiently, and it looks like we’ve overrated him in this regard.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Eh I don’t know that his good year is an outlier. We haven’t really seen enough to know. Last year he was hurt, so those numbers are really suspect when it comes to telling us his true ability. His first 3 years in the leaue he did show good progress in a skill that does tend to progress like that. We’re still only a quarter of the way through this season….I don’t think there’s really strong evidence for either side to make a confident statement about his future production…
by Missing Barry on Dec 14, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
….I don’t think there’s really strong evidence for either side to make a confident statement about his future production…
which is a much clearer way of making the point i was trying to make. all i’m saying is that it’s awfully risky to assume that monta will return to his form as an efficient, volume scorer.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
I am confident he’ll get more efficient than he is now, but I do agree that I’m not sure he’ll get back to being good in that aspect of things….
by Missing Barry on Dec 14, 2009 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
Um, yes. Why don’t we just take a cruise down 80 to our fellow Northern Californians in Sactown and ask them. Kevin Martin? Yes, yes he is one of the most efficient scoring wings in the league, and has been since 2005-2006.
The only people who average more than him with better efficiency are Kobe and Wade
? Not sure what criteria you’re using, but using PPG as the criteria, here are the players that average more PPG than Ellis:
Carmelo, Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Nowitzky, Wade.
Here are the players in that group that are more efficient than Ellis:
Carmelo, Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Nowitzky, Wade.
The first player on the list that doesn’t score more efficiently than Ellis is rookie Brandon Jennings, the #12 player on the list. Basically, that’s a fat cherry pick. Not having talent around you doesn’t mean you can’t, and shouldn’t, score efficiently. Morrow, Maggette, Watson, Azubuike (before he got hurt) have all been scoring at well above average efficiency this year. Curry has been average. Mikki Moore has been well above average (though he doesn’t serve the point I’m about to make). This suggests that any negative effect on Monta’s efficiency there is from him shouldering a bigger load…well, he shouldn’t be shooting too much. We have other options who should be getting more shots than they are. Monta Ellis shooting as much as he does right now is not as good for the Warriors as passing up some of those shots to players that score at a higher efficiency than he does.
by Missing Barry on Dec 14, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
This is why he plays shooting guard
Curry is the point. Getting rid of Monta is getting rid of the heart and soul of the team. Sorry but losing him is idiotic.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
FYI: Ellis is not as good as Deron Williams. If you want to argue that one, you will have to do it by yourself.
seriously, i really hate this guy. i have tried so many times to accept him as an informed, local sports journalist, which he is, but he’s just an ass! his writing and commentary always reflect a contempt for the warriors and their fans. what is the point of arguing that williams is better than monta? they are vastly different players. one is a slow bruiser that looks to pass first, the other is one of the quickest players of all time and has more points in the paint at 6’2" than dwight howard!
clearly kawkami prefers traditional point gaurds to super scorers like monta. the question is, why does he think we care about his preference? the article is supposed to be about ellis, not williams. personally, i think williams is lame and overrated. the only reason he is a notable player is the incredible shortage of legitimate point guards in the NBA of late. he’s a worse shooting derrick fisher with more of a green light to shoot.
nelson rules! kawakami sucks!
the public option is a pathetic compromise. death to the insurance companies!!!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Dec 13, 2009 4:39 PM PST reply actions
he’s a worse shooting derrick fisher with more of a green light to shoot.
this is just false. derek fisher has never once achieved even an average scoring efficiency, williams has been well above that mark for the last 3 years. and he’s done it while being an exceptional passer (derek fisher really doesn’t pass much for a supposed “traditional pg”), and a better defender than fisher. that comparison is just silly.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Except Williams is just the opposite of that. He’s a decent defender, a great passer, scores at a fairly high rate, but more importantly, does so efficiently, which is more than the current Monta can say. Frankly, your take on Williams is completely and utterly wrong. Just peak at his stats – they pretty much say the exact opposite of what you claim.
by Missing Barry on Dec 13, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
Not so bad for my first post...
I read this website all the time to see what other Warrior fans have to say. When I wrote the original post, some of it was just anger from another Warrior loss (a feeling us Warrior fans should be use to). I wanted to see what your thoughts were. After reading what all of you have posted, it seems split down the middle on this topic.
First of all, let me say that I’m not a Monta hater. I know my post makes it seem like it, but the truth is I respect his game. He’s not the reason the W’s are on the way to another losing season (that’s a different topic that relates to ownership)
However, I just don’t think you can make him the centerpiece of a franchise. He proved that after the moped incident. After reading the posts, I read that “he’s young” or " the guy is only 24." That’s true, but remember, this is his 5th season in the league already.
Monta is going to have the best statistical year of his career this season. He’s starting to get national attention with articles on ESPN and Yahoo Sports. His PPG and STL/G are up there in league leaders….but that is the only comparison you could put him with guys like Lebron, Kobe, D-Wade. I laughed at the Nash vs. Monta comparison. And then you guys posted some efficiency numbers out there.
I don’t know where Monta ranks as far as efficiency (look up Hollinger on ESPN), but we can’t put him in the class of Lebron, Kobe, or Wade. Those guys are in a class of their own. As a matter of fact, we can’t put 95% of the players in the league in their class. Although Monta, could win a game here and there on his own, those guys could carry their team to the playoffs. There is no variable with them, no matter who’s on their team…they can get it done. My point is, don’t compare him to those guys.
Our concerns with Monta was more on the defensive side of the ball…well he has shown he could handle guarding opposing 2 guards. The concern is with TEAM offense now. Someone brought up a point that he wasn’t being used right. When Baron was here, he didn’t have to handle the ball and it was off to the races once we got a rebound. It’s not like that anymore. Monta brings the ball up, or he becomes a 1-man fastbreak when he gets the rebound. The W’s offense sees more halfcourt sets now…well more of monta dribbling for 10 seconds and taking it to the rack or a pull-up jumper…that is what i can’t stand watching!!
YaHeard made a point about the trade value of Monta’s value. I think it was perfectly said as far as similar value. The truth is, the Warriors probably wouldn’t get someone as talented as Monta in return. If you trade him to Tornonto for Bosh…odds of Bosh staying are slim to none (same with Amare). But, the one thing about Monta is that he’s the best tradeable asset on the team. His value will never be higher… his value would be lower if he were on any other team in the league.
If you trade Monta, the points will come from somewhere else and the ball would move around better. I don’t know who they get in return, but I’m sure they could get solid players with better basketball IQ. Monta is rare for a player with the speed and his scoring would be missed, but that just gives someone else an opportunity to step up.
I don’t think the organization has any direction and when Nellie is gone…what’s the philosophy going to be?? I just can’t imagine Monta here for another 4 years. I hope he’s traded before his frustrations get the best of him and he makes trade requests.
I didn’t realize the W’s had the 4th worst record in the league..If they lose tonight to Philly (3rd worst) should we start thinking about the John Wall sweepstakes??? I don’t care if we have Curry…I’d take him if we had the chance….thanks for your responses though. The one thing we have in common is that we’re all Warrior fans…Hopefully we don’t wait another 14 years until the playoffs
If they lose tonight to Philly (3rd worst) should we start thinking about the John Wall sweepstakes???
Nah – we might be out of contention for the playoffs, but once our bigs get healthy, we’ll be a significantly better team than we are now. We still have most of the season to play.
I’m still unsure why some fans seem to be down on Monta’s basketball IQ. His vision isn’t great, his passing needs work, I agree. I also think he shoots too much. But he does have a pretty good feel for the game. I’ll point to the fact that he gets so many steals despite his T-Rex arms (and he does play some man defense so it’s not all about gambling and getting lucky, unlike…say….Iverson) – aside from being quick, he does actually anticipate plays well, both on offense and on defense. Offensively, he has the ball in his hands more, so he doesn’t get to display it as much, but he’s a fantastic cutter. He has a good feel for when to cut, what angle to take, he reads his defender well off the ball….again, that says good basketball IQ to me.
I also think one of his biggest detriments to his vision/passing is his poor ballhandling – it’s why he turns it over so much, and it’s a reason why his primary option is scoring when he has the ball – he just doesn’t have good enough control over what he’s doing to be able to drive, while still a threat to score, read the court/defense/offense (needs his head up to do this), and make the proper decision. Not that he’d be Steve Nash out there with improved ball handling, but I do think it would make a very noticeable difference in his ability to distribute more as opposed to driving to shoot.
Learn to dribble with your left hand already Monta. And stop bouncing the ball up to your chest. Ugh.
by Missing Barry on Dec 14, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
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