C.J. Watson should be starting over Curry
by Rocky63215 on Dec 12, 2009 12:28 PM PST
Email
Print
One of the best moves made by Keith Smart last night was the insertion of C.J. Watson into the game for Stephen Curry. While, Curry continues to struggle offensively and defensively, Watson has done more to help the Warriors at both end of the court.
At this point in the season it's clear that Watson needs to be inserted into the starting lineup for the Warriors. At this point Watson is clearly the better player then Curry. Watson averages about 24 minutes per game for the Warriors this season and he is currently averaging 9.2 points per game, 2 assists, 2.4 rebounds, 1.5 steals per game, and .8 turnovers per game.
Looking at the Watson's stats per 36 minutes he's at 13.8 points per game, 3 assists per game, 3.8 rebounds per game, 2.3 steals per game, and 1.2 turnovers per game.
Curry's stats so far this season 10.9 points per game, 4.7 assists per game, 3.3 rebounds per game, 1.6 steals per game, and 2.6 turnovers.
Per 36 minutes Curry is at 12.4 points per game, 5.3 assists per game, 3.8 rebounds per game, 1.9 steals per game, and 3 turnovers per game.
Also, what's not noted in the stats is the shooting percentages and this is one of the main reasons why Watson should be starting instead of Curry. Watson right now is the more consistent player offensively meaning he is the one that will be hitting the jumpers that Curry was supposed to be making, Watson at this moment is also better at getting to the rim as well meaning excellent chances for free throws and even three point plays.
The numbers prove it, Watson is shooting 52.8 percent from the field, 42.1 percent from beyond the arc, and 85 percent from the line. Curry on the other hand is shooting 44.5 percent from the field, 35.4 percent from three, and 80 percent from the free throw line
Since, Watson returned to the lineup following his bout with the Swine flu which was eight games ago, not count the appearance in San Antonio. Watson has averaged 13.3 points per game, 2.5 assists per game, 4.1 rebounds per game, 2.5 steals per game, and 1.1 turnovers per game.
Curry on the other hand since the return of Watson in those eight games has averaged 12 points per game, 3.8 assists per game, 3.7 rebounds per game, 2 steals per game, and 2.5 turnovers per game.
Also, since Watson has returned he provided another scorer along with Monta Ellis. I believe that if Ellis had Watson to stretch the floor he would have someone to pass to in the corner for a three that would actually take the shot instead of passing up the shot.
I think what makes Watson the better choice as a starer is that he understands what he can and he cannot do. Curry is learning on the go how to play the point guard position.
With Curry coming off the bench it would also allow for the Warriors to be able to rest Ellis more instead of having him play nearly 48 minutes a night. While, Ellis is out of the lineup Curry can man the point guard position while Watson plays the shooting guard role.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
84 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
No he shouldn't
The reason is simple: Curry is part of our future and can improve much more from the additional playing time than watson. CJ will not be a warrior next season when his contract expires. We have too many players who play his position and he doesn’t want to be here because he can’t get consistent playing time. Moreover, Curry is our most willing passer which the warriors need desperately even if he turns it over a ton. CJ is best suited for a 6th man role like he is now where he can come in against the other team’s bench and get some steals, score for our team when monta sits, etc.
Now vlad and moore starting, thats another story…..
LGW
Well said.
"I never watched baseball on TV. It's slow and boring. I'm not a fan. Never was." - Jeff Kent
Until
Curry starts making better decisions with basketball, as in stop telegraphing his passes he should be on the bench!
what’s the point? CJ isn’t going to be here after next season at the latest (when he can become unrestricted). He’s already stated via twitter he wants out.
and is starting CJ going to make them a playoff contender? no. you basically want them to give Curry less experience so they can eek out a few more wins which will end up giving them a worse draft pick. it’s the same with Randolph not playing.
1/4 of the season is already done & San Antonio is 9th right now at 11-9 (pace of 45 wins). Dubs would have to go 38-22 (.633) just to get to 45 wins.
they need to take a page from OKC & Sac and play the youth to get them more experience and reap the benefits afterward.
I think...
what’s the point? CJ isn’t going to be here after next season at the latest (when he can become unrestricted). He’s already stated via twitter he wants out.
The point is to not gift wrap minutes to the still-unproven Curry.
A couple days ago, I think I would have agreed that he is a part of the future, he should play, CJ won’t be back yadidya….
But, Curry just isn’t very productive right now. He’s showed flashes, but nothing consistent and usually not outside of garbage time. He’s playing without a killer instinct. But he probably is just taking a back-seat to Monta. It’s not Steph’s team. I don’t think he knows how to play as a sidekick.
and is starting CJ going to make them a playoff contender? no. you basically want them to give Curry less experience so they can eek out a few more wins which will end up giving them a worse draft pick. it’s the same with Randolph not playing.
Either way it’s showing that it doesn’t make much of a difference. We still lose consistently. Keith Smart is not a good coach. He can’t bring out the most in players and for some reason is giving AR less consistent minutes than Nellie has.
they need to take a page from OKC & Sac and play the youth to get them more experience and reap the benefits afterward.
We’ve shown that we won’t do that. Nellie’s under pressure to play Maggette, Monta and Andris the minutes they play because they make so much money. I think Mikki Moore starting is a product of not wanting to let AR have free unregulated reign. He definitely needs to learn what he can and can’t do on the court and sloooww down. I think Nellie likes AR in general, they’ve shown some incremental development in their relationship. I don’t know why Smart doesn’t want AR to play major minutes.
Additional** My theory so far on AR’s inconsistent minutes this season could possibly be explained by the level in which Nellie is in tank mode. Last year post All-Star AR got major minutes…but we were in major tank mode by then. So far I don’t think we’re in full-blown tank mode just yet.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
by kenntoe on Dec 12, 2009 11:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He’s showed flashes, but nothing consistent and usually not outside of garbage time.
A lack of consistency is common in young players. Does sending Curry to the bench in a season that is unlikely to progress much above “we suck” help him gain consistency? Will the change in personnel change the team’s fortunes that much such that we’d notice?
Nellie’s under pressure to play Maggette, Monta and Andris the minutes they play because they make so much money.
Maggette’s minutes are down from last year quite a bit. Given the level of injuries the team has had, this is especially telling. Nellie seemed somewhat reluctant to play Andris as much as he could when he was healthy. Given that he was one of two guys on the team who could be counted on to rebound and that this team has incredible problems rebounding, I’m not sure that management pressure to play him wouldn’t be a great idea.
Nellie’s under pressure to field 8 guys healthy enough to suit up for games much of the time. I question his lineups. Randolph has been producing and should play more. Smart’s handling of him has been terrible. Moore should play less. But too much analysis ignores the level of injury that the team has had. “Analysis” that suggests that Maggs is playing because of his contract when his minutes are down or that comments on some imaginary pressure to play Biedrins seems far-fetched.
I can’t see how playing Randolph more puts us into take mode if he’s taking minutes away from Moore. We’re a better team, much better, with Randolph playing.
Even though Maggette’s minutes has been down, he’s still 4th on the team in total minutes (565) played, above AR (457), but below Morrow (699). Surprising that Mr. GQ is second to Monta at 733 minutes played.
I think they established Corey in that 6th man role last year and want him to play 28-30 or so minutes nightly to protect his body. Nelson also just seems resigned to let Corey be Corey, in a he is what he is sort of way.
I do not think Nellie likes AB very much. AB is still too limited for Nellie’s liking. He’ll never be the stretch the floor center he covets on offense or the big defender/shot blocker on defense.
Nellie’s under pressure to field 8 guys healthy enough to suit up for games much of the time.
I doubt there’s much pressure on Nellie to do anything. He’d just as gladly walk away. The real person under fire is Coach Keith Smart. He’s the one trying to get this team to win and failing utterly at it. He is less willing to give Curry those gift minutes, which he really doesn’t deserve so far. He wants his team to play good defense, and Curry right now just gets overmatched, fouls too much, and can’t make up for it yet on offense. I’m not saying he won’t do these things in the near future, I’m just saying let him learn and feel like he has to earn his minutes. I sure hope he doesn’t get the whole AR mistreatment though…
Randolph has been producing and should play more.
I can’t believe I’m writing this but…when Nellie comes back, AR’s minutes might become more consistent. Nellie has seemed more agreeable to put AR out there, and keep him out there if he’s playing good. If he isn’t well it’s back to the bench. Smart on the other hand is a complete dufus for wasting AR right now. I cite his great game against the Nets, he only played 20 minutes with a stat line of: 11pts (4-7FG), 3-3 FT’s, 9 Reb (5 OReb), 4 AST, 1 STL, 3 BLK, 3 Fouls. Pretty good production. His last three games now he’s seen 20 minutes or less.
Not to mention that Smart refuses to play Chris Hunter over Mikki Moore. Although this could be because Nellie is ordering him not to do so (who know’s).
But too much analysis ignores the level of injury that the team has had.
And blaming this mess only on injury is a mistake imo as well. We’ve got a lot of talented players, but we’ve got no team. We were doomed from the start with Jax’ antics that just got blown out of proportion. Thanks Jax. Andris and Ronny coming back isn’t going to help us on offense. Our problem like all of us already know is management. They’ve left us with a whole lot of talented but unproven players and no one can hold a candle to Ellis right now.
I can’t see how playing Randolph more puts us into take mode if he’s taking minutes away from Moore. We’re a better team, much better, with Randolph playing.
It won’t make us worse, but it probably would make us more inconsistent. So far playing AR at the 5 has it’s benefits on offense with the right matchup, but any bigman with skill and a body outmatches AR defensively. He was pretty good against Howard, but Howard doesn’t have a great low post arsenal. All he does is back you down.
We’re going around in circles here with the whole “Coaches are holding AR back” or “AR’s wildness is holding him back”. It’s probably a mixture of both. AR doesn’t seem to have that maturity level yet to handle being benched. As evidenced by his frustration at the beginning of the year. I can’t find the article but he said something like “It’s like I’m a rookie again”. He didn’t like being benched for his play after his great summer of dominance.
We all love AR for his energy, ferociousness and mean-mugging facial expressions…but his ego might be what puts off the coaches and thus allows them to make excuses and to allow Mikki Freakin’ Moore to start over him. Cohan and Rowell are idiots, but I don’t consider Nelson to be an idiot. He knows AR is tons better than Mikki right now, it’s just that you can’t hand AR free unregulated reign right now because it might turn him into a different kind of ball player down the road. Get him under control now, so that next year he plays the game just as hard and under control.
Once again, I can’t believe i’m saying it, but Smart is jerking AR around more than Nellie is this year.
Thanks for the response JAE.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Not to mention that Smart refuses to play Chris Hunter over Mikki Moore.
OK, I think this is much more a case of the grass is always greener. It’s a real small sample, but there’s really nothing in that sample to suggest that we’d get anything more from Hunter. Moore has been a terrible rebounder, and he’s been a shade better than Hunter. Small sample size might explain a bit, but nothing suggests that Hunter is going to be anything other than a warm body stiff, and quite probably, a pretty terrible player in his own. Moore is at least a reasonably efficient offensive zero, better than Hunter. When you’ve got two zeros, I can’t fault him for going with the zero he feels more comfortable with.
(For all those “playing on the Warriors inflates a big’s rebounding stats because there’s no one else to get the boards” believers. Why is Moore’s rebounding rate at a career low, significantly below what it was last year when he was more or less at his career average? How come his rebounding totals aren’t being “padded”? And why is Hunter even worse?)
Have you, or anyone else, done any research on how D-league numbers translate to the NBA? Especially for rebounding, which seems like it should translate at some fairly consistent rate – Hunter did pull down over 10 boards per 36 in the D-league, I’d expect some sort of downward adjustment (and maybe even a significant one), but just my own guess is that should tell us a lot more about Hunter’s rebounding ability than his numbers in the NBA so far (and that he’s much better than his numbers so far indicate). For instance, Hunter did pull down about 1.5 more rebounds per 36 in the D-league than Moore has in his D-league time….
by Missing Barry on Dec 13, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
I haven’t looked into the predictive value of d-league stats, though the value of college stats is reasonable, albeit far from perfect. He was a less than adequate rebounding college big. He may well be better than his limited time has presented him as. I doubt very much that he’s actually good at it though, and has a reasonable chance of being pretty lousy. His D-league stats don’t stack up to what Patrick O’Bryant was doing in the D-league, for whatever that’s worth.
If the NBDL is anything like the old CBA, it’s a guards’ league, in large part because the scarcity of guys 6-10 and over who are coordinated enough to tie own shoes is so limited that they all tend to be on NBA rosters already. The athletic raw talent to play at the NBA is pretty high. Couple in having to be tall enough to play in the interior and that cuts it down to fewer guys than are on NBA rosters. Guards? More people are tall enough in general meaning that more people with the raw athletic skills are probably out there than NBA clubs accurately identify each year. I’m not at all surprised that there are guard gems found out of the D-league. The number of big men who have made a splash after starting in the CBA was pretty small. I suspect that it will remain similarly true of the D-league.
OK, I think this is much more a case of the grass is always greener.
I’m increasingly inclined to agree with this… it doesn’t hurt that Mikki’s played his best ball of the season this week and that Hunter hasn’t contributed much of late. Hunter has shown enough defending the post that I think he’s probably a tad more useful, and I’d rather see him anyway because I think a youth movement is in order, but replacing Moore with Hunter wouldn’t be a panacea.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
Props for the ballsy post
Not too many people on this site are going to be in agreement just because of the favor Curry has aquired from his college career. I do believe that right now CJ would help win more games overall by getting more minutes, but the question is: Is management looking at making the playoffs still? If Smart is starting CJ over Curry, then the answer is yes, or else he’s just trying to rack up some wins to make him look like a capable coach (replacement).
Lots of talent and potential, but not incredibly effective. Point is Curry has a lot to learn, and he will do that faster playing against other NBA players, but like having Randolph in for 40min/game its not necessarily going to help win. Like it or not, CJ is pretty much a veteran player now, and if you guys don’t remember, he led the DLeague in scroing for a while.
Anthony Randoph for Most Improved Player
I don't like Curry as a player right now
There I said it
Thank You
Eventually Curry is going to start playing better, but I think he’s better off the bench right now.
Curry has a future at GSW
CJ has a future being trade fodder.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
I believe that if Ellis had Watson to stretch the floor he would have someone to pass to in the corner for a three that would actually take the shot instead of passing up the shot.
Ah, of course. That Morrow guy always passes up those threes.
With Curry coming off the bench it would also allow for the Warriors to be able to rest Ellis more instead of having him play nearly 48 minutes a night.
How does that work? Curry coming off the bench magically makes it so the Warriors have more guards in their rotation?
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 12, 2009 1:43 PM PST reply actions
lol rocky is so funny
theres a difference between saying CJ is playing better than Curry right now and simply saying that than Rocky saying a bunch of jibberish why. How is CJ going to spread the floor so much better than Curry? I haven’t seen any evidence to that. And some how playing Curry off the bench makes more guard depth. Really, Rocky?
You make so many meaningless ranting posts that just spam the site and it ruins the quality of the site. Stop making posts everyday about something meaningless.
Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan
I have
Curry never takes the corner three, whereas Watson does. Which is a better percentage 42 percent from distance or 35 percent?
Curry never takes the corner three
What’s funny about this was that right after it was said, during the Pistons game, two of Curry’s three made 3s were from the corner.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 13, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
We absolutely should be starting CJ right now, but only so we can raise his visibility for trading purposes. While he probably is better than Curry right now, he’s also not likely to be here next year… his main value to us is as a trade chip. Some contender or another will come looking for backcourt help at some point, and the more CJ’s playing, the more appealing he’ll look. Once CJ’s gone, Curry can take over again. And if he struggles, he struggles. We’re not going anywhere, and he doesn’t seem like the type who’ll learn bad habits simply from playing.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
We absolutely should be starting CJ right now, but only so we can raise his visibility for trading purposes.
Isn’t it a bit early to start doing that though? A trade would probably happen near the deadline, unless you think that they already have something in the works with the players that become available on the 15th.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 12, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
It may be a bit early… on the other hand, a struggling team like Philly or Utah or Miami might feel like they need a boost right now. It certainly can’t hurt that he’s getting big minutes right now, and he and Curry will both play a lot anyway; I think giving him a little “starter” sheen starting now would be worthwhile.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
sorry to say, i don’t think raising CJ’s trade value will amount to much. and he’ll be just as visible at 18-20 minutes as he is at 35 minutes.
imo, it’s more important to get Curry (& Randolph) as much game experience as possible than whatever upgrade they may get on a trade from CJ playing 35 min a game.
by homer simpson on Dec 12, 2009 9:08 PM PST up reply actions
True.
You could say that about Curry, not so sure about Randolph anymore (I’m starting to change my tune there).
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
***CURRY IS THE FUTURE***
The sooner this becomes Curry’s team the better the future will be, He is head and shoulders better than CJ or Monte when it comes to seeing the floor and running the point…
This reminds me of Monte’s rookie year, he was left out of many of the plays and had to earn his way up the ladder…
I would start Curry and leave him in the final min so he can develop, the more playing time he gets the better he is going to get….I see him playing to tentative right now because he is feeling if he miises a couple shots he’s going to let the team down, All he has to do is look at Monte and keep shooting…
I was disappointed that Morrow didn’t keep shooting last night, I don’t care if he goes 0-5 in the end the more he shoots those numbers will even out….he’s not streaky he’s consistent, I would rather lose with Morrow shooting and Curry running the team than lose with Monte takeing all the clutch shots because that’s not his game….He can get us there but those guys have to step up and finish it…
Look to the future right now and don’t be hard on the players, there giving it there all and were short handed…these loses mean nothing because were not going anywhere this year…we need to realize that healthy with one or two moves by next year with a great draft pick we will be solid…
Curry is a winner, he will succeed because it’s in his blood to…..We should also be putting our stock in AR for the same reasons…
The season is over guys
Whether you want to believe it or not. It is better for the Warrior’s long term future for Curry, as well as Randolph, to be a good player and get experience. I have nothing but love for CJ but he’s not going to be here long. Even if you think playing CJ more than Curry will help us win a few more games this season, WHO CARES? We’re not getting to the playoffs anyways so WHO CARES? I’d rather have Curry get more comfortable on the court and be ready to take the leading role next year with a full team and our new lottery pick than win 35 games this year and be in the same position next year. It’s the truth
by Throw up the Dub on Dec 12, 2009 3:02 PM PST reply actions
I'd rather see this team
Right now play with a sense of purpose, show improvement, and do the best job possible. I do not give into the notion that the season is over. It’s 22 games into an 82 game season with 60 games remaining.
Right now the Warriors are only 5.5 games from a playoff spot. Injuries have been a common theme in the NBA this year. I’d rather hold onto some kind of hope then just say oh 22 games in the season and we’re done.
Secondly, what’s the point of being in the lottery when John Wall is more than likely going to be the number one pick. If the Warriors get the number one pick what will they do trade it or trade Curry?
Move Curry into CJ's role
develop him a little and trade him for good value.
Wall + Ellis would be the backcourt of the future.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 12, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions
John Wall
I wouldn’t hold my breath. He’ll be gone inside the top two whereas we’d be picking around sixth at best unless there’s some sort of lottery miracle.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 12, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
Oh no
Not that I expect Wall, just answering his last question of “If the Warriors get the number one pick what will they do trade it or trade Curry?”
I would love Wall, but I’ve accepted that it’s extremely unlikely to get him.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 12, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
If the Warriors get the number one pick what will they do trade it or trade Curry?
That would be a nice problem to have….
Also, no reason Wall can’t play off the ball.
by Missing Barry on Dec 12, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
LOL
wall play off the ball…on the warriors??? he would instantly be the best PG on the team…
trade curry + andris + fillers for bosh!
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Dec 12, 2009 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
You can distribute while not being the PG…
When I say “off the ball”, I’m thinking something along the way Dwayne Wade plays “off the ball”. When you have actual talent, there are a lot of ways to make it work…
by Missing Barry on Dec 13, 2009 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
Why would you want an excellent true PG playing off the ball though? Especially when you don’t have any other true PG that’s better….Just doesn’t make much sense.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Because do we know that his PG skills are really all that good? When I watched him play UConn I can tell you I was impressed by John Wall, but nothing about him screamed Steve Nash/Chris Paul style player. He’s a beast athlete, he can distribute some….looks a lot to me like a Dwayne Wade type. He doesn’t need to play PG to be effective – he can play as a wing but still have the offense run through him and it really doesn’t change a whole lot. I’m not saying that’s what I would do, necessarily, just saying I don’t see that as a bad possibility. Dude is a talent – he’ll be effective whether he’s at PG or SG.
by Missing Barry on Dec 13, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions
games behind?
it’s obvious that teams that are making the playoffs in the West need at least 45 wins. do you think it’ll take less?
the dubs would have to go 38-21 (.644) just to get to that #. you can’t possibly believe that it’s possible for them to put up that kind of record even if they were 100% healthy – can you?
Secondly, what’s the point of being in the lottery when John Wall is more than likely going to be the number one pick.are you serious? the lottery is the 1st 3 picks and even if you don’t get one of those 3, would you rather have the 5th pick or the 10th pick?
by homer simpson on Dec 12, 2009 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
sorry, i was referring to in terms of winning. as in you can win the 1st, 2nd or 3rd pick.
by homer simpson on Dec 12, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions
Secondly, what’s the point of being in the lottery when John Wall is more than likely going to be the number one pick. If the Warriors get the number one pick what will they do trade it or trade Curry?
umm….are you kidding? the obvious answer is to take the best player available. This team clearly isn’t in position to get too picky about what position the player theyre drafting plays. I don’t think a Curry/Wall/Monta group will have a whole lot of success all on the floor at the same time but on a team this bad adding the most talent as possible is ALWAYS the best idea.
Thing A
Chris Hunter should be staring over Mikki Moore
I agree with the first two replies above by jpratm and homer simpson. I want Curry to play more and develop as an NBA point guard. I like CJ, but he is not a part of our future.
If you want to talk about who should be staring over whom, I think Chris Hunter deserves to start over Mikki Moore.
by 1rabidwarriorsfan on Dec 12, 2009 4:19 PM PST reply actions
sandbagging on Hunter
I don’t the the w’s want to expose him too much in case they need to send him back to d-league for roster purposes. he’s good, but they can’t keep him once Beans and Rony come back.
…unless they cut someone. the only cuts they can make are to expiring contracts and those are too valuable in trades.
so, keep him off everyone else’s radar then pick him up once they unload some of those expirings.
Is that true?
With the amount of players we have already lost for the season, I still thought we would qualify for the roster exemption.
I could be wrong, but with Claxton, Azibuike, Wright and Bell out for the season, I’m sure we still would be able to keep him.
Definitely be able to keep Hunter
The Warriors need the size anyways even with Biedrins and Turiaf back. Hunter should move ahead of Moore when both are back as well!
Watson and Curry lines
Watson had 13 points,6 assists, no steals, but more importantly no turnovers.
Curry had 19 points 4 assists, 4 steals, but 4 turnovers, and a blocked shot. The problem with Curry I’ve seen is that his turnovers are bad.
Yes, Monta Ellis does get a lot of turnovers recently, but that’s because he’s attacking the basket. Usually the turnovers are a result of teams taking a charge or he dribbles the gball of his foot. So, the play is stopped and the Warriors can set up on defense.
With Curry though it’s predictable passes that get taken in for easy points.
I’ll give you that Curry makes mistakes…
But our offense absolutely struggles without him. He didn’t play in most of the 3rd quarter today and he didn’t play in the 4th or overtime against the Bulls. Our team scored 12, 17, and 4 points in each of those periods.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 12, 2009 8:44 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't say they struggle without him
Part of the reason why the Warriors struggle is that no one moves when Corey Maggette gets the ball in the post they just expect him to drive or try to be fouled.
Jason Williams
Jason Williams!? HAH!
A PG that actually is doing a great job of distributing the ball and not turning it over while shooting almost 40% from 3?
Yeah I’m sure they’d love to have CJ instead…
"We Deserve"
they all play
they are all in at the same time monta curry and watson and they prove nightly that niether should be starting on an nba team
Send the warriors to the d-league where they found most of these scrubs and yea sure cj could start
Does playing CJ over Curry get us into the playoff hunt? No he doesn’t. We just are not good enough for a playoff spot this season. Sure maybe the 5 extra wins CJ can land us will make feel like we
suck less, but we need to give Curry, Morrow, and AR plenty of experience because this season was a wash since the day Jax said he wanted to be traded and Wright got injured.
by Badly Browned on Dec 13, 2009 11:29 AM PST via mobile reply actions
You think starting CJ over Curry gets us as many as 5 extra wins? I’d love to see that math. I’d guess CJ’s marginal edge in scoring efficiency is more or less offset by Curry’s superior court vision and passing. 1-2 games difference either way, max. Not a lot when we’re talking about a guy with a potential to be a Top 10 NBA PG (or alternatively, the potential to be a very valuable trading chip) v. a career benchwarmer.
Which is to say: I agree with you and don’t really see the point of this diary.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Dec 13, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
I haven’t done the math and 5 was really more an arbitration, if a little high. My point was just that its not like CJ is Bryant. Starting him over Curry will just result in a little less suckage in the short term. Curry’s mistakes are things he can work on and expected of rookies. Unfortunantly people look at players like Jennings’s and want instant results.
by Badly Browned on Dec 13, 2009 1:00 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
The correct answer is to play both of them, but curb Monta’s minutes. A tired Ellis late in games is ridiculously predictable. I suspect that more time on the bench for Monta would present Curry with the challenge to be more aggressive (something he really needs) so that Monta won’t be quite the ballhog when he’s in, so defenses can stop overplaying Monta knowing that he’s going to take every shot as well as keeping Monta rested so he doesn’t suck at the end of games so much.
Who starts at the jump ball is rather irrelevant.
The correct answer is to play both of them, but curb Monta’s minutes. A tired Ellis late in games is ridiculously predictable.
THIS. 100% this.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
I endorse this too.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Watson
led the team in assists last night with 6 and had 0 turnovers. Watson at this point takes care of the ball better then Curry.
True, Watson takes better care of the ball — in large part because, one-game sample size notwithstanding, he’s not really a point guard. 3.3 assists per 36 does not a point guard make. Nice player, good shooter, seems like a cool guy, doesn’t make a lot of mistakes … not a point guard.
Out of curiosity how many wins do you you think the “upgrade” from Curry to CJ at starting PG gets us? And once you’ve arrived at that number … do you actually think the number is worth the possible damage to Curry’s development and /or trade value? Do you really not get why most people here seem to think the premise of this diary is silly?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Dec 13, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
You think starting CJ over Curry gets us as many as 5 extra wins? I’d love to see that math.
Okay.
Their per-36 averages so far:
C.J. scores a bit more despite shooting a bit less often; he shoots better from everywhere. Rebounding is (weirdly) an exact push, and C.J. actually racks up steals a tiny bit more often, despite getting whistled a good bit less. Curry’s only advantage is in his two extra assists per 36 minutes, which is more than canceled out by his 1.9 extra turnovers. Curry’s passing numbers are not stellar; he ranks 40th amongst point guards in A/TO ratio, behind combo guys like Arenas and Devin Harris and Ramon Sessions. Those turnovers really hurt.
Now, there’s a counterargument, one that I’ve at times subscribed to myself: that with Curry, you have to go beyond the basic stats. Maybe his playmaking has an alchemic effect on our offense that’s not reflected in his numbers. And maybe so! Thus far, our offense is 4 points per 100 possessions better when Curry’s on the floor than when he’s not. That’s an impressive figure.
But our offense is 7.5 points per 100 possessions better when CJ’s on the floor than when he’s not… lineups featuring CJ shoot better and score more often than lineups featuring Curry. Any vague offense-improving powers you want to ascribe to Curry, you have to doubly ascribe to CJ. There’s just no way to spin Curry as CJ’s equal on offense thus far, let alone his superior.
Then there’s defense. Neither guy is a defensive whiz, but CJ is two years farther along in learning how to play perimeter NBA defense, and it shows. We’ve defended a bit better with CJ on the floor this year, despite the fact that he’s usually in a hypersmall lineup that cripples our defensive rebounding. Plus-minus numbers don’t paint Curry as an outright defensive disaster, and he creates enough positive plays so that he might not be, but opponents shoot better and score more easily when Curry’s out there. And the average lineup he’s played in is not nearly as undersized.
Grains of salt abound, of course; the sample sizes for all this, especially on CJ’s side, are not big. On the other hand, the margins are pretty big. By Win Shares, CJ’s got a 1.1 to 0.6 edge, despite playing less than 60% as much; projecting them both out to 2500 minutes, CJ’s the better player by more than five wins, 6.6 to 1.0. Basketball Prospectus places CJ at a .521 winning percentage and Curry at .423; they’d expect a team of CJ and four average players to be eight games better than an analogous Curry-led team. So while it’s by no means a given that C.J. Watson is five games better then Stephen Curry right now, it’s certainly plausible. And it’s more plausible than the idea that the two are roughly equal.
To be clear: I think Stephen Curry will be a better player than CJ Watson. Stephen Curry is part of our future, and CJ isn’t. We should prioritize Stephen Curry in every way that matters. But we should not prioritize him because we think he’s currently CJ’s equal. The gap between them is not small. CJ has played very well, Curry hasn’t.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
by onlxn on Dec 13, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
…dang. Stat chart didn’t show up. Their per-36 numbers:
CJ: 13.7 points on 10.2 shots (.624 TS%), 3.6 REB (0.4 off/3.2 def), 3.3 AST, 1.1 TO, 2.2 fouls
Curry: 12.7 points on 10.9 shots (.540 TS%), 3.6 REB (0.4 off/3.2 def), 5.3 AST, 3.0 TO, 3.6 fouls
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
What do Monta’s stats look like in comparison regarding A/TO and points per possession?
What does a Curry / Watson backcourt even look like? Monta’s being forced to play so much, I don’t know if we will ever see it.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Dec 13, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions
What do Monta’s stats look like in comparison regarding A/TO and points per possession?
4.5 assists and 3.8 turnovers per 36 — easily the worst passing numbers of the three. He scores 21.7 points on 18.5 shots per 36, resulting in a .521 TS% that’s also the worst of the three. There’s value, of course, in a guy who can score more often, even if it degrades his efficiency a bit. But this is the real elephant in the room thus far for us: there’s not much evidence that what Monta’s doing is effective. He has the same 0.6 Win Shares as Curry, despite playing 210 more minutes; in Win %, he’s at .471, smack-dab in between Curry and CJ (mainly edging Curry because of better defense). His numbers are undoubtedly skewed by the fact that there’s so little off-court data to compare to his off-court data; he is probably better than these numbers. But he has not been great. Right now, he’s playing like a poor man’s Allen Iverson, which is a scary scenario indeed.
What does a Curry / Watson backcourt even look like? Monta’s being forced to play so much, I don’t know if we will ever see it.
I know. And I suspect they’d really struggle defensively, as Monta does seem like the best bet of the three to cover shooting guards. Still, I’d like to see a Curry/Watson backcourt for stretches here and there. Monta needs some rest.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
Ha, very well done, Owen. I’ll now buy that if you extrapolate from 20 games’ worth of statistics so far this season, CJ’s worth 5 games more than Watson. I’m still not really buying that this is what we should expect for the rest of this season. Not when we’re talking about a 21 year-old rookie just getting his NBA feet wet vs. a 25 year-old sporting a rather outlying and unsustainable-looking .624 TS% and 1.1 TO/36 (compared to .567 and 1.7 career). “CJ has played very well, Curry hasn’t” — this is true. “The gap between them is not small” … meh, I’m still not convinced.
In any case, I think we agree that whether the gap is closer to 0 wins or closer to 8 (!), Curry deserves solid minutes. And I think we both like jae’s idea that the minutes pie include not just Curry and CJ but also Monta. Cutting Monta’s minutes from 41 to more like 36 a game could be a win-win-win: higher trade value for CJ, more development for Steph, and more energy at the end of games for Monta.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Dec 13, 2009 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with a lot of that. But, I dunno… at some point, isn’t it at least worth noting that Curry’s struggling more than other rookies? It’s not just that Brandon Jennings and Tyreke Evans are doing better than he is… it’s that Jennings and Evans and Flynn and Lawson and Collison and Jeff Teague are doing better than he is. James Harden has a better A/TO ratio than Curry. Hell, five centers, including Mikki, have better A/TO ratios than Curry.
I like the kid a lot, but I don’t see what good it does us to pretend that he hasn’t been struggling. He’s been tentative about shooting, he’s been torched fairly badly on D, and his passing results simply aren’t as good as they look; it’s not like we’ve put him in a complicated system, either. He’s not one of the fifteen most effective rookies in the league thus far. This is not just about getting your feet wet.
While Curry was learning a new position at a mid-major college last year, CJ was playing well — genuinely well, with no asterisks — in the NBA. CJ may not be quite as good as his numbers thus far suggest, but he’s still pretty good, better than most people here have acknowledged; CJ’s production last year also far outstripped what Curry’s done so far. I will still take Curry’s future over CJ’s without any hesitation, and the contractual situation makes the choice even easier, but Curry may need a fair amount of time to reach CJ’s level. This is around the time of the year when we should maybe start taking results more seriously than hype.
Ladies and gentlemen, your Golden State Worriers.
I'm sure this has been said several times already, but
NO.
What’s the point when this team isn’t going anywhere? Curry’s ceiling is higher, and he should be a pretty big part of the team for several years. Stifling his progress while playing a vet isn’t a strong bet to even be on the team next year is exactly the kind of move that drives most fans crazy.
Thing A
It wouldn't stifle his progress
I think Curry right now needs to slow himself down and just watch what’s going on in games instead of being out on the court. For a player with a father who played in the NBA, Curry’s IQ is very low right now.
Curry doesn’t drive the ball enough and he stops his dribble way too soon. He also has to do a better job of getting to a spot and pulling up for a jumper.
yes, I’m sure he doesn’t watch any game film on off days. Its not like watching HIMSELF could be more constructive than watching someone else.
Thing A
We're in a tough position. Self-Inflicted though.
I’d like to see Curry come off the bench, ideally. He’s not been productive, and giving him MORE minutes doesn’t really help right now.
AR has more experience in an NBA game, has been more productive, and yet he still doesn’t start. Meanwhile Curry has been inconsistent to say the least, and has played the second most minutes on the team. I think both guys need to feel like they’ve earned their minutes before they become serious NBA contributors. Otherwise free play leads to bad play imo. Bad habits, poor shot selection and effort level can wane on a bad team with little accountability. We need to build for the long term future, and to me, this is one of the ways to make these guys incrementally better AND put them in the right state of mind.
The things Curry struggles at seem to be fixable (TO’s, shooting). I worry that he might not have the athleticism to get to the rim. He settles for floaters (although he’s good at those) instead of seeking and initiating contact. He needs to work on getting to the FT line a lot more, and he also needs to get stronger so he’s not a liability on defense.
THE PROBLEM:
Is that there really isn’t a better player playing in front of AR or Curry. There’s no adequate excuse to sit these two guys and make them learn and earn their PT. AR seems to have a longer leash with Nelson this year. Meanwhile Curry’s situation is totally different than AR’s was last year. While I think Nellie really does like both players, I think Curry was Nellie’s guy from an early standpoint. If he wasn’t, he’d be sent to Phoenix I suspect. When Nellie’s coaching Curry gets some real burn out there. I think it’s more due to Nellie being stubborn and being “Right” than what’s best on the court.
Another problem I’m mulling over is the whole Monta-Curry back court tandem. It looks good against other small ball back courts, but most of the time it sucks. I’m questioning whether Curry might be better off playing without Monta. But then he’d get no time on the court cause’ Monta plays at least 40 a night. Maybe it’s just me, but they just don’t seem to compliment each other well. Curry’s not good enough off the ball yet to help Monta out, and Monta is too ball dominant for Curry to get in a groove.
By the way I’m not suggesting that Curry be given a couple DNP-CD’s and a couple garbage time minutes. Starting CJ for the short time will not screw over Curry. Although many fans will cry out in horror.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
CJ is not a future Warrior
So we should start Curry, play Curry, and have CJ back him up…
by Twistapher on Dec 13, 2009 4:35 PM PST reply actions
So?
Why let Curry’s confidence go down if he is struggling. Let him see what’s going on out on the court. I wasn’t suggesting he be just stopped getting playing time. I think the benefit for this is the fact that Curry can still get 24-28 minutes a night
So, Watson can take a few minutes from Ellis who can drop his average minutes played from 40 plus to 35-38.
I don't think either of them should be starting.
Start:
Monta (
Morrow
Maggette
Randolph
Hunter
Easily the best line-up we have.
Possibly, but it also looks like one the worst starting fives in the NBA. And possibly one of the worst-passing starting fives in NBA history…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Dec 14, 2009 8:39 PM PST up reply actions
No he souldn't
{²} – 1st post ownage:
“The reason is simple: Curry is part of our future and can improve much more from the additional playing time than watson. CJ will not be a warrior next season when his contract expires. We have too many players who play his position and he doesn’t want to be here because he can’t get consistent playing time. Moreover, Curry is our most willing passer which the warriors need desperately even if he turns it over a ton. CJ is best suited for a 6th man role like he is now where he can come in against the other team’s bench and get some steals, score for our team when monta sits, etc.
Now vlad and moore starting, thats another story….."
=Gaucho=
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
"UNSTOPPABLE BABY!"
Golden State Warriors rookie Marc Jackson to the Mavericks' bench, after hitting a lay-up during a 29-point loss (2000)
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
Most Commented
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
