Starter Minutes, Take 1
I've computed what I'm calling "average starter minutes". Essentially, it's a weighted average of the number of opposing starters on the court when a player is in the game. If two teams played without substitutions, all 5 players on each squad would have an average of "5 starters faced". If a reserve only comes in when the opposition has cleared their bench, he'd have "zero starters faced". While some teams have better reserves than others, I think it gives a rough guide to the quality of players on the other team when a player is in the game.
| NAME | Opp. Starters on Court Average |
| Biedrins | 3.8 |
| Ellis | 3.6 |
| Crawford | 3.6 |
| Jackson | 3.5 |
| Wright | 3.4 |
| Maggette | 3.4 |
| Azubuike | 3.3 |
| Belinelli | 3.3 |
| Turiaf | 3.0 |
| Watson | 2.9 |
| Morrow | 2.8 |
| Randolph | 2.8 |
| Kurz | 2.7 |
| Williams | 2.1 |
| Davidson | 1.2 |
When Maggette came back from his injury and started coming off the bench, he started playing better. It hasn't just been a little bit better either. Since returning he's now scoring about 21 points a game in just a bit over 31 minutes of court time on ~52% shooting from the floor. His rebound rate is up a touch too. Not too long after he returned when it was clear that he was a different player from the 41% shooting bloated contract who opened the season, I remember someone saying that he was doing better because, as a 6th man, he was going up against reserves rather than starters. This didn't sit right with me since I don't see wholesale substitutions in games such that Maggs would only be playing against second stringers. I figured it was more likely that he was a) healthy and b) more used to his teammates and c) the team in general had stopped waiting for Baron's ghost to make the offense into what it was last year.
For what it's worth, since he returned, Maggs has been seeing an average of 3.1 opposing starters per minute he's on the court, down a touch from the 3.7 he'd seen in games before when he was almost exclusively a starter. I suspect that this is almost entirely a result of not being on the floor at the opening tipoff when, by defintion, everyone is facing 5 opposing starters and that will bump up the average.
It's also interesting that Biedrins has the highest average on the team. Turiaf seems to be just under one opp. starter fewer. It does seem like it's possible that Turiaf goes in when the opposing starting center goes out.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
7 recs |
121 comments
Comments
maggette
playing 31 minutes means he obviously is facing some starters, and his 3.1 since returning obviously reflects that. i think the difference in him coming off the bench has been the resultant simplification of his role on the court. when he starts i think he’s trying to let other guys get going, get his jumper going, and that hinders his effetiveness. now when he comes in he gets straight to work driving it and getting to the line, and i think his teammates are more keyed on getting him the ball.
shawn marion's jumper makes me want to crap a book on how to puke.
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Feb 24, 2009 7:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
+1
AND another big difference with him coming off the bench means he plays more minutes in place of Jax, Crawford, or Monta, allowing him to do what he does best more and make him worry about fascilitating a little less.
"It’s a hobby of mine. Kind of like collecting your fingernail clippings or pooping in jars." -olympic mike
by sam23 on Feb 24, 2009 7:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, lot of work?
Where did you get all the game substitution records to compile all this?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 24, 2009 7:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I have a dataset of every play line entry back to 2005 with the exception of about 10 games this season. I programmed a parser that computes statistics with conditional qualifiers so I can look things up like the team output with Biedrins and Wright in the game without Crawford or any time that the opposition has 3 or more starters on the court or whenever the lead is less than 10 but greater than 3 etc.
by jae on Feb 24, 2009 9:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow,
is all I can say. Very nicely done jae, this was a good read.
We will probably need to be patient and let this season play out.
-warriorsvictim
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 25, 2009 12:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm....
How would i be able to get my hands on such software?
by Mr. Monday Night on Feb 25, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How would i be able to get my hands on such software?
Figure out what my favorite bourbon is?
In all seriousness, I’d love to make the program freely available soon. Presently, the issue is that I do not code for the most efficient databases and uncompressed, to do what I want it to the dataset is in the neighborhood of 1.2gigs (a bit tough for me to email to someone). Compressed and pre-analyzed (initial analysis takes about 2 to 3 hours on a 2gHz x86 machine running 1GB of internal memory) the data is still about 100mb. The code alone is tiny, but it’s woven into a spaghetti-like mess of scripts and object oriented references that seems to crash whenever I try to make it an executable on anyone else’s platform, largely because the GUI front end was written by a novice (me) with no understanding of graphics.
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Booker's?
Or maybe Evan Williams Single Barrel.
Do you also keep your bourbon in a database? ;-)
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 25, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All right Sleepy
knows his good burbon’s
I’m parcial to Basil Hayden’s
and I keep the Wine on a database :-)
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Feb 25, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you also keep your bourbon in a database?
Only to the extent that the parcer is embedded his liver. That’s why the code is so bloated.
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on Feb 25, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you also keep your bourbon in a database? ;-)
By ‘database’ do you mean ‘tumbler with soda’?
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Van Winkle?
15 year old, great great stuff…….but it really doesnt get a whole lot better (especially dollar for dollar) than good ol’ Makers imo.
Thing A
by sam23 on Feb 26, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it really doesnt get a whole lot better (especially dollar for dollar) than good ol’ Makers imo.
and thrifty has the BIG bottle on sale this week :>)
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 27, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Makers is too sweet for me
But at under 20 bucks I went ahead and picked up at bottle anyway.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Mar 1, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dang...
With all these responses I guess I need to start drinking bourbon and find out what all the fuss is about.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Feb 26, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh its an aquired taste
if I hadnt bartended for a year and desperately needed at least a drink or two every night after work I know I’d still be a strict beer-only kind of guy.
Thing A
by sam23 on Feb 26, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but not as aquired as Scotch
but you do have to like a strong taste sinsation, unless you mix it so you cant taste it.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Feb 27, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Start with it on the rocks if you don't feel up to neat
That way the strength is diluted rather than masked.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 27, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yep, most lit I read says its ment to be deluted
heck I think its Bakers that’s 167 proof and they said they didn’t dilute it so the taster can tone it down as much as he or she wants.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Mar 1, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Figure out what my favorite bourbon is?
Elijah Craig?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 27, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
dark liquor fans
If you havent already, check out Sazerac’s antiques line, its kinda pricey, but great. The Sazerac kentucky whiskey and the George T. Stagg bourbon whiskey are delicious, I think theres a couple other in that antique line and I’ve heard they are good too, but I havent tried them.
Thing A
by sam23 on Feb 27, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anybody call you "Thing A" or are you just trying to ride the coattails of Thing 1 & 2?
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 27, 2009 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How did you miss the betrothal of Sam23 and WS110?
That was like the Luke and Laura of 2009….
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 27, 2009 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
this is getting kind of weird.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Feb 27, 2009 10:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
wierder than Nellie benching Crawford to play Watson and Morrow?
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 27, 2009 11:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dang...
I’ve been living under a rock I guess. Where’s oxln ;-)?
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 27, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for that and another link
http://www.jimbeam.com/ourbourbon.aspx
has write ups on the different flavors and styles with some side by side notes.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Mar 1, 2009 4:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting stat
However, it still doesn’t prove, true or otherwise, if Maggette faces a starter or bench player when he comes in.
While he does get a 3.4 average, good to be tied 5th, it doesn’t factor whether those starters on the floor are playing his position or guarding him which could sway the number in either direction
by lightz0ut on Feb 24, 2009 8:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
it doesn’t factor whether those starters on the floor are playing his position or guarding him which could sway the number in either direction
Dang, back to the drawing board.
Speaking of hard work did anyone watch Obama’s speech? I don’t usually care about that stuff but after 8 years of Bush it felt good to listen to an articulate president. I think he might get this thing back on course. Also makes me appreciate living in this country where we always have a peaceful transition of power.
and Hey did you notice Nancy Pelosi? That chick has mad hops, she was jumping up to applaud like Montay to the rim.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 24, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Who's Montay?
Short guy, bad foot and tats
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 24, 2009 9:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“Prove” isn’t really the sort of thing that this addresses, but it suggests that unless there’s purposeful manipulation to keep him on when his opposite number is a reserve that he’s facing, in general, competition of equal quality to the guys in the starting lineup more often than not. I think it takes more special pleading to say that he’s still usually facing a reserve.
by jae on Feb 24, 2009 9:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s also interesting that Biedrins has the highest average on the team.
Yep. Really, I think Biedrins, Crawford and Jack are a cut above everyone else — Crawford and Jack’s numbers are a bit artificially low just because they play so many minutes. Monta seemed to be getting playing time at a similar level, though the sample size there was pretty small.
Wright’s high ranking is interesting… further acknowledgement of the fact that he hasn’t racked up his impressive numbers against scrubs.
jae, do you have figures like this on hand for other teams? I’d be interested to see how they compare.
by onlxn on Feb 24, 2009 9:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I have the set for the whole league going back 4 seasons.
by jae on Feb 24, 2009 9:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So here’s the top 20 for the league. I’ve included games and starts and avg. min per game.
NAME TEAM GAMES GS min/game avg starter
Batum POR 53 50 17.6 4.3
Walton LAL 36 24 16.0 4.2
Dampier DAL 53 53 23.7 4.1
Wallace CLE 50 50 24.3 4.1
Fisher LAL 53 53 31.8 4.0
Dalembert PHI 54 54 24.8 4.0
Blake POR 40 40 30.8 4.0
Radmanovic LAL 44 28 16.9 4.0
Perkins BOS 45 45 28.7 4.0
May CHA 18 12 13.9 4.0
Jones DEN 53 50 19.6 4.0
James WAS 35 32 28.8 3.9
Parker SAS 42 41 33.8 3.9
Duncan SAS 51 51 35.2 3.9
Garnett BOS 49 49 32.2 3.9
Miles UTA 50 50 23.8 3.9
Collins MIN 15 9 11.8 3.9
Chandler NOH 30 30 31.0 3.9
Sorry the format stinks and it’s too massive to post all 450+ entries. Can’t figure out how to get the table to be even like in the original. My rough look at the list shows that big men tend to show up at the top, which suggests that many coaches start with a ‘traditional’ lineup, but then sub in someone for their center pretty quickly and they tend to focus more on matchng the oppositions bigs than worrying about guard matchups. I may be reading too much in there though.
Also for what it’s worth, Ginobili got a 3.3, #2 among guys who come off bench in more than 2/3rds of their games behind Etan Thomas.
by jae on Feb 24, 2009 9:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Makes a guy like Batum look alot more useful. He has pretty weak stats, but is supposedly billed as a defensive force. This stat show he is playing against the other teams best at all times, and that coupled with him being a rookie from a far different system can help explain hi poor stats quit a bit.
JAE, on a side not about formating, I was having quite a bit of issues, inserting table myself. The one way I was able to do it, was if you go under the body paragraph and use the cut and paste option directly from word(there is a little icon) it should work a bit better.
We will probably need to be patient and let this season play out.
-warriorsvictim
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 25, 2009 12:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
There are a lot of guys on that list that are starters but don’t play “starters minutes”. It seems like many of them are bigs as you mentioned. I think you are dead on about a lot of these guys getting the bulk of their minutes at the start of the first and third quarters when the other team has all their starters on the floor, and then they are subbed out for a less traditional line-up.
Thanks again.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Feb 25, 2009 12:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Starters
That’s pretty cool, jae. I never thought about it, but starters who don’t play many minutes, ala’ Luke Walton and Batum, and even Biedrins, have the toughest competition per minute. Like wise, subs who play starter minutes – Ginolbli, Maggette – essentially play against starter competition.
Like you, I think the main reason Maggette has played better since he has been back from the DL is his health – he was hurt when he was playing before, finally got healthy with an extended stint on the DL. It’s pretty simple, he’s playing better because he’s finally healthy, Ellis was playing worse because he was essentially still hurt.
Thanks for sharing this.
by San Francisco Slim on Feb 25, 2009 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
its almost impossible to have above 4 w/ the amount of minutes jack and crawford play
they are ALWAYS in… meaning they see both starts and subs of opposite team
by tafkasam on Feb 25, 2009 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Very cool,
its intrestin to see Wrights high average compared to Randolph’s. I thought about this before, seeing as Wright got a to only play at the start of the game and second half and never seen from again, he was generally playing against the better competetion.
We will probably need to be patient and let this season play out.
-warriorsvictim
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 25, 2009 12:15 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks JAE...
Interesting stuff. I haven’t seen anything like this before. You should really think about coming up with some more advanced metrics like this and start your own Stat-site. I doubt you have the extra time but, I would love to be able to go somewhere to look through all the leagues “average starter minutes” and whatever other things you could come up with. Stats like this and ws110’s “actual playing age” might not be appealing to the mainstream NBA fan but there are so many different aspects of the game that could be (should be) more thoroughly examined.
BTW, where did you get your hands on the data necessary to do this? Pretty cool stuff.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Feb 25, 2009 12:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
basketballvalue.com has all the raw data compiled into big text files of PBP entries. The PBP for individual games to assemble this are on NBA.com, espn, CNNSI and a few other sites. Interestingly enough, they aren’t always identical. I had a hell of a time getting the statistical totals to equal the ‘official’ NBA statistics. Through a process possible only by a) losing my job (effect of losing my job — not the cause) and b) heavy coffee consumption, I tracked down some of these discrepancies. For example there was one series where 3 sources showed Biedrins to have received a rebound, missed a putback and then gotten his own rebound but another site attributed the same series to Pietrus. NBA.com, a site not really run by the NBA but run for the NBA by Turner broadcasting, seemed to be the least accurate.
I’ve started computing my own plus-minus as well. It’s not a major point, but all the sources currently published use a system that I do not think is entirely fair. If someone is fouled and before FTs are shot (or after the first) a player is subbed in, the guy subbed in gets charged or credited with points scored on the FTs but the guy who went to the bench is not. It’s a case where you can foul out, have a guy sink both shots caused by your foul, but not get charged with the -2 because you weren’t in the game. Over the course of a season, this tends to be a tiny, tiny effect for guys who get regular playing time, but for garbage time players and defensive specialists, it can through things off.
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 8:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
thats a pretty big and obvious flaw with +/-
"It’s a hobby of mine. Kind of like collecting your fingernail clippings or pooping in jars." -olympic mike
by sam23 on Feb 25, 2009 8:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I pointed it out to the guys at 82games.com and in an APBR forum, but got no response. Either no one wants to deal with it or they don’t think it makes a significant difference.
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you get a chance I’d like to see some guys for whom that makes a significant difference….like you said I’m thinking it might change the +/- for some role players quite a bit…especially role players that play behind guys who get in foul trouble a lot.
"It’s a hobby of mine. Kind of like collecting your fingernail clippings or pooping in jars." -olympic mike
by sam23 on Feb 25, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I just dont see how comparing +/- across teams is useful.
The better team that you play on, and having better talent surronding you is obviously going to seriously push your stat. Durant is in the negative right now, because he plays alot of minutes on a very crappy team. Lebron James plays alot minutes on a very good team. Lebron is obviously a better player but I dont think +/- is a good place to compare them.
+/- can be useful when you compare players performance ove the course of the game or a comparing similar players on the same team over the course of a season.
Am I missing something here in regards to +/- ?
We will probably need to be patient and let this season play out.
-warriorsvictim
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 25, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+/-
I think +/- is an extemely useful stat. Thus said, it can have high variables. It needs a larger sample size to be more useful. If you notice on the box scores that includes +/-, it tends not to mean much for one game. However, the longer the duration that it indicates, the more accurate of an indicator that it is.
Still their are rotation variables. One of the best examples is a player that you site, Kevin Durant. Durnat has a negative +/-, yet the two other good players on his teams, Westbrrok and Green, have postive +/-. In fact, Westbrook has an excellent +/-. I’ve watched all three games vs. the Warriors and Scott Brooks has unusual substitute patterns with those three. Besides the opening and the closing of the halves, those three are rarely in the game at the same time. Brooks always has at least one of them in and usually two, but the patterns seem to change.
The thing is, the other players on that team are awful, so the Thunder are worse when only two of the three are playing and terrbile when only one of the three are playing. So, I’m guessing that the differences of Durant, Westbrook and Green’s +/-, may be due to randomness. Let’s see how they look next season and there after.
There is nothing random about LeBron’s +/-, however. He has the best +/- in the league, because his team is sooo much better when he is in the game. His +/- is much, much better than Kobe’s, btw.
by San Francisco Slim on Feb 25, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Am I missing something here in regards to +/- ?
Yes.
Raw +/- doesn’t do that much, but within the context of a team, it can tell you a bunch. If a player averages 3 per 48, he’s negative. His team has been outscored with him on the court. If, when he’s on the bench, the team is -6 though, it suggests that he’s a net positive to the team, that without him, they do even worse. If those numbers were reversed (-6 on the, court, -3 off) it suggests that the player plays for a bad team overall, and he’s not one of the better players on that team. The ’net +/’ is far, far more useful than the raw total.
It is difficult to compare +/- between teams however. Some attempts (‘adjusted +/-’, which takes into consideration the quality of teammates in various manners) have been made, but I don’t find them all that reliable because they swing wildly from season to season for some players and the standard errors are huge. I think they change far more than the actual quality of a player’s play does and if they aren’t good predictors of future events, then they don’t serve that much function for me in isolation.
However, in conjunction with other measures, they can be rather useful. Generally, they tend to agree rating the players known to be ‘good’ as such, but there’s some times when different measures say different things. If someone has (for example) a low “PER” (not that I’m a big fan of PER, but just for example - it does say something about players) but a consistently high +/ on good teams (ala Battier) it suggests that he may be doing something that isn’t being record, something positive. If someone has a consistently high PER but lousy +/-, it could mean that one measure is unreliable (e.g. padded with ‘garbage time’ stats or defense is so bad that it cancels out measured stats). Last year, for example, Durant was far more negative than the Sonics overall. Given that beyond the unreliable PPG, his stats were lousy, it suggests that he wasn’t really an effective player. This year, the box score stats (FG%, rebounding) have turned around, but the team is still far more in the negative when he’s on. I suspect this means that while he’s improved quite a bit and is turning into a fine player, he’s still defensively ineffective. It’s also probably swayed something by the small sample of when he’s off court, largely in garbage time when the “Thunder” are behind and the other team doesn’t care about letting them back in. This should be taken into consideration (and analyzed), but there’s still evidence that Durant has some on court issues he’ll have to solve (including their coach, who, though better than PJ, still puts in some strange lineups that don’t seem to bring out Durant’s best).
Again, most of the time this sort of stuff doesn’t surprise. Duncan good by all measures, Lebron as well. Where this sort of stuff can get useful is in looking for bargains, guys who don’t impress the yahoo fans who want to see monster dunks and equate scoring 30 points as a great performance even if it took 33 shots to do it. (This, I’ve noticed, characterizes most basketball fans AND ‘journalists’ AND a surprising number of GMs who give out big contracts to inefficient big time scorers who consistently play for losing squads yet the GMs never seem to see the connection). You can actually add quite a few wins to a team’s total without adding a ‘star’ at a low price if you look for the bargains who don’t necessarily light up the scoring column and won’t make Youtube clips. Inevitably, with only 5 guys on the court, to contend you do need some acknowledged stars who really are the top players in the league, but the supporting cast do matter. Not all “role players” are created equal.
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
(how the hell does that strikethrough happen?)
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
SBnation...
if you bookend something with – then you get a strikethrough.
Sucks when you are on a sports site and need to use stats like +/- or want to say that a guy is -3 per 48.
Especially if you happen to type it like, player A is 3 per 48 this year I love +/.
See…
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Feb 25, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jae...
Did you catch the Sports Guy and John Hollinger’s podcast on NBA stats. They had some interesting points that make work into your research. One thing that the NBA stat geeks need to figure out is a better way to evaluate Defense. Why is it that Battier and Bowen are guys that we can’t get stats so that measure their defensive output.
One thought I had was that it really calls for a project much like the guys at footballoutsiders.com who have gone back watch every game for each season and then applied their rating and measuring system to those games. Granted doing that for 82 games for the entire NBA could be a nightmare, but if you could assign a couple people to each team then it’s conceivably possible. Anyways, I don’t have the time for that either. But I’m sure someone out their will and that’s when we’ll get some stats that helps us beyond just what a player does on offense.
A Sonics fan without a team.. Though I'm auditioning GS Warriors this season.
by mcwalter44 on Feb 25, 2009 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yea obviously that needs to be taken into account but I think it reveals the strengths of some players that arent shown in any other stats. I dont think its a good stand-alone stat but a pretty good stat for role players on good teams or as a secondary stat…..which is why I think the free throw flaw jae pointed out is an even bigger deal, it has a stronger impact on the kinds of guys for whom the +/- probably shows more of their true value.
"It’s a hobby of mine. Kind of like collecting your fingernail clippings or pooping in jars." -olympic mike
by sam23 on Feb 25, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Very interesting overall
But, at the expense of sounding like a broken record, Maggette is playing better because he’s healthy. Sure, his job coming off the bench is simplified, but if Nelson said “Hey, Corey, you’re going to start, but stop that pussyfooting around letting other people get into the flow of the game, just go score!”, I think that would solve any of the issues Bimbo & Sam have an issue with.
Also keep in mind that he was still learning the “Run&Gun” style we play with coming from an 8 year career with the plodding Clippers AND guarding power forwards.
I still think both the learning curve and injuries factored into his poor performance far, far more than the difference between starting and coming off the bench to play against starters.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 25, 2009 6:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
But, at the expense of sounding like a broken record, Maggette is playing better because he’s healthy.
I think that’s what the numbers show. He’s not really facing significantly weaker lineups. The difference is likely entirely the effect of the only time when 5 starters are on the court is often at the opening tip until the first time out.
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 8:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I should have nested it somewhere...
But I couldn’t quite figure out where.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 25, 2009 8:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Plus, Don Nelson pointed out on one of his fan shows, by bringing Maggette in later in the 1st quarter, the Warriors are either at, or close to, the free throw bonus. Thus, Maggette’s great penchant for getting fouled is more efficently rewarded.
Also, of the three core veterans – Jackson, Maggette and Crawford – Maggette is the best candidate for less playing time, because he has a very high foul rate – that is, HE fouls a lot. At the same time, he is likely a better player, the more aggressive he plays, which means he will ultimately play less minutes, because of fouls that he commits.
by San Francisco Slim on Feb 25, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bonus FT shooting
That’s a interesting point that I hadn’t considered, though I don’t think it’s much of an effect. He was shooting 8.8FT per 36 before coming back, 9.1 since. That’s statistical noise at that point. His rate of FTs per FGA is almost the same before and after and actually better before, suggesting that this isn’t really responsible for the change.
I think it’s largely, if not entirely that he’s used to the team, that he’s healthy and that he’s staying better rested. I wouldn’t put some of it past having Crawford around. Crawford only played a handful of games before Maggs went out of the lineup. While I’m not thrilled with him as a point guard overall, he’s not terrible and is a step up from those duties going to Jax for 40+ minutes a game. Whatever it is, Maggs is producing up to the standards of his contract. While it still might not have been the wisest long term move, his play isn’t what’s holding the team back currently anymore.
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
Plus, Don Nelson pointed out on one of his fan shows, by bringing Maggette in later in the 1st quarter, the Warriors are either at, or close to, the free throw bonus. Thus, Maggette’s great penchant for getting fouled is more efficently rewarded.
wow, I hadnt thought of that and I thought “thats a great point!” ……then I read jae’s post.
"It’s a hobby of mine. Kind of like collecting your fingernail clippings or pooping in jars." -olympic mike
by sam23 on Feb 25, 2009 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not convinced that it’s still not an issue.
He’s getting fouled about the same amount now, largely on his crashes towards the basket, but he still takes some jumpers. He’s still not fouled every time and there could be a difference in the looks he gets in those cases. If he’s in during the bonus and players are worried about his ability to get to the line (and their own foul trouble that helped push them into the bonus already), they may not be guarding him as closely for fear of picking up cheap fouls and sending him to the line for free. He still picks up fouls on the drives, but when he’s not fouled, it may be because they aren’t playing him as close for fear of sending him to the line. This could give him better looks, give him a bit more space to start his move to the basket and help raise his FG% some.
Entirely speculative, but it seems plausible.
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I certainly don’t think that playing in the bonus situation would have a marked difference on Maggette’s output nor on the team’s overall production, but I would agree with you, it would probably make SOME amount of difference to the Warriors, whether or not it yet shows up in Maggette’s stats. As you say, players have to be more aware when Maggette has the ball in the bonus situation and it should change how they play against him.
by San Francisco Slim on Feb 25, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey...
Where have you been. I miss reading your posts man. Here’s to more Slim in GSoM.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Feb 25, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
they may not be guarding him as closely for fear of picking up cheap fouls and sending him to the line for free
Yeah, I always wonder why after a few phantom fouls they don’t just chop block him to get their moneys worth?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 25, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
this is difficult to put a value to
as mentioned above, a lot of these folks dont put up monster stats, so how do we use this info to determine the value of the player?
Are they playnig good defense and helping to keep the offense moving but not doing much else? If so, are they really that valuable? A guy like Luke Walton for instance…I am not sure if I would care if he is on my team or not. It seems like there are a handful of players who could fill that role of fundamentally sound basketball with no measurable stats.
Maybe this should factor in +/- as well?
by barondavis on Feb 25, 2009 10:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
3.7 -> 3.1 is more than a "touch"
…isn’t it? In raw terms, it’s around a 16% reduction in versus-starter weighting… I’m not exactly sure how to “translate” that in terms of actual floor composition, but maybe something like this: on average, he’s facing only 84% as many opposing “starter minutes” as he used to…?
On 30 minutes of his playing time, with 5 opposing players, that’s 150 opposing player minutes per game; that means he’s saving about 24 minutes of collective face time against opposing starters.
Or, alternately, 16% more of his time is against non-starters. Taken that way, you could consider 84% of his minutes identical to before, and the other 16% — almost 5 minutes — where he’s playing against a straight B-team lineup.
Or consider it this way: his B-team ratio was 1.3, and now it’s 1.9. That 0.6 growth represents a 46% increase in his time weighted time against the B-team.
Hard to wrap your head around, and those translations may not be exactly right, but it feels like a 16% “softening” of his starter competitor minutes to me.
So this is where Jae explains how I’m completely wrong. :)
by b.radley on Feb 25, 2009 12:10 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Well done!
Touch might have been a bit overstated, It is a reduction in the ‘starter minutes’ he faces, but he’s producing more in less time on the court. Unless the time in the game against 5 starters somehow sapped him of his ability to play the rest of the game, it’s hard to see how his gain in gross productivity in fewer total minutes can be explained by the quality of the opponents. He has to be taking advantage of those times when he’s playing b-teamers, but he has to be playing better against the a-teamer to account for his increased productivity.
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
between all these stat based posts lately
we must have a hell of a gambling system within our reach now.
by warriorsvictim on Feb 25, 2009 4:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You think I’d share the really good stuff?
by jae on Feb 25, 2009 5:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you pull a a stat that looks at Maggs playing with our OWN starters...
I think you’re looking at the wrong side of the coin.
Just from my observations Maggette is clearly much more effective in his new role as 6th man. If he’s still playing against the other teams starters why has he improved so much? I mean he’s playing 5 less minutes a game but shooting 10% better from the field and upped his scoring average from 18.7 to 21 ppg.
A big factor is health as after he rested his hamstrings he was thrust into the 6th man role on his return. So you can’t ignore that aspect.
However, I also think another factor is that coming off the bench it doesn’t matter who Maggette is playing against, but it is more important to see who he is playing WITH. As a 6th man Maggette removes one of the other scorers from the floor and doesn’t have to fight for for shots… he knows his role is to be the scorer as we give one of our starters a breather. Basically there’s mor shots to go around for Maggs and he knows he’s the focal point of the offense when he’s in the game.
Hopefully you can pull out a stat that shows how many minutes Maggs spends with starters when he was a starter and as a 6th man. Would love to see if my observation is backed up by the numbers.
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by FLAxwless on Feb 26, 2009 1:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Before his injury break, there were on average 3.9 starters on the court when Maggs was on the court (so 2.8 other starters).
After, that figure dropped to a bit under 3.1. That figure includes 3 games he started after the break so the actual number is probably a tiny bit below that.
Essentially, as a backup he’s still on the court with three non-Maggette starters most of the time, although that’s 3 out of 5 others as opposed to 3 out of 4 possible other starters when he was starting.
I’m not sure how to interpret that in terms of aiding or hindering his performance.
by jae on Feb 26, 2009 1:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hard to tell from that small figure.
We’d probably get a better picture if it was in pure minutes.
Would probably be worth it to see how many more minutes he plays with Jackson and/or Crawford as a starter or bench player.
If not guess it is just health.
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by FLAxwless on Feb 26, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also thanks for the stat!
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
Build players, Build teams, watch games...
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by FLAxwless on Feb 26, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
or if we could see any differences in who the 3 starters he is playing with
Maybe if we could see the other 3 starters he is playing with now and before and how the minutes overlap.
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by FLAxwless on Feb 26, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well we also have to figure in who is guarding and who he is defending(or atleast pretending to defend)
When Nellie forces him to play the 4 or the 5 even, it must draw more of his energy on the defensive side than normal.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 26, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In theory, this would be true, if Maggs put any energy into defense.
by jae on Feb 26, 2009 9:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He still has to put some energy into dragging himself off the floor after getting knocked over because he wasn't playing defense
When he’s guarding smaller players, they just run around him and he doesn’t even have to do that.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 27, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Before his injury break, there were on average 3.9 starters on the court when Maggs was on the court (so 2.8 other starters).
If he’s 1.1 of a starter does this mean we gotta pay him more?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 26, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
for us,
the rumor was that he was contemplating between Boston and SA’s MLE before the Warriors came and made a ridiculuos over pay for him.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 26, 2009 9:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
got it,
sorry, read it too fast the first time around
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 26, 2009 9:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nice work
Another tweak/consideration may be that when Maggette does compete against starters, the opposing starters are somewhat fatigued. Regardless, I agree with your main point. Maggette has changed his game to fit in with his team and he is simply playing better.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
by fotd on Feb 27, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
His new role may have greatly improved the chemistry and his state of mind.?
or maybe the re-hab drugs did?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 26, 2009 7:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Basketball is an extremely psychological game. LITTLE things make a big difference. A jumpshot off by 1 inch due to stress or uncertainty, due to resources being expended toward the wrong emotions and throwing off concentration can kill a player.
Makes me wonder how a nellie coached team ever wins a game, he’s got zero people skills?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 27, 2009 9:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
nellie's a loser
and this is “essentially” a freaking waste of time.
speaking of which, how much time do you people spend on such foolishness? don’t you work?
and before you berate ME for spending time here, i will have you know that i do NOT work. i am receiving federal bailout money for my failed bank—so thank you, taxpayers.
by nelliehater on Mar 2, 2009 11:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
What??
You don’t get paid to post here like the rest of us? That’s strange…
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 2, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My best guess...
is that you were an analyst in the banking world before it turned upside down. Do I get a prize, or is my intuition as bad as usual?
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 2, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
Yeah, I’m usually not very good at guessing stuff… I’ll stop speculating on your personal life.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 2, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Im still guesing jae is a out of work scout for a certain team,
that told them Jamal Crawford wouldnt fit, and they didnt like his answer,
I would of guessed lawyer but you have showed your disdain for them before, so I am going to guess out of work radio producer. I got to be close than mike….
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Mar 2, 2009 10:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he said something about being a college professor once….. Lets keep playing “Guess jae’s former profession” its so much fun!
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 2, 2009 11:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's gotta be something to do with statistics and/or programming
Or at least he studied that stuff in college…
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Mar 3, 2009 12:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok...
Before I guess again I need to know if there is a prize. Bourbon maybe?
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 3, 2009 12:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
JAE will buy you some scotch
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Mar 3, 2009 12:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sign me up
radio producer stats guy is my official guess for jae’s ex job
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Mar 3, 2009 12:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If only! Dunno how to land that job, but might be a good career change.
by jae on Mar 3, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
JAE will buy you some scotch?
We should all buy jae a bottle for all the numbers he crunches for us.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 3, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ill chip in....
but I get a sip off the top for good luck…
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Mar 4, 2009 10:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve done statistical analysis for a living, though not in a sports field. Numbers is numbers though. Programming is something that I picked up on my own just to make it easier to deal with large datasets (like a season’s worth of basketball play by play).
by jae on Mar 3, 2009 10:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie Eppes?

JAE is that you???
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 3, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny you should mention that. I actually consulted for that show for one episode. Never watched it myself though. It consisted of them calling me and saying “is this plausible?” I said no, but told them something almost plausible to use instead. What wound up going in the show was (by account of someone who watched it — I like to at least pretend that I’m doing something more interesting than watching TV on Fridays) some bastardization of what I said, but that’s Hollywood. I don’t even know if they spelled my name right in the credits.
by jae on Mar 3, 2009 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's cool...
I do enjoy the show on occasion. I’m curious what they consulted you about. I may have seen the episode.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 3, 2009 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That would completely and totally give away my identity. I’m in a very, very small field (or should I say was in) and of the 20 or so people in the world, figuring out which one was the Warriors fan would be pretty easy.
by jae on Mar 3, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i’m not even sure i could name a field that includes only 20 or so people. that’s tiny by my standards, and i’m an aesthetic theory philosophy student.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Mar 3, 2009 4:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i’m not even sure i could name a field that includes only 20 or so people
It’s either way ahead of it’s time or way out of date?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 3, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A little of A, a little of B.
But it responds to the economy? or are you not working by choice?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 4, 2009 10:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely not unemployed by choice.
My field generally isn’t that small, but my specialty is very, very small and was rather dependent on both disposable income and investment capital, neither of which are plentiful right now. My guess is that I’ll have to broaden my search to much wider application of my skills, though I’ve specialized enough that such a sell seems somewhat difficult presently.
by jae on Mar 4, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My guess is that I’ll have to broaden my search to much wider application of my skills, though I’ve specialized enough that such a sell seems somewhat difficult presently.
Their forecast must have been grim or they would have held on to you due to the rarity of your skill?
It’s almost like people think we are never gonna eat or buy anything ever again?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 4, 2009 8:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m in a very, very small field
Crap I’m never going to win any bourbon…
Ok, next game. Who can guess DFiB’s mother’s maiden name?
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 3, 2009 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
I’ll give you a hint:
Sheep curry.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Mar 4, 2009 6:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Closest so far. I have taught courses at the college level, but never hired as a prof.
by jae on Mar 3, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have taught courses at the college level,
Were you the numbers guy for Madoff?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 3, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Geophysics!
I win if I am in the right field atleast.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Mar 4, 2009 10:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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