NBA chatter: Warriors are "very active" in pursuit of Stoudemire [Talking Points]
YES! This is even more exciting than the Warriors beat-down of the hated Utah Jazz tonight at the Roaracle.
Amare to the Bay! And for the record I'd give up BOTH Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins to get it done. Hey if the Suns want cap space, maybe they can trade for Monta and then void his deal citing Moped Gate- I kid.
Also check out what MT's got: Warriors Want Amare [Inside the Warriors]
Amare Trade Rumor Open Thread [Bright Side of the Sun]
over 3 years ago
Atma Brother ONE
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no
amare is good on offense wich we dont need he cant play d and wants 2 be the no.1 option but we got monta and jak…hell be mad here and wont play d or rebound an hes overrated.i wouldnt giv up andis or monta evr
Hey!
I’m glad to hear about this! It will be very enjoyable after Amare opts out at the end of next year and the Suns make the conference finals!
Niether.
"Monta is the MAN." -Bob Fitzgerald
by WarriorForLife on Feb 8, 2009 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
meh
I don’t like any of the deals from the Warriors. Beans is solid by not with Shaq (and he’s not getting traded) and Ellis is a pure stud but doesn’t fit w/ Nash, JRich and LB.
I think there are better deals out there that replace a PF with a PF and also bring youth, picks and cap space.
And Corry M is a waste of space. I don’t know why your guys signed him.
Blogging Suns Basketball
Amare Stoudemire > Andris Biedrins
Now and forever.
Biedrins can’t even initiate his own offense, only gets rebounds because he’s the only rebounder on the floor, and isn’t aggressive in the paint like Amare is.
by Precise Films Productions on Feb 8, 2009 8:59 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
only gets rebounds because he’s the only rebounder on the floor
Utter nonsense like this does nothing to help what is otherwise a reasonable case.
Thing 1
In sum:
Amare: much better offensive player and FT shooter.
Andris: better rebounder, four years younger, a lot cheaper, locked up for 5 years (rather than one).
Both are very efficient and great in uptempo offenses, neither is great shakes on D. I’d say it’s about a push overall.
I would do (Monta + Belinelli + Wright + Maggs) for (Amare + Barbosa) in a second, though Phoenix Stan probably echoed the Suns’ general feeling about Maggs as a trade chip.
Thing 1
Would you...
do Monta, Turiaf and Wright for Amare? I’d do it for Bosh, and I’d probably do it for Amare. I have some reservations about Amare’s attitude and whether or not he would stick around but I think he would look great next to AB. We would still need to find a legit PG but we would still have our pick, the MLE and a couple of pieces to trade.
Thing 2
if the moped ddnt happen
phoenix wouldve jumped at this yesterday.
warriors dont fish they hunt!
by VonteegoCummings on Feb 8, 2009 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly...
if he didn’t have the injury they would probably do the deal, but then again if he didn’t have the injury we would probably be in the hunt for a playoff spot and I wouldn’t be posting trades involving him. =P
Thing 2
So now we give up Monta and Andris
After we see that they are good but when we werent sure if they would be we wouldnt trade them for Garnett? Id rather stick with Andris and Monta then to trade one of them, even for Amare
They didn't trade them back then
Because they wanted to see if they would end up being good players or not.
by Precise Films Productions on Feb 8, 2009 9:01 PM PST up reply actions
So now that they see they are good
They want to trade them for someone no where near as good as Garnett? That doesnt make sense, just sounds like us doing it all backwards as usual.
I'm still iffy on that cause of BW, but it's the best one I've seen so far.
Except it probably wouldn’t be close to enough to get Amare.
"Monta is the MAN." -Bob Fitzgerald
by WarriorForLife on Feb 8, 2009 9:34 PM PST up reply actions
Anthony Randolph or Brandan Wright.
We’d probably have to include one of them to make our package enticing. I would be all for it since I doubt we would be able to keep both of them later on in the future anyways.
by Precise Films Productions on Feb 8, 2009 9:02 PM PST reply actions
here
plus picks from here to eternity
warriors dont fish they hunt!
by VonteegoCummings on Feb 8, 2009 9:04 PM PST reply actions
s-a-l-a-r-y c-a-p r-e-l-i-e-f
while this team is owned by cohan, managed by rowell and YES coached by nelson, DO NOT EXPECT A FUTURE. We’ve been here before and this is the result. a we believe season > planning for the future
warriors dont fish they hunt!
by VonteegoCummings on Feb 8, 2009 9:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
s-u-p-e-r c-a-l-i-f-r-a-g-i-l-i-s-t-i-c e-x-p-i-a-l-i-d-o-c-i-o-u-s
warriors dont fish they hunt!
by VonteegoCummings on Feb 8, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions
Looks like somebody didn't take their pill this morning...
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 9, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions
yeah have to agree
as much as i’d like to see Amare in da bay theres almost no chance we would be able to sign him for the money he’s going to want
I love Biedrins and he has gotten a lot better since we drafted him. But I would be willing to part with him if we can land amare. Biedrins success has been due to our fast break offense. I have no doubt that Amare can get as many rebounds as Biedrins. We need Amare for those 4th quarters when our jump shots arent going in. Lets make it happen
I have no doubt that Amare can get as many rebounds as Biedrins.
You should have your doubts. Reb/36 this season:
Biedrins 13.7
Amare 8.0
Not even close. Amare’s better than AB at a lot of things — rebounding ain’t one of them.
Thing 1
Rebounding stats
I’m not stat guy but isn’t that number a little skewed?
- Warriors have more possessions/36 thus more chances for rebounds
- Suns are a better rebounding team (+1.2 rebs/game – Warriors are -5.7) so the rebounding load doesn’t fall on Amare. He can let Shaq get boards while he runs the break.
I don’t know how these affect those numbers and perhaps Andris is a better rebounder but I don’t think it’s as large a difference as that per 36 number looks. Take Amare and put him at center for the Warriors and I’m willing to bet his rebounds/36 is greater than 8.
by Fantasy Junkie on Feb 8, 2009 10:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
when has amare ever been a good rebounder...
never, shaq has been on his team for one year…
and biedrins still avg’s roughly 4 or 5 offensive rebounds in the league. thats near the best. you can’t skew offensive rebounds….
I’m not stat guy but isn’t that number a little skewed?
Not as much as you’d think. Rebounding percentage isn’t effected by pace of play:
TRB%
AB:20.5
Amare:13.1
Also, who you play next to doesn’t effect rebounding as much as you’d think, but that’s a whole other comment that I’ll leave to JAE when he finds this. =P
Thing 2
I'm an experimentalist and stat guy
And I’m not buying it.
I do believe Biedrins is a much better rebounder than Amare, but not as much as the stats would indicate. Amare has played with the likes of Shaq and Shawn Marion, while Biedrins has played alongside non-rebounding PF’s like Al Harrington. Put Biedrins in those situations with the Suns and I don’t think he’s averaging 12 rebounds/ game. Put Amare on the Warriors with their current cast of non-rebounders and he gets you 24-10 nightly easy.
It’s much easier to concentrate on inflating your rebounding totals, when a) your teammates are poor rebounders, 2) you’re not a focal points of the offense- a 5th option most times and don’t have to expend as much effort on that side of the ball, and 3) that’s what keeping you out on the floor. Amare isn’t out there for rebounding, Biedrins is. Biedrins isn’t out there to be the focal point of the offense, Amare is.
Don’t get me wrong- Biedrins is a good rebounder. It doesn’t matter what team he’s on, but hey- so is Troy Murphy.
I can only guarantee you one thing. If the Warriors somehow managed to pair Biedrins and Amare we’d be treated to quite possibly the worst starting 4/5 defensive combo in the league. Both are frustratingly terrible defenders which shouldn’t be the case.
by Atma Brother ONE on Feb 8, 2009 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Hmm...
You’re not buying what exactly? I think we are all getting a little muddy. FJ said…
I don’t know how these affect those numbers and perhaps Andris is a better rebounder
I would say that Andris is certainly the better rebounder. He also said…
Take Amare and put him at center for the Warriors and I’m willing to bet his rebounds/36 is greater than 8.
I would absolutely agree with that. It would likely be closer to the 8.8-10.5 reb per 36 he averaged playing center for the run-and-gun D’Antoni Suns (say that ten times fast). Still well below the 12.9reb and 13.7reb Andris averaged last season and this season.
Overall I didn’t really have much of an issue with his comment just wanted to add my two cents.
Now as for your comment
I do believe Biedrins is a much better rebounder than Amare
Good, so do I.
Amare has played with the likes of Shaq and Shawn Marion, while Biedrins has played alongside non-rebounding PF’s like Al Harrington.
True. Andris couldn’t actually play next to Shaq (both are centers and both are useless outside of 5 feet on offense, not that that’s a bad thing). Marion on the other hand would have likely been leaking out on the break if he knew he had a rebounder like Andris under the glass to secure the rebound and kick it up court (see how you can spin these hypotheticals, that’s why I don’t particularly like them).
Put Biedrins in those situations with the Suns and I don’t think he’s averaging 12 rebounds/ game.
Maybe, maybe not… Andris next to Marion would have surely been a better rebounder than Amare. On the current team he’d be Shaq’s back-up but his per minute rebounds would probably be similar.
. Put Amare on the Warriors with their current cast of non-rebounders and he gets you 24-10 nightly easy.
I do agree actually. I think he could probably get back to his previous rebounding high if he were on this team and motivated.
To review, the original argument
I have no doubt that Amare can get as many rebounds as Biedrins.
Sleepy, myself, you and any other reasonable human being would probably disagree with that. FJ brought up the point that the stats might be skewed and that other factors might be at play. I don’t disagree, but I did warn that pace of play and teammates don’t seem to have as much of an effect on rebounding as conventional basketball wisdom would have you believe.
IMO Andris is a better rebounder and a better defender. Amare is obviously the better offensive player. I (unlike you apparently) would love to see them play in the same front-court. I might even trade the “immature liar” to get him. (even though he is an immature malcontent)
Thing 2
I think the cause for the confusion is probably my poor and confusing writing above. Looks like we basically agree on most points here.
I don’t disagree, but I did warn that pace of play and teammates don’t seem to have as much of an effect on rebounding as conventional basketball wisdom would have you believe.
I’ll buy that as a general heuristic, but not for Andris Biedrins with this particular squad and offense. There’s just something fishy about it. Fishy like Stephen Jackson pulling down 10 boards with Biedrins out. I’ll have to think about it some more.
I believe Biedrins a very good rebounder, but not one of the best in the league which he currently rates. Still let’s give it up to him- he’s having a fantastic year on the glass.
by Atma Brother ONE on Feb 8, 2009 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
So here we go. Let me simply what I’ve made complicated with confusing writing (apologies, it’s getting late):
- Andris Biedrins is obviously a better rebounder than Amare Stoudemire
- I doubt Amare could pull as many boards as Biedrins on the Warriors if they were swapped
- BUT I’m with FJ- the per 36 and TRB% differences project these rebounding differences to be much bigger than I’d bank on them being. I doubt Amare still collects only 8rbp on the Warriors swapped for Biedrins. I still think 10 easy- given the lack of rebounders on this team + some increased motivation.
by Atma Brother ONE on Feb 8, 2009 11:47 PM PST up reply actions
Look at Al Harrington...
If it was the system wouldn’t his rebounds have been inflated as well? He had four years that he rebounded better than his best year for GSW. This season for the Warriors (small sample size, I know) was his worst rebounding year. To be honest his rebounding didn’t change much. His offensive rebounds dropped a little, likely due to being Nellie’s designated 3pt shooter on offense and not being in the neighborhood of the rim.
Or look at Turiaf. Playing the exact same roll as Andris. This season is his Worst rebounding year per minute. I just don’t think that the situation is making that big of a difference for Andris while having little to no effect (even a negative effect) on other big man who have come through this same situation.
If it’s not helping them at all it’s probably not helping Andris all that much. Maybe some but I doubt his performance is as suspicious as you seem to think.
Thing 2
I think what most of the "Well look who he's playing with, of course he gets more rebounds!" advocates forget is:
So, I had this long drawn out explanation… but then I boiled it down to:
When a bad rebounder gives up position, he gives it to his opponent, not his teammates. If Al Harrington is not successfully boxing out Carlos Boozer, that makes Carlos Boozer more likely to grab a rebound, not some third party.
Also, if Andris is so much better than the other rebounders on the Warriors, teams will start to game plan to take him out of the rebounding equation. They’ll hedge multiple rebounders to his side and make the other Warriors grab the rebound, etc. This is likely what happened in late November.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 9, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
Why Boozer?
He doesn’t fit our style. He is a half court PF and would just slow us down. While Amar’e can run I hate his attitude when he doesn’t get the ball (no defense and no rebounding).
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2427~165~3242~1977~2759&teams=28~28~28~9~9&te=&cash=
Hasheem "The Dream" Thabeet or Greg Monroe. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
no!!!!!!!!!!!!!
amare is so overrated…cant rebound and is always mad.m,onta and andris are not worth 1 overrated player and andris and monta are goin 2 be special1 day
giving up monta or biedrins for amare is a terrible move.
fans have been complaining about two things for the past two years.
we need:
1. more rebounding
2. we need interior defense
well amare provides neither of these. COREY freaking MAGGETTE is a better rebounder than amare stoudemire. if we give away either monta or biedrins in a deal, it will only reverify that we have a bunch of morons making decisions in the front office. we haven’t even come close to seeing what monta or biedrins are capable of. they are extremely hard workers (something you can’t say for amare) and i am sure that if we give away either of these guys we will soon regret it. monta will be a top tier guard, and biedrins is already up there as one of the best centers in the league. they’re both only 23…
?
COREY freaking MAGGETTE is a better rebounder than amare stoudemire.
How do you figure?
Also for what it’s worth, another thing people have been calling for the last few years has been a dominant offensive force inside the paint. He does fit that bill.
Thing 2
...
maggette 6rpg, in 33 minutes
stoudemire 8rpg in 38 minutes
its too close…stoudemire is an atrocious rebounder for his height/size and jumping ability
Call me crazy...
but the stats you just posted seem to prove that Amare is a better rebounder than Maggs. Now if you meant to say that Maggs is a better rebounder for his position (SF vs PF) I could get behind that. Of course if you have the option of having Maggs or Amare play PF for you Amare will get you more rebounds.
Thing 2
god i want dale davis and speedy claxton
warriors dont fish they hunt!
by VonteegoCummings on Feb 8, 2009 10:38 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I'd give up BOTH Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins to get it done
Wait a minute. We need more bigs so gaining amare and losing Dris is not as good as gaining amare and keeping dris! The team is not always gonna play like they did against the jazz last game without more bigs. Montay is expendable cause we have so many smalls but dris is not unless we get another big along with amare and realistically how many bigs are there at Dris’s price that are any better?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 9, 2009 2:22 PM PST reply actions
so we give up Monta or Andris
I thought we wanted to keep them? I mean, isn’t that why JRich got traded?
Also realistically, they will not accept a trade without Monta or Beans, I’m hoping they would for something like Maggs + Wright but guess not
I will always be your fan JRich. Good Luck
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