Polling GSoM: Big Man A or Big Man B?
by Atma Brother ONE on Mar 2, 2009 8:41 PM PST
in Polling GSoM
67 comments
I was looking over player stats across the association today and this pair of players really made me take a second to pause. Oddly enough, both are listed with the exact same height and weight. Neither is a good defender, so I don't think they have some amazing missing dimension that the stats aren't accounting for. It should be noted that Big Man A has played about 3 more minutes a game this season than his counterpart. Let's see what the mighty GSoM faithful thinks.
Big Man A
- 13.8 ppg (46.6% FG, 43.0% 3pt, 81.0% FT)
- 11.8 rpg (2.0 offensive, 9.8 defensive)
- 2.4 assists : 1.5 turnovers
- 0.4 blocks
- 0.8 steals
- 3.3 fouls
Big Man B
- 12.8 ppg (57.1% FG, 0 3's attempted, 56.0% FT)
- 11.6 rpg (3.9 offensive, 7.7 defensive)
- 2.0 assists : 1.8 turnovers
- 1.6 blocks
- 1.1 steals
- 3.8 fouls
JUMP after you've rocked the VOTE...
Player A is none other than...
[Troy Murphy Yahoo! Player Profile]
Player B is none other than...
[Andris Biedrins Yahoo! Player Profile]
Surprised? Would you change your vote if you knew the names before you voted?
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beans
purely the fact of the draft years.
Troy Murphy, 2001
Andris Biedrins, 2004
3 more years Beans will be a force.
this can’t be said with TMurph
at least i’d hope to think so.
The Beginning of the "We Believe" Movement of Melbourne, Australia.
by DoomBizzle on Mar 3, 2009 2:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wooooohoooo i voted for Biedrins too!
Kelenna is mine...;>
by girltothemax on Mar 2, 2009 8:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
interesting speculation. i never really made the comparison. id choose beans though obviously…hes younger too.
by gorillas on Mar 2, 2009 8:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I chose Beans as well.
Nelly has wet dreams about starting Monta at center.
by StSaints408 on Mar 2, 2009 8:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
dang
thought big man A would be like chris bosh, stupid me
by Dub4lif3 on Mar 2, 2009 8:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
A little skewed
I also chose player A, however, I chose him based on how I thought he would fit on the current warriors squad, not on who I thought was the better player. If we didnt have biendrins, turiaf or even randolph, then I wouldve chose player B due to the increase in blocks and steals, no matter how incremental. With the current squad that we have, I would have preferred player B given the better FT% and increased 3’s. After knowing who they are and how this question was posed, I obviously would take Biendrins before the Murph
by rtgunn on Mar 4, 2009 12:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
" I would have preferred player B "
I meant A
by rtgunn on Mar 4, 2009 12:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That 56%FT was a big hint that B was Biedrins.
But I voted for A, because based purely on numbers and nothing else, I figured the better FT% would come in handy at the end of game situations.
by IQofaWarrior on Mar 2, 2009 8:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I made the right choice and I didn’t even have to cheat.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Mar 2, 2009 9:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
“Neither is a good defender” implies that they’re of similar quality. Biedrins has been overmatched when he’s the only big on the court, but he’s played in the paint and had mixed success. The numbers reflect this. Murphy is among the very worst in the game. The numbers reflect this. Writing it off as ‘neither is a good defender’ is a bit slanted.
by jae on Mar 2, 2009 9:11 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Thank you
You pointed out something that was tickling the back my head earlier. That opinionated statement is an invalid statement in a statistical comparison.
by IQofaWarrior on Mar 2, 2009 9:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s difficult. I didn’t want to hint that that Player B (Biedrins) is twice the defender at Player A (Murph), well because 2 times 0 is still 0. Just kidding.
Biedrins is indeed a much better defender than Murph (who doesn’t seem to even try on that end of the floor), but I still think Biedrins is pretty terrible in that area- no positional D, okay weak side D, poor handling of pick and rolls this season (covered on 48minutes.net in depth), and silly fouls by just jumping up straight in the air instead of making a play on the ball which puts people to the line for a high % FT. Biedrins isn’t the worst defender on a terrible defensive roster by any stretch, but I always notice a HUGE defensive upgrade when Turiaf comes in for him (lately). It’s frustrating that his offense (which is incredibly limited as is) is far superior to his D.
I believe the stats, blocks and steals, even though they aren’t a perfect barometer of D reflect that Player B is better than Player A in this case. I had to make it somewhat disguised to make it interesting.
But props to T-Murph. He’s putting up some nice 3pt and FT shooting and rebounding percentages this season. I was surprised.
by Atma Brother ONE on Mar 2, 2009 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"I had to make it somewhat disguised to make it interesting"
You could have just lied and said neither were from the Warriors.
by IQofaWarrior on Mar 2, 2009 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re still selling Biedrins short here.
He can have good positional D (though I must admit that I’m not clear what you mean here, as it seems a hybrid of on the ball, and the needs of the 5 defensively). As far as individual matchup in the on the ball sense: his D varies according to the type of player he is playing: he struggles with the bruiser type, but does well with the more athletic or skilled sort (as long they are also not also a bruiser). This means he does well against a Duncan or Chandler, but struggles against a Z. Randolph and Boozer sort. Part of this is that he struggles to push the bigger player off the block before the ball gets to them.
He is actually an above average to good weak side defender, and has mastered the ability of changing and challenging a shot while also keeping rebounding positioning, and that is a rather rare skill.
Also, you are making too much of the ‘jumping straight in the air instead of making a play on the ball’. This is mostly a device to give some challenge to a shot while trying to avoid a foul. If you challenge more often, you will be called for even more fouls, and the warriors need him to be on the floor. Consider that Turiaf (and every other shot blocker) has to resort to a variety of this tactic when they are required to play heavy minutes. He also isn’t that bad in his judgment of when to do this: sometimes the player gets an and-1, but it certainly isn’t so common as to be generically silly.
However, as you note, he is horrible with the pick and roll.
Adoptive Parent of Francisco Peguero. He can throw, he can run, he can hit(fastballs), and he's Dominican. What else do you need to know?
by haverecords on Mar 2, 2009 11:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I chose A lolz
Hasheem "The Dream" Thabeet or Greg Monroe. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Mar 2, 2009 9:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Owned!
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Mar 2, 2009 9:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking it was vintage Jamison.
Hah.
Hasheem "The Dream" Thabeet or Greg Monroe. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Mar 2, 2009 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
troy murphy?
makes sense… lol my first instinct was its big Z when i saw 3pt%
by tafkasam on Mar 2, 2009 9:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
i thought rasheed
but his rebounds arent close
by it's always sunny in california on Mar 2, 2009 9:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Murphy
Well I chose A. I knew B was beans but I couldn’t think who A was so chose it for the FG and D Reb :/. I guess I don’t have a reason to hate Murphy as much because I wasn’t part of that Era.
by Darkness on Mar 2, 2009 10:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
So funny...
Atma I sniffed you out right away. I had it figured out when I looked at the FG%. You also tipped your hand with the “neither is a good defender” comment. Yeah maybe in your opinion, but player B gets four times the blocks of player A.
When playing center Murphy allows his man to shoot an eFG% of 62.3. Significantly worse than Andris who allows 55.7eFG (not that Andris is an outstanding defender, but he is not in Troy’s league of suckitude). You are right though Turiaf allows 49.5eFG% when playing center which is much better than the other guys. Now if only the other team wouldn’t get three chances against him because nobody rebounds while he is challenging shots.
Very clever idea Atma. It’s always good to challenge people’s preconceptions. Good stuff.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 2, 2009 10:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You know
I was actually considering hiding the shooting percentages to make it more disguised. Biedrins’ FT% and lack of 3pt attempts just gives it away and it’s really not a blind test, which was the goal for this poll. But the comparison minus the shooting percentages is too contrived and distanced. Plus that would mask two of these guys strengths- Biedrins’ high FG% and T-Murph’s impressive 3pt%.
No argument here that Biedrins is a superior defender to Murphy. Doesn’t make him a good defender in my book though.
By the way where did you track down the eFG? Interesting stuff. I’m guessing 82games?
by Atma Brother ONE on Mar 2, 2009 10:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I think you did it just right. It’s tough to give enough info to make it a good comparison without giving away the surprise. I bet Murphy’s stats surprised a lot of people though.
I did get the eFG% stats on 82games. I won’t go so far as to say Andris is a good defender but I think if you take rebounding into consideration he is probably above average. I could be wrong though, because defense is such a hard thing to quantify and the big men on our poor defensive team are put under such duress with all of the penetration that our perimeter guys allow.
If my son takes a nice long nap on Wednesday I might do some research and put together a fanpost on Center’s opponents FG% to see where he stands compared to other guys around the league.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 2, 2009 10:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I also
think you should have pointed out the age as well.
One is a 23 year old who still has room to improve
the other is a 29 year old who is pretty much all he can be.
by saintdee on Mar 2, 2009 11:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Atma, my friend
your cynical ways are known to us. And thats coming from me, the worst cynic amongst them. I knew you were trying to be clever in you poll somehow and I voted B.
There is no way you would rather have TMurph instead of Andris, right? If you would bust out the evidence or some stats so a certain stats guy(jae) can rip you apart. : )
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Mar 2, 2009 11:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Your Stats Carefully omitted any mention of 3 pointers!
Murph is killing the 3’s this year.!
by NaturalBornBaller on Mar 2, 2009 11:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Look again...
Big Man A
13.8 ppg (46.6% FG, 43.0% 3pt, 81.0% FT)
11.8 rpg (2.0 offensive, 9.8 defensive)
2.4 assists : 1.5 turnovers
0.4 blocks
0.8 steals
3.3 fouls
Big Man B
12.8 ppg (57.1% FG, 0 3’s attempted, 56.0% FT)
11.6 rpg (3.9 offensive, 7.7 defensive)
2.0 assists : 1.8 turnovers
1.6 blocks
1.1 steals
3.8 fouls
see…
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 3, 2009 12:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I voted B.....
Why?…..
I had no clue who it might be…but for me….
FT’s…meh
3pt’ers for big men…. a little less meh…
Blocks!!!!!! OH HELL YES!…. One of my favourite parts of the game is seeing a centre just watch, judge and time his jump to absolutely destroy somone’s offence!
AKA…Deron Williams landing on his Ass! when he was absolutely OWNED when trying to make a layup…I think it was Turiaf that just whacked the ball away and it gave the crowd a huge boost!
All the other stats are great and if picking a true centre…blah blah blah….. but for me in this case not even caring who the guys are….. the blke with the big “swotty hands” gets my vote!
It’s a nice fluke that it happened to be Biedrins….out of interest, what are Ronny’s numbers like? They probably improved quite a bit in the last few weeks?
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 3, 2009 12:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I picked B
Because of the marked improvement in defense.
by ryogahibiki on Mar 3, 2009 12:32 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I went with B
And I made my decision off of the difference in blocks, steals and FG%. Looks like I chose right cause I’d be pissed if I had chose Murphy.
"Maybe I need somebody that can save me from the parts of myself that keep making me crazy" -Slug-
by drizztismoneybaby on Mar 3, 2009 6:56 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Whew..
luckily i voted B, but Troy’s numbers aint bad though.
From the roots to branches to the leaves, they say apples don't fall far from the tree.
by V-TownDub on Mar 3, 2009 8:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
You also fail to mention
Player A takes 10.4 shots to get his 13.8 points (1.326PPS)
Player B takes 9.4 shots to get his 12.8 (1.362PPS)
Even with a much lower FT% and a non-existent 3pt%, Player B scores more efficiently. You probably did as well as you could without giving too much away, but any idiot should have guessed that one of the two was a Warrior… though it appears that some didn’t.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Mar 3, 2009 9:01 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Those are very, very similar scoring efficiency numbers. By “true shooting” they’re similarly close and it matters a bit how you weight a FT attempt in terms of probable possessions, but they seem to have similar scoring offense numbers.
The big difference is on defense though. Biedrins is mostly neutral to the Warriors defense this year. Even with a better defender backing him up, there’s not a huge difference in team performance with or without him. (I interpret this to mean that with one big in the game most of the time, he’s overmatched no matter what, whether he’s good at handling the paint or not.)
by jae on Mar 3, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Glad your so high on yourself Dubs Fan in Boston... must be hard being so gifted?
To call anyone who didnt consider either one to be a Warrior as being an idiot.
High quality from you as always!
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 3, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yay for me!!!
I’m glad I annoy you.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
by Dubs fan in Boston on Mar 4, 2009 7:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you shoulda..
kept T-Murph as A and then mad B Al Harrington.
Blind eyes can look at me and see the truth!
by ItsDatFriscoSwag25 on Mar 3, 2009 10:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I actually would not...
…mind having Murph back on our team right now. I actually never disliked him. I was a Dunleavy hater! If we could have traded Dunleavy for Jack straight up, I would do it. Nothing against Al, because I liked Al a lot, but Murph always rebounded well, even as a Warrior. He could have been very useful for this squad.
Blind eyes can look at me and see the truth!
by ItsDatFriscoSwag25 on Mar 3, 2009 10:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
At the time of the trade, most of the discussion was that Dunleavy and Harrington were the keys with Diogu as the wildcard and Jax was the afterthought of afterthoughts. Posts from that time almost never focused on Jax as anything other than a less expensive contract than Dunleavy or Murphy.
Murphy is one of the rare players whose defense is so bad that the rather good rebounding numbers and offensive abilities do not compensate enough. He was a better player before his foot injury but has morphed from a slow big man who played aggressively into a slug.
by jae on Mar 3, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yea I know...
I always liked Jackson as a basketball player, even during his time with the San Antonio Spurs. No one was thinking that he was going to be the key player in the trade. Indy just wanted to get rid of him because of the brawl incident and they were just trying to clean up their image. Donnie Walsh Al Harrington and didn’t want to part ways with him but desperately wanted to get rid of Jack and Mullin knew that, so they pushed hard to get Harrington. Harrington was supposed to be the key player in the trade. Jasikevicus was not a bad piece in the deal as well and Powell was just a filler. I remember myself not wanting to give up Ike Diogu but now look at him.
I actually forgot who the other guy was that we traded. I know it was four of our guys for four of their guys right?
Blind eyes can look at me and see the truth!
by ItsDatFriscoSwag25 on Mar 3, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Keith McLeod, currently in the D League
I have absolutely no memory of this guy.
by IQofaWarrior on Mar 3, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ohhhh yeaaahh!!
haha Keith McLeod…didn’t he play for the Jazz for a while? I really can’t recall too much about him…good memory IQofaWarrior!
Blind eyes can look at me and see the truth!
by ItsDatFriscoSwag25 on Mar 3, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I cheated, haha
I looked it up
by IQofaWarrior on Mar 3, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have absolutely no memory of this guy.
There’s lots of names like that floating around in warriors fans minds, Richard Hendrix?Marcus Williams?? Montay Ellis???
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 3, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
meaningless
Murphy is expected to score, Biedrins is not.
Biedrins doubles his offensive rebounds ( 2nd chance points ) and Biedrins does play good D. He just has 0 other people helping him. Its hard to look good on D, when you have no weakside help, and you are the lone Defensive force on the court 60% of the time, sometimes when Jack feels like playing D there are 2 players!
by sjboy on Mar 3, 2009 10:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Defense
Saying they are both poor defenders is asinine. Andris is a quality defender. It’s not his fault that most of the time he plays alongside power forwards who are natural 2 guards. Murphy is among the absolute worst defenders in the league. He never looks to provide any help D. That’s why such an abnormally high percentage of his rebounds come on the defensive end. This is just a ridiculous comparison.
by sjsnider on Mar 3, 2009 10:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
It was already obvious that B was Biedrins
It was just a matter of who A was, I looked at the post before I voted and I still voted for Troy Murphy. Troy is easily the better offensive player and a good rebounder too. Biedrins is irrelevant on offense, he’s almost always invisible on the offensive end and is just a glorified garbage man. “But he has great hands!!”…. lol.
But since Biedrins is a Warrior, i’ll be biased and change my vote to him, also he’s much younger and has potential.
by Precise Films Productions on Mar 3, 2009 11:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
If Biedrins gets as many points as Murphy using the same number of possessions, how is his contribution less relevant than Murphy’s? Those garbage points count just as much as ones that come as “part of the offense”.
by jae on Mar 3, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
AB1
Stop looking for ways to trash Biedrins. We get it. You don’t think he’s any good at D, and you think he’s generally overrated by W’s fans.
And this comparison makes no sense. The two players play different positions against generally different opposition in completely different offensive systems. I’m still waiting for you to dig up this brilliant quantitative data when Andris plays in a conventional lineup (which I have defined as AB playing with a real power forward, Turiaf, Wright, or maybe Kurz). Then, and only then, can you truly evaluate Biedrins.
by UncleCliffy on Mar 3, 2009 1:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
YAY! I win!
Troy Murphy is a punk. He gave up on our team in his last few seasons here. Say what you will say about Dunleavy, but at least he never quit on our team.
by onetwocross on Mar 3, 2009 1:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
REALLY off topic
But anyone watch Around the Horn today!!!? They bashed nellie for a whole segment! I love that show
by 123707THIZZ on Mar 3, 2009 2:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah they did.
All four guests basically said he’s caving it in 2 months early, rather than 2 weeks early like other lottery bound teams sometimes do…Not having one of your starters play and not suit up is wrong to the fans….Who is Marco Belinelli?
I don’t necessarily agree. I have been a season ticket holder for a while now and I am interested in watching Jack get less minutes in favor of Morrow, etc.
by onetwocross on Mar 4, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Open thread?
Hey, uh, you’re cutting the open thread kinda close today.
by IQofaWarrior on Mar 3, 2009 4:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
btw, is this the game thread for minnesota game tonight?
I will always be your fan JRich. Good Luck
by chili01 on Mar 3, 2009 5:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Timberwolves were just playing Miss Independent by Ne-Yo
while the game was going on. What the hell is going on in Minnesota?!?!
San Jose Sabercats. 2009 Arena Football Champions........Oh wait a second.
by sloth11 on Mar 3, 2009 5:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I chose Andris
I almost went bit Big Man A though because of free throw percentage, but I went with Big Man B because of overall field goal percentage and I like that Big Man B (Andris) had no 3 pointers ( I guess I feel better with a big man who doesn’t try to shoot it from outside (unless hes Rasheed Wallace))
by Aware1 on Mar 3, 2009 7:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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