Take a moment......
by bucknall20 on Mar 23, 2009 10:41 PM PDT
120 comments
RIP Officer John Hege, Sgt. Daniel Sakai, Sgt. Ervin Romans, and Sgt. Mark Dunakin.
Four officers from Oakland PD were killed in the line of duty on Saturday, March 21, 2009. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends of our fallen brethren and to all members of OPD.
Take a few moments to read this article in honor of these brave four men:
On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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What was it that Ice-T said about the cops……..
"Don't be nervous, Be at their service".
by SlimShady on Mar 24, 2009 12:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
before or after
he played one on t.v ?
I am Greg Oden, i am goingz to be trade to The Warrior. hoooray.
Warriors for life. Raiders till death. And The A's when i get free tickets.
by STIX on Mar 26, 2009 3:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really a terrible tragedy- my thoughts to the victims’ families. The killer- a convicted violent offender- should never have gotten parole in the first place.
But I can’t side with Mr. Grossman on this one. Saying “there are evil men in the world and they are capable of evil deeds” is a dangerous oversimplification of society’s ills. The real wolves are poverty, intolerance, poor education, etc. (I challenge you to define evil without invoking religion or morality- in other words, subjectivity.)
A gun in every classroom, a gun in every house of worship, a gun in every citizen’s hand: is this the best solution we can come up with? If we, society, construct reality as guns and violence, that is the world we will live in.
Tolerance and respect isn’t nearly as exciting as “the ultimate warrior”, but I will take my chances with brotherhood rather than bullets.
by antihero on Mar 24, 2009 10:20 AM PDT reply actions 6 recs
Tolerance and respect?!
That doesn’t really apply in this incident…..
-Let’s be tolerant and understand that he was depressesd and couldn’t get a job, yet was talking to his uncle on a cellphone about his brand new Buick with 22 inch rims, lets be tolerant that he was broke yet had an assault rifle and handgun
-Lets be tolerant of the fact that his DNA was just linked to a rape. Hey it was only someone’s mother, daughter or sister.
-lets be tolerant and relaize that it was Parole’s fault. He obviously couldnt make it to his mandatory parole hearing due to his busy schedule of (cough,cough) working. Parole is only a privilege.
-lets be tolerant and realize he didnt kill another person in Oakland even though he was identified by a witness, who later was unccoperative in a seperate murder.
Maybe we’ve got it all wrong and this guy should have been giiven another chance. He’s done such a great job with the ones he gotten so far.
Some people just can’t make due witht he chances they have been given. Lets call him what he is a P.O.S.,and not use the ever so enabling word of tolerance in this situation.
by bucknall20 on Mar 24, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying we should tolerate what he did, but we should have enough respect for people- yes, even people who murder- instead of dismissing them as “a P.O.S.”, as if he is just some outlier of society that you can conveniently omit from your study.
If you buy into the worldview that morality is black and white, that some people are just “evil”, then you admit there is no way to solve the problem, and the only thing to do is shoot the problem before it shoots you. But I suppose that’s far easier than actually digging into the issue to find where society failed this particular individual, and how we can prevent this from happening to future generations.
Oh, and you can’t pick and choose when you want to apply tolerance- that kind of goes against the definition of tolerance.
by antihero on Mar 24, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
-1
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 24, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"but we should have enough respect for people- yes, even people who murder- instead of dismissing them as "a P.O.S.", "
I personally have no respect for people who intentionally go out of their way to murder someone. I’m sorry but I think I will do alright living by these standards I have for myself. Most other people would too.
Someone murders your friend, co worker or family member and you are supposed to respect them? Put those shoes on an tell me how you’d do. We should rehabilitate him more then I guess. Waste more time and money on someone who doesnt want to be helped.
by bucknall20 on Mar 24, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, after typing that I realized it would probably not be received well. Instead of unbridled hate (to which you have every right) I would feel, I hope, sadness for both victim and murderer. I believe that people are motivated by self-interest, which can manifest itself in murder. I believe that it’s important to find out what made this person, who I don’t believe was born evil, commit murder.
Dismissing someone as a POS basically denies that there is a problem on society’s end. “Oh he’s just a POS. Born a POS, always a POS, nothing we can do about it!” I don’t believe this attitude solves anything at all.
Honestly, I don’t know what to do with the guy. Quite possibly, he is too far gone. I’m just suggesting that we look out for future generations by getting to the root of the problem.
by antihero on Mar 24, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
sadness for both victim and murderer.
and for ourselves cause we’re all part of the family of mankind. It’s definitely not as simple as that shepherd’s world and we should be glad it’s not. Start pigeon holing people and you get pigeons. You think we could use our knowledge to solve these problems but money and special interests always get in the way. Oh well maybe sometime in my lifetime I’ll see it?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 24, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
-1
poverty, poor education and intolerance are clearly serious ills to society, but in any way using them to excuse indefensible actions is another.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m not excusing his actions. If his defense attorney said in court “this man should be let free because he went to a bad high school” nobody would take that seriously.
I’m just trying to find motives, triggers, what have you- and those seem as good as any. If you have any ideas, do share. Unless you think people just commit “indefensible actions” out of the blue.
by antihero on Mar 24, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless you think people just commit "indefensible actions" out of the blue
Certainly there are causes and choices behind every action, and there are causes behind every choice, but that doesn’t mean some choices aren’t indefensible no matter the causes. Personally I find the notion that we can eradicate evil actions and eliminate the need for punishment and enforcement through knowledge, understanding and tolerance to be incredibly ignorant. Sure it would be fantastic if possible, It goes against human nature, it goes against any nature really. Do we really need to examine this scenario until we can see the shooter as a victim before we can gain understanding?
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
clearly
you aren’t directly excusing his actions, but you do seem to imply that the root of the problem was circumstance. I think dismissing actions to circumstance is inherently excusing the individual of at least some responsibility. The lack of personal responsibility for actions is AT LEAST as big of a problem in today’s society as poverty and poor education.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know how much can be attributed to circumstance vs. choice. And I am certainly not excusing him of anything. Put crudely, even if I believe his actions were 50% circumstance and 50% choice, he still half chose to do a very bad thing, and he should get quite a bit more than a time-out.
At the same time, simply saying “he screwed up” doesn’t help at all. If any part of the problem is due to circumstance, no matter how small, it’s our job to seek it out and take care of it. I think we would all like to help stop something like this from happening again.
by antihero on Mar 24, 2009 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if it exists within everyone and I don’t know that evil is the right word, but this man allowed something to persuade him to kill 4 innocent cops and it wasn’t just his lack of education, or poverty stricken upbringing (assuming he had one) We’ve seen plenty of “evil” actions from the wealthy and well-educated persons in history to believe there is any finite set of controllable circumstances that cause bad or “evil” behavior. I believe there is something, call it evil, or bad, or a little demon or whatever you want within some or all that accounts for these types of actions and we should stop pretending we can get to the root of it and “solve” it once and for all. The best way to prevent such problems is to discourage such actions not search to solve any of the infinite number of unsolvable root causes.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if it exists within everyone and I don’t know that evil is the right word, but this man allowed something to persuade him to kill 4 innocent cops and it wasn’t just his lack of education, or poverty stricken upbringing (assuming he had one) We’ve seen plenty of “evil” actions from the wealthy and well-educated persons in history to believe there is any finite (now I’m speaking your language) set of controllable circumstances that cause bad or “evil” behavior. I believe there is something, call it evil, or bad, or a little demon or whatever you want within some or all that accounts for these types of actions and we should stop pretending we can get to the root of it and “solve” it once and for all. The best way to prevent such problems is to discourage such actions not search to solve any of the infinite number of unsolvable root causes.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you propose to discourage such actions? Make an example of the murderer? He will be punished according to the law, as have others before him, yet this didn’t stop him from doing it. Arm the citizens, as Mr. Grossman suggests? I think that opens a whole different can of worms.
There may be an infinite number of root causes, but I believe they all come down to (hippie alert) love. All you need is love, love- love is all you need! So in response to this act of hate, I’m going to be extra friendly to everybody I meet. You know, restoring cosmic balance and all that.
by antihero on Mar 24, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you propose to discourage such actions?
One thing I noticed was none of the slain officers lived in the town. It couldn’t hurt to hire locals for the jobs so the people trust the police more. If they know the cop cause he grew up on the block they are less likely to wanna kill him.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 25, 2009 7:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cops have a tendancy to not want to live where they work, because they don’t want to go to the store for groceries with their kids/family and see the same guy who he put in jail for whatever and have to deal with that issue. The job is hard enough, why would they want to subject their kids/family to that. It’s not like someone is suddenly gonna accept responsibility for their actions just because, Officer Soandso played He-Man with Parolee Soandso’s little brother down the street. It comes down to personal responsibility from crooks.
I doubt this skid mark asked where these guys grew up prior to murdering them, or knew by shooting blindly through a wall that the other SWAT sergants were not from the town.
Yeah that’d be great in theory, but that didn’t even work “Calvin at Wackarnold’s.”
by bucknall20 on Mar 25, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only do they not want to live where they work, a lot of big city cops are encouraged or even required to live outside the city limits. I don’t know the OPD’s policy but several of my friends who are cops in LA, Irvine, and SF are all strongly encouraged to live outside their work cities. Skep I think your theory applies well to small towns, but I think it does more harm than good for city cops.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 25, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Skep I think your theory applies well to small towns, but I think it does more harm than good for city cops.
Hi Sammy, I’d like to hope that a city could be a collection of small neighborhoods where the people enjoy the benefits of a small town including knowing their neighbors and their law enforcement. The consent to be governed is the foundation of a free country and it’s easier and smarter to consent to someone you trust.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 25, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t disagree, I just don’t know how realistic that goal is.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 25, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t know how realistic that goal is.
Well young folks like you are the future, you are gonna hafta work hard to make the world a better place. I’m sad to say my generation has not made the best of the possibilities, we waste new technology and knowledge arguing about the past and present instead of applying it to the future.
I think you’ll do better .
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 25, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+10000
Please don’t have tolerance for a man like this. Call it how it is; the man is a horrible person. There are plenty of people with problems, poverty, poor education, ect. ect. That is not, nor will never be, an excuse to rape and murder another person. I’m in no means a red-neck republican, but tolerance and excuses are for pu$$**s in this situation. Imagine that was your father, son, family or friend that was killed. Then tell me you can have tolerance.
by jnormous on Mar 26, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thumbs up
well put, couldn’t have said it much better. And the article kind of said if your not a cop, a soldier or whatever, then you are less of a good person, and that you are automatically in denial, sort of condescending.
by Aware1 on Mar 25, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
-1
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 25, 2009 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly disgusting the drive-by abuse that certain people were shouting.....
on the news reports. I could not believe my ears when I was hearing people laughing to the camera crews as they drove past saying “haha police”….
That’s a disgusting lack of respect for guys doing their jobs. Imagine if people were driving past protests about Oscar Grant saying “Haha got what he deserved????”
The hypocracy of certain sections of the Oakland community is truly disgusting.
My thoughts are with the families, the officers served their community in ways many of the disgusting haters never will.
I believe the service on friday will be at the Oracle?
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 24, 2009 10:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Had a really interesting debate about the incident at work
One of the questions asked that I never thought of was whether or not the 2 officers who died after initially pulling over the suspect failed to follow protocol? Dunno if anyone here is a cop or knows a police officer, but we found it curious that 2 veteran police officers who pulled over some “run of the mill” 27 year old would both end up shot and killed after initially questioning a suspect. I don’t know much about police protocol but someone at work told me that 1 cop is suppose to be the “point” officer and the other is suppose to be support, in case of a situation like this had occured, in order to prevent such a incident. Anyone have any idea?
by kyzah on Mar 24, 2009 10:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They didnt get chance.....
Eye witness reports stated that just as the two cops had pulled him over and one was getting off his bike, the guy got out of the car with the gun already pulled and just fired straight at them, after hitting them he walked up to the guys on the ground and shot them again…..
If as I suspect they may have just been doing a random traffic stop, they would have had no idea who he was or that they were likely to have someone confront them with a gun so swiftly.
Many are quick to dismiss the actions of police officers a being heavy handed and over forceful when making stops and many feel this is race related, however I suspect that these two officers were just doing their job in as “un-confrontational” way as possible and this may just have cost them their lives.
Tragic shame and I hope that little scroat burns for eternity for it.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 24, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I believe the service on friday will be at the Oracle?
If so I hope basketball fans can put out a good show of support and sadness for our community and our officers. I have to agree with Rodney King when he said “Can’t we all just get along?”
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 24, 2009 10:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hard that there will be over 18,000 in the arena and many more outside....
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 25, 2009 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know anything about the policemen killed so I’ll pass on personal judgment and just say rest in peace. As far as Grossman, however, he really oversimplifies the role of the policeman in his speech. Maybe ideally, the policeman are sheepdogs, but I think he neglects to mention that there are certain cops that are wolves in sheepdogs’ clothing. Under the guise of protecting the citizens, they overstep their authority and and commit wolf-like actions. They give a bad name to the police institution, and cause these sheep he speaks of (which I think is another oversimplification, but I’ll play along) to dislike, or even hate the sheepdogs. This might be unfair, but he simplifies it to sheepdog get no respect, without explaining why.
It’s a tough call, because the sheep are too vulnerable to sheepdog wolves if they are too powerful and the actual sheepdogs can’t do their jobs if they don’t have enough power.
by belilaugh on Mar 24, 2009 12:49 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
And +1 to antihero’ s comments.
First and foremost, a horrible crime, and a horrible tragedy for the officer and his family.
That doesn’t make Mr. Grossman’s comments any less simplistic or annoying. Sheepdogs, Sheep, and Wolves? Come on, man. People are freaking people.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 24, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously?
the main thing you took away from this was possibly a poor analogy by Grossman? And you admit to not knowing anything about the policemen killed and then proceed to talk about police corruption?
but I think he neglects to mention that there are certain cops that are wolves in sheepdogs’ clothing.Considering there has been no substantial suggestion of police corruption involved would it have been at all appropriate to mention that? Yes, those few do give the majority of the police a bad name, bad enough for us to be talking about THEM when we should be remembering fallen heroes who risked and lost their lives in an effort to serve and protect the rest of us. Imagine if the police allowed the criminals they encounter to distort their view of the civilian population the way the few corrupt police officers has corrupted our view of all of them. Come on now, let’s at least pretend to have a little respect.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A complete misinterpretation of what I said.
The rest in peace was to these specific policemen.
The other comments were concerning Grossman’s speech, which I have no idea if he wrote connected to this incident, I assumed it didn’t. ALl the author wrote was “in honor of”, but I assumed he was saying read it as a way of paying tribute to the dead. So I did with those intentions, but what I read seemed to be a general explanation of the role of “sheepdogs” in our society, and not an actual tribute to these 4 men.
From my comments, isn’t it obvious that I was talking about the role of “sheepdogs” in our society in general? How could you possibly go from that to “at least pretend to have a little respect.” don’t tell me that I do not have respect, I paid my respect literally in the first sentence to emphasize it.
You yourself admitted there were a few corrupt police officers, and those police officers have corrupted the public’s view of all the rest of them. That literally was all I was saying. I was explaining why the author’s simplification was incorrect. That is literally it.
If bucknall would have kept it to “RIP to the 4 policemen, let’s honor them” I would have kept it to that too. But he posted an article that went into another topic of discussion, so I commented on that too.
Come on now, you pick these non-existent battles on nearly every non-basketball comment I write. I never condemned these 4 cops as corrupt, and framing it to make it seem like I did is a pretty low blow man.
by belilaugh on Mar 25, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t know/understand why you would feel the need to bring up police corruption at all
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 25, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was in response to what I felt was Grossman’s oversimplification of the “sheep” being wary of the “sheepdogs”. It was a relevant point to that article IMO.
by belilaugh on Mar 26, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if it exists within everyone and I don’t know that evil is the right word, but this man allowed something to persuade him to kill 4 innocent cops and it wasn’t just his lack of education, or poverty stricken upbringing (assuming he had one) We’ve seen plenty of “evil” actions from the wealthy and well-educated persons in history to believe there is any finite (now I’m speaking your language) set of controllable circumstances that cause bad or “evil” behavior. I believe there is something, call it evil, or bad, or a little demon or whatever you want within some or all that accounts for these types of actions and we should stop pretending we can get to the root of it and “solve” it once and for all. The best way to prevent such problems is to discourage such actions not search to solve any of the infinite number of unsolvable root causes.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok my computer went nuts and decided to post that comment all over the place, my apologies to everyone trying to read this thread.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
must be the evil in it?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 24, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
stop making excusing for terrible people...
It’s also a lazy oversimplification to blame “society for failing” someone as a knee-jerk reaction, as if that’s the only possible cause. There are people who are just dangerous, always will be. They’re rare, but they exist. I’ve known or known of 3 or 4 people who I’d classify as evil or sociopathic. This guy raped at least one 12 year old, and is implicated in other rapes and murders, and has been convicted of assaults, carjacking (with a gun), etc. I’ve taught lots of high school kids (in Oakland) who could claim that society failed them, but none of them would do this. That’s because they’re not P’s O.S., he is.
I won’t apologize for calling a murdering, thieving, child rapist evil. I’m all for an enlightened, healthy society, but I disagree w/ the underlying premise that everyone is intrinsically good. The vast majority are, but people like this just aren’t.
by oldschoolish on Mar 24, 2009 8:25 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I really don’t understand why you think the vast majority is intrinsically good, but some people are intrinsically evil. Perhaps you can explain your reasoning?
by antihero on Mar 24, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if I would be so black and white as to say that some are good and few are evil, but the history of human-kind seems to indicate that evil exists within some regardless of circumstance. Or perhaps evil exists within all, either way it clearly exists, has always existed and won’t be solved with a little more effort towards tolerance.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 24, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You lost me at "evil exists within some/all"
Does evil exist within me? You? oldschoolish?Sleepy Freud? Should I cut myself open to find out? Should I keep an eye on my right shoulder in case a little demon pops up?
I think the word is far too subjective, far too predicated upon one’s personal sense of morality, to belong in a rational argument.
I can’t be bothered to come up with a better explanation for all the (typically seen as) “evil” acts through history, but I trust there is one beyond “evil exists within some/all”. But I’m a math major on spring break :)
by antihero on Mar 24, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
to answer your question...
I can’t really explain my reasoning at 10 pm having to work tomorrow, (I’m not trying to write a book here). But you ask a good question—I guess the best I can do is tell you that most being (basically) “good/decent” people and a very few being “evil” has been my experience. I use these simplistic terms not to oversimplify, but to make a basic point w/o having to spend too much time—we’re on a discussion forum, you know. There are some on this thread who criticize the imperfect categories of good/bad (of course they’re too simple—I wouldn’t use them in a doctoral dissertation), but some of them go on to basically deliver the same message:
This one killer may indeed be an unredeemably terrible human being, but the vast majority of people — be they cops, felons, or average dudes — are too complex to be pigeonholed into such juvenile and facile categories.
by oldschoolish on Mar 24, 2009 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Sheepdogs, Sheep, and Wolves? Come on, man. People are freaking people."
ANALOGY. a⋅nal⋅o⋅gy [uh-nal-uh-jee]
–noun, plural -gies. 1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
Kinda like when someone says Anthony Randolph is a freak, or Biedrins is a beast.
I enjoyed the read and thought it to be very well written. My opinion. At any rate a tragic loss which was the point of my initial post. These four Police Officers were heroes and from what I’m told by friends at the OPD, they were the cream of the crop. The department has lost four of it’s best. Years and years of experience. Oakland is very much, worse off after this loss huge loss. It’s quite sad and disturbing regarding the accounts of individuals driving by the crime scene and mocking the police. There needs to be more respect for the police they have an extremely hard job.
by bucknall20 on Mar 24, 2009 8:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I get the analogy.
I just think it’s simplistic and reductionist to categorize people like that. This one killer may indeed be an unredeemably terrible human being, but the vast majority of people — be they cops, felons, or average dudes — are too complex to be pigeonholed into such juvenile and facile categories.
Anyway, I agree with your basic point, and I also find it horrifying that anyone would mock or make light of such a terrible tragedy. (And I should have said “officers and their familes”). I do think most of us underrate how important it is to our quality of life that the rule of law be enforced firmly and fairly.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 24, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe someone here had interacted with one of the fallen heroes....
“Sgt. Mark Dunakin, 40, worked at A’s, Warriors and Raiders games, providing escorts for players and officials, handling traffic duties and extra security.”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/22/SPDJ16L7B5.DTL&feed=rss.sports
by bucknall20 on Mar 24, 2009 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought this when I saw his pic....
I am damn sure he was outside Oracle for a game around Feb time, the reason I remember was the bike was right up near the ticket collection booths. Would make sense in light of the above.
To see “protesters” at the vigil tonight made me want to either puke or start biatch slapping some manners into some folk. Reports tonight also told of youth’s “spitting” on the memorial spot…….
Again….how would many of them feel if people started spitting on the grave of Oscar Grant? Both OG and these officers did not deserve to die, no matter what and I think it’s disgraceful that people can protest against the police one week then spit on the site of a police officer murder, is frankly disgusting.
Shows a lack of respect, a lack of class, a lack of any formal right or being to be in society. Again, strip these little thugs of their guns and let some of us loose on them and they will learn respect VERY quickly.
This has a very real chance of creating even greater racial hatred in the area. So many of these little “Gangsters” want respect, want this, want that, dont want people to treat them in a certain way…etc, etc…. maybe they reap what they sow???? Hopefully a few more scumbags like this Mixon guy get wiped from the face of the planet as they truly serve no purpose to society whatsoever.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 25, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Much respect to the officers.
As that is what I am pursuing.
RIP to all 4, they’ve been in my prayers for awhile.
Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Mar 25, 2009 12:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll say it again obians comment warrants a ban from these forums.
If a single one of you GSOM mods has a an ounce of decency in you, that crap above can never be allowed on this forum.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 1:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Given the timing, that may be the lowest comment I’ve read on GSoM. All I can think is that the “mods” haven’t read this thread.
At the same time, Brit, it’s not like your hysterical and borderline racist rants on the subject are particularly welcome or appropriate in a thread whose point is simply to “take a moment” to pay tribute to the fallen officers. (And I won’t bother to comment on your laugahbly one-sided view of the conflict in Northern Ireland).
All I can say is props to the GSoM community for being cool-headed enough not to take his bait or yours (that group now excludes me, alas…)
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 27, 2009 6:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sleepy...
Which part of what I have said is “Hysterical” or “Racist”…. I have stated facts as they have occured and given my view that such behaviour is pretty disgusting.
What I find typical is how if somone disagree’s with “liberal” views that said people are the first ones to start throwing personal insults back?
Strange how how such wie and open thinkers see fit to dismiss others views as hysterical or Racist. I notice you dont discuss anything of the racist behaviour of the protsters?
Maybe when you have been threatened by people that want to kill you, you may understand why some of us have strong opinions about this. As to Northern Ireland what the hell do you know about that conflict? Half my family is there, I have served there and I have had friends killed there.
Laugh at that all you like, just again shows the lack of respect you have for anyone who has a different opinion to you.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When did I laugh?
Nothing funny about it.
I totally respect different opinions from my own, and I even understand the empassioned (or "hysterical") tone of your posts, given how recent the events are. I guess I just don’t think it’s appropriate to make such a strong political statement in a thread that’s meant simply to honor and remember the fallen officers. Really, race is only an issue in this story to the extent that you’re making it an issue, by focusing morbidly on the inappropriate reaction of a few nutty people who had nothing to with the murders.
As far as Northern Ireland: well, for what it’s worth, I lived in the UK for a couple years, have family there, and even have cousins and great aunts in Northern Ireland (protestant, if that matters to you). But even if I didn’t, I think I’m probably perfectly qualified as a citizen of the world to have an opinion on the conflict; I may even be more objective than you, as a former British soldier. I don’t really abide violence in any form, but at the same time, when you have an occupying imperialist force in a foreign land — be they England in Ireland, or England in India, or England in America (way back when), or America in Vietnam, or America in Iraq — it’s only natural for the people of that land to do everything in their power to make them get the heck out. One person’s “terrorists” are another person’s “freedom fighters.”
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 27, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not going to make an isse of the NI observations..however..
The mistaken view is that the British Army was an “occupying force”, that is flatly false. As A: Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and B: By that great thing you hold so dear “Democracy”, the “Majority” of the people of Northern Ireland by democratic vote and opinion have wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom. How therefore does a minority group get to change the will of the people of that country?
All of my comments below and above discuss the oakland “Majority” of all decent people irrelevent of race and colour, however I personally do not believe it is rght or proper for anyone of any other race other than African American, to condemn the lunatics protesting for the very reason that I DO NOT want this to become a race issue.
I personally have never understood the obsession in this country to be “African American” “Asian American” “Euro American”…etc etc. Everyone in this country should simply be “American” there should be no reference to anyones sexuality, race or anything else that seperates them from anyone else.
We should all consider ourselves part of ONE community and that one community joining together to completely and un-reservedly condemn the actions of this one truly evil and bad man.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to pursue N.I. either
And I’m sure you know a great deal more about it than I do. However, do you not see that if you happened to be Irish, your take on the situation would be quite different? From wikipedia, just for the record (feel free to correct the record if you find any of this to be false):
The British government’s point of view is that its forces were neutral in the conflict, trying to uphold law and order in Northern Ireland and the right of the people of Northern Ireland to democratic self-determination.
Irish republicans, however, regarded the state forces as “combatants” in the conflict, alleging collusion between the state forces and the loyalist paramilitaries as proof of this. The “Ballast” investigation by the Police Ombudsman has confirmed that British forces, and in particular the RUC, did collude with loyalist paramilitaries, were involved in murder, and did obstruct the course of justice when such claims had previously been investigated, although the extent to which such collusion occurred is still hotly disputed.
I basically agree with you on your thoughts about unity v. division, though I think it’s always a lot easier to call for “unity” when you’re part of the empowered majority than when you’re part of the oppressed minority.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Mar 27, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only that, the dominant power in any situation is the filter through which the story is told. Everything we hear, is what the British government tells us. Just like in Israel, all we know of what goes on in Palestine is what the Israeli government tells us. Or in Iraq…at least until the media decided it was safe to switch their opinion (but still).
And with a party with so much at stake, to take their views as completely unbiased is naive and foolish. A lot of “terrorists” exist because they oppose the original tellers of the story, they are not absolutely evil, but relatively evil. (I am not including all who are put under the term terrorists here, but for one thing, someone told me that a few corrupt cops should not taint our whole view of the police force. Okay, then a few extreme fundamentalists should not distort our whole view of people fighting for their freedom. And also, if you lived in Ira, and got all your news from Iraqi sources, you better believe that you would consider Bush and Cheney terrorists, because that is the side you were receiving info from.)
by belilaugh on Mar 27, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I strongly disagree with many parts of that, but we should probably take this and Sleepy and Brit’s N.I. discussion elsewhere if we are going to continue it.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 27, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the problem with wiki...anyone can write anything..
“The "Ballast" investigation by the Police Ombudsman has confirmed that British forces, and in particular the RUC, did collude with loyalist paramilitaries, were involved in murder, and did obstruct the course of justice when such claims had previously been investigated, although the extent to which such collusion occurred is still hotly disputed”
Not one of my fellow colleagues was ever involved in Murder nor were we or the RUC colluding with loyalist paramilitaries. To me a Terrorist is a terrorist, someone that involves themselves in the taking of innocent lives by choice and deliberate action, is someone that serves no purpose to community.
You may also be surprised to know that the majority of Irish people in Ireland were flatly against the actions of the IRA.
There as in here, the actions of a small minority group should never be allowed to affect the community a large.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You deleted my comment?
But not this one?
Screw you mods.
Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Mar 27, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same mate...
so I re-posted…. so that was two replies that were deleted and yet that one stayed, neither ofour comments had swear words in, so I can only think they were deleted by human hand rather than autobot. If that is the case….pretty disgusting.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?!?!?
Atma, RDizzle, FJ and any other admin on the site,
One of you guys came in here and cleaned up responses to this comment without removing the most offensive and uncalled for remark in the entire thread? I really hope this was an accident. I feel like I’ve extended you the benefit of the doubt for leaving it up for so long but at this point I have to assume you are making some sort of statement.
Would this have stayed up if the word “cop” was replaced with any other group? I don’t think so. Take this garbage down and please apologize for what was either a stupid mistake or incredibly bad judgment.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 27, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
One of you guys came in here and cleaned up responses to this comment without removing the most offensive and uncalled for remark in the entire thread?
perhaps the most offensive and uncalled for remark in the history of GSoM? I can’t remember anything else that hateful since I’ve been around.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 27, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
obiandandy BANNED
Man this is just silly. I personally hid this same exact comment from obiandandy (and a few other lowly and barbaric cop killer comments) and literally a day later obiandandy reposts the same nonsense.
One dumb post like that, I’m willing to let go as an error in judgement. But a second time? What’s wrong with some people?
Thanks to BritWarriorGSW for the heads up about this in my last front page blog post. I probably wouldn’t have known otherwise. I haven’t checked this thread since the morning of the 24th, which was over 3 days ago.
Well here’s the deal now. If I hide obiandandy’s comment now every single comment in this thread will be hidden because of the frontend threading design. I don’t want to lose all your thoughts. Let obiandandy hang himself/herself.
by Atma Brother ONE on Mar 27, 2009 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the explanation. Sorry for all the mod badmouthing.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 27, 2009 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well done sir...
Hoped the only reason it stayed was you guys had not seen it….. ditto Sams comment, that one comment truly ruffled many feathers!
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 28, 2009 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so
did you just make a fake account because you have an incredibly inappropriate sense of humor or are you just generally an ignorant prick?
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 25, 2009 9:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He's probably a high school sophmore who doesn't know anything about real life yet.
I can’t take anyone with that attitude seriously.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 25, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grace
from tragedy -
one (or more) of the fallen officers saved more lives after dying, as an organ donor. We can all do that, simply designate it on your DMV, and tell your significant other in case the time comes and there’s a question.
by hardcore on Mar 25, 2009 10:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
More protests tonight at the scene of the shooting....
A “minority” of people decided in their great wisdom to protest the police at the scene of the shooting of the officers tonight. They are either:
A: The most disrespectful assholes on the face of the planet.
B: Are looking to create a huge tide of hate back toward them and thus turning this possibly into a huge racial conflict.
C: Possibly the most stupid assholes in Oakland
D: The only ones who seem to have issues with the police because possibly they cannot abide by the law and thus never have to face a police officer.
I like many others I am sure, am really starting to boil with that small group that are hinting that these officers in some way shape of form had this coming to them?
However, I would also like the “majority” of the black community to now TURN AGAINST their “brothers” to take charge of these assholes in their community so that this cannot be turned into a race issue. Just as the Muslim community must do it’s part not to hide the terrorists in it’s midsts, so must the Oakland community now show these assholes themselves that this “minority” group does NOT represent Oakland or the views of it’s inhabitants.
Single them out…cast them aside…. if they are not controlled, they will do more harm to the image of african americans throughout the country than any white police officer will ever do.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 25, 2009 11:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Man we got beat really badly by the Mavericks tonight! But Morrow lite it up, Monta looked…oh wait, wrong thread
WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...
by JustSomeName on Mar 25, 2009 11:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Single them out…cast them aside…. if they are not controlled, they will do more harm to the image of african americans throughout the country than any white police officer will ever do.
No it makes more sense to figure out why they feel this way and solve the problem, people don’t protest without a reason. It might not be harder than hiring more cops from their neighborhood?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 26, 2009 10:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
people don’t protest without a reason.
People often protest without any good reason.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
People often protest without any good reason.
Haha, maybe not a good reason to you but you gotta respect their opinion too. That’s what gets us into mess’s like iraq, thinking we are the only one’s who’s opinion matters.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 26, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so
should we spend time trying to understand the Ku Klux Klan’s perspective? Come on man, theres no excuse for either of these ignorant points of view. Theres no excuse for racism and theres no excuse for thinking killing innocent police officers is in any way excusable, much less something to be celebrated. It IS wrong, no matter how you frame it, and saying we need to understand their perspective legitimizes their horrific actions. Its difficult to draw a firm line between right and wrong without upsetting some, but a line needs to exist.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
should we spend time trying to understand the Ku Klux Klan’s perspective?
Understand? yes. Respect (as skeptic implied)? no. I do think that there is value in understanding the views of people which you find ignorant and hateful. Not so you can be more like them, but I think that understanding is a big part of the healing process.
I think it would be silly to ignore the fact that there is still an open wound in this country surrounding the issue of race. We have come so far in this regard but there is still so much residual tension that incidents like this one are so often colored by this underlying tension. Each incident has its own set of unique circumstances but as long as there is this tension there will be some distrust between the white police officers in predominantly black areas and the residents of that area.
I’m not saying that this came into play during this incident but it’s pretty clear that it has had some effect in peoples reactions to this incident and others.
I just don’t buy into the idea that trying to understand someone that you think is wrong legitimizes their actions (remember we are not talking about the shooting itself but the reaction to it). Their actions are not changed at all whether you ignore them or try to understand them. The difference is that if you can find common ground you can heal conflict. Diversity brings interaction which brings understanding and once you know someone it is much harder to dehumanize them (or the group they are a part of) which is necessary to perpetuate systemic distrust and hate.
Think of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I’ve known some Israelis and Palestinians who have been able to find that common ground here in the states when removed from the situation. That is a pretty powerful thing. Listening and understanding one another and celebrating your similarities instead of amplifying you differences are all necessary to do that.
I just wanted to add that my heart goes out to the families of the brave officers. I have a great deal of respect for those who choose to put themselves on the line to protect and serve a community.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 26, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yea I don’t disagree, I guess I didn’t mean we shouldn’t even bother to understand. It’s just that it feels like saying there are a lot of underlying racial tensions or that the O.P.D. should seek to hire more officers from within the community in some ways legitimizes the reactions some are having about this tragedy. I guess its worthwhile to understand why people some people are acting the way they are, as long as we understand those reasons don’t in any way excuse their appalling behavior. Its difficult to say you’re promoting understanding without sounding like you’re offering support to the other side.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its difficult to say you’re promoting understanding without sounding like you’re offering support to the other side.
Sometimes it’s hard to do the right thing but it’s better than not trying. If you can understand it yourself then you have a chance of explaining it to others, if you don’t try then everyone loses.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 26, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its a nice idea...but in reality...
Would you make a parent that had a child abused try and understand the Pedo that did it?
The protesters are supporting a murderer and a rapist!!!!!!!!!!!! I dont give a crap what their “beef” may be about other than the colour of his skin? yet they are making him out to be some kind of hero….!! In which case, if your black it’s ok to get away with such things as long as you kill a police officer??
Bullcrap!
They have ZERO justification to protest the killing of that scumbag…. not one.
Continue to have the weekly protests over Oscar Grant and issues that the community has with the Police….but to hold that EVIL (and I am happy to call that little scumbag evil) sod up and have his pictures held up as if he is some kind of martyr….is sick beyond comprehension.
So I completely disagree that we have anything to understand about their protests with regard to Mixon being killed.
Yes there are issues outside of this that possibly need better Police/Community liaison, but maybe just MAYBE the minority of the communities very actions will in fact turn more Police Officers against them.
There’s a storm coming on this…..and there will be fires burning again in Oakland, unless SOMEONE like the Mayor publicy disowns these protesters as NOT representative of the community at large.
Oh and if someone thinks maybe I’m talking out of my backside, I served In Northern Ireland and for 30 years of violence, terrorism, shootings and bombings of innocents, we had “apologists and liberal thinkers” stating the many reasons why we (citizens of the UK) should be trying to “understand” the terrorists…..all the while we had our families and loved ones blown to pieces.
Seeing these protests in Oakland brings back very nasty memories of seeing Republicans smiling and cheering at the deaths of British soldiers…… anyone who gets any form of enjoyment from seeing another person dead, will get their just deserves in the end.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The protesters are supporting a murderer and a rapist!!!!!!!!!!!! I dont give a crap what their "beef" may be about other than the colour of his skin?
Then they need to protest more. You still don’t get it so other don’t either. If everything was alright in Oakland there wouldn’t be these protests. I don’t live there so I’m no expert on their situation but I can see that something is not right.
People don’t celebrate the death of anyone unless they fell that person had been treating them wrong. If the people there feel like a murderer and rapist is less a danger to them than the police then any reasonable person could see the police need to change their conduct.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 27, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ooh I dunno if I'd go that far Skep
I think I fall in between you guys on this issue, though probably closer to Brit. I don’t think there aren’t police/community issues that need to be worked out in Oakland (actually I’m not sure if Brit is saying that either) and certainly the police need to assume responsibility for part of that. But just because a group of people feel that the police are a greater danger to them than a murderer/rapist and are celebrating murder, it doesn’t mean they are anywhere near right. Again using the KKK example, does the fact that those people believe minorities are a great threat to them mean that minorities need to change their conduct?
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 27, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Sam
exactly and you assume correctly, I wasnt that that at all. I fully understand there are issues between Police and the community, however using this man Mixon as the icon for the protest against the Police is just disgusting.
Wait a week and hold protests about how the Police work in community, fair enough, it’s a free country, but to celebrate a rapist and a killer is something I simply canot get my head around no matter what peoples feelings toward the police may be.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction "I wasn't saying that at all"
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"anyone who gets any form of enjoyment from seeing another person dead, will get their just deserves in the end"
Saddam’s dead face splayed across TIME/Newsweek 2 years ago comes to mind. “We got him”, indeed.
I don’t think any of us agree with the protesters, or even understand them. I just believe they have a right to protest within legal limits without the threat of you “biatch slapping some manners into some folk”. Civil society needs free speech, not more violence.
by antihero on Mar 27, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yes.... this is true....
It’s the content of the protest that some MUST take accountability for. I simply dont believe anyone can “celebrate” the death of anyone or make an idol of a murderer and a rapist… Civil liberty to protest, but within reason…? if thats possible.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 28, 2009 1:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s very complicated to draw lines on “reason” in these kinds of situations. One man’s reason is another man’s madness, right? Free speech certainly needs bounds, but at what point does it simply become a mockery of free speech?
The UN’s recent declaration of religious defamation as a violation of human rights comes to mind. Certainly there are people who think badmouthers of Allah should be punished by international law, but I personally think it’s absurd. My roommate makes fun of me for wearing scarves in the summertime, and it definitely hurts. But do we need a UN resolution for this?
by antihero on Mar 28, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the O.P.D. should seek to hire more officers from within the community
would be a terrific step in the right direction toward building good will between the PO & city
by hardcore on Mar 26, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
being a police officer is pretty important job in our society (like either the first or second most important) Shouldnt they focus primarily on hiring the most qualified? If you can hire from within the community, great, but it shouldn’t be anywhere near a priority.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 26, 2009 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shouldnt they focus primarily on hiring the most qualified? If you can hire from within the community, great, but it shouldn’t be anywhere near a priority.
I assure you Sammy there are decent folks in Oakland just as there are in any other city in the area. We just gotta find and train them. It’s worth the extra effort to relieve any appearance of an occupied country for those folks.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 27, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying there aren’t decent folks in Oakland, sorry if that was the impression I gave….I just meant to say the focus shouldn’t be on the OPD’s hiring process as much as it should be the promotion of the idea of cops as the good guys within the Oakland community. I assume the OPD is currently hiring the most qualified candidates, if we want them to hire more locals we should focus on getting more locals to want to be police officers. Of course if they want to make hiring locals a priority they likely need to create some sort of training program for locals that levels the playing field for them with outside candidates.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 27, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course if they want to make hiring locals a priority they likely need to create some sort of training program for locals that levels the playing field for them with outside candidates.
I live down in santa cruz so I don’t know a lot about Oakland’s hiring procedures but I imagine they are working on getting more locals in the force and these things just take time? Of course if they hire them then they move out of town that defeats the purpose, so a requirement that officers live within the city makes sense as far as creating harmony within the neighborhoods.
I’ve got a police officer living three houses down from me and I love it. Everyone on the block knows he’s there and feels better having him here, and if anyone ever tried to give him shit we’ds all be over there backing him up in an instant.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 27, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
" I’ve got a police officer living three houses down from me and I love it. Everyone on the block knows he’s there and feels better having him here, and if anyone ever tried to give him shit we’ds all be over there backing him up in an instant."
by bucknall20 on Mar 27, 2009 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree, its a wonderful idea in theory and I think it applies very well to towns and smaller and less violent cities. But as soon as a cop is followed home and killed there, don’t you have to change your policy? I’m not saying its not a worthwhile goal, but there are some serious issues to work out too.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 27, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
question
how come i post the word @$$ and get warned and comment deleted. And some guy posts ‘the only good cop is a dead one’ of all times NOW and is still allowed to post
by tafkasam on Mar 26, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would hope...
that it was an innocent mistake. This site uses a “flag” system so it may be that your comment had been flagged and the offensive comment above had not been (it has now BTW). If anyone removed your comment and intentionally left that one I’d be surprised. Pretty lame if that is in fact what happened.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Mar 26, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i mean i wouldnt be surpised if comments get missed
there are a million a day. But that one stirred alot of response and is really untactful.
by tafkasam on Mar 26, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw i do want to say RIP officers
what a tradgedy. It puts perspective on how silly and heated we get on meaningless things like if monta is a pg. My prayers go out to there families
by tafkasam on Mar 26, 2009 12:30 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS
of people have sent their wishes and thousands of Police Officers from around the country are heading to Oakland today.
Maybe its the 200 or so “Protesters for Mixon” who should try to “understand” why so many people throught the country are so disgusted with their behaviour…
RIP fellas…. the minority will never overthrow the democracy…..
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 2:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just to qualify lest I be accused of racism again....
“Minority” as in disgustng lunatics, not the African American community at large, who I simply consider part of the “majority” and therefore the democacy.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that would have to be my main problem with the case, the coverage. I’ll state again just to make it very clear that it was a terrible tragedy, and RIP to the 4 police officers involved.
But there are police officers ACROSS THE COUNTRY heading over here. Which, unless you were exaggerating, since I am going off of your comments here, means that this became a national story.
Yet the Oscar Grant story, which was about the polar opposite of this, got barely any coverage outside of the Bay Area, any national notoriety it got was generated by the people involved and not the media.
Is that a message that there are some lives we value over others? I don’t know. Once again, since the last time I commented someone told me I had no respect, if it was up to me we would be honoring both cases equally. But it does not seem like that is happening.
It might feel like the case got national coverage, but that’s because living in the Bay it was a big story.
by belilaugh on Mar 27, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet the Oscar Grant story, which was about the polar opposite of this, got barely any coverage outside of the Bay Area, any national notoriety it got was generated by the people involved and not the media
I don’t think thats true… personally I saw the Grant story on the national news A LOT more than I’ve seen this more recent story. I actually can’t remember seeing this story on CNN, Fox, or MSNBC’s national stories more than once and the Grant story was on all 3 for weeks.
Is that a message that there are some lives we value over others?
Keep in mind that there were 4 lives involved in this story. Also we still don’t know the intent of the
BART officer involved in the Grant shooting. But if you were implying that we sometimes honor those who are killed tragically while upholding their pledges to protect the rest of us more than we do the average citizen? You might be right, but I don’t think there is much of a problem with that.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 27, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if you were implying that we sometimes honor those who are killed tragically while upholding their pledges to protect the rest of us more than we do the average citizen? You might be right, but I don’t think there is much of a problem with that.
If Oscar Grant had a gun and knew how to use it he might be alive today? Ironic isn’t it
In a free society it’s more tragic for a cop to kill an innocent citizen than for a cop to be killed by a criminal cause the cop knows the dangers of the job and is prepared for them but an innocent civilian should always be able to expect that the cops are not murderers, if that happens we lose trust in the system and have a good reason to rebel. How many stable countries live in fear of their police?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 27, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but an innocent civilian should always be able to expect that the cops are not murderers
Again its premature to call the Oscar Grant situation murder.
in a free society it’s more tragic for a cop to kill an innocent citizen than for a cop to be killed by a criminal
I don’t know if either is more tragic than the other, I was simply commenting on why we may honor the fallen police a bit more in the news.
How many stable countries live in fear of their police?
Do you really think any significant portion of this country’s population has reason to live in fear of the police? I don’t deny that some unfair treatment towards minorities exists in some areas, but “living in fear” is being a bit dramatic. Cases where people are truly living in fear of the police in the U.S. are about as rare and isolated as they are anywhere unless its a result of some misperception they have of the police.
Thing A
by sam23 on Mar 27, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Case of Oscar Grant......
In my personal opinion can and WILL be explained as an acti of gross negligence and stupidity…. WHY?
I have seen the exact same reaction on a face of another guy from my unit when we were at the range one day. The range officer asked him to suddenly sho him his weapon and as he picked it up (Browning 9mm Highpower) he discharged the round, fortunately across range that hit no one….all for the simple switch called a “safety catch”.
The exact same look went across his face as that which I saw on the face of Officer Mehserle in the video clips shown. To me (and again this is my personal view) it look like he stupidly went to threaten Oscar Grant as we obviously cannot hear what Grant is saying, and Mehserle pulls his weapon. I am 99% certain he did not have his safety engaged and as h pulled the gun his trigger finger instinctivey went inside the guard and the gun went off.
The difference in the cases is as Sam put it, a clear murder of 4 Police Officers without provocation and a yet to be decided unlawful killing, which again IMPO was not intended but an act of gross negligence.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both tragic but both completely different ....
But if anyone was stupid enough to go onto the streets of Oakland protesting that Oscar might of gotten what he deserved, then I doubt that person/s would leave the city alive.
The point made earlier is “some” people have double standards that simply canot be understood by many.
Once again RIP Officers Dunakin, Hege, Sakai and Romans.
Maybe….just maybe some good will come out of this. I also hope teh Warriors will be making a mark of respect before the next home game.
I also noted that truly offensive comment still exits on this thread….. shame on you mods, leaving that comment in place is almost as disgusting as Obians comment.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 27, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my personal opinion can and WILL be explained as an acti of gross negligence and stupidity….
Hi Brit, Yeah I think that has to be the answer too cause I just can’t imagine why a transit cop would want to kill a kid laying on the ground.
What makes it so bad is that he didn’t come right out and explain it the first day. If I accidentally killed that kid I’d be over at his moms house begging forgiveness right away, I’d also want to go to the funeral and I’d certainly not let the city stonewall me into keeping quiet. This kind of behavior is one reason the people don’t trust the police, you gotta give respect to get in return.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Mar 27, 2009 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed....
I dont know what advice he was given….but I must admit, as painful as it would be and knowing you would be likely in some personal danger, I would probably have also done as you proposed.
Tragic events happen but the reaction/actions thereafter often shape events post tragic event. I was staggered that he was obviously “gagged” very quickly and that just made the whole situation a million times worse.
It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!
by BritWarriorGSW on Mar 28, 2009 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
20,000
people in the Oracle.
They’re going to McAfee now.
Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Mar 27, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn this sad.
Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Mar 27, 2009 11:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Eulogies are all done
Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Mar 27, 2009 1:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Funeral is almost done.
Alot of people breaking down now =[
Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Mar 27, 2009 2:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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