For the Warriors, It Was a Fitting Farewell to a Season Worth Forgetting [FanHouse]
Stephen Jackson, Monta Ellis, and Corey Maggette should get no love for this. Very unprofessional indeed. Nellie showed up (contradicting the predictions of many of his haters) and the fans showed up, watched on TV, and brought the usual hype online to GSoM.
In the name of Mookie Blaylock, "Where the hell were those guys?"
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Yea, messed up imo especially on Fan appreciation night
Especially on Monta’s part. The fans love him (except me), just got a promise he won’t be voided, and obviously wasn’t there. Nor was the capt, nor the guy who got the biggest contract for a 6th man.
Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or John Wall. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
Trust me
I don’t love Monta. Other than if the Lakers can be taken out, it would be the happiest moment in the NBA this year for me if he were officially to not be on the team. Actually… Maybe I’d tie them both for the best.
Second time Monta flaked in a week...
Last week, he was scheduled to do a private signing at the Sports Gallery of Walnut Creek with Maggette. I think it was limited to 150 people. People paid but where called the night before the actual signing saying “Monta won’t be coming anymore.” Till this day we’re awaiting him to “possibly reschedule” another date. I gave up and requested a refund though.
Monta's exactly why the reason I didn't want to attend that
I would have been happy to meet Corey. If I knew that, I probably would have gone.
Maggette was real nice...
Unlike Monta, he didn’t have any rules set. He took pictures with us and everyone he signed for. Monta on the other hand requests that only pictures of him signing be taken. No direct photos or posing.
I think that's one of the nice things about Maggette
He seems like a cool person. He didn’t complain when Nellie asked him to come off the bench. He was true to his word that he would do whatever the coach wanted him to do.
by IQofaWarrior on Apr 16, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Azubuike's a snob too
We went to one of his autograph signings last year. It was basically the same rules for him.
there has to be a reason why they ahve those kind of rules. Azubuike doesn't look like
a snob at all.
Kelenna is mine...;>
by girltothemax on Apr 16, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Grasshopper...
Consider the source.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
But it’s not like I’m trying to be his friend, so it’s all good. My girlfriend even stuck her hand out to shake his hand, and he shook it, and the d ickhead Warriors security still pushed my girlfriend’s hand away.
Azubuike was nice to us
He gave my wife a hug and gave me a manly handshake lol
Beyond Golden State of Design... and than some!
http://www.tonypsd.blogspot.com/
He gave my wife a hug and gave me a manly handshake lol
I bet you wish you’d got a hug too? :>)
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 17, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
But you're also famous for a fan
I don’t mean any offense by it at all. I just don’t know how else to word it. I’m just saying I’m sure he’s a whole lot cooler to you guys.
wow really?
Man I wish I could get a hug from Azu. =( Only the lucky ones…
Kelenna is mine...;>
by girltothemax on Apr 17, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Man I wish I could get a hug from Azu.
I got the same middle name as Kellena if that would do?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 18, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks atma for the Mookie Blaylock thing!
He was my all time favorite player. I have this article in my IE favorites links!
F**K REFS
sjax
I can understand sjax, since his surgery was hurting him (report of needing help to get up from sitting, etc). The others – inexcusable.
I agree
It does seem understandable for Jack if that’s the case. The others not so much.
Props to JC. I really wish Nellie and crew weren’t trying to run him out of town. He’s a cool cat.
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 16, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Crawford...
Props to JC. I really wish Nellie and crew weren’t trying to run him out of town. He’s a cool cat.
Honestly, I just wish he was a better player. He seems like a really cool guy, he is fun to watch play and he seems to have a really good attitude. If he would put some effort into defense, use his quickness and sick handle to actually get to the basket or the foul line more often, and gather more than the occasional accidental rebound he could be an important part of the team.
The guy is all sizzle and no steak. What is the use of having such nice handles if you don’t use them to create high percentage shots? I don’t know how many times I’ve seen him get a guy on his heels with a nasty cross just to take a step-back 22 footer instead of blowing by him.
I do feel bad about the way he has been treated to a degree, but this isn’t about a personal vendetta it’s about the fact that he is actually a worse player than Marco Belinelli (which is saying something) and he is making a ton of money. Outside of his contract and his good attitude there isn’t much reason he should get minutes next year.
Thing 2
Agreed that JC should be using those sick handles to take better shots and actually try on D. He has the talent to be a much better player than he is.
But he’s a far superior player to Belinelli. Per minute extrapolations are meaningless until a guy proves he can do it for the course of an entire season or for more than 5-10 games. Belinelli doesn’t fit the bill. He’s arguably the most expendable player on this roster- and there’s a lot of those on this silly (mostly Mullin created) roster.
This is the NBA. It’s one thing to put up okay numbers for a few games (Belinelli this season), but another to put up those numbers night in and night out for several years (Jamal Crawford).
JC’s a nice 6th man. Belinelli’s a “nice” 12th man (if there is such a thing) if not D-League player.
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 16, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
to defend marco
He didn’t get much chance, since once he finally made the rotation, he got injured.
But yeah, marco might be the most expendable since he hasn’t had much chance to show what he can do. Really bad he couldn’t play the last 10 or so games with the youth squad to really see if he has it in him
JC's just not that good
JC hurts the team. When Marco plays he hurts them less. Putting up #‘s over an extended amount of time has nothing to do with it. Crawford is a 40% shooter who basically does nothing for your team except shoot. Crawford has put up consistently bad numbers over the course of his career and that won’t be changing.
My point wasn’t to say Marco is good. He’s not. At this point he could be a decent role player but that’s just about it. Marco is about equal to Crawford offensively, and he is a much better defender (despite still not being all that great). Crawford get’s way more credit than he deserves as a player because he is fun and exciting.
Calling him “far superior” to Belinelli fits in just fine with the commonly held opinions among most casual NBA fans but it doesn’t really hold up to the slightest scrutiny. You’d have a hard time making a good case that he is a marginally better player than Marco at this point if you ignored your personal feelings about each player and just looked at what they achieved when they are on the court.
Thing 2
It has nothing to do with personal feelings. It has yet to be proven that Marco can put up JC’s (agreed) sub-par numbers for a starting guard across more than just a handful of games, a season, or even multiple seasons. Crawford’s a proven decent- backup commodity in this league. The burden of proof is on Belinelli here.
To say that Belinelli is even in JC’s league does not taken into consideration sample size. Limited sample size works if the properties are independent, but that’s not the case here at all. The NBA is the big leagues. People figure out your strengths, weaknesses, on you after about 10-20 games. Guys like Ike Diogu or Andris Biedrins in the post will look good for a handful games one on one, but once there’s a clear scouting report (Ike is SLOW and Biedrins has ZERO right) there’s no guarantee that performance will continue.
That’s not opinion. That’s a fact.
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 16, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
It has nothing to do with personal feelings. It has yet to be proven that Marco can put up JC’s (agreed) sub-par numbers for a starting guard across more than just a handful of games, a season, or even multiple seasons. Crawford’s a proven decent- backup commodity in this league. The burden of proof is on Belinelli here.
Are you trying to tell me that without multiple seasons worth of data you don’t consider yourself (or anyone) qualified to make a reasonable judgment about the value of a player? After watching Derrick Rose play for a month couldn’t you tell me that he was a better player than Crawford despite not having proven it over the course of multiple seasons?
To say that Belinelli is even in JC’s league does not taken into consideration sample size. Limited sample size works if the properties are independent, but that’s not the case here at all. The NBA is the big leagues. People figure out your strengths, weaknesses, on you after about 10-20 games. Guys like Ike Diogu or Andris Biedrins in the post will look good for a handful games one on one, but once there’s a clear scouting report (Ike is SLOW and Biedrins has ZERO right) there’s no guarantee that performance will continue.
I agree with you about sample size in general, but what I don’t understand is what exactly you’d consider a reasonable sample size?
Also, can you provide we with one example of a player who after having played 1100+ minutes in the NBA had a statistically significant decrease in production due to the league “figuring him out”. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened, but for how much the idea of a guy being “figured out” is thrown around I haven’t seen much evidence of it. It is more common to see young players improve as they play more than it is to see a guys production decrease.
BTW if you haven’t read up on some of the more interesting stuff out there on the subject of the validity of per minute stats check this out.
Thing 2
Are you trying to tell me that without multiple seasons worth of data you don’t consider yourself (or anyone) qualified to make a reasonable judgment about the value of a player?
I think you’re taking it to the extreme. I’m talking (mostly) about Jamal Crawford vs. Marco Belinelli here.
After watching Derrick Rose play for a month couldn’t you tell me that he was a better player than Crawford despite not having proven it over the course of multiple seasons?
I think it’s reasonable to project that Rose will be a better NBA player than JC based on his first month of play. The difference is Rose has college stats indicating he’d be a pretty good NBA player and scouting reports to back it up.
As Hollinger pointed out when the Warriors drafted Belinelli back in the summer of 2007 Belinelli didn’t have Euro stats that would indicate he was a legit NBA player. Belinelli also had an absolutely atrocious first season- one in which one of the top hoops talent evaluators of all time (that being Don Nelson) didn’t even think it was worth giving him minutes. Hollinger:
2007-08 season: The "Did They Really Say That?" award for 2007 goes to the Warriors brass who speculated Belinelli might beat out Monta Ellis for a starting job. Puh-leeze — this guy might not be able to start in the D-League.
Belinelli did exactly what his Euroleague translations predicted: he had a decent scoring rate with a bad shooting percentage, a low rate of assists, and truly horrid rebounding. Though he’s 6-6, Belinelli grabbed only 3.1 percent of missed shots when he played; had he met the 500-minute cutoff that would have been the worst rebound rate in basketball (for comparison Earl Boykins, who is 13 inches shorter and in his 30s, had a rebound rate of 3.4).
The rebound rate is a fairly strong indicator that Belinelli simply isn’t athletic enough to compete at this level; other red flags screaming out this information are that he didn’t block a shot all season, and that he earned only nine free throws in 242 minutes.
At a bare minimum, he needs to shoot a whole lot better. He came in advertised as a shooter but hit only 38.7 percent from the floor. The one positive was his 39.0 percent mark on 3-pointers, and if he wants to survive in the league he should specialize more in this shot and shoot fewer long 2s off the dribble.
Keeping those 2 strikes in mind sprinkling in a few good games with mostly mediocre and sub-par performances (check the game log) doesn’t do much for me in trying to extrapolate his stats and say he’s at the level of an established vet like JC.
Let’s examine Hollinger’s PER (basically a good weighted, but not perfect way of comparing stats) for Crawford and Belinelli this season.
- Jamal Crawford 2008-2009: 15.15
- Marco Belinelli 2008-2009: 8.25
Seriously though, what’s wrong with us? Only true Warrior junkies care about comparing 2 players on such a sucky team the day after the season ends.
And yes- TZ’s work is excellent.
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 16, 2009 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Seriously though, what’s wrong with us?
Haha, I don’t know, but we are Warriors fans and it’s officially the offseason. Sooooo let the countless meaningless debates begin!!!
Couple things:
Belinelli has now been in the NBA for two seasons. No reason to look back at Euroleague and pre draft scouting reports. There is plenty of actual NBA data. Also, you have to admit that he made a huge jump from his first season to his second season right? Here are a couple things to consider from Hollinger’s season wrap up that you quoted.
Though he’s 6-6, Belinelli grabbed only 3.1 percent of missed shots when he played; had he met the 500-minute cutoff that would have been the worst rebound rate in basketball
Yeah, he was really a horrible rebounder last year. This year Marco improved from 3.1% to 4.4%. In case you were wondering Crawford the “established veteran” had a TRB% of 4.2%. Worse than Belinelli.
At a bare minimum, he needs to shoot a whole lot better. He came in advertised as a shooter but hit only 38.7 percent from the floor. The one positive was his 39.0 percent mark on 3-pointers, and if he wants to survive in the league he should specialize more in this shot and shoot fewer long 2s off the dribble.
Yeah he was a horrible shooter last year. This year he improved from 38.7% to 44.2% from the field and 39.7% from three. Crawford the “established veteran” shot 40.6%fg and 33.8% 3pt as a Warrior. Worse than Belinelli.
And incase you didn’t know the specific limitations of PER, Crawford is the poster child for what is wrong with PER. He is a high volume low efficiency scorer who plays no defense. Those are the biggest holes in PER as a metric and Jamal takes full advantage of them to score well despite being significantly poorer than his rating.
You can make a case for Crawford being a bit better than Belinelli, but it doesn’t have anything to do with his playing time, or his veteran status. If you’d looked at the stats carefully you would have pointed out that Crawford gets to the line more and creates for others better than Marco (though Marco has made significant strides in this department too). That is basically all that he does better than Marco.
Marco has better shot selection.
Marco shoots better from three.
Marco is a better rebounder.
Marco is a better defender.
Marco is still improving.
Neither is a good NBA player, so who cares really…
When does summer league start?
Thing 2
Marco has better shot selection.
How so? His shot selection is horrendous. JC’s isn’t great either though. Play Marco more minutes and his warts will show even more and his FG% will dip.
Marco shoots better from three.
I’m not buying it till he does it across a whole season in big minutes.
Marco is a better rebounder.
At the end of the day grabbed 0.4 rpg and 1.7 rpg during his first 2 seasons. Meaningless distinction.
Marco is a better defender.
They’re both terrible defenders, but I don’t think Marco is significantly better.
Marco is still improving.
I’d send him down the D-League or cut him if I could. His upside isn’t worth wasting minutes to find out in my book.
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 16, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
best way to settle this
watch them both put up zeroes across the board in zero total minutes next year. that way we can call it a draw and the team will be better for it.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
I am always inpressed
how you never let the facts get in the way of your opinion.
by dungeness crabdribble on Apr 16, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm glad you're inpressed...
I don’t have some pre-conceived opinion about Marco or Crawford. I’m just calling it like I see it. Last year when Marco played much worse I said here that I didn’t think he was good enough to stick around in the league. This year when he improved his play I said that I was wrong and that he might find a place in the league.
I’ve always said that I enjoy watching Crawford play and I like him. I have also said that he’s not actually good for this team. I wish the guy well, but my point is that he really doesn’t deserve to play over Monta, Jackson, Morrow and Marco. We only need so many SG’s and I can understand leaving him out of your plans when you have so many veterans and young players that actually play better on both ends of the court.
Thing 2
"one guy who was on the bench was the injured Jamal Crawford, the class-act of a player whom the Warriors apparently don't want back."
This is classic Steinmetz/Kawakami bulls**t. Demonize anyone and everyone associated with the Warriors (front office, players, Nellie especially). No need to bother mentioning that Crawford is BAD FOR THE TEAM. Or that, in giving him lots of advance notice about their plans, they actually showed Crawford a great deal of respect. Steinmetz probably has that whiner Mike Dunleavy in his Fave Five so they can comiserate about how Nellie is a “confidence assassin.” Sportswriters suck. Oh yea, Bruce Jenkins too.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
+1
I feel bad for Jamal. He’s one of the nicest guys in the NBA; real classy too.
Azubuike? More like Azucutie!
by goldenstatelove on Apr 16, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
BTW ATMA
I really wanted to talk to you about something i wanted to do. could you please please e mail me at fabricio_tatiana@yahoo.com.br or faetatigsw@hotmail.com?
I´ll be waiting for your return ASAP right!
Thanks!!! =)
F**K REFS
No problem
Just drop us a line at goldenstwarriors@gmail.com to speed things up.
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 16, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Reading this...
Makes me sad.
Tips 40 for what could have (and should have) been…
"Hold it down for the bay rep'n Oakland" --Keak Da Sneak
I think this really shows the character of Crawford
and doubly so for the other 3.
now if he could just learn when stop shooting...
but he could go for 50!!!!!!
the stop calling him "beans" movement
by pervisNeverNervous on Apr 16, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I sooo agree
Crawford never said anything bad to anyone who has been wanting to get rid of him especially those games where he was forced to sit down and not dress up. He still went to show the team and the fans that he’s still a part of the team. And I felt really bad for him then…because I knew it was wrong to treat a player or teammate like that.
I really wish Crawford the best next season.
Kelenna is mine...;>
by girltothemax on Apr 16, 2009 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Me too
I already consider Durant my favorite player in the whole league. After this season, Crawford is considered my second favorite, Warrior or not. I hate seeing peeps get treated wrong, especially when their attitude is 2nd to none.
Adonal would have been there!
See?! See?!
Oh well. In any case, that’s just a horrible move by those guys. The worst part is that I’m 90% sure all of them will be back next season. Jackson gained a lot of respect in my eyes for what he’s done the past two seasons, but what he did he makes me kinda think on going back on my opinion of him. When times are good, he’s there, and he’s doing things. But when times are bad, it seems like he not the same guy. But, anything I say is just guesswork, as I don’t know the guy.
As for Maggette and Ellis, I’m not surprised. Monta isn’t the most intelligent guy in the world, and while he can play a hell of a basketball game, I don’t think he cares much about a losing team. Maggette just wants whatever provides him with the most money and wins. Just in my opinion and guesswork, again, I don’t know these guys personally.
Reguardless, I love Azubuike, Turiaf, Biedrins, and even the big money guys. If they can get it together next season, all will be fine again and I’ll be a happy man.
But, when times are tough, people true nature is seen….and here is where it becomes most evident.
Tony.psd = Da Man
http://www.blueblitz.net
Check Out My New Blog! (Don't Worry, The Warriors are Still #1)
That's pretty messed up
that Jack, Monta, and Maggette didn’t show up. Unless they have a damn good explanation, I’m ready to throw them at the bottom of my root-for list, especially with the good play of the young guys over the final few games.
what do you expect?
these guys didn’t show up most of the season… sorry, crying and moaning about the disrespect to fans is ridiculous. things that rate exponentially higher on the “Disrespecting Fans Scale”
1. 29 wins
2. season ticket prices (see #1)
3. the past 15 years (see # 1 to the fifteenth power)
4. W’s “defense”
…
29. sjax, monta, maggs are no-shows for (lol) fan appreciation night where the W’s dress 7 healthy and lose by how many?
30. no more Thunder
…
whaaaaaaa
the stop calling him "beans" movement
by pervisNeverNervous on Apr 16, 2009 1:51 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Haha
For some reason, I actually agree. But I guess part of that is I’m not a season ticket holder, never have been, and have only really experienced one Warriors playoff season. (Run TMC happened when I was a youngin’.) My hopes aren’t as high every year. But an obvious slap in the face is still a slap in the face. When the night is labeled “Fan Appreciation,” get your ass in line and sign the damn autographs. No questions, no complaints.
Read me: http://www.addisports.com
Follow me: http://twitter.com/addisports
A perfect microcosm
of the way the season has gone. Terrible move
In other news...
I was able to get my hands on the Stephen Jackson bobblehead that they gave to those who bought the mini-plan earlier in the season. It is quite possibly the most realistic bobblehead ever since it looks exactly like Jax (minus 6’8") and referees automatically gave it a T just by looking at Jax’s mug.
I’m now waiting for a Jackson signing event so I can get it autographed, I also like the other 3 they have out but Ellis’s bobbleheads were going for $100+!
Mo'ped Money, Mo'ped Problems
"Where the hell were those guys?"
Yeah, Why? Seeing the improvement of the new kids I think we could do without these three next year? Their contracts might make it hard to get value for them though.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 16, 2009 2:49 PM PDT reply actions
Mookie, haha
“Cowens eventually stripped Blaylock of his captaincy in 2001 after he blew off a practice because it conflicted with a scheduled tee time in golf”
Haha
I remember that semi-drama back in 2001. Those were the golden years of suck.
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 16, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
don't worry
We’re all witnesses to the next 14 golden years of suck too
"We Deserve"
Let's Throw the Rowell's Under the Bus As Well
Last home game of the season Ronny wins a well deserved Dub Player of the Year award provided through the Rowell’s. Do you think Rowell or hs wife would have the decency to show up to present their own award to Ronny? Of course if I were RR, I wouldn’t want to step foot in the Oracle with 19,000 fed up fans, most of whom really hate your guts.
CWebb is undoubtedly the answer but I forgot the question.
i may be very very wrong
but I think you’re referring to the Angela & Christopher Cohan Community Assist Award.
Hey ATMA
Done… check your email and you´ll see my email ok!
F**K REFS
by faetati on Apr 16, 2009 8:17 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
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