Final Grade of the 08 Off-Season (Part 3 of 3)
by FLAxwless on Apr 18, 2009 2:24 AM PDT
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PrintThe season has ended, so now it's time to review the moves the Warriors made prior to this season and give them a final grade. It was a hard season Warrior fans, so hopefully we can take some of the few positives as we head into the '09 Off-Season.
Below is the link to the mid-season review for those who need a refreshed of the original grades and what was said at the mid-term.
Mid-Season Review of Off-Season Moves
Here she blows...
She here she blows:
1) Not re-signing Baron Davis
I don't know about you, but during our playoff push last year I began to wish Nelson didn't give BD so much leeway. With each 3 pointer he chucked, instead of taking it to the rack and his matador defense trying to go for pokes... I began to hate him. The one sequence that sticks in my head is against the Nuggets in a do or die game for the final playoff spot... sometime in the late 3rd/early 4th the Warriors down by 4 points or so had 3 defensive stops in a row... sadly the defense went for nothing as BD launched 3 pointers instead of working for a better shot. After that time I knew that we got the best out of BD the year before... the unstoppable bowling ball during the last month of the season and in the playoffs.
Next season our win total maybe lower, but that extra year of experience without BD will do wonders for Ellis, Biedrins, and the rest of the young guys as they learn to win in the NBA and gain experience a steh go-to guys... this could lead to more wins in the future.
GRADE: B .. Next season we will suffer, but it will pay off in the future.
Mid-Season Grade: B
Hard to make this an "A" given how poorly the Warriors are doing but I believe that is more a function of injuries and losing Monta than losing BD. However, one just has to look at what BD is doing in Clipperland to see that once BD gets his money he reverts back to the injury prone and still horribly shooting BD. He's missed the past two weeks with a bruised assbone for christ's sakes!!! Again, the last two seasons in a Warrior uniform were the best we were going to ever get from BD and that amounted to a 2nd round playoff berth and followed by a 48 win team that missed the playoffs. Like Kenny Rogers sings, "You gotta know when to hold, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run." This is one of the few decisions that Rowell has gotten right.
Final Grade: B+
BD's play and attitude in Clipperland make me comfortable in changing this from a B to an B+. He's proven Rowell and critics alike at being a risky player to drop a long term contract on. However, one can only wonder how different this season would have played out for BD and the Warriors had he stayed. It's clear the Warriors missed BD's leadership and confidence, but his true impact cannot be measured because the Warriors were decimated by injuries. However, the playing time the younger players received since BD was out is a plus.
2) Offering Brand and GA Max contracts
These were genius moves by Mullin. Had he landed either player the Warriors would've been a lock for playoffs IMO.. with that said and as much as it hurts to say this as Gilbert Arenas is my favorite player... Brand would've been a much better fit for the Warriors. I'd much rather pay 100 million for a stud big man who can do it all than perimeter oriented scorer (as clutch as GA is).
GRADE: Brand (A) - Well worth the shot and would actually IMPROVE the team. Arenas (C) - The Warriors would be no better than a 48 win team and potentially worse with GA at point over BD. Plus he plays the same position as Ellis and you have yourself a team that has tied up it's capspace for status quo. You don't committ 100 million to 1 player for status quo.
Average: B .. Well worth the shot.
Mid-Season Grade: Brand (A) - Despite his injury and his effect on the 76ers I still think he would have made this team a playoff team. He's Randolph's defense and Brandan Wright's offense mixed into one with veteran status... Don Nelson would cream in his pants if he got Brand. Arenas (F) - The only reason my original grade was so high was because of my man-love for GA and you can ignore the fact that I actually thought he'd be healed. It's a blessing Polin paid GA or else we'd be stuck with an 100 million dollar blogger.
Final Grade: Brand (C) and Arenas (F)
I still think Brand would have been a worthwhile addition, but the injuries and the emergence of Randolph make this move less appealing. Arenas - Wow. Glad DC paid GA. He's still my favorite player but his knee is going to be an issue for the rest of his career.
3) Signing Corey Maggette 5yrs/50 million
Corey is a good player and a I'm glad he'll be abusing opposing teams instead of abusing us. Two things I love about Maggs is: (1) He makes FTs (2) He will not be denied to the rim. This is what the Warriors were lacking last year... someone who wouldn't settle for jumpshots and is confident in their FT shooting. Two things I hate about Maggs: (1) He is not a playmaker (2) He will not be denied to the rim. What this means is Maggette is BALL HOG CITY!! I just hope that was all due to the Clippers being depleted and him being in a contract year, but Maggs is a black hole. He can kill an entire offense for stretches since he rarely gives up the rock. If this Warrior team is to succeed they will need to share the rock.
While he has more positives than negatives.. paying Maggs 10 million a year is A LOT when the most he was looking at was mid-level exceptions.
GRADE: C ... Sign Maggs for 5 years/40-42 million and this becomes a B instead.
Mid-Season Grade: D
Pretty much can copy and paste what I said in the off-season report card. Maggs has been what I thought he would be coming in a steady scorer who is BALL HOG CITY and does little else. Why does his grade get lowered? Mostly due to the continued stellar play of Bukie, the emergence of Bellinelli and Morrow, and the trade for Crawford. If the Warriors knew back than what they know now, you can bet they would have made a play for someone else or at least low balled Maggs.
Final Grade: F
One season of Maggs is all I can take. Sure he can put up points and rebounds a little, but that's it. He just kills the entire offense when he's in the game because he dominates the ball and that mentality INFECTS everyone else. You can't beat opposing teams if you're playing 1 on 1. At least he's accepted the 6th man role, but I'd much rather have Buike (I'll get to him later) or Morrow (him too) play the role of 6th man off the bench. He's a limited player and unfortunately we're stuck with him for the next 2 or 3 years, unless we find someone crazy enough to eat the next 40 million (not holding my breath).
3) Signing Ronny Turiaf 4/17 million
This was a solid signing by Mullin providing the Warriors our own Milsap/Power. again like Maggette this was a guy who would tear us up. Glad he's with us now. He can run, block shots, play some defense, and has a solid mid-range shot. 4 million a year for a servicable big man is market value. Only negative is what does this mean for Richard Hendrix?
GRADE: B... solid player and gives us a reliable back up behind Biedrins.
Mid-Season Grade: B
Everything you thought you'd be getting and than some. Only wish is he'd stop trying to block every shot, so he can actually position himself and grab rebounds. People wonder how someone who blocks so many shots can be a poor rebounder? It's because Turiaf tries to blocks anything and everything in Oracle.
Final Grade: A
One of the great deals of the past off-season. He's the anchor of our defense, heart of the team, and a great leader. It's not often that you get all of that for $4.25 million a year. While he'll never be a All*Star or someone you'd want to be a regular starter, Turiaf's minutes on the floor are usually a positive for the team. He plays great man D, terrific help shot blocker, and on offense he has a decent jumpshot and passes well for a big. He's a very good rotation player and only a trio of talent like Bynum, Pau, and Odom could render Turiaf expendable. I bet other teams are kicking themselves for not signing Ronny.
4) Trading for Marcus Williams
I love this move a lot more than most. I liked Williams coming out of college and wanted the Warriors to draft him instead of POB. He got stuck behind Kidd and had a injury short his 2nd season in the league. However he is a pure point guard that can create for others, shoot 3s, steal the ball, and play little defense (sound familiar). Not bad for a future 1st rounder.
He'll be a back up PG to start, but I could see Nellie using Ellis and Williams together. Wouldn't be suprised if Williams eventually plays himself into the 6th man role.. leap frogging Buike as the 6th man and 1st guard off the bench.
GRADE: A... great potential at a need position for very little investment (lottery protected 1st rounders or two 2nd rounders).
Mid-Season Grade: INC
Honestly, I loved the trade and still think Williams has potential. He couldn't even get in during Triple OT after Maggs was fouled out and he was the only available guard. I was at the game and I would have bet money that Nelson would put Williams in b/c he was the only guard left but he put in Kurz!! That just goes to show how deep in the doghouse is Marcus Williams when Don Nelson elects to play a big over a small in crunch time.
Final Grade: F
The guy isn't even on our team anymore. This one move right here explains the whole mess the front office has become. We've given up most likely two 2nd rounders for nothing in return because the Coach and GM couldn't get on the same page. He did tear it up in the D League, get signed by the Spurs, but sent back down for playoffs. So we'll see where he ends up
5) Matching Azubukie 3yrs/9 million
Another good move for Mully. Buike will develop into a solid starter/6th man who plays within himself, can take it to the rack, shoot 3s, and play defense. Matching Buike also prevents him from making a division foe better (instant upgrade form their bench and potential starter there) and allows us more flexibility in the future as a potential trading chip or insurance at the SG/SF when Jackson's contract runs out and if Bellinelli never pans out. Maybe we're biased, but we all know Bukie will become a good NBA and getting a YOUNG rotation player for 3 million a year is a great move.
GRADE: A ... could be better than Maggette
Mid-Season Grade: A.
Like I said dude will be better than Maggette and costs about 7 million less! A great Mullin find and a super-duper contract.
Final Grade: A+
Buike is has become a very good NBA player and that's a credit to his work ethic and the coaching staff. While he'll never be a superstar he'd be a terrific 6th man or a 3rd/4th option in the starting line-up. I said at the beginning of the season he COULD be better than Maggette... well there is no doubts about it now. HE IS BETTER THAN MAGGETTE! He can take it strong to the rim like Maggs, but he adds a LEGIT 3 point shot, DEFENSE, and is actually willing to pass the ball. His play and cheap contract make him a valuable asset to the team as a rotation player or trade chip.
6) Re-signing Monta Ellis 6yrs/66 million
What more is there to say? Monta is our future, he is our franchise and will be a real offensive threat unlike J-Rich because he has better handles and can jump off 1 foot. Monta Ellis can consistently get himself to the rim and has great finishing ability, couple that with his mid-range game and you have yourself an elite offensive player. His defense just needs to improve and I believe Monta has the work ethic to become a better defender. At the end of last season he also showed better playmaking ability and actually feed Biedrins the ball more in Pick and Roll situations over BD. I would much rather have Ellis for the next 6yrs for 66 million over Gilbert Arenas. People may say we overpaid... but Parker signed for the same deal and Ellis right now is just as good as TP, IMO.
GRADE: A ... Ability to get to the rim, finish, and mid-range game make him a lock to continue becoming an ELITE offensive scorer.
Mid-Season Grade: "F" YOU!!!
He's the sole reason for the Warriors suckieness (I'll detail it in another post) and all because he was riding on a freakin moped. I don't think people truly realize the impact Monta makes and I expect the Warriors to play consistently above average basketball once Monta comes back.
Final Grade: F+
So he's not the sole reason for the Warrior's suckieness, but he wasted this year. The only positive is it looks like by next season he'll be able to get back to where he was. The question now is can he get better than before? If the Warriors are going to return to relevency than Monta will have to become a superstar.
7) Signing Anthony Morrow
Worth a gamble after what he did in summer league.
GRADE: C... just because his chances to make the final roster are slim.
Mid-Season Grade: A
Another Mully gem. He has a good stroke and fights hard for rebounds on both ends of the floor. Needs to work on his offensive game a bit and defense but for a minimum deal you can't find better value.
Final Grade: A+
What can you say. This guy is legit and if the Warriors want to become a serious Championship threat he should be in their plans. All championship teams, have a shooter who can stretch the floor and we've found ours. As he got more minutes he showed more to his game, taking it strong to the rack, and decent play making abilities to go along with his + rebounding for a SF/SG. He's J-Rich minus the ups, but with a better shot. He needs to be signed long-term and the Dubs would probably be wise to lock him up for 3 million per like Buike.
8) Re-signing Biedrins 6yrs/63 million
Another young player locked up for market value. After years of suffering with Dampier and Foyle dropping passes... watching Andris play has been a joy to watch. He has soft hands, great feet, and a knack for scoring underneath. On the defensive side he is a very good rebounder and changes shots... if only the refs gave him some respect instead of tagging him with BS fouls. He's still very young at 22 and we haven't even see him come close to realizing his potential until Nelson leaves or commits to playing him for 30 minutes and running a few plays for him. Before we got Harrington and Jackson.. Biedrins was developing a solid low post game. He's one of best young bigs and he already has 4 years of NBA experience and is a proven double double guy in limited minutes.
GRADE: A .... he's getting paid less than Bogut. 'Nuff said.
Mid-Season Grade: A... 14 pts/12rebs/1.6blk/56% FG in all 41 games. Andrew Bogut... 12 pts/10rebs/1blk/58% FG has missed 9 games and counting. So the Dubs win on the value scale. His FG% has dropped but he has been getting more looks so that is expected. He's been the most consistent Dub and glad to have him around for the next 6 years.
Final Grade: A
I liked the signing than and still love it. Dude is only 23 years old and he's already a double-double machine. Jason Thompson the Kings ROOKIE is 23 years old and Biedrins already has 4 years in the league. People still think that dude has upside, so why not Beans? Will he ever develop a jump shot or an actual offensive game? Probably not, but with the emergence of Anthony Randolph he won't have to fill that role. We'd just need Biedrins to keep playing solid defense and gobbling up rebounds. Anything else on offense would just be icing on the cake. He'll never be a superstar, but he can be an All*Star.
OVERALL GRADE:
Mid-Season Grade of Off-Season moves: B... The signings of everyone but Maggette have proved to be great values and solid management decisions. They dropped from a B+ to a B because of the wasted money of Maggette and the value of his contract, for being crazy enough to offer GA max money, Nelson and Williams hating each other, and a stupid moped incident.
So what can we gain from looking back? For the most part the Warriors did the right things during the off-season as far as moves go. The problems with the losing have stemmed from a Warriors injury and moves/decisions that have occured since than sending our once proud and up-coming franchise to lottery bound. With the off-season moves the Warriors have set themselves up with a nice young core of rotation players but huge deals to Maggs, SJax, and possibly Crawford are going to lead to status quo for the foreseeable future. If this teams is going to go anywehere it will have to be through the improvements of the young core and that's what makes this season so frustrating as Don Nelson isn't the right coach IMO to raise young, confident NBA players.
Final Grade: B
The Warriors off-season was either boom or bust. They hit home runs with Buike, Morrow, Turiaf, and Biedrins but busted by signing Maggs and offering Brand and Arenas huge deals. The BD deal and Ellis signings are a neutral signings as the Dubs have Ellis on contract for 5 more seasons. Yes, he threw away this past season, but the Warriors could never have planned for that. With the shrewd contracts they gave to Buike, Morrow, Turiaf, and Biedrins the Warriors have locked up NBA rotation players to below market value deals. With the play of the roster this season the Dubs have proven to be a deep team filled with quality NBA players, but because of deals given to Maggs and later Sjax, the Warriors will have to rely on their youth to improve the team.
Ways to get an "A" for the '09 Off-Season:
1) Get rid of Maggette and/or Crawford
2) Find a Superstar - Have lottery pick, Buike, Morrow, Wright, Belinelli, Maggs, and Crawford as trade chips.
3) Find a PG - Someone to challenge Monta or a vet to tutor him.
A short list and possibly 3 impossible tasks, but if the Dubs can accomplish even one of these off-season moves they'd get an instant "A" in my book. So Warrior fans it's that time of the year again where we watch everyone else play and long to be a part of that world again. It's a long off-season and sadly, we're used to it.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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A really good writeup. I'll give it a rec.
I thought Maggette became a bit less of a ball hog than early in the season and tried to pass the ball more. But unfortunately, his passing skills sucked, so they turned out to be bad passes or turnovers. There was a time during the season when I rooted for him because I thought we’d need his ability to muscle his way to the rim off the bench. But with the rise of the young kids, his importance diminishes.
And yeah, his contract sucks for us. I always felt this was nothing more than a reactionary signing after Baron dashed for Clipperland. But if we’re stuck with him, then I expect the coaching staff to hold him accountable on defense. For god’s sake, he’s more of a He-Man than Buike is. Put that muscle to good use and body bump somebody on defense!
Monta's grade should be an INC
his career in the bay is not officially over.
The King of the East shall move his kingdom to the West. 2010.
Nice job
While I disagree with some of your assessments, this is well written and fun to read. I agree that the W’s will have to develop their young players to move forward, although I believe they can move Crawford’s contact thru an opt out or trade for a PF or C. I guess we’ll see on that.
I disagree with your assessment on Maggette. I like his play, and his getting to the line helps the entire W’s team by getting them all to the line, something that usually doesn’t happen for the Warriors. He’s an average defender, but he can shoot, and gets to the rim better than Buke. He is well worth 9 mil in my opinion.
I love Andris, and agree with you that he still has upside and could be an all star. However, we don’t agree on his defense. I see Andris as a poor defender, who gets pummeled by larger post players and constantly commits weak reach in and touch fouls. He does change shots, and is a fantastic rebounder, but he needs to learn to stop slapping at the ball on defense, and he needs to gain weight so he can hold his ground on the block. I agree that the refs give him no respect, but respect is earned, and AB must learn how to defend without fouling so much.
It will be interesting to see what happens with Monta next year. I thought his attitude was poor this season, and I’m concerned that he will become a “chip on the shoulder” type of player in years to come. I was disappointed to see him come in this season covered in tats, with no apparent remorse for his misdeeds. At this point, I don’t really see him as a leader, but more of a good player. I was happy to see that he seems to have a little bit of 3 pt range now, and I think he can become a more effective passer if he has training camp to work with the team. I’m sure it was hard for Monta to step up as a leader this year when he missed 75% of the season with his injury. We’ll see if he can put this team on his back.
Andris on defense:
So this charge gets leveled at just about anyone who makes statistical arguments: Basketball is a team game. And while entirely true (it is a team game) this doesn’t render statistical analysis in any way useless. But it does mean you have to be careful about how you use it.
The same is true for the usually nebulous charges about a player’s defense.
Huh. most of that post seems to have disappeared in posting.
Short version.
Team game, and team is important in how defense is structured. Defensive rebounds important. Biedrins not good one on one defender, needs help but can anchor it if wings actually pressure the ball and force bad shots and deny easy entry pass to opponent’s 4/5. Turiaf better individual defender did not make team defense better because of 2nd chance shots since he’s an inferior rebounder, but if entry passes are happening, you need someone like him to slow down opponents’ bigs.
Turiaf will never radically improve rebounding, Biedrins will never be a hulking giant. Neither transformation happen often, if ever. Place for both on good defensive teams.
Very good work...
I only disagree with the Maggette post!
Now that everyone on the team has their roles defined, I think they will gel better and win more of those tight games assuming Monta Ellis can be the leader and look to Capt Jack for help when he is pressured.
"Where's the beef?"
monta shouldnt be an f cuz it is a long contract and
he is our franchise player an it was a bad year for him but looking to the coming years its a good signing
Turiaf & KAz were obvious “A” moves, both at the time and in retrospect imo. Re-signing our own RFAs were also no-brainers, and the only tip of the hat there goes to the timing – waiting to re-sign them so we had cap room to add a replacement for Baron.
The Williams signing will likely cost us a second round pick down the line rather than the first rounder everyone feared – as such it’s not the worst deal though it didn’t pay off. And that’s balanced with this year’s surprise guard Morrow (doesn’t it seem like we get one of those annually?) so they’re kind of a push. Morrow’s a great addition to the bench, and maybe – maybe he becomes more later. What he (& Marco) gives us now is the depth & flexibility to package some of the guards in a trade if the opportunity presents itself.
re Baron – the logic that because Baron had a rough year for LAC means not re-signing him was the right move is faulty. Baron was the perfect complement to Monta and Jackson, had proved he’d be productive in Nellie ball, and not re-signing him forced the club to make several adjustments – none of which have not yet proven to be effective decisions: signing Maggette, moving Ellis to PG, and extending Jackson. Had we re-signed Baron, possibly none of those decisions would have been made – and we most likely would not have felt compelled to take Crawford’s contract back in order to unload Harrington. Baron’s play for LAC has nothing to do with how he might’ve played for Nelson here – he was miscast in Dunleavey’s system and his health issues may, or may not have arisen here. We’ll never know and presuming so waters down any analysis of the decision re re-signing Baron imo.
Only note about Maggette‘s signing – he was signed prior to the Jackson extension & Crawford trade, and if he was the only “bad” contract we had today we’d be in far FAR better position moving forward. Last note on Crawford: imo his trade belongs in the discussion of “off season” moves because despite the date of the trade Nelson’s mishandling of Harrington preceded the season and blew up at the conclusion of training camp. As such, there’s no way the overall grade for the offseason could be a B if the Harrington/Crawford deal is factored in.
re Brand – would have been the most ironic signing visa vie Baron’s leaving for LAC, and essentially would have meant trading our PG for the PF we’ve been missing since CWebb’s departure. No doubt GSW would have adjusted to having a legit low post presence and maybe competed for that elusive 7th-8th spot despite losing Ellis. Arenas was an absolute panic move, imo, and would not have replaced Baron’s role. But to base any off season grade on two offers that were not accepted introduces a faulty barometer to the analysis – we have not a clue as to whether another or several other offers were made that were either foolish or fantastic. As great as you and I would think Brand would be, and agree that Arenas would have been a poor decision, grading the FO on only these two in the absence of the other lesser known offers is incomplete at best.
Ways to get an “A” for the ’09 Off-Season:
1) Define who’s in charge and what the vision of the future of the team is.
Unfortunately, our immediate future is likely limited to watching and waiting for Don to get his record and sail off to Maui while we may well get a plan for the future upon his departure.
2) Make a smart trade if we are trying to get to the playoffs – or no trade at all if we decide to go into development mode. Problem is we have the wrong coach for the latter.
While we have lots of trading chips we lack big tickets to attract another team other than Monta and Andris. The fact of the matter is we aren’t making a significant move unless one of them is involved & if one (or both?!) were moved that trade HAS to pay off.
3) Find a PG – only if we trade Monta, otherwise we need to give him a year as PG to show. What we need more than another PG (Crawford, Ellis, Watson) is an indication whether “Brandolph” is the solution to the PF position. In both cases we need a coach who is willing to develop players. So the answers to #2 & #3 are inherent in #1.
by hardcore on Apr 19, 2009 3:48 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
for the last part of ur analysis
id say we need to draft a PG during the off season….and trade for a legit starting SF.
my reasoning:
-right now we cannot tell if ellis is going to be our solution to the PG problem, yet. If we draft a PG we might be able to get an eventual starter if ellis does not work out, or a possible legit backup (assuming we have to use CJ/belli as trading pieces to get a SF or get rid of crawford/maggs).
-we basically have a hole at the SF position. Buki is great and all, but i think he would be 10x more effective off the bench, since he is not a great passer…he can come in and make an individual impact off the bench. Jackson will be far more effective at the SG position, with his size and passing abilities and defensive abilities. If we can SOMEHOW trade to get a legit starting SF…we are set. (odom/artest/wallace/etc) I’d say we’d need to package any of the following players: watson/belli/wright/crawford/maggs/ and maybe morrow (altho id rather keep morrow)
-i believe at all the other positions we have excellent starters/backups (at the 2: jack/morrow, 4: randolph/turiaf/wright, 5: andris/turiaf)
-ideally we will have:
crawford opt out, use maggs/watson/belli + w/e for odom or artest, and we draft rubio
that will give us for this commin year:
PG: Ellis – Rubio
SG: Jackson – Morrow/Buki
SF: Odom/Artest – Buki
PF: Randolph – Wright
C: Andris – Turiaf
and if ellis doesnt work out at the PG position, by the following season…maybe rubio can start
either way….imo this lineup would be very strong offensively and defensively….it would be a BIG lineup….and it would have a very high quality bench
what do you think? would this be the ideal (realistic) situation?
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
ideally we will have: crawford opt out, use maggs/watson/belli + w/e for odom or artest, and we draft rubio
sure that’s a great plan – but since you asked, it’s pretty unrealistic imo – those players in any package aren’t going to get us a difference maker at either PG or PF
btw, today during the LAL – Jazz game, the announcers stated Odom wants to stay in LA and is willing to take less $$$ to do so. He’s got a great situation there: title-caliber team, family, and good coin regardless (and a classic case which supports my contention that GSW fights an uphill battle to land FA, and needs to contemplate a big trade as a result).
as for the draft, if the BPA is a PG fine but if not we have plenty of options at PG (Ellis, Crawford – who is unlikely to be gone, and CJ – who is cheap and serviceable backup). We wil have to hit the lottery’s lucky lady to have any chance at Rubio (if you believe draftexpress). I’ve very little exposure to intl players – I doubt very many GSoM contributors have really seen Rubio play much at all and are just basing their opinions on draft boards. My pref at PG is Lawson despite his critics.
as for the SF, if we don’t unload Maggette (and I’m not expecting us to unless we make a big trade and have to take back some bad contract ourselves) he’d be the likely starter or play starter’s minutes split with KAz. I want zero part of Artest, and if we landed Odom he’d likely play PF a good deal for GSW.
so, without a major trade, we’re more realistically to look more like this
PG: Ellis – Crawford – Watson
SG: Jackson – Morrow/Bellinelli
SF: Maggette – Buki – RD#1 pick
PF: Randolph – Wright
C: Andris – Turiaf – Davidson
If Ellis makes the transition effectively, if everyone stays healthy, if our PF hold their own, and if Jackson & Maggette both learn to pass a bit more effectively, then maybe – MAYBE we could squeeeek into the 8th spot next season … hence, I hold more hope out that a Bosh trade would be a bigger boon than drafting even Rubio. To return to today’s LAL-Jazz game, the Laker’s size just dominated a decent Jazz team. If we stand pat, we’re never going to challenge for a WCF.
bosh trade is less likely than rubio
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
I think Baron's performance plays a big role in the grade...
As great and as perfect BD was for the Warriors he had his faults and those were big factors in his contract negotiations.
Critics said..
- BD is injury prone. Check. Missed 17 games.
- BD is a coach killer. Check. Clashed with Dunleavy and played like a bum.
- BD only plays hard for a contract. Let’s see he gets paid and his shoots 37% FG and 30% from 3 point land. Avg 14 pts/7 ast.
So in essence all the doubts the front office and fans such as myself had were realized in LA. Sure it’s not GS but if he can’t get motivated to play in his hometown, I doubt it would be much better here in the Bay. Possibly… so that’s why it is a B+ instead of an “A”.
Was he a great fit in the Bay? Yes, but look what the Baron tenure got us… 1 playoff appearance, 2nd round exit and than a 48 win team that missed the playoffs when BD played 82 games and carried us for the season. We probably did as well as we could with BD, so as great as a fit he was in the Bay and as much as he loved it here the contract risks (long term money) and potential reward (will never be a championship team) were not worth it.
The FO got this decision right IMO.
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We probably did as well as we could with BD
good points, we agree on the above, but on the following we disagree – and it’s moot now of course, but just for the sake of argument:
injury prone – yup, so is Maggette & had we re-signed BD we’d’ve had his year instead of Maggs’, but I’d contend that if he’d been on a team more suited to him he’d might’ve come back earlier from injury, or prevented some (as in the 48 win season when he played every game by nursing small injuries judiciously). Both Maggs and Crawford can get their points, the difference with Baron is he could get his and help others get theirs, and opponents had to game plan to stop Baron. Plus, had we re-signed Baron we wouldn’t have Maggette nor likely Crawford’s contracts … which would have us in better shape than today regardless.
coach killer – yup, every coach except Nelson, thus far anyway. Nelson milked Baron for every minute he could, but he also saved some wear and tear on him by using Jackson and Monta to initiate offense at times, the last game of ‘08 notwithstanding. Baron did not play nearly as well for Montgomery – the coach matters maybe more for him than other players imo. If you want to amend your argument to include Baron might not have played as well for Nelson’s successor I’d’ve to agree.
only plays hard for contract – have to disagree, Baron competed and pushed and played hard when he had a coach who he believed in, and when he was playing for something (playoffs) in addition to his contract. Recall, he had an option so this past season could have been his “contract year” had he not opted out.
BD may have been distracted more in LA than GS – the hometown may have hurt him more than it helped him
My main point about using his 08-09 season to justify not re-signing him is that the conditions in LA were completely different than those at GSW in every category, and leads to the faulty conclusion that BD wouldn’t or couldn’t have had a good year or several good years here.
i still want to know exactly what offer he would have accepted to play here again. i forget exactly what the deal rowell supposedly nixed was. i think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 3/39, which seems a lot better than the maggette contract due to being two years shorter. we could have drafted/acquired a backcourt mate for ellis in that time frame and slowly phased baron out. i don’t love paying baron that much money and would love it less 2 years from now, but it’s better than the maggette deal and he’d be playing better for nellie than he would for dunleavy (a statement that probably applies to every single nba player). i’m up in the air about it, but if you want to use the baron or maggs model for this discussion, then i’d have to say baron. unless of course, the contract he was rumored to be offered was longer or more money, that would change things.
of course, i think that the best move we could have made on the baron/maggette front was no move at all, save the money, then not trade for crawford, and not extend jack. a little flexibility would have been nice.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
really? no way was that nixed by rowell. BD would have just turned that deal down. there’s no way that you can throw that on the table for a player like baron and assume that he’d have taken it. rowell would have been an absolute idiot to nix that. that’s just a one year guaranteed deal. no wonder baron is gone, that’s insulting.
unless you’re saying that he was offered a minimum of 3 years with a 4th and 5th year that were team options, that would be a different story. i’ve clearly attempted to drive the thoughts of baron davis negotiations from my head; it’s all hazy.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
according to BritWarriorGSW's post still on the rec'd post list above
admittedly RR had the advantage of not having to refute any specific, factual offer but he did claim to Brit that the media had misrepresented what happened:
The first main topic of conversation was Baron Davis’s departure …. RR made it very clear that what was published in the newspapers was complete fabrication. He said Baron was never offered just a 3 year contract. He was in fact offered a 5 year contract that could have paid Baron a total based on performance of $75m USD. However the organisation had concern about his ability to see out a season and so the contract was broken into 3 parts. It was a guaranteed contract for 3 years with a certain number of games having to have been played in years 2 and 3 in order to trigger year 4, likewise performance in years 3 and 4 to trigger year 5. Had Baron been prepared to commit to that deal, he would have made $75m USD. ….
and, as BritW stated, Baron went for the better deal offered by the Clips
I guess one way to decide would be to ask: if Baron agreed to the Clip contract to stay with GSW, would we have been better or worse off than we are with the Maggette and Crawford contracts (according to my reasoning, we’d’ve not had either had we re-upped BD). My guess, and this is purely a guess, is we could’ve gotten Baron for less than the Clips had we not made years 4 & 5 contingent on health. Nonetheless, the Clips offer set the market and RR apparently didn’t try to match much less up the offer.
i wouldn’t have wanted him for 5/75, all guaranteed; if that’s what it would have taken to keep him, i’m glad we didn’t. that’s too much.
with the assumption that 5/75 was the necessary amount to keep him, then i’ll stand by that the best possible offseason would have been not to sign either baron or maggs and the best possible mid-season (front office wise) would have been to not extend jack or trade for crawford. not resigning baron didn’t mean that we needed to get maggette, it was a panic move. a less expensive panic move than the attempts at brand and gil, but a panic move nonetheless.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
wow thats gay...BD should accepted that..cause thats like 12 mil the first year, 13 the second 14 the third
thats hella money…but he decided to leave and join the clipps and become a fatass who lost his love for Bball
ps
rec for a well-written, organized post that included your previous assessments – too few posters are willing to either own up to prior miss-assessments or change their opinions based upon new information, making you among those to be respected here …
giving the monta signing an "F+"
by giving him that grade you are saying that you would have preferred to not have signed him at all over giving him that deal. it’s a 6 year deal, and as you said, he was looking back to his old self by the end of the year. if he plays like his old self for the next five years, he’s earned that money.
personally, i’m not worried about him missing the last few games, because my assumption is that sitting him was at worst a precautionary action and more likely, using an injury that would have sidelined him for one game to sit him for the season and avoid losing the 7 slot come draft day. i know you didn’t mention that injury, so i assume you feel the same way, but i felt it was worth bringing up.
what you said about him needing to become a superstar to bring the warriors back to relevancy is interesting. i’m not sure that he does need to do that. with his contract, he could easily be the second best player on the team because it didn’t destroy our chances to get someone who can play at least on his level, and possibly better. it was the other contracts that murdered us and i’d be up for dealing the first rounder to get rid of one of those crappy deals. if monta improves a bit from the ‘07-’08 season, plays like an all-star and we get another high quality starter to play along side him, that contract looks great and the warriors become a very good team. whether or not we can get that player is the question, but calling monta’s contract an F+ seems to be overreacting to an injury that killed us this year, but shouldn’t affect the team much beyond that (other than getting us a higher pick this draft).
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Apr 19, 2009 6:58 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
if the ellis signing grade's an F
he should logically also be in the list of trade assets. I’d only grade it a D, but I’m pretty convinced the team can’t seriously contend unless either m’gette or ellis get dealt. Ellis will miss games intermittently for the rest of his career because of the ankle, but that’s not the main reason there’s too much tied up in his deal. As many here have noted, a small combo guard who won’t defend isn’t that irreplaceable, and I’d go further, in his case his mind set is not about making the team better. If you watch ellis or m’gette enough you’ll see two guys reluctant to share the ball, at a level usually seen in obviously selfish gunners on one hand, or people like Jordan and Bryant when they’re distrustful of ’mates on the other. ellis got the inflated deal the same way Richardson got one (when the better investment was Arenas), marketing to pander to the all-important casual fans who make all the difference in turning a profit.
He really is a B.... I'm just bitter.
His contract is still a “B” move, but after what went down this past season I’m just a bit pissed. Plus I’m not convinced he our answer anymore.
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D+
No BD or Monta = difficult year no matter what. The Dubs did okay considering they lost their entire backcourt and had more starting lineups than anyone in the NBA as a result of a slough of injuries.
Aside from that, the Dubs sucked this year for the mere fact they lost 65% of their games. Even though they had NBDL players playing major minutes throughout the year, that doesn’t justify anything except that they were who they were.
Some people might say that next year is our year, but since about 1995(Cohan took over as full time President) the Dubs have been HORRIBLE!!! Hopefully we land a Derrick Rose or Kevin Durrant in the Draft because at this point, I can smell 36-42 games in the won column next year.
hmm u have a very optimistic sense of smell
i just smell crappy hotdogs and another 7-8 years of late lottery picks
Ahhh 20/20 hindsight...
And a lack of foresight…
Monta an F+? At the time it happened, he was just getting ready to be the undisputed alpha dog on the court. He may not have been A+ worthy, but he wasn’t a bad signing by any measure. You’re grading decision making skills by something completely outside the realm of control. It’s like saying somebody’s smart for buying lottery tickets just because they won a million dollars. There’s a reason people call it the idiot tax.
Somebody’s decision making abilities should be judged on their decisions as they pertain to the information given at the time, NOT by the outcome of said decisions. And if we’re not grading decision making abilities, the grades have no bearing on any future expectations and are pointless.
Everything you’ve presented is purely based on speculation and outcomes. How do you know that we couldn’t have gotten somebody better than Turiaf? How do you know why Marcus Williams was signed? Do you know what we offered Baron? Do you know how that negotiation went? Maybe they could have got BD to stay for less by playing more nicely. I’m not saying you (or any of us for that matter) should know these things, just that you’re butting your nose in where you know jack sh.., and making proclamations on outcomes that have no bearing on actual decision making. Sure, some outcomes should be expected (Maggette missing 15-20 games, Marcus Williams being overweight and not up to the challenge of Nellieball, Gilbert Arenas being worn down after a few seasons of an injured knee, Andris continuing his level of performance), but others like (Maggette playing 15-20 games out of position on injured legs, Monta injuring himself in a dirt biking accident, Turiaf being great for the money, Anthony Randolph learning to be a man, Anthony Morrow being more than just a summer league phenom – though that certainly justifies taking a flier on the guy).
If Morrow had flamed out, you probably wouldn’t even be listing him here. It’d still have been a good signing because he was cheap, non-guaranteed, and interesting.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 21, 2009 9:28 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
butting your nose in where you know jack sh.., and making proclamations
that’s what this site is for – isn’t it?!
Glad you're in Boston....
Someone needs to relax and actually take the time to read the post because it is obvious your reading comprehension skills and ability to critically think take some time.
1)
Somebody’s decision making abilities should be judged on their decisions as they pertain to the information given at the time, NOT by the outcome of said decisions. And if we’re not grading decision making abilities, the grades have no bearing on any future expectations and are pointless.
I DID evaluate the moves at the time of the signings/before the regular season began. Click the link and the INITIAL grades were done July, 28th!! Is that not early enough for you? if you want to see my initials grades on the decision making abilities then read Part 1 or read the 1st block quote for each section as those were done before the season started.
As for the subsequent grades… yes they are based on hindsight, but they are more of a progress report and comparison to my initial grades on the off-season moves. To put it simply for you…. as the season progressed I did a mid-term review and final review to see if the moves turned out better or worse than I had initially expected.
Maybe for someone like yourself who likes to speak before they think there is no use in reflection of the past, but I find it a wonderful exercise to hold yourself accountable and see what you can do to improve.
2)
And a lack of foresight…
Monta an F+? At the time it happened, he was just getting ready to be the undisputed alpha dog on the court. He may not have been A+ worthy, but he wasn’t a bad signing by any measure. You’re grading decision making skills by something completely outside the realm of control. It’s like saying somebody’s smart for buying lottery tickets just because they won a million dollars. There’s a reason people call it the idiot tax.
Please see initial grade…….
What more is there to say? Monta is our future, he is our franchise and will be a real offensive threat unlike J-Rich because he has better handles and can jump off 1 foot. Monta Ellis can consistently get himself to the rim and has great finishing ability, couple that with his mid-range game and you have yourself an elite offensive player. His defense just needs to improve and I believe Monta has the work ethic to become a better defender. At the end of last season he also showed better playmaking ability and actually feed Biedrins the ball more in Pick and Roll situations over BD. I would much rather have Ellis for the next 6yrs for 66 million over Gilbert Arenas. People may say we overpaid… but Parker signed for the same deal and Ellis right now is just as good as TP, IMO.
GRADE: A … Ability to get to the rim, finish, and mid-range game make him a lock to continue becoming an ELITE offensive scorer.
So initially I felt it was a great signing for the Warriors, but as the season progressed and we saw how Monta handled the situation, how he returned, and his impact on the team. I don’t feel so hot about the signing as I did before. I know an “F+” is harsh and it really should be a “B”, but this season from Monta just left a sour taste in my mouth.
3)
Everything you’ve presented is purely based on speculation and outcomes. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
Sadly as a fan all we have is speculation and outcomes. If you want one of my articles that’s more numbers based maybe you should read my Monta Magic: A Look at the Numbers piece I did before his return. I’m also working on another article that is numbers in it so be on the look out for that.
4)
If Morrow had flamed out, you probably wouldn’t even be listing him here. It’d still have been a good signing because he was cheap, non-guaranteed, and interesting.
And you know that how…. or are you basing that on speculation and outcomes?
Now that I’ve completely PWNED your every critique please move along. Thank you.
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Jeez...
Initial gradings are fine. Revisiting them and changing your opinion 8 months after the fact is ridiculous.
4)
If Morrow had flamed out, you probably wouldn’t even be listing him here. It’d still have been a good signing because he was cheap, non-guaranteed, and interesting.And you know that how…. or are you basing that on speculation and outcomes?
I know this because you haven’t mentioned a grade on the Hendrix signing. Or the Jamero Nelson signing. You’re commenting on what you think is interesting. If Morrow had flamed out, he wouldn’t have been that interesting. End of story.
So initially I felt it was a great signing for the Warriors, but as the season progressed and we saw how Monta handled the situation, how he returned, and his impact on the team.
And you’re basing this on… what? The fact that he went out and had fun with his friends (which is, you know, what 22 year-olds do)? The fact that he and Nelson said contradictory things at one point? The fact that he was suspended? Again, you have no idea what happened behind closed doors. You have no idea whether Monta and his agent were the antagonists or if Rowell & co. were the antagonists. Every judgement you make is based purely on speculation.
Here’s my grading progression of a lottery winner:
Initial grade: F+
Yeah, it’s the idiot tax, but maybe this person enjoys the lottery
Mid-term grade: F+
Yeah, they got the first 3 numbers right, but they still paid the idiot tax. Hopefully they’re getting their kicks out of it this time.
Final grade: F+
Well, they just won $100M, so they got lucky this time. But, they’re probably going to blow half of it on future idiot tax payments… and the other half is going to the government in the form of taxes on idiot tax winnings. They’re still an idiot, and I would not trust them to make good financial decisions in the future.
I understand how people get mid-term and final grades in school, but that’s because there’s a CONSTANT progression of performance. This list, however, is a set of decisions that had to be made at a certain time and could not be altered after the fact. Whatever… enjoy yourself. Other people like your post. Why bother yourself with a Masshole like myself?
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 6:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Once more...
1)
I know this because you haven’t mentioned a grade on the Hendrix signing. Or the Jamero Nelson signing. You’re commenting on what you think is interesting. If Morrow had flamed out, he wouldn’t have been that interesting. End of story.
This argument right here proves that you nothing but a rambling mouthpiece.
You mean Richard Hendrix who we drafted in the 2nd round? He was omitted b/c I didn’t include rookies. If you look I did not include Anthony Randolph also because I did not want to grade the rookie draft picks since we had not seen them play.
Jamero Davidson was an IN-SEASON signing buddy. The title clearly states “Grading the OFF-season” moves.
As for DeMarcus Nelson he was signed AFTER Monta accident and WELL AFTER I wrote the initial piece. I wrote the initial grades in JULY and by that time Morrow was signed to a deal. DeMarcus Nelson on the other hand did not sign with the Warriors until September 9th.
To explain it again…. Hendrix, Jamero, and Nelson didn’t make the cut because they were non-factors at the time of the initial article. They were not omitted b/c they flamed. If that were the case I would have removed the entire section about Marcus Williams who I thought was a steal when we traded for him.
So obviously buddy you know NOTHING! Your “criticism” of my post are not based in fact, logic, or reason… but rather your own misinformed and most likely ignorant construction of the world.
2)
And you’re basing this on… what? The fact that he went out and had fun with his friends (which is, you know, what 22 year-olds do)? The fact that he and Nelson said contradictory things at one point? The fact that he was suspended? Again, you have no idea what happened behind closed doors. You have no idea whether Monta and his agent were the antagonists or if Rowell & co. were the antagonists. Every judgment you make is based purely on speculation.
BLAH BLAH BLAH
I understand how people get mid-term and final grades in school, but that’s because there’s a CONSTANT progression of performance. This list, however, is a set of decisions that had to be made at a certain time and could not be altered after the fact. Whatever… enjoy yourself. Other people like your post. Why bother yourself with a Masshole like myself?
Sure it’s based on speculation, but that’s all we have. I’m not a reporter nor an NBA insider. Also, I never once claimed anything I wrote as fact. I’ll agree with you there…. the piece was my “judgements” based on my observations and the information given to us as fans.
As for the comparison to mid-term and final grades… let me explain it again and I believe most readers are able to follow my logic. I am not trying to revise history, correct any wrongs, or hiding from my initial stances. All I wanted to do was analyze the impact of the off-season moves during the course of the season. Did the move turn out as planned? Did it turn out better? Did it turn out worse? Pretty simple.
Think of the Monta signing as if someone were getting a grade in Chemistry, the Morrow signing as as a grade in Geometry. Each off season move would relate to a school subject that was being evaluated for it’s performance/impact on the team over the course of the year.
Initial gradings are fine. Revisiting them and changing your opinion 8 months after the fact is ridiculous.
The mid-term and final grades ARE NOT REPLACEMENTS for the initial grades they evaluations based on “progression of performance.” Again, I’m looking back and evaluating the players performance against their contracts, the assets given up to acquire them, and/or contracts offered. Looking back and evaluating is NOT A BAD THING nor is it ridiculous. Reflection and evaluation are keys to self-improvement and growth.
I think you’ve proven yourself to be someone who has nothing worthwhile to discuss. Everyone is free to disagree with my judgments and I’ll gladly debate back and forth, but to totally discredit or disregard the article based on IGNORANCE is absurd.
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You mean Richard Hendrix who we drafted in the 2nd round? He was omitted b/c I didn’t include rookies.
Yet here you are talking about Anthony Morrow, a rookie.
Hendrix, Jamero, and Nelson didn’t make the cut because they were non-factors at the time of the initial article.
Morrow was just as a “non-factor” as Hendrix at the time. You just felt like he was worth mentioning. And you’d have probably given his signing an F if he’d flamed out.
"progression of performance."
Again, you’re grading a DECISION made 8 months ago. The outcome of that decision is a risk to be factored into that decision, but things like Morrow leading the NBA in 3pt %, Monta getting on a moped, could not have been remotely predicted. Including those completely unpredictable occurences in your “grade” of that decision is completely and utterly pointless. I refer you back to my lottery analogy.
If your point is to say “See, look, Baron sucked this year, Gilbert didn’t even play, Monta injured himself, and Morrow was awesome.” Umm… We’ve already had plenty of fanposts and commentary on each of those topics and I already knew all that, but… thanks for sharing?
Everyone is free to disagree with my judgments and I’ll gladly debate back and forth, but to totally discredit or disregard the article based on IGNORANCE is absurd.
I just don’t understand the point of this post. It’s either a judgment on decisions made based on after the fact evidence or a regurgitation of known facts like “Monta injured himself on a moped”, “Baron Davis was awful this year”, and “Anthony Morrow was a great find!”. So, either it’s an epic failure or information I’ve seen many times before.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 23, 2009 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Dude....
Morrow was an UNDRAFTED FA.
That counts as a FA signing in my book and thus he was included. I don’t have Hendrix or Randoloph because they are ROOKIE DRAFT PICKS.
As for my post value of my post that’s your opinion. I can deal with that, but again you’re assumptions are way off base.
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Now that I’ve completely PWNED your every critique please move along. Thank you.
Seriously dude, let observers call pwnage. When you start calling it yourself, I imagine you at your computer like this:
You just sound like a butt-hurt tool.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions
did you learn from your disappointments?
ellis can only be responsible for his own actions and words, not for how his fans choose to hype and inflate him, and not for their feelings afterward when they learn how flawed his character (he’s like everyone else in other words) is. The way he handled his accountability for the injury, and the way he tried to come back as if the injury wasn’t causing any impairment, simply revealed him as a shallow and selfish individual.
That part is almost a separate issue from how his fans have exaggerated his abilities on the court. At his best, he’s a great scorer and exceptionally quick with the ball, and uses his quickness and jumps well to snare boards and loose balls. But that’s about it. He doesn’t have the other resources to be a team leader—the rhetoric about him becoming an alpha dog is laughable, sure he could for a bad team. He keeps making the same careless turnovers, the same mistakes on defense, so the reasonable conclusion would be he either doesn’t see what’s going on and where his ‘mates and opponents are on the floor (lack of ball i.q.), or he doesn’t care because he thinks his talent is enough to overcome such trivia. Anyone who persists in the T.Parker comparison, which I’ve heard over several seasons and scoffed at, is in denial as much as ellis himself was about how his injury affected his play. Signing him to the big contract never rated higher than a B, and everything that went down afterward was ellis being exposed for who he is.
Final Grade: F
One season of Maggs is all I can take. Sure he can put up points and rebounds a little, but that’s it. He just kills the entire offense when he’s in the game because he dominates the ball and that mentality INFECTS everyone else. You can’t beat opposing teams if you’re playing 1 on 1.
This is a common criticism of Maggette — Geoff Lepper harped on this a lot over at 48minutes. It strikes me as more of an aesthetic argument than an actual basketball argument.
Corey Maggette’s style of offense isn’t as fun to watch as that of most Warriors. It’s frankly downright annoying to watch at times — I tired of watching him drive like a madman as much as the next guy. But what he does is pretty effective, and I haven’t seen any evidence that our offense is somehow adversely affected by Maggette’s “selfishness”. I’m all for efficient scorers being selfish. I’d much rather have Maggette do his thing than have him pass to Jack or Crawford for a likely brick.
Maggette is far from a perfect player. Health is a skill, and he doesn’t grade well there, and his defense is also poor. One could argue that his defense is so bad that it outweighs his offensive contributions… I don’t believe that’s true, but it’s an argument one could make. I just don’t see the basis for the argument that Maggette’s offense hurts us. He scores well, and we score well with him. He’s an asset on that end, no matter how it looks.
I was going to comment on that as well
It’s more of a factor in the equation than a skill. It’s a known risk and something that should be factored into the judgment of the decision.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions
If he drove to the rim everytime than "Yes"... however.....
Check out his shot attempt % and fg%
Maggette is a beast driving to the lane like BD, but just like our boy BD he loves to settle for a jump shot when he’s rather poor at shooting jumpers. I would love Maggette if all he did was drive to the rim, but sadly that’s not what he did.
Maggette Profile @ 82games.com
65% of his FGA were jumpshots that he converted at a 38.6% clip.
Contrast that to…
35% of his shots being inside range at a 65.8% clip
and you can see Maggs doesn’t use his strength very often.
They don’t account for FTA in the shot breakdown, but Maggs was fouled on 20.1% of his 793 FGA (FGs+Fouls Drawn)…. so using some math.
793 (FGA) * .201 (Fouls drawn %) = 160 Fouls drawn
We than can subtract 160 from 793 and multiply by the above % to see his true jumpshot to driving rate…
633 non-foul shooting attempts
633 * 0.65 (jump shot ) = 411 jump shots @ 38.6 eFG
633* 0.35 (inside ) = 221 drives to the lane @ 65.8 eFG
If you add up his fouls drawn we get of his 793 FGA….
411 jump shots = 51.8% of his scoring attempts
381 inside or FT = 48.2% of his scoring attempts
In doing that actually he’s not too bad, but for someone who scores 65.8% inside and shoots 80% FT it’s frustrating to see him shoot jump shots at 38.6% half of the time. Clearly he’s not using his talents correctly. Than you add in his reluctance to pass and inability to defend and you can see that half the time 3/4 of the time he’s useless…. the 1/2 of the game spent “playing” defense and the 1/2 of the time on offense jacking up jump shots.
So we’re paying 10 million for someone who will be effective 1/4 of the time they are on the court.
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In doing that actually he’s not too bad, but for someone who scores 65.8% inside and shoots 80% FT it’s frustrating to see him shoot jump shots at 38.6% half of the time. Clearly he’s not using his talents correctly.
Heck, when he shoots dunks he makes 96.9% of them, why’s he bothering with anything else when that’s clearly his best skill?
When you’re guarding Maggette, you give up the jumpshot by laying off him and protecting against the drive because that’s what he does best. When you’re guarding Ray Allen you deny passes and contest shots because he knocks down open jumpers. When you’re guarding Shaq, you foul him because he can’t make free throws. Get it? It’s called defense. You may not be aware of this because the Warriors don’t often utilize the “play defense” strategy, but it’s a pretty fundamental aspect of competitive sports.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 6:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Thing is Maggette....
Could drive to the lane almost at will, but how many times do we see him dribble, dribble, dribble, and than shoot a jump shot or else get the ball and shoot a jump shot immediately?
I understand the defender trying to take away Maggette’s strengths, but b/c they take away a lay up doesn’t mean you have free reign to shoot the ball.
The thing with Maggs is once he gets the ball… he will make an attempt to score whether it is a bad shot or not. If they’re laying off of you and you shoot 38% from the field than pass the ball. Just because you get the ball does not mean you have to shoot it every time.
He has a 1.8 ast/2.5 TO ratio. That is HORRIBLE.
A good basketball player will force the action to his strengths or else set up a teammate to their strengths. Sadly, Maggette only knows how to play 1 on 1.
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his defense aside, m'gette's offense very limiting
the obvious factor—taking the team out of fluid ball movement, is just one aspect. For his position, because of his chronic hamstring issues or age, he is average or a little better in speed, making him a wing who can’t contribute much on the break, and only emphasizing how much a slower half court game suits him. If he was a little quicker to the hoop, he wouldn’t need to rely so much on the refs’ calls to get him to the line. In close games, or on the road, finishing his drives with conversions instead of hoping for the whistle would make him a real plus instead of a ‘sometimes’ or ‘mostly’ o.k. scorer.
chronic hamstring issues
When has he had hamstring issues in the past? Foot issues? Yes. Generally banged up? Yes. Chronic hamstring issues? No. It was just one injury this season that they didn’t properly take care of.
If he was a little quicker to the hoop, he wouldn’t need to rely so much on the refs’ calls to get him to the line.
He’s got size and strength for his position. On a per minute basis, he’s top 3 in the NBA in getting to the line, without the benefit of “star calls”. He doesn’t “rely on the refs calls” to get him to the line, he forces his will upon his defender which gets him to the line.
He’s an excellent scorer. If you want to talk about how that’s all he can do, fine. But by “scorer” standards, he’s very good at that.
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by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 24, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Overall Grade: C-
not resigning Baron was a good move, he’s past his prime. Signing Maggette, wow, was that a waste of money, getting over 50 Million over the next 5 years to play of the bench. Finding and signing Anthony Morrow was great. The Warriors are good at finding undrafted players (ex. Azubuike, CJ Watson). The Dubs signing Turiaf was the best pick up in the off season. Trading for Marcus Williams: First impressions of the signing (WTFFFF!!!)
If you want a success story just take a look at mine.
In Maggette's defense...
I am no Corey Maggette fan. Never have been or will be (and I see the irony in putting “defense” right next to "Maggette). However, I really think Corey flourished in his 6th man role during the end of the season.
*It’s a given that he’s going to miss 15-20 games a season; if he’s coming off the bench, it diminishes the impct his injuries have on the continuity of the line-up.
*He can play back-up 4 role off the bench. This brings him closer to the basket (and away from the 3-point line) on offense. His defensive deficiencies are also masked coming off the bench.
*Him not being the starter assures the leadership role stays in the capable hands of Captain Jack.
Now, is Maggette overpaid? Yes. Is he severly overpaid? Of course. But coming of the bench Maggette can help any team, whether your in the lottery or the Finals. If the goal is winning, Maggette can play a role.
I pretty much agree with everything you have to say, or have said differentley after the initial posting
But please, lets not demand trades. The only thing we need to do in the offseason is pray that Jamal opts out, there’s no room, and his salary is too big to take up a bench spot. We have a young, very young team, and let’s not forget that we haven’t even seen them play one game together as a full squad. We have set ourselves up really nicely, as of now, we need not add more pieces, we’re already hoping Jamal just walks away for nothing. Are lineup is set, and if we can get 20-30 fully healthy games, where everyone can play, we will make the playoffs. That of course is provided that after 20 games Monta or someone else crucial goes out for the rest of the season. So please, patience. I do not wanna see another former Warrior tearing it up in another uniform, making me hate being a fan of basketball, unless its Jamal. NO TRADES!!!!!!!
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