"GSW wins lottery" Who's your pick Griffen or Ricky???
by GSW9 on Apr 21, 2009 7:21 PM PDT
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PrintThere has been alot of talk about who we should take in the upcoming draft but what if we can win the lottery who would you pick out of Ricky Rubio or Blake Griffen.
Being a Warrior fan i know this is a long shot for us to win the lottery and if we did we would probably mess up some how anyway. Its not impossible though as Chicago won last year at the same spot we are at with more wins than us and you see the PG they got in Rose. But i think this will be fun to see what way people will go. Me personally i would have to take Rubio but it would kind of be a hard decision because we have always needed that man in the middle but i am high on Randolph and Wright. I am also high on Monta at PG but if you get a chance to draft a potentially elite PG you can't let it go away. Depending on who we would pick here is how the lineup would look:
PG Monta/Rubio/Maybe Watson
SG Jackson/Morrow/Marco
SFAzubuike/Maggette
PF Randolph/Wright
C Andris/Ronny
OR
PG Ellis/Watson/Marco
SG Stack Jack/Morrow
SF Kelenna/Corey
PF Blake/Randolph/Wright
C Dre/RT
I think the 1st lineup looks much better and maybe you could start Rubio and have everyone move over a position. There seems like a logjam with the 2nd lineup and all of this if hopeing Crawford opts out which i think he will.
But Warriors fans what do you think we should do if we somehow won the lottery..Go BIG or small???
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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thats a real tough call
I think if we got rubio it would solve a lot of needs and we could slide jack and monta down a spot in the starting lineup and have monta back in his original position. Then we would have a distributing very hard working point guard alongside the scorer in monta. I like griffin a lot though I think he is gonna be a star in the NBA. The only thing I wouldn’t like about griffin is where does it leave randolph? do we start griffin at the 4 and slide randolph down to the 3? or what do we do there? Either way I would be very happy with either!
There is no guarantee that Rubio would solve problems.
Having too many good big men is a problem most teams would love to have to deal with. There would be minutes for Randolph and Griffin.
There aren’t any minutes for Griffin with Wright, Randolph, Turiaf and Biedrins here. I also happen to think that Griffin is overrated.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 21, 2009 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
There aren’t any minutes for Griffin with Wright, Randolph, Turiaf and Biedrins here. I also happen to think that Griffin is overrated
there’s a solution for that problem but it gets a little complex….hang with me here: TRADE. Being able to put a talented young big with one of big contracts to get something of value in return wiould be a great scenario. I’m not sure I’d take Griffin, but its pretty ridiculous to not take him because there aren’t enough minutes. The higher you draft and the worse your team is, the more critical it is you take the BEST PLAYER on your draft board rather than the player that fits your teams needs.
Thing A
Well, I wouldn’t draft Griffin to begin with, though, and minutes wouldn’t be the reason as to why. I’m content with our four big men and we have a very clear need at point guard.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 21, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d rather have those four plus Rubio rather than taking Griffin and doing something else with the other big men.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 21, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I think if you view both of the prospects as equal in talent
then you pick the player where you have a need as well. In this case, Rubio.
If both prospects have equal talent
Take the big guy every time.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Apr 22, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
OMG
You just blew my mind. That is the easiest decision in drafting.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
There's a difference in "bigs"
Having a guy like Griffin who is a PF (and NOT a C) is different in value than having a guy who can play C.
I see the value of taking a C over any other position with equal talent, but not a PF, especially over a PG, which is the 2nd most important position (and most important to have at minimum a “good” starter)
It's interesting...
to me that you seem to see such a sharp distinction between the two big man positions. Does it really matter that much whether your solid rebounding, low post presence plays PF or C? If so why?
Is there really any difference between the two positions other than about an inch of height on average?
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Apr 28, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
There is a sharp distinction
What positions a guy can guard has a dramatic effect on his value. Think about it in terms of our new DPOY Dwight Howard- much of his defensive value is derived from the fact that he can guard Centers or Power Forwards, though the Magic don’t have the personnel to properly use that ability at present.
There is only so much of an impact that a 6’8" PF only player can have, and Griffin is a terrible defensive player right now.
On offense, his limitations matter because all of his shots are interior ones. He shot a total of 22 jumpers all of last year, with the rest being at the bucket plays (dunks, layups, post moves). Do you really think that a guy who will be shorter than at least 2 players on the floor every possession will be able to get his shot off with the same frequency or effectiveness? If so, I’ve got a bridge to sell you in Alaska.
In short, the main reason it matters is that a more limited player has fewer players that can be reasonably paired with him to make a successful frontcourt. For Blake Griffin, you have to have a guy who can defend C’s full-time (since Blake absolutely can’t guard them), which severely limits the options GM’s and coaches have to build a great team.
Eh ...
A lot of offensive systems use the 4 and 5 interchangeably. One guy is called a “center” because he defends the other team’s biggest player, the other a “power forward” because he doesn’t.
But what that means is that the definition of a center depends a lot on who else is on the floor with you. Exhibit a: Tim Duncan, who likes to be called a power forward even though he’s often the biggest player on the floor for the Spurs.
The defensive skill sets aren’t really that different, either. Sure, you’re more likely to have a PF who plays facing the basket like Amare or James Worthy, but lots of PFs post up as part of their regular game – Malone, Howard, McHale etc. The game has becoming a little more facing-the-basket oriented for bigs in the last dozen years, as it’s become more athletic – you see fewer player like Yao, who only really play with their back to the basket – but the difference isn’t that huge.
I find it unlikely that Griffin “absolutely can’t guard” centers. I mean, if Al Harrington can defend Yao …
The defensive side is what matters here
There are so many guys who have offensive skillsets that don’t match their physical attributes (think Dirk, Lamar Odom, and Kyle Lowry), that while that stuff matters, position definitions are pretty much only defined by who a guy can defend.
When you’re looking at Griffin, it is better to look at the totality of the position rather than isolated examples. For my own analysis, I typically use players #10-#20 in the league to guage if a guy can defend it, since the top 10 in most spots is too good to evaluate propery- no one can defend LeBron and Kobe other than elite guys, so they’re pretty irrelevant when we’re dealing on the margins like here. So for if Blake can guard C’s, I look to guys like Chris Kaman and Marc Gasol. It seems awfully hard to imagine Blake defending guys like that who have a full 4-5 inches on him with any consistency.
Are there isolated individuals that he could handle? You bet. The NBA is full of undersized C’s (think Marcus Camby when he plays C), but the other problem with thinking about Griffin guarding C’s is that the other big playing with him has to have the quickness to guard PF’s, which means that he can’t be that big either, so you’d probably see a team with a 6’8.5" and a 6’9" guy as their front court. I guarantee that in today’s NBA, a team with that short a front line can’t make a major dent in the playoffs without HoF level players at other positions.
also I have yet to meet anyone who I know has actually watched Griffin play more than once or twice who still thinks he’s overrated. Perhaps you’re the first…..but I doubt it.
Thing A
yea my biggest concern with him is how well his physical style would project against bigger better athletes, but I think you still probably have to either take the consensus #1 guy or trade down.
Thing A
dream scenario: we land the first pick…OKC or some other team really lusting after Griffin ends up at two and we’re able to pawn off Crawford by swapping picks.
Thing A
Nightmare scenario #1: we ‘win’ the #3 pick, one that brings the curse of Washburn, Dunleavy and JB Carroll (we traded the 3rd to get him). With Rubio and Griffin off the board, we’re stuck taking someone with no one really interested in trading up for guys who most don’t really see differing from 3 to 7, save that the higher you take one, the more you’ve got to pay him.
Nightmare scenario #2: other teams leapfrog and we watch NJ and NY take Griffin and Rubio while we pick 9th, taking a guy you’ve never heard of out of Tajikistan who has ‘upside’, but will stay overseas. Small silver lining is that the time overseas will allow him ot figure out what a basketball is.
Haha
Your realism isn’t welcome in this diary, glum. You should start a new diary entitled “GSW Pop #3”: the Bong, the Bottle, or Hara Kiri?
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Then again
The #3 pick is not completely cursed.
In recent years we’ve had Deron, Gasol, ’Melo, Horford, Mayo … and in ’84 that skinny SG from UNC…
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions
The #3 pick is not cursed. It is only cursed when we have the #3 pick. It is not possible to trade the curse away either. But if we keep it (Washburn, Dunleavy) we’re screwed. If we trade it (Hardaway for Webber after the pick; Parrish and pick-to-become-McHale for pick-to-become Carroll) we’re screwed.
What does it all mean? For us, three is not the magic number (no it isn’t).
If you do not believe in curses and the supernatural, you must have been asleep for the last 30 years. There is no plausible explanation other than demonic intervention to explain how a team can almost always be this bad for this long.
If we do pop the #3 pick, what would it take to move up 1 spot?
Is there a point system like in the NFL? I think if we traded the #3 pick and Wright and Azibukie that would be enough of an incentive to move down a pick.
Would Wright and Azubuike be enough to flop picks? No.
This is considered a 2 deep draft. In a much deeper draft in 93, the price was flopping picks plus 3 future picks and it was clear then that Hardaway was considered a better prospect than whomever goes 3 this year.
I don't think you can definetly say no.
I think it depends on who’s ahead of us. But if it falls the way the odds predict and Sac and Washington are in those spots, what would it take for them to move down, Monta or Biedrens?
No
It does not depend on who’s ahead of us. Trading two “average NBA player at best” players does not make up the difference between the #1 and #3 picks in the draft. You might, MIGHT be able to convince #2 to give up their spot if they already have a stud PG and Rubio is the only one available, but then again, they’ll get better offers elsewhere. BWright and Kelenna are not very valuable players. We love them, but that’s because they’re ours. You might be able to give up Randolph to move from #3 to #1. I think that’s about the LEAST it would take.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I would imagine that KAz has good value...
I mean, who else has the kind of production / salary?
Trading two "average NBA player at best" players does not make up the difference between the #1 and #3 picks in the draft.
Well, actually what I wrote was move from the #3 pick to the #2 pick and also trade Wright and Azibukie. I think some teams would at least consider it. Not trade the #3 and Wright and Azibukie for the #1.
i'm not so sure griffin will be a good big man yet...i mean he was incredible in college, but unlike beasley and durant (previous freshmen that put up huge numbers)...
griffin relied on his strength and athletisism to get those stats…i’m not so sure his athletisism and strength alone will get him so far in the nba
"so much losers" - hiero
Gotta go with Rubio after watching him tear teams up in China.
Gotta get rid of Crawford or Maggette. It would be unrealistic to think they could get rid of both. They both have their positives, but Maggette kills the flow and Crawdaddy just ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some teams might actually take Crawford, but there is no way he can make $9+ million in the open market.
Ohhh…… the headaches continue. Picking up both those contracts crippled the development of young players rather than filling long term needs on this team. One or the other is tolerable or exchangeable, but not both.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
I’d rather have Maggette and his 20.2 points and 5.7 rebounds off the bench or whatever the numbers were before he couldn’t continue.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 21, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Maggette
Is raw. I love him mainly because he can finish 3 point plays or get us some points when we are in a drought. Defeinetly get rid of Crawford. He’s a ballhog, an average shooter, and inconsistent.
The Time Is Now! Win Warriors Win!
i dont know how so many people like maggs
watch him playing jsut kills me, he kills the team game we have when he enters, all that happens is we clear a side for him…thats it
TOTALLY agree
people look at stats too much
if you look at the way the team plays when each player is in….crawford>>>maggs
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Results would not support your conclusion. The only statistic that in the end matters is how many points your team scores compared to how many your team gives up. In that regard, the results with Maggette were better, not much so, but better than with Crawford.
If you are ‘playing better’ but you get outscored more, I question what the value of ‘playing better’ is as you seem to be defining it.
by jae on Apr 22, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd!
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
i dont go by statistics in this...since both have similar stats essentially
but by watching every single game they have both played….
its pretty clear that maggette slows down our offense and HURTS the gameplay of everyone else around him
crawford hurts us on the defensive end pretty badly (maggs sucks at D too), but helps the players around him TYPICALLY (not always)….
not to mension…its pretty embarassing to watch maggette flopping all over the place every game
id much rather watch crawford than maggette playing….and in the end…NBA is an entertainment industry…i mean…if both players hurt our chances of winning equally…id much rather have the entertaining guy on the court…and the guy that helps the people around him play better…at least offensively
anyways…my feelings towards the two have nothing to do with the statistics….it has to do with how the flow of the game is when they are in…how their teammates are playing when they are in….
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Imagine a really good team
Maggette is a finishing touch on a championship-caliber team. Crawford is the top scorer on a perenial doormat.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
?
BOTH guys HAVE CONSISTENTLY BEEN top scorers on perennial doormats. If a team is truly only one scorer away from being a championship-caliber team I don’t think it would make all that much of a difference if they added Maggette or Crawford. Maggette is the better player but your “imagine” scenario is more than a little misleading.
Thing A
When most people say that two players have “similar stats” they seldom mean more than that they score the same number of points. What do you mean by ‘similar stats’? IN what way do you perceive them to be similar? I can see abundant differences.
Historically, Crawford has been less likely to help his team than Maggette.
Saying that you would rather watch Crawford is an aesthetic preference. This doesn’t mean that he is a more effective basketball player because you’d rather watch him. I find many fans of the game prefer some aesthetic styles that don’t necessarily result in more wins, but because they find it optically more appealing, consider it ‘better’. Whether or not the flow looks better is not really relevant if the ‘flow’ doesn’t result in a better point differential.
well aesthetics' is part of the game
because in the end we really just want to be entertained, we may understand that player A is a little better ten player B but if player B is more fun to watch, well it might be worth a little bit.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
+1
Losing gets boring pretty quickly, no matter how impressive the athletes are.
Sorry to rehash the Crawford vs. Maggs debate
but seriously, Maggette would make a team like the Lakers or Cavs even better than they are, while Crawford would probably make them worse. It has to do with efficiency (number of shots and minutes needed to score however many points), Maggette getting to the foul line (meaning he’s getting the other team in foul trouble), and the fact that Maggette actually rebounds pretty well (something you want from a 3) while Crawford really doesn’t pass all that well (something you want from a 1 or 2).
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
meh
I don’t think anyone is saying Crawford is a better player than Maggette, but I don’t know that I’d go so far as to say Crawford would make a team like the Lakers worse. Sure he’s an inefficient scorer most nights, but he also wouldn’t be asked to score much on either of those teams. And his passing is about as good as Maggette’s rebounding.
Thing A
If the Lakers were smart, Crawford would almost never, ever play. His scoring wouldn’t help them and his defense would cripple them. His passing? It’s nice, but it’s just a couple nice passes a game out of isolation, not actual running of an offense. His passing might rate as well as Maggette’s rebounding, but Maggette’s rebounding is a helluva lot more helpful to a team.
Crawford is honestly a pretty bad player. I don’t really blame Nellie for playing him a lot… every coach has done it. But I do think the smart franchises in the league see through him pretty easily.
I think a lot of it has had to do with his role on those teams. He hasn’t exactly been surrounded by a whole lot of talent. I’m not saying Crawford is great or even good, but at the right price I think he would be a fine addition for the Lakers. Hey its not as though Fisher or Farmar have been outstanding this year.
Thing A
I agree
I think Crawford’s main problems (boards, defense, finishing strong, drawing fouls) are due to bad habits/poor effort. Considering his history as a streetballer and later on so many bad teams, it’s understandable (not necessarily excusable though, he’s getting paid too much to play streetball on ESPN)
But I think Phil and Kobe could recognize e a skilled player beneath the apathetic surface and knock some sense into him. I can imagine a 20 mpg backup combo guard enjoying a career resurgence in LA.
When in his carreer
has Crawford shown that he can be successful with 20 minutes a game? Maggette has shown he is more adaptable to coming off the bench.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Crawford’s never played in a single meaningful NBA game. Who says he can’t respond positively to responsibility?
Really?
What do you consider meaningful? At this point if he hasn’t figured out how to overcome his shortcomings what makes you think that he would respond well to limited minutes?
I’m afraid at this point in his career it may be too late.
Thing 2
He has never played on a winning team. People never expected much out of his teams (at least compared to the Spurs, Lakers, etc) You could probably count the number of times he’s been on national TV on your hands and toes.
In short, not many people cared whether Crawford played defense, was efficient. People just wanted to see his killer crossovers and 50 point explosions.
But if he ends up on a championship contender, all of that can change. It’s not the limited minutes that would make the difference but the intensity and meaning that he hasn’t experienced in his his 9 seasons in this league. I don’t know if his Michigan team was competitive but Michigan has been pretty bad in this decade. And obviously before that he played and1 or something.
Of course it could very well be too late. But looking at his skillset and then his productivity, it’s clear he produces less than he could. He’s not going to maximize his potential on a lottery team like ours though, that’s for sure.
An interesting take on Crawford playing on losing teams: He’s both been a substandard player who hasn’t helped his team win that much AND he’s been unlucky and been on teams where even if he was fabulous, they still wouldn’t have been very good.
Crawford has never played in the postseason.
Could he learn, really?
I don’t know if he’s entitled to that benefit of the doubt.
Some players never put out that kind of effort, even on good teams. Others do, even on bad teams. We know he’s not in that second category, but is it fair to assume he could just turn it around on the right team?
At 29 and with 10 seasons under his belt, I’d vote heavily against Crawford learning anything that substantially changes the way he plays at this point.
A coach and teammates might get him to increase effort (and the effort has been lacking) but at this point, what’s that effort going to be paired with? He hasn’t been spending time developing good instincts or habits for so long. I would strongly suspect that increased effort would result in many more fouls but little else when he tried to do ‘something’ but had no real background as to what that something should be.
Maggette still plays starter minutes off the bench. How has he shown he’s more adaptable to ACTUALLY being a bench player?
Thing A
and again
nobody is saying Maggette isn’t a much better player than Crawford. I’m just saying that the right price (2-5 mil per yr), in the right role (backup combo guard, asked to come pick up the offense with his scoring and passing when the team’s star sits (a la Louis Williams) Crawford is not a bad player. Unfortunately we don’t have the right role for him and his contract is about double the right price.
Thing A
keep in mind
Phil couldn’t get Malone, Payton, et al to mesh during Kobe’s rape allegations – he’s not a miracle worker … he’s been very fortunate to coach MJ, Shaq, Kobe etc and he’s done great with them …
More than them not meshing, he cannot turn a 40 y/old Malone into the 29 year old model and only got a half a season out of him. Payton at 35 was still pretty good on one end of the court, but he was no longer ‘the glove’ on defense. Shaq didn’t play a whole season. It’s probably also worth noting that Kobe’s legal problems began after a trip to Colorado for knee surgery. He wasn’t ever at 100%, legal problems aside.
But even given all that, he got the Lakers to the NBA finals. It was a shock to everyone that Detroit beat them, but everyone at the time underestimated Detroit (they didn’t have “stars” so they couldn’t win). The Pistons’ success over the next few seasons, (including another finals appearance where they took the Spurs to 7 games) makes me think it wasn’t nearly the colossal upset that everyone thought it was at the time.
But yes, Jackson has been fortunate to have coached some of the best to ever play the game. It makes the job considerably easier.
I you think back to the "We Believe team" and the year after team
those teams could score, but sometimes got in droughts and couldn’t put the ball in the bucket causing them to lose some close games. Being able to get to the freethrow line and shoot it at 85% is valuable no matter how you look at it.
I don’t mind Maggette’s play as much as the length of the contract. Two years less would of been okay with me.
You just said
“watching him tear teams up in China.”
How many Chinese that relevent in the NBA, 1?
I suppose if I go to Zimbabwe(sp?) and tear up kids there I am first round material? Too much hype is being made about this kid, same with Rudy Fernandez who cant even get on the court because he gets overpowered to easily, and pretty much all he does is 1 LA-Hoop Dunk and 1 – 2 3 pointers per game.
Its a no brainer, it would be Griffin, even though I dont see how different he would be from Hendrix honestly. He is not going to outmuscle anyone in the NBA. Hell, Oden cant lol
But whatever he is the sexy pick right now, in an otherwise dismal draft. I predict 0 all -stars will come out of this draft for the next 3 years.
Um....
You just said
"watching him tear teams up in China."
How many Chinese that relevent in the NBA, 1?
I suppose if I go to Zimbabwe(sp?) and tear up kids there I am first round material?
Well, if the Olympics were being held in Zimbabwe (like they were in China) and you went there and played very well against the best competition in the world (including CP3) I guess that would make you first round material.
By the way, what is a
LA-Hoop Dunk?
Thing 2
Rubio
We have Randolph, Biedrins, Turiaf, and Wright. No need for Griffin. Rubio would be a perfect fit for Nellie.
The Time Is Now! Win Warriors Win!
GRIFFIN
we don need a 165 lb PG who doesnt play D
blake griffin, low post force, freakish athete, a mix of boozer and amare, with pretty good ball handling skills
rubio and monta will never work anyways, thatd be the worst defensive back court ever
we don need a 165 lb PG who doesnt play D
I admittedly haven’t seen Rubio play outside of a couple Olympic games but he’s supposed to project to be an above average defensive player. Also I think he’s listed at 180….its still light, but considering his age its not a huge concern.
blake griffin, low post force, freakish athete, a mix of boozer and amare, with pretty good ball handling skills
I like Blake Griffin, but I’ve never seen him display any good ball handling skills. It seems to me that he turns it over quite a bit when he does try to put it on the floor….probably the weakest part of his offensive game.
Thing A
I havent seen him play
Does he have a low post game?
"we don need a 165 lb PG who doesnt play D"
This must be a joke because this kid will be among top 5 defensive PG in the league and I’m confident that he would lead the league in steals at some point in his career.
Don't leave money on the table
There’s no question we should draft Griffin. As the Wolves showed, even if you want Love, you draft Mayo.
Griffin is an incredible talent. Think bigger and faster boozer/millsap. Rebounding is one skill that translates directly from college to the NBA and Griffin is incredible at it. There’s a reason why he is the consensus number one pick from all the GM’s.
Rubio is great. He’s a consensus number 2. But do he’s a bit more risk and a bit more of project. I like Griffin for the Warriors much better.
Rebounding
It transfers well if the guy did it in the right place.
Blake Griffin was a beast rebounder in the Big XII, hands down the worst major conference for big men. I’ve been building a spreadsheet of how top level players played against NBA talent, and Blake only played against two big men that will get drafted this year (Tyler Hansbrough and Taj Gibson, and neither of them is close to an NBA starter). He didn’t even play against Cole Aldrich, the only other big in the conference that isn’t garbage.
So yes, boards can transfer (see: Millsap, Paul) but only if in the proper context. From my experience, Griffin will be a good, but not great rebounder in the NBA- more of an opportunistic one than a beast one.
Why do you think that Millsap, who played in a mid-major conference which was presumably not as strong as the Big12, saw his rebounding transfer? Why is it less likely that it will transfer fully for Griffin? What is the different “proper context” between the two?
My biggest worry with Griffin’s rebounding is that Beasley was a beast rebounder at KSt. and has been much more pedestrian in the pros and Durant similarly dominated the boards at TX but has been unable to do so against NBA guards. I don’t know why Griffin would or would not follow this pattern. He’s a different person from both of the aforementioned, but it’s a concern that it could happen.
It's how you get the rebounds
There are three ways to get rebounds: Positioning/instincts, physical attributes (height/vertical/etc), and desire.
Obviously, most are some combination of the three, but the groupings hold somewhat well in theory. The difference between Millsap’s boards and Blake’s (as someone who has watched alot of both of them in college) is that Blake’s come more from him being more physically dominant than the players he played both with and against. This is where the conference of no bigs matters, and his teammates do too, just as Kevin Durant’s #‘s were artificially high because there wasn’t another player on his Texas team that could board. This can also be compared to Kevin Love (who I watched an insane amount of in college as a recent UCLA alum), who produced with an incredible rebounder in Luc Richard Mbah a Moute next to him.
For Millsap, his college rebounds were more in the desire and positioning/instincts group. It’s true his physical limitations were masked behind the competition, but what I saw in him (much as I did in Carlos Boozer at Duke) was a guy who had excellent rebounding instincts and fought incredibly hard for them. Griffin showed excellent desire last year, but his positioning for boards was shaky at best, partially because it really didn’t matter.
The other guy that’s worth mentioning here is Tyler Hansbrough. I was in San Antonio for the Final Four last season, and spent 5 full minutes just watching him. I was shocked to find how terrible his rebounding instincts were. He still put up decent #‘s against Kansas in that game (and at that time), but it was sort of like watching an outfielder who can’t read the ball when it’s hit. Sure he grabbed the boards then, but he will not get them in the NBA where players are bigger, stronger, and better without dramatic improvement in all elements of rebounding.
griffin
without a doubt. great athlete who would fit into warriors faster paced play i think plus he might play defense (unlike most of the warriors players) and rebound. wright and a couple other players on the roster are expendable. make a trade for a real PG if you dont want all those “big men”. more like stick figures with AR, BW, and AB.
im uh come right out and say it
i dont like Griffin, and dont think he’s gonna be that great…….yeah, i said it………do somthin!
Solve the problem
by trading Wright if we get Griffin. He could play the 4 with Randolph and Dre and Turiaf at the 5. Wright is no need if we get a guy like Griffin.
Although i do think girffin is that great, Rubio is also overrated
JAMES HARDEn is the way to go.
We pick Griffin and trade down for James Harden
Damn
i might have missed that. I havent been following who is staying and who is going to the draft. I just thought he would go to the draft since he would be practically gaurented top 3
im not sure, i might be mixin ppls up
but i think cause his stock dropped after some bad play in march
^^^^
I meant although i dont think Griffin will be great
^^^^
Is already under contract.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 2:02 AM PDT up reply actions
we should resign rob kurz to a 6year 66million dollar deal
We Believe
by RunNdGun on Apr 21, 2009 10:48 PM PDT reply actions
No, because then
he’s have enough money to buy that moped he’s always wanted.
by ZaMzAm FiRe on Apr 21, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions
SAVE YOUR BREATH EVERYONE
we’re gonna slip down and pick between 9th and 14th.. enjoy reality!
I KICKED IT WITH JESUS ONCE.. HE'S KIND OF A PRICK
It's impossible for us to get lower than 10th
I’m pretty sure about that.
Right.
And the chance of #10 (i.e. three teams from #8-14 grabbing the three lotto slots) is close to zero. So the chance of our picking “between 9th and 14th” (non-inclusive) is basically zero.
Enjoy reality!
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions
I have a question
Is the fact that Rubio has a buyout option going to seriously impact his draft stock, especially considering the fact that many of the lottery teams already are in dire economic straits?
NBAdraft.net has Washington taking Rubio, yet they are committed to Arenas at PG for another six years. LA is in the same situation with BD. Oklahoma and Memphis are happy with what they currently have at PG.
Given this, do you think it is possible Rubio slips down to 4-7?
There is a limit to the amount a team can contribute to a player’s buyout from an overseas contract (a couple mil if memory serves) If the buyout is more than that it comes out of Rubio’s salary which is determined by draft order. It’s not the sort of price difference that would dissuade any team from picking him, though if he were to say that he was staying another year to minimize the hit on his own pocketbook, a team wanting immediate help might pass on him.
Answer is no.
$500,000 is chump change for an NBA team. The only party who might have been deterred by the buyout terms is Rubio, who will now likely have to reach into his own pockets to sweeten the deal for DKV Joventut. As the #1 or 2 pick making roughly $4M a year to start he can probably live with the financial hit.
As for the diary question: I’d either (a) take Rubio or (b) if we’re pretty sure #2 wants Griffin, force them to take Maggs, Craw, or Jack (and send us back a shorter contract in return) to flop picks.
ps: Where’s the poll?
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 4:43 AM PDT up reply actions
No, he cannot demand a higher contract.
First round rookie contracts are assigned entirely by draft position as per the CBA. It’s set in advance. The ‘negotiation room’ is that teams can pay up to 120% (and no less than 80%) of the set figure, which in practice means every player gets 120% of the figure. Beyond that, there’s no room to negotiate. The league would invalidate anything else.
off topic, but the NFL needs a rookie scale as well.
$40 mil guaranteed for Alex Smith and he can’t do $#!t
If we want to talk about this team playing some D then
we have to take Rubio to play along Monta. With Rubio we would score 130 a game. This kid just understands the game of basketball perfectly. We would run run run all game long like in the good old days.
after watching hours of youtube clips of blake and ricky...
i think ricky might me a more ready NBA product. i don’t know about you guys, but i can’t bear another rebuilding year.. like 06-07 this coming season has got to be BREAK OUT, PLAY-OFF, semi-finals year..
I KICKED IT WITH JESUS ONCE.. HE'S KIND OF A PRICK
Just curious
Based on what I’ve read, it looks like the lottery only determines the first 3 picks. So would it be safe to say that if the Warriors are NOT in the seventh place when Stern & co. are revealing the pick numbers that we have one of the top 3 picks?
Correct
Assuming they also haven’t been called 10th, 9th or 8th.
See jae’s comments regarding the lameness of pick #3, though. Imagine the cruelty of slipping past slots #10,9,8, and 7, and allowing ourselves to BELIEVE Griffin/Rubio, only to hear: “… and the number three pick goes to … the Golden State Warriors”…?
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 6:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Always pick a big star over a little star.
however after watching some playoffs I can see why some people want a real court vision PG on this team. Don Nelson once said that all Monta needs is to see how much fun it can be to get dimes and he will be an all star PG, we’ll see if he figures that out.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
A white dwarf is way more powerful than a red giant
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Rubio or Griffin?
They say Rubio is a nash player except a worse shooter but much better defender. So hes still a good shooter but not great and a above average to good defender. Griffin levels out as a more athletic boozer. I’d take rubio.
To me it will all come down to where the Warriors select.
We’re just not a very good team to not select the BPA. Having depth at the 4/5 is a problem i’d like to have.
If we land the #1:
Blake Griffin – Consensus #1 player. If he’s available when your team selects, you take him no matter what. You can always trade him later.
If we land #2:
Ricky Rubio – Consensus #2 player. We need a playmaking PG, and i’d admit that I think this is our biggest concern. But still, if Griffin is available, take the best player and see how you can fit him into the team.
If we land #3:
James Harden – I still think this guy is going to be gone between the 3-5 picks. There’s no other player that can match his production and projection left in the draft. There may be guys with higher upside, but with that a higher likelihood of being a bust.
If we land #7, 8, 9, 10:
Take the BPA – Nothing is a sure thing, so might as well take the best player.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
James Harden will be a bust if we take him #3. If someone else takes him #3, he has a chance to be special.
We cannot possibly expect anything good to come of getting the #3 pick.
Haha.
hardcore with the jinxes huh?
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
What would the Warriors do with Harden?
He absolutely can’t play the PG in the NBA, so even if the Dubs play Monta out of position as the primary ballhandler the entire game, the Warriors have to balance 48 minutes between Harden, Marco, Kelenna (who can play some SF too if SJax or Mags could be moved), Morrow, and Crawford if he doesn’t opt out.
you listed a bunch of mediocre players that we have at the sg slot. i’m willing to find some time for harden in with that group. he’ll likely be a better player than marco, he probably already is a better player than crawford, buike should be playing the sf, splitting time with mags, jack should be getting most of the off guard minutes but is getting older and morrow seems to be the best player at that position who isn’t a captain, but harden could very easily be better than him shortly.
a swingman rotation that is mostly jack/mags/buike/morrow/harden isn’t too overloaded especially considering the likelihood of injury within the group. and of the bunch, it seems like harden has the highest ceiling. we need another legit backcourt starter, it could be morrow, but harden seems more likely to fit the bill due to the balance in his offensive game. i do like morrow though and really don’t feel like a little competition would be bad for him. we do need to clear out some of the deadweight, but if we can’t, we don’t need to put the deadweight on the court. there are spots on the bench that i’d be happy to have them keep warm.
note: i do like the monta pg idea and feel it solves our backcourt issues better than praying for a big point guard to move him back to the 2. harden also seems to understand how to facilitate fairly well and could help out in that regard.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Griffin
will allow the Warriors to be more effective in half-court offense situations. Keep in mind, he’s athletic enough to run and gun too. Our bigs currently rely on timing, being at the right place at the right time, and pure athleticism / length to grab boards. The team has been lacking a big time banger down low for years. You simply cannot pass up a legit (in 2 years of college at least), potentially dominant interior big man, most definately capable of 20/10 on a nightly basis. For all you AR at the 3 supporters, Griffin over Rubio should make perfect sense.
At this point, it is still hoping and wishing. Pray to the basketball gods that we don’t end up with the #3 like Jae said…
LeBron James? I'm the only Ty Crane.
this is all probably moot, but about half of you are nuts ... or maybe I am
Griffen hasn’t got handles? Please, we’re not asking him to play PG – can Rubio post up? My guess is most of the people here have never even seen Rubio play and are just going off of some one else’s opinion on another site …
Rubio will be a top 5 Def PG in the league. Really? as a rookie? in several years? Did anyone actually SEE him play def this summer? and was he guarding NBA players nightly? He might not even start on the Dubs, much less a team with a bonefide incumbant PG. Our history of drafting international players who are supposedly the “Jordan” of their country isn’t exactly awe inspiring to date.
We should draft Rubio because of Wright & Randolph’s minutes? Griffin is going to be solid at worst, a Boozer or better at best. He’s athletic, strong, plays with passion and intensity. Rebounds like a beast, played against the best competition – and was the opponents’ focal point every game yet dominated. You don’t pass on that when the opportunity to draft him comes you take it. Having spare bigs is a luxury we’ve never had around here, maybe that explains why so few understand the value of having surplus quality bigs – you can trade them and get more for them because they are harder to come by.
Picking #3 is a nightmare? As someone else said, the nightmare is dropping down not moving up. Who wouldn’t rather have #3 than #7? You are sure to get the guy you want, and almost as certainly a better deal in a trade.
a poll would be interesting, but it might just confirm that half of us are nuts – including me
I watched him play in China. Guy is a boss.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Apr 22, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Clearly, you do not believe in the supernatural. The #3 pick has been a nightmare for us. Our history when we’re scheduled to pick 3 has been poor. Unless you’ve got a good witch doctor or have priest ready for the exocism or get Dr. Strange to cast the right spell, we don’t want the #3 pick. I brings bad mojo to put it mildly.
the next 5 projected players after rubio/griffin are....
jordan hill
hasheem thabeet
james harden
brandon jennings
tyreke evans
-———-
i guess i’d take harden
but, But, BUT I thought you were the numbers guy – wouldn’t our previous bad luck mean we are due for an inevitable turn of good luck now? I’m not religious when it comes to sports, just superstitious, afterall the two-tone rabbit’s foot isn’t doing any harm now is it? Clearly, being a GSW fan has turned us all crazy, we are all nuts as evidenced by being here now
You're never "due" for luck
It doesn’t work that way. If you flip heads three times in a row, the next flip is still just as likely to be heads as it is to be tails.
+1
“Having spare bigs is a luxury we’ve never had around here, maybe that explains why so few understand the value of having surplus quality bigs – you can trade them and get more for them because they are harder to come by.”
BWRIGHT becomes completely tradeable if we take Griffin. An eventual frontcourt of Randolph, Griffin, and Biedrins would be among the best in the league for years to come. And yea, I think Randolph could be a 3 in a couple years.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
rubio is overrated atm
He is averaging 6 assists in a weak ass euro league. instead of watching his highlights go watch the whole game. this guy is physically weaker than most kids in Mission high school.
Ok i’ll give him floor vision. but anyone thinking that he is gonna stop any SGs in NBA is fooling themselves. Picture Ricky guarding Kobe, Or Ricky guarding Iguodala, Ricky guarding DWade etc. For him to play next to Monta he will need to put on 30 pounds and bench press for next 5 years.
If we can get a real banger we will add toughness to this team, which has been sorely lacking for as long as I can remember.
uhh he did it at the olympics
when he was 17. Its a bit unfair to think of him at 18 guarding the best SGs in nba consistantly, try and look at where he’ll be in 3 years
Does anyone stop Kobe or Wade?
Translating assist totals in a euro league where games are only 40 minutes to begin with to something meaningful by NBA standards is difficult. I do not know if assists, which are already subjective and assigned differently by different NBA teams, are handed out as readily there as they are here.
to add to that, look....
look at cp3, deron williams college assists. Both were at 6 per game. Euro league is much tougher than ncaa
on jae's point
euro league is a different game, where players pass more. Its not just dribble penetrate like you see here.
Take a look at his per 40 adjusts: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ricky-Rubio-1155/stats/
compare to:
-cp3: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chris-Paul-14/stats/
-deron williams: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Deron-Williams-72/stats/
what worries me
is thew turn overs, but then again he’s a teen playing with 30 year olds…
weak ass euro league
LOLOL
30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ
by Lat We N Trash on Apr 22, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
he guarded
cp3 and kidd just fine…
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
He is averaging 6 assists in a weak ass euro league.
True … in 22 minutes a game. That works out to over 9 assists per 36.
“Weak ass league,” whatever … I’m not sure how weak ass it is, and I’m pretty sure you’re not sure how weak ass it is. To the degree that it is weak ass, wouldn’t the guys he’s passing to be just as weak ass as the guys defending him?
For the people interested in the whole picture (rather than simply badmouthing Rubio ‘cos they’ve decided to stake out an uninformed position that he’s weak ass) here are his numbers per 36 minutes, as an 18 y.o.:
16.2 pts (42% fg / 46% 3fg / 80% ft)
7.4 fta (this is such a fabulous number, I almost question whether it’s a typo)
9.3 ast
3.8 reb
3.4 stl
4.4 to
Turnovers are worrisome, but overall that’s a pretty promising line for a young kid recovering from a broken hand.
If we popped the #1, I think I would pick Rubio (or trade down and pick him). And I love Blake Griffin.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
if they call that league 'weak ass'
then whats the ncaa?
cuz i know that euro league would >> the ncaa…
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
hmmm….I wouldn’t bet on that. The talent is more diluted in the NCAA because of the number of teams, but overall there is better and more talent in the NCAA. I’d definitely take the ’09 Tarheals over Moscow, Panathinaikos or Maccabi Tel Aviv.
Thing A
i dont know man
limited knowledge of the euroleague, but from what I’ve seen I think they would pwn. unless you’re measuring missed layups or number of shirts worn under jersey, i can’t think of anything the ncaa would be better at.
**WE DESERVE**
"They can trade me," Bonds said. "I don't think they will, though. It's not like I want to be traded, man. I'm a Giant. I'm stuck here till the end."
his 6 assists...
…came in 22 mins a game though…
yeah, uhm u guys are right
i’d like to take that comment back. rubio is not averaging 6 assists per game in a weak ass euroleague.
he is averaging 2.8 assists with 2.4 TO, while shooting 28%, 2.4 points and 62% FT in a euroleague, while playing 13 min per game. (http://www.euroleague.net/competition/teams/showteamstats?seasoncode=e2008&clubcode=JOV)
I assume 6 assists comes from playing in a even weaker spanish league.
However I do like JR Holden :D
Haha
Dude, the numbers you’re citing so smugly are based on 66 TOTAL MINUTES PLAYED.
In the similarly small sample size of your posts in this thread, my statistical extrapolations indicate that you’re either (a) completely clueless about how to use numbers; or (b) a bit of a dishonest tool.
And unlike Rubio, you don’t appear to have a throng of experienced, knowledgeable, impartial observers who think you’re unusually good at what you do.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions
ah ok, i guess i cant be right no matter what i say now.
but at least i’m not being a dick every time someone disagrees with me.
16.2 pts (42% fg / 46% 3fg / 80% ft)
7.4 fta (this is such a fabulous number, I almost question whether it’s a typo)
9.3 ast
3.8 reb
3.4 stl
4.4 to
these are not coming from euroleague “top” competition jr holden daniel ewing carlos arroyo etc. these stats are compiled from spanish league.
and u can continue dissing my comments i don’t care, i went to college and i studied statistics, but i’m not pretentious, just another warrior fan like u.
at least i’m not being a dick every time someone disagrees with me.
Haha. Then again, you’re not exactly objective on the matter.
these are not coming from euroleague "top" competition jr holden daniel ewing carlos arroyo etc. these stats are compiled from spanish league.
DId anyone say otherwise? Did anyone ever call the Spanish league “top” competition? If you wanted to make a case for the worthlessness of competition in the Spanish league, you could have done so. It would have been a tough case to make, given (a) the success of Spanish players at the highest levels of competition; and (b) the fact that you know next to nothing about the Spanish league (correct me if I’m wrong). But you could have at least attempted to make a balanced assessment of Rubio’s numbers there, and how they might translate to the NBA. Instead, you decided to throw away the numbers you cited originally (with no statistical context) and make a new cheap, dishonest point based on a 66 minute sample size. And now when you get called on your shenanigans, rather than own up to them, you whine and act like a victim.
and u can continue dissing my comments i don’t care, i went to college and i studied statistics, but i’m not pretentious, just another warrior fan like u.
I have no idea what “pretentiousness” has to do with it. I dissed the comments because they were insincere and intended to mislead people rather than enlighten them. Assuming you learned something in college or stats class — or even in everyday life — you should know better.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I think your argument is very weak. Go look for drama on your TV.
I grew up watching euroleague and nba, as i’m from there, so yes you are wrong that i have no idea what I’m talking about. ncaa second division is tougher to play physically than spanish league. dont believe me? where do you play ball? I’ve played with college teams in europe and scrimed with pro players overseas and also played in USF Koret for 5 years with USF players a lot of times. In fact I moved to US because of basketball when I was 20.
guys here are a lot more athletic, that why they have so many players from US and South America playing in Europe. People there are tired of players that bank alley oop plays and don’t run the floor.
yeah i think rubio is all hype and no substance, and its my opinion, i’m expressing it, not going to back out of it, unless i think I’m wrong and You are entitled to yours. but your personal attacks are childish.
how am i not objective or even misleading? I assumed that his stats on nbadraft were compiled from euroleague competition, then i was wrong and corrected myself. You agreed with my initial point that he did average 6 assists in weakass euroleague, And you were wrong just as well. in fact you defended his stats, when in fact those stats are from spanish league.
Also he sucked for 66 minutes against top euro competition, u cant take that? I think chris paul, or d.will or d.rose would’ve killed in euroleague at 18 in the same 66 minutes. I bet CP3 or LeBron high school team would have won Spanish championship.
Rubio just does not do it right now. 65% FT that’s what he has. Maybe pressure got to him maybe he just sucks, I’m just pointing out the fact, and you have not provided one fact why he’s good other than he is 18 and overhyped.
I’m not buddha to enlighten you, if u want enlightment i suggest u go to some spiritual site. I dont believe in spiritual, i think its BS.
I don’t want warriors to sign another weak ass euro utube gangsta, ala belinelli, when I believe there are a lot of good players out of college like morrow and Azubuike. In fact we lucky that Morrow got noticed, otherwise his ass would’ve been freezing in Ukraine. Imagine Morrow shooting 3s 2 steps closer. People just don’t realize what they have here, and its natural to always look somewhere else.
Besides I don’t hate Rubio, but to put it in a context, he is 18 and other than couple flashy passes he showed nothing. NOTHING! I like him, and i think he could be ok, maybe 5 years from now. Maybe not, but now he is a project with no strength, and he is going to get beat up first year in NBA.
You seem to think that Rubio is a next Bball Jesus, so I’ll let him enlighten You when he comes over
I’ll admit that I was wrong, if he really does something special in NBA in his first 3 years, but right now I just don’t see it and that’s what I’m pointing out. What we need is a tall PG than can defend opposing SGs with the floor vision, Rubio not going to do it. Maybe not ever, definitely not in a first 3 years. I want us to go to playoffs and play defense.
by farid on Apr 23, 2009 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think your argument is very weak.
Which argument is that? That your posts on Rubio in this thread have been dishonest, misleading and superficial? That’s more an observation than an argument. And you give more evidence to support it every time you post.
I grew up watching euroleague and nba, as i’m from there, so yes you are wrong that i have no idea what I’m talking about. ncaa second division is tougher to play physically than spanish league. dont believe me? where do you play ball? I’ve played with college teams in europe and scrimed with pro players overseas and also played in USF Koret for 5 years with USF players a lot of times. In fact I moved to US because of basketball when I was 20.
A lot of words to say: “I know next to nothing about the Spanish League.”
yeah i think rubio is all hype and no substance, and its my opinion, i’m expressing it, not going to back out of it, unless i think I’m wrong and You are entitled to yours. but your personal attacks are childish.
The only thing close to “personal attack” I made was the comment about your coming off as “a bit of a dishonest tool” in your posts in this thread. I was trying to make a point about small sample sizes, but yeah, I could have been a bit more delicate. All my other points were directed at your toolish and dishonest tactics, not at you personally.
how am i not objective or even misleading?
First you cited the “six assists per game” as proof his mediocrity without providing the key statistical context that it was in 22 minutes a game. Then, when called out, you cited a different set of numbers based on a 66 minute sample size. Literally no one on this board who has the slightest grasp of numbers and who is the slightest bit interested in having an objective, reasonable debate would have done either of those things.
Also he sucked for 66 minutes against top euro competition, u cant take that?
I can take it, but I don’t draw conclusions from such a small sample, because I’m interested in a serious discussion about Rubio’s strengths and weaknesses — not in cherrypicking misleading information to support an uninformed opinion.
Rubio just does not do it right now. 65% FT that’s what he has.
Oh my … you really are clueless about sample sizes. (Must have missed stats class that day?) That 65% you’re citing is based on making 5 of 8 free throws. In the larger (roughly) Spanish League sample size, he’s hitting 80% of his FTs. Maybe the rims in Spain are wider?
I’m not buddha to enlighten you, if u want enlightment i suggest u go to some spiritual site.
Not so good at the language thing, either, I see. Ah well, you get a pass for not being a native speaker. “Enlighten” can also mean “educate” or “make understand.” I would have loved to be educated by an honest, fair anti-Rubio argument if that had been your aim. Nothing you’ve posted in this thread suggests it is.
I don’t want warriors to sign another weak ass euro utube gangsta, ala belinelli.
Well, that’s pretty clear. It’s called “prejudice.” And Belinelli is a horrible comp for Rubio: he was considered a reach at #18, whereas everything I’ve read about about Rubio indicates that he has skills and makeup rare enough that he should go no lower than #2.
People just don’t realize what they have here, and its natural to always look somewhere else.
I think there’s truth to that. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt with US players, often unfairly. At the same time, there have been plenty of foreigners who have acquitted themselves pretty well here: Dirk, Sabonis, Nash, Yao, Gasol, Calderon, Fernandez, to name a few.
Besides I don’t hate Rubio, but to put it in a context, he is 18 and other than couple flashy passes he showed nothing.
Then why do you think so many reputable, experienced scouts think he’s so special?
You seem to think that Rubio is a next Bball Jesus, so I’ll let him enlighten You when he comes over
I never said anything of the sort. I’m excited by his potential, based on what I’ve read and seen of him. I think he’d fit Nellieball like a dream. But I’m always aware of the possibility that an 18 y.o. top prospect, Euro or American, can flame out.
Rubio not going to do it. Maybe not ever, definitely not in a first 3 years.
OK, Karnak. Can you give me the lottery numbers while you’re at it?
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 23, 2009 4:45 AM PDT up reply actions
so let me get this straight
Wait a sec, You never played basketball in Europe, You never watched euroleague and You trying to convince someone that I don’t know what I’m talking about? It’s laughable.
Let’s see, can you tell me who scored most points or assists in euroleague history? Per game? Without looking in Wikipedia?
All I said was that Rubio averaged 6 assists in weak ass euroleague. He actually averaged that in Spanish League, which is a lot weaker than euroleague. How many of euroleague PGs got kicked out of NBA? WHY?
22 minutes is what all players in Europe play on the nightly basis, its a different game.
First 2 years this kid is gonna do plymetrics and lift, otherwise hes gonna be more injury prone than Ginobili. He is not going to be able to carry a team, based on his physique alone. He has narrow shoulders, so he is not going to fill out.
You know why Billups, CP3 and D.WIll are so effective on both ends of the floor, and Rubio is not going to be? Because hes not athletic. Hes speed running down the floor is very mediocre. The only reason everyone hyped him up, is because he played ok against USA in olympics. Name me another player that got drafted to NBA, because of an Olympic game. I think you know him quite well.
You watched him on youtube? now go compare his speed on youtube with someone like D.Rose. NBA guards are going to be licking lips getting career highs scoring against Rubio, same way they do it on Nash. Nash is 6’3 by the way. Rubio is 6’4 so its the same ballpark.
You think 66 minutes on the floor is small sample size? I think it is perfectly fine sample size, enough for me to pray that we don’t draft him, same way I was hoping we didn’t draft Funleavy. At least Funleavy can shoot, Rubio can’t even do that, his form is what they teach kids not to do.
So lets see, Rubio DOES NOT have jump shot, does not change directions fast enough for NBA and is very turnover prone, trying do throw flashy passes. When it works it goes to youtube, when it does not he gets pulled out of the game, and on higher euro level it does not work, hence his minutes and level of production.
In fact, I’d like you to cite some sources, that you so fondly speaking about, where did you read that he has so much potential. Did Phil Jackson say Rubio is gonna be good?
i dont need your passes for native/non native speakers.
from webster:
1archaic : illuminate 2 a: to furnish knowledge to : instruct b: to give spiritual insight to
You choose one meaning , I chose another. The last one applies to your case better in my opinion.
I want us to draft a tall PG that can defend NOW, not in maybe 4 years or never. We have a good team, and defense is what we lacking sorely. Rubio is not going to defend anyone, small sample size or large, regardless. Show me one youtube clip, where Rubio is guarding athletic guard posting him up.
And please, its retarded to dissect my comment 1 sentence by 1 sentence, it does not give cohesive picture of my argument, but whatever, I guess you doing your best.
by farid on Apr 23, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Dude
I respond sentence by sentence not to “dissect” what you wrote so much as to respond to precisely what you wrote, rather than what I think you wrote. I only wish you would extend me the same courtesy.
I admit I know jack shite about the Euroleague; I never said or pretended otherwise. The burden of proof is on you to show that you know something more than jack shite. You still haven’t done so.
Meanwhile, the fact you still haven’t owned up to playing cheap and dishonest with the facts (citing 8 FT attempts as a reasonable sample size? Citing “6 assists” as a poor average without mentioning it was in 22 minutes per game?) shows that you aren’t much interested in anything other than beating your chest and trying to score cheap points.
Since you don’t like me to respond point by point, I’ll take a broader approach: your whole schtick, in its stridency of tone, tendency towards gross oversimplification, and quasi-eugenic fetishizing of athleticism, sounds suspiciously close to the tired “athletic black player / unathletic white player” dialectic that pollutes so much hoops discourse. While one would have to be be blind not to admit a nugget of truth in these views, not to allow for exceptions and nuance is to engage in a kind of benign racism. Just out of curiosity, how does Larry Bird fit into your world view?
You’ve still yet to link to one argument, statistical or scouting-based, that suggests that Rubio doesn’t have what it takes to be a Top 2-3 pick in this draft. I could give you some links, but they’re all the usual suspects: Draftnet, Draftexpress, Chad Ford, et al. I’m still totally open to a reasonable anti-Rubio case, but I’m afraid it’s going to have to come someone a bit smarter, more objective, and less angry-sounding than you.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 23, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
In general farid’s point on athleticism is valid. Derek rose is a great example. But there are many examples of lesser athletes who have dominated the nba. Larry Bird is a good one. Magic was by no means an amazing athlete. But his feel for the game was unparalleled. Barkeley, again was no stromile swift athletically, but he knew the game. Even in more contemporary times, manu who you cited isnt the most athletic, but behind kobe, there isnt a single player I wouldnt want w/ the ball in his hand with 10 seconds to go. (Yes, i’m serious)
Now i realize its a HUGE stretch to put rubio with these players, but consider he’s been on nba radars since he was 13 years old. You dont need to be an athlete to play pg. you need to handle and be smart. Kidd was never that fast, but he ran the break better than anyone in the nba in the last 15 years (similar to magic).
Does it help to be athletic? YES…. but look at monta, he’s 1 of the fastest players in nba and he is a pisspoor point guard, cause he just doesnt have the vision and mentality. It really cant be taught, you’ve either been a point guard your whole life or you havent.
I will agree with farid, he wont have much of an effect initially. He’ll only be 18 and if he was american, probably couldnt declare cause i think he should be a college freshman. but the whole point of draft is not to take who is best day 1 (that might be ty lawson) Its whose gonna be best in 3-5 years.
btw 6 assists in 22 minutes is a GREAT average. I dont know why thats bad. 6 assists is what derek rose averages in 30+ minutes. Thats what chauncey averages in 35 mpg. And thats about what cp3 and deron williams averaged in over 30 mpg in college (which is a weaher league than europe, despite what people want to think)
idk
monta has made some awesome passes…and has shown that he does have vision….i think he just needs to change his mindset from shooting himself to passing….because it is pretty clear to me that HE DOES have vision…he just doesnt take advantage of it all the time…and HE CAN make opportunities for his teammates
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
i agree with losthawk
we should give monta a full year at pg. i think monta is already a hof type player with ability to change mindset, while he already has great court vision, he can break anyone in the league of the dribble and has a mid range jumper. you cant really get better than that . now we just need to get a vet pg. i dont understand still hwo they let baron davis go to get maggete, that was retarde, but whatever..
sleepy :D
This isn't really a great history ...
… of small shooting guards becoming quality point guards.
I wish it weren’t so. I’d love to see Monta become a real PG.
But I’m not prepared to bet on it happening.
Oh Crabdrizzle!
Why hast thou forsaken me? And what can I do do to win back your love?
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 27, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
you are clearly suffering from small man's disease!
by dungeness crabdribble on Apr 27, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha
Could be … I’m only five tennish (but like jae, I rebound like I’m at least 5-11!)
But what can I do to make you happy, Crabdiz? You always seem a little sad and starved for attention on this board. You’ve got a fantastic handle, and can be kind of an amusing read … but I dunno, it kinda seems you’re caught in between roles: not quite patient or clever enough to write interesting posts, not quite annoying enough to drive smart people batty (viz. Goldenboy), not quite a master flame artist like the Great Coma.
Seems like what you could really use is a GSoM makeover. Maybe you can start by asking BloodSweatnDonuts to make you a new webpin? ;-)
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 27, 2009 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Good to see I get under your skin, little man.
by dungeness crabdribble on Apr 27, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha
First you gotta decide whether you want to aspire to be a poor man’s Goldenboy or a homeless man’s Coma. Then I’ll think about granting you “under-skin” status. But keep working at it! ;-)
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 27, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions
you are clearly suffering from small man’s disease!
Oh no! Sleepy is that like the opposite of elephantiasis? I’ve heard of “little man’s complex/syndrome” but small man’s disease sounds much more dangerous….and contagious. I had no idea you poor vertically challenged had your own disease.
Is this what it does to you?
Thing A
1 thing i like about both is....
there passion for the game and character. Both can be leaders in the future. Neither will complaimn about practice or choke a coach
Best case
Warriors get the #1… trade down with OKC and dump one of our big contracts (Maggette or Crawford) on them for there 1st pick (which can be no worst than #7 and one of their other picks). OKC desperately needs a PF/C type and Griffin would be a huge PR boost after a craptacular season. They also have the cap space to take on some salary and getting an solid (potentially elite) PF would make them a contender for the 8th playoff spot. For the Warriors they would shed themselves of another bad contract and allow to pick up two more players an at reasonable rate for the next two seasons.
A Sonics fan without a team.. Though I'm auditioning GS Warriors this season.
Worst Case Scenerio
Warriors trade the #2 pick for steve nash because nellie only has 2 years lefy
I just threw up in my mouth
That’s the most grotesque idea I’ve read here in a long time. That is most definitely the worst case scenario.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
-1
You don’t trade Griffin just to dump a contract. That’s silly. The point of freeing up space would be to geta player of Griffin’s caliber. Ipso facto, henceforth, yadda yadda yadda…
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
-1
If management decides they prefer Rubio, view the two equally or even slightly favor Griffin, dealing Griffin for Rubio while dumping one of our bad contracts would be a great trade. Its not like you’re trading Griffin JUST to get rid of the contract. We add Rubio and free up cap space.
Thing A
In what way does your respone contradict my point?
I said: “You don’t trade Griffin just to dump a contract.”
Then you said: “Its not like you’re trading Griffin JUST to get rid of the contract.”
Hmmmm….
Even more pertinent, where in the original mcwalter44 post (above) does he say anything about trading Griffin and a “bad” contract for Rubio? He doesn’t. And although I sort of agree with you that it would be a good trade (not “great”), it’s irrelevant to my response.
Please improve your reading comprehension skills before you -1 me again.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Supafishal reads good
I said: "You don’t trade Griffin just to dump a contract."
Then you said: "Its not like you’re trading Griffin JUST to get rid of the contract."
I’ll give you another chance to think about that a little more………My point is that you missed the point of the initial point. When you said “you don’t trade Griffin just to dump a contract” you were missing the point that we WOULDN’T be trading him just to get rid of a contract. Ridding ourselves of the contract would be a large bonus, but obviously we’d get much more in the deal. Should we trade Griffin and Maggette for just an expiring contract? No, but that was never brought up (or implied in any way) and thats not what you were initially responding to. Mcwalter44’s post DOES say “trade down.” So either YOU need to improve your reading comprehension skills or you don’t know what “trade down” means. I was using Rubio as an example…obviously that is the MOST ideal situation for a Griffin trade, but if over the next couple months the front office falls in love with Thabeet, Harden, etc. I wouldn’t say that a trade down for any of those players while dumping a bad contract and perhaps picking up another pick or two in the process would be a bad deal at all. You -1’ed mcwalter44 without considering the type of trade he may have been talking about. When we traded up from 3 for C-Webb we gave up 3 future picks and Penny. You can’t tell me it would be a terrible trade if we were able to dump a bad contract, still get a quality rookie and add 1-3 future 1st round picks.
Please improve your reading comprehension skills before insulting mine again.
Thing A
Trading Griffin and Crawford/Maggette
for Rubio + something is way different than trading Griffin and Crawford/Maggette for Thabeet (or Harden) + something. In the first case you are getting a player that many people are arguing could help the Warriors more than Griffin anyway, while simultaneously freeing up cap space. In the second you are trading the consensus #1 pick for essentially another prospect and cap space. Not the same. Had the original post suggested SPECIFICALLY that Griffin for Rubio, etc, was a good idea, I would not have necessarily disagreed. I do tend to respond to what people actually write, not what I interpret their meaning to be.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
well then in your initial response you should have clarified. He said “trade down”….obviously you interpreted his meaning to be trading down lower than 2, when he did not actually write that. He could have meant Rubio, he could have meant Thabeet, he could have meant Stephen Curry or he could’ve meant all of the above. But instead of considering that, you interpreted a very specific meaning and responded only to that meaning. So, no clearly you don’t actually tend to respond to what people actually write.
Thing A
Griffin
The clearest barometer for a team’s success (we’re talking about wins and losses) is how well it out-rebounds its opponents. Rebounding is a way to extend your teams offensive output. The better you rebound, the more shots you have at scoring. The W’s have a good amount of scorers (Ellis, Jackson, Maggette, etc.), but a dearth of good rebounders. The NBA advertises guard play because it’s entertaining and generates tons of revenue, but quality bigs are what drive championship teams.
by fuller over bryant on Apr 22, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions
Rubio
For those who love rebounders, I did too, until I got to watch Danny Fortson and Troy Murphy gobble them up. I’m not saying Griffin is in the same league as those two, but I am saying that I’m NOT sure Griffin’s game will be anything more than solid. I remember discussing Diagou in some of the same terms when it came to dominating in the paint. I have a better sense Rubio will do well in the NBA.
I think court vision and passing skills are somthing that translates well from minor leagues to the NBA. Remember Kidd at Cal? You knew he would be special. Didn’t have the best shot but did a lot of the same things Rubio is known for.
If I’m GM and have a shot at either, I take Rubio and pair him with Jackson/Morrow/Bellineli in the backcourt. Then I use Ellis in trade to make happen some of the other things most of us around here agree on. If you aren’t ready to bet the farm on Rubio now, then hold on to Ellis another year before pulling the trigger.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
i agree with your point on rubio> griffin
but griffin is much more athletic than all the names you mentioned. A better comparison might be dejaun blair or tyler hansborough. College beasts in the paint…. Not athletic enough to do it on anyone in the nba.
ya
hansborough is going to be garbage in the nba
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
See....
I think everybody is talking about how he’s going to be garbage, and I think it’s the reverse of “over hype”. He’ll play. Sure, he may never be a “top player on a championship team.” But he’ll get gobbled up by the Spurs next year at the end of the draft (or maybe the lottery the way they’ve been looking), and he’ll be playing for NBA championships as a quality “been to the big dance” role player who knows his job and does it well. You’ll see. He’s over-underhyped.
"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
AB1=TK
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 22, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
hes kurz 2.0
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Only if by 2.0 you mean complete and total upgrade, that the 2.0 release does many, many things that the original version didn’t. Their respective performances in college don’t suggest that Hansbrough is anything like Kurz, save that they’re both white and tall.
Honestly, the level of ‘analysis’ that people do to find a Hansbrough comparison is embarrassing. Let’s see. He’s white and…
The BPA is Griffin
On other news I’m hearing that Wall’s camp is checking into the 09’ Draft. If Wall is there he can easily contend for #1.
Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or John Wall. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
Yea, and I think its UNC
But from what I’ve heard on the radio is that they are looking into it if it is a possibility, and even then I’m not sure if he’ll declare.
Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or John Wall. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
It's not UNC.
Raleigh basketball star John Wall said he plans to trim his list of potential colleges to three or four by Monday.
He currently has seven schools on his list – N.C. State, Duke, Baylor, Kansas, Miami, Kentucky and Memphis.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/story/678842.html
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he's going to kentucky
he wants to play for calipari… and considering hes very similar to derek rose, why not. Calipari is only coach who is straight about the its ok to come for 1 year
Heard it on the Radio
But, Draft Express has an article about it:
John Wall’s recruiting camp should draft another plan
Gary Parris of CBS Sportsline pens a very blunt assessment of John Wall’s apparent decision to not even inquire about his potential NBA draft eligibility.
John Wall must try to enter the NBA Draft.
That’s not an opinion but a request to all who insist they care about the 19-year-old phenom, to the men and women who swear they have Wall’s best interests at heart. If the nation’s top-rated high school point guard can get in June’s draft, he’s good enough to be selected as high as second and marketable enough to receive sizable endorsement contracts, all of which could easily total 15 million guaranteed dollars (and perhaps much, much more). By my estimation, that’s a lot of money.
So the people who claim to want what’s best for Wall should acknowledge as much and convince him to declare for the draft before Sunday’s deadline.
If the NBA rejects Wall’s application, fine, he can go to college.
Parris goes into quite a bit of depth explaining why he thinks Wall and his camp are acting foolishly. He even goes a lot further than that, if you read between the lines, echoing the same thoughts many in basketball circles have expressed, that there is something a bit strange going on.
…That’s why the people advising Wall (like Brian Clifton, the former agent turned AAU coach) are foolish to not advise Wall to at least try to enter the draft. That, or they have ulterior motives and need him to go to college — perhaps even a specific college — for a year for some reason that is unclear (but feel free to speculate as you wish). There is no in-between. Clifton and the people of influence are either foolish or they have some vested interest in Wall enrolling in college.
What’s stranger is that even the NBA Board of Governors, in a meeting last week, has been forced to discuss the possibility that Wall might have a case, at least according to one NBA source with knowledge of the conversation.
"The topic of whether Wall is eligible or not came up in the Board of Governors meeting last week," the source told us. "They discussed that the language in the Collective Bargaining Agreement is ambiguous about 5th year prep players, and that it would make for an interesting debate that might be difficult to fight if it indeed came up. The thing is, Wall hasn’t tried to put his name in yet, so it’s really not clear if it would come to that. Regardless, the board knows they need to clear up the language of the rule so it doesn’t become a problem moving forward."
Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or John Wall. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
Right.
And the whole point of that OP-ED piece is that Wall’s stated decision NOT to try to test his NBA eligibility is unwise.
We also had a chance to speak with Wall about the report on ESPN.com that he is trying to figure out whether he is eligible for this year’s NBA draft. He emphatically dismissed those rumors, saying you can "throw that out," explaining that he promised his father he will attend college for at least a year, and that he doesn’t "want to break that," promise.
As one of the schools that is most actively recruiting Wall informed us, he is still not eligible for college at this point. Wall stated that he will take the SAT on "May 4th" and then the ACT as well, and that he is on course to graduate on "May 28th." He said he took an "extra math class and extra science…just in case."
Wall said that the NBA draft discussion and whether or not he’s even eligible is something that "just popped up…the other day" and that he hasn’t had a chance to talk to his mother about it yet. He says that he discussed the matter with his AAU coach (Brian Clifton, who we quoted yesterday) but that they "decided we’re just going to throw it out the way…we’re not going to look into it."
When pressed and asked whether the lure of being the #1 overall pick would not be enough to sway him, Wall smiled and said "I don’t think so. It’s tough. I’m going to just say no because I haven’t talked to my parents and my coach yet, but as of right now, its no."
Naturally, I’d love to see him declare, but as far as I can tell, it’s pure conjecture to suggest that he’s “checking into the draft.”
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey don't shoot the messenger
Just going what I heard from. Still hasn’t decided yet so anything’s possible I guess. I presumed Rubio was going to be in the 10’ draft (and 99.9% of others), but look where he is now.
Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or John Wall. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
No biggie
Not shooting, just scolding. Even as lowly posters, I think we all have a little responsibility to try not to spread sourceless rumors. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Wall declared — or at least looked into his eligibility — but so far there’s been nothing of substance to suggest he’s considering it.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 22, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Ricky
If the euro league want us to buy him out, we give them Brandan Wright. lol
by warriorfan4life on Apr 22, 2009 4:23 PM PDT reply actions
Usually they are
But not this soon. Workouts, Camps, Interviews, etc haven’t been checked out yet. But as of now most Mocks I’ve seen have us taking BJ lol.
Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or John Wall. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
I hope that is right and we get Jennings. I know a lot of people around here are down on him, but I think he will be good if not great.
If we luck out and get the #1 or #2 pick we get Rubio, if we stay where we are (#7)hopefully Jennings will be there. Either way, we get a potential star PG.
i keep seeing tyreke evans
another combo guard who turns it over alot. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
u can assume griffin and rubio will be top 5
and tyler hansborough will not
The problem with trading ...
Let me start by saying that I think Griffen is probably BPA, but Ricky clearly fits out needs better.
So the question is, if we draft Griff, what trade do we make?
One has to assume Wright would be the cornerstone of any trade we make. He has value, but he’s not a core player for us. (Randolph is our future three, and adding Griff and subrtacting Beans doesn’t necessarily make us better). So the question becomes, what sort of PG can you get for Wright?
And don’t talk about Crawford as a throw in. Here’s a hint: when you want a player to exercise his option to walk away, he’s not a player who adds value in a trade. Jackson, maybe … but Crawford, no way.
To make sense for this team, the player needs to be youngish. It’s pointless to trade for, say, Chauncy Billups – we’ll just need a PG again in a year or two. And I like Chauncy.
So we’re looking at players like Telfair or Ridnour, optimistically. Those guys have shown more than Wright, but it’s a big-for-small trade. Can you get one of those guys for Wright? Maybe. You probably can’t get Raymond Felton or Mo Williams.
So the question becomes, which team makes you happier?
And I have to say, I lean towards drafting Ricky. To me, the upgrade at the PG spot drafting Ricky is a lot bigger than the combined upgrade at the PF and PG spot with Griffen and anybody we’re likely to get for Wright.
I mean, as it is, Griff takes Wright’s minutes, and pushes Randolph to the three, where he takes some of Jackson’s and Maggs’ minutes. In other words, players of real value are getting fewer minutes to make room for the new guy. And while Ridnour or Telfair or somebody along those lines would displace Watson’s minutes, it’s not so meaningful an upgrade.
On the other hand, Ricky displaces CJ Watson and Jamal Crawford, and makes it easier to put our best players on the floor. Ricky, particularly if he can play defense at all, solves our team balance problems, and I’m not sure whomever we could trade Wright for would.
Players who could be quality starters on a playoff team are hard to acquire. I’m not sure we could get one at PG without giving up enough big-man talent so that Griff might not be that much of an upgrade.
I was just going to write something like this
but what I think your missing is BW gets thrown in the trade sure but Monta at this point is the real trade bait. I don’t know what that would get us around the league but I would be willing to look at trading them both (if we get Griffin) for a high draft pick and THEN get the best PG out there. We would be real young but would have a hell of a core.
For all of you who keep saying we should get Boozer well in Griffin we would have that.
For all of you who keep saying that we should follow the Trail Blazers mantra we would have that too.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
+1/2
I’m with you on the draft Griffin and trade Wright (And i’m a huge Wright fan too). It is undeniable that Randolph has the lead in the starting PF battle between the two. I think Wright could still be a player in the league in the likeness of LMA. Both are good, young PF’s, who disappear at times and don’t rebound quite as much as you’d like. I know their styles are different, i’m just talking about their production.
Drafting and trading should be dependent on where we draft imo. If we get #1, draft Griffin and either (a) keep him or (b) draft him and trade him to a team with the pieces you want. What if we get the #1 and SAC gets #2? Of course they’re going to want Rubio to lead their young core of players. Would they really be willing to take on a bad contract and give up another young piece to add to a front court that already has Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson and Donte Greene (hybrid, i know)? I think that Griffin is a significant upgrade over all three of those players, but I think the Kings would be just as happy just keeping their core together and take the undisputed #2 pick. Sometimes trading partners just don’t match up.
The way I would go with a trade is to explore late lotto teams-mid 1st round teams that want to give up their pick altogether. You can spend up to $3 Million to buy a draft pick IIRC. Now i know the Warriors rarely, if ever have done this, but this is exactly the kind of thing Kevin Pritchard and Sam Presti do. They capitalize on a buyers market. I think that since the Warriors seem to be doing better than most of the teams in the NBA, financially speaking—it’s a move that should be explored.
If not this scenario then i’d try and see who would give up an 8-14 pick for Brandan Wright. Anything out of the lotto for Wright (2007, 8th overall) would be a waste. Looking at those teams, it looks like possible trade partners could be New York (8th overall), Milwaukee (10th overall), Charlotte (12th overall), Indiana (13th overall). At this spot I would be fine with taking a PG. 7th seems too high for all the second tier PG prospects out there. Eric Maynor, Ty Lawson, Jonny Flynn, Tyreke Evans, or Jrue Holiday would be good decent value picks here.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
in the event we won griffin....
why not keep wright? Hes more a backup pf anyway. Theres no garentee griffin will pop in and become a 35 minute 20/10 guy in next year or 2, and we project randolph as a 3 anyway…. U can never have enough size.
We should try and move maggette or buike (superflous to have both and id say obviously keep buike). And god forbid we’d have 4 or 5 players who can legitimately play power forward (or center). We can always move wright later, but i just dunno how much value he will garner now
by tafkasam on Apr 23, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Where does our PG come from?
The whole point of the trade is to address the team-balance issues, since we have a glaring hole on the team that drafting Griff doesn’t fill.
Do you think you can get a decent PG for Maggs or Buike? I don’t. I think they’ll bring less back in a trade – right now – than Wright will.
btw on trade
not necessarily…. farther down we trade, less we have to pay the player. If player projects better than wright i saw we take him. Someone like terrance williams, dejaun blair whoever may project more to be a 14-20th pick. if we think they r gonna be better than b wright, y not pull the trigger? We can admit it might have been a waste to trade wright 8th but as long as he’s moved for some1 over better value to the team who cares where they were picked
Slotted salaries
There really isn’t that dramatic a difference between picks outside of the top 5 that are still first rounders. It’s less than a million per year difference between #7 overall and #16, and the Warriors are dead cap-wise until 2011-2012 anyway.
A million here, a million there, pretty soon we’re talking about real money.
The cap is not the only concern. The luxury tax seems to be more inhibiting for teams than the tax. Given the extents that teams go through to stay under the lux tax, that million can be the difference between taking a chance on an NBDL guy or keeping a promising second rounder and letting them walk because they’re going to cost the team far more money if they push the team into tax space. The dollar for dollar penalty is an issue, but more of an issue is one dollar over and you do not receive the share of tax revenue, which can be in the neighborhood of $10mil.
I don't love Thabeet, but
One lost rebound/foul/fall has never hurt a players reputation so much. The guy’s value was skyrocketing until that play and suddenly he’s soft and clumsy.
Thing A
it wasnt that 1 play....
it was that whole game. 6-7 Blair OWNED HIM
blair 38 mins, 22 pts, 23 rebounds, 10-17 fg, 1 block
thabeet 23 mins, 5 pts, 4 rebounds, 1-5 fg, 2 blocks
1 whole game?
oh nevermind I take it all back then. Thats obviously a suitable sample size. Clearly, no good NBA players were ever outplayed in college.
Thing A
Thabeet
IS soft and clumsy. Seems like a really nice, smart kid. But you need an edge to be a shot-blocker in the NBA. Being 7-3 makes you a target. Everyone wants to posterize you. Unless he can summon some inner Rodman, he will quickly fade out of the league. I pray we don’t pick him.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Thabeet is DeSagana Diop
No better, no worse. If you want a difference making defensive guy who can rebound OK and can’t score a lick, then he’s your guy.
It's easy
Diop is a good defensive player (and a far better rebounder right now than Thabeet has shown thus far) whose minutes are limited because of a lackluster offensive game.
Mutombo was worlds better on offense in his prime than either Diop or Thabeet. Of course, Hasheem can become that type of guy, but a person as raw (with as mediocre instincts on that side of the ball as Thabeet, particularly) as him rarely turns that switch on.
he is kinda eligible
the nba would have to talk about it, but most analysts say that they would let him
but he has said multiple times he wants to go a year in college…even last week
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
With The Warriors Karma??
The Warriors getting good karma in the draft is such a ridiculous pipe dream, that it isn’t worth talking about..Cohan has the worst karma in the world and the last time I looked, he still owned the team, so this discussion is totally useless..
Tyreke Evans
If the idiots get Tyreke Evans at whatever spot, this kid is a stud..He is a great defender and understands the PG position..He would be a great fit, but of course the idiots will blow the pick as they usually do..
Tyreke Evans Will Be Better Than Rickie Euro!!
I would take Evans over the euro any day..Remember where you heard this, Tyreke will be a better NBA player..
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