Has Turiaf made Biedrins expendable?
by gorillas on Apr 4, 2009 12:32 PM PDT
56 comments
I honestly hate to say this, because I am a huge Biedrins fan--but I would be lying if I said that the question hasn't lingered in my head during the past few weeks.
It's no lie that Biedrins has had a very productive season this year averaging a double-double and doing other things off the ball. However, not to take away anything from him...you have to also consider the fact that his rebounding statistics are slightly weighted, part of the reason being that nobody else on our team in the beginning of the season rebounded the ball.
But, the real problem I wanted to address though is the fact that Beans' is a very one-dimensional player right now, so to speak. With the absence of a true point guard to deliver him the ball, it's very difficult for him to create his own shot. I know that he's only 23, but at times I question how high Biedrins' ceiling really is...
On the other hand, Turiaf has that mid-range jumper that has become pretty reliable this season and I think that it's widely known that he has great interior presence on both the offensive and defensive end. The only thing that Turiaf needs to work on is rebounding--but I think that he has addressed that problem and is definitely improving upon that progressively. One thing I noticed about Turiaf is that he plays better when he gets more playing time. He becomes more effective playing 30-35 minutes, rather than 15-20 minutes.
The advantage to having Turiaf on the floor opposed to Biedrins is his size and bulk. If we're looking into the future of having a front court composed of Randolph, Wright, and Biedrins...we would be surrendering way to much space in the paint. Guys like Millsap, Maxiell, Howard etc. would literally kill us. It would be much more efficient if we had both Turiaf and Randolph playing side by side for the majority of the time. I think that they compliment each other well.
Unfortunately, I'm not so sure that a front court of Wright, Randolph, and Turiaf will work out in the future either. I feel like that's just too many players that are only capable of doing similar things. Unless Randolph expands his game and becomes more of a point 3 than a 4. But even so, Nellie would never allow 3 "big" men on the court at the same time. Randolph and Turiaf are 'must-keeps'...that leaves Wright out of the mix.
This off-season will be interesting and I think that we obviously need to make some moves, but we also need to keep our core together.
Players we 'need' to keep: Randolph, Morrow, Ellis, Turiaf
Players we should keep: Jackson, Azubuike
Players we could move: Crawford, Wright, Watson, Biedrins
Players we should move: Maggette, Belinelli (I love him, but there's just no room)
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Oh and has anyone given thought to trading for Sergio Rodriguez?
Gerald Madkins
by gorillas on Apr 4, 2009 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
it was mentioned. the word is that he’s one of those “all sizzle, no steak” guys. tough to say because he doesn’t play, but i’d guess that if he were the real deal, he’d find a way to get some pt.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Apr 4, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see what you mean
its just that ive been interested in eric maynor from VCU and his nbadraft.net comparison is sergio rodriguez…but who knows how accurate that is
Gerald Madkins
by gorillas on Apr 4, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, i do like those comparisons they’re fun but that’s not to say they’re particularly accurate. maynor would probably be a bit high for us at the 7/8 pick, but if we traded down, he’s worth looking at.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Apr 4, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
stupid strikethroughs. sorry, i won’t use dashes to make points anymore, commas it is.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Apr 4, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think guys like Millsap, Maxiel and Howard would "literally kill us". Murder isn't really appropriate.
by jnormous on Apr 4, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm
??
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Apr 5, 2009 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
first they'll kill us then they'll score at will?
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 5, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biedrins would be hard to move
But I see your point. Definitely agree on Turiaf being way more effective the more time he plays.
by ryogahibiki on Apr 4, 2009 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I agree. In terms of his contract, most teams would probably be turned off. However, there are many many teams that are interested in Biedrins and would be willing to take on his contract. George Karl for example. and remember, the pistons offered us Billups for Biedrins straight up.
Gerald Madkins
by gorillas on Apr 4, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
I would’ve done that in a heartbeat.
by Andrew7744 on Apr 4, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course Karl would make that trade
exp’d NBA people never trade big for small, plus look at ages etc.
we made that mistake already this year, now we have barely 4 bigs and we’re going to trade one for an guard?
by hardcore on Apr 4, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the pistons offered us Billups for Biedrins straight up.
That would have been a dumb move for the Warriors.
Kelenna is mine...;>
Life is too short, give everyone a smile or a hug.
by girltothemax on Apr 6, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beans has better hands
He has great hands to catch and lay the ball in.
But I think this has to do with him being out for such a long time – we forget how good he can be. Now, bosh for beans? :)
by mosdl on Apr 4, 2009 12:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
nope
because finally W’s got luxury for less or more quality (i’d say really promissing) 4 big men rotation (remember Croshere or Mbenga) and you already want to trade one of them
NBA season is 82×48 minutes
Turiaf + Biedrins on the court at the same time is best PF C tandem i’ve seen 4 W’s
30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ
by Lat We N Trash on Apr 4, 2009 1:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
turiaf is a very good backup, but not much more. i don’t want us to throw away depth unless we get something really valuable back. biedrins can outrebound turiaf so thoroughly that to say that turiaf made him expendable is understating that. no one is asking biedrins to carry the offense, but he CAN carry the rebounding load and when he and randolph are on the court together, well, we suddenly have two very good rebounders on the floor at once. it’s nice to see.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Apr 4, 2009 1:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree with that
Turiaf is a shot blocker, Andris is the rebounder. If you have two guys trying to block the shot, that leaves the smalls to rebound. That usually results in a dunk by the opposite team with the weak side wide open.
by warriOs on Apr 6, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biedrins expendable?
No way. Available in the right trade? Yes.
Turiaf is too poor a rebounder to be the answer at center. He does a lot of things well and it’s nice to have a capable back-up for Andris that is an actual big-man, but let’s not get too excited just because he is doing an admirable job at the moment.
I’m excited to see Biedrins, Randolph, Turiaf and Wright as our rotation up front next year. That is more depth than we have had at PF/C than I can remember. A good balance of skill-sets as well
Strengths
Andris – Rebounding, pick and roll, efficient scorer
Turiaf – Shot blocking, post defense, Mid range jump shot
Randolph – Rebounding, shot blocking, ball handling (for a big)
Wright – Efficient inside scoring, offensive rebounding
Could make for some interesting combinations.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Apr 4, 2009 1:36 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I’m excited to see Biedrins, Randolph, Turiaf and Wright as our rotation up front next year.
Yeah, and we need to keep them all since one will always be hurt. four bigs is not too many to carry.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 4, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Warriors have been somewhat more effective on defense with Biedrins in the game. It is probably because of his superior rebounding. While teams shoot slightly better against the Biedrins team, they get fewer 2nd chance points with him in the game.
It’s nice to have a backup center. Let’s not forget how difficult it would be to replace that position were we to lose either Biedrins or Turiaf. We’d immediately return to a gimmick team using a tweener forward in the role much of the time.
by jae on Apr 4, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
word, home slice.
…you have to also consider the fact that his rebounding statistics are slightly weighted, part of the reason being that nobody else on our team in the beginning of the season rebounded the ball.
well, what does that say about turiaf’s 4.6rpg/21.1 mpg? it certainly comes nowhere close to biedrins production.
introducing the teensey-tiniest, itty-bitty backcourt in nba history: monta ellis and brandon jennings! 80-win season here we come!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Apr 4, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the reason why his stats are like that
is because ronny didnt play as well with limited playing time in the beginning of the season. compare his rebounding stats now to the beginning of the season and it has improved a good amount.
Gerald Madkins
by gorillas on Apr 4, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned that he has become slightly more expendable...
and immediately got flamed to shreds. Obviously we don’t want to move Beans, but if you could say, trade him packaged with Crawford or Maggette and maybe Beli or CJ for someone like Bosh or (gasp) Amare then I would be OK with letting him go. Before Randolph and Wright (if he could stay healthy) stepped up, we NEEDED Beans to collect those boards, but now we have a few good rebounders and Andris’ importance to the team is drastically lessened.
by FishStix on Apr 4, 2009 1:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Before Randolph and Wright (if he could stay healthy) stepped up, we NEEDED Beans to collect those boards, but now we have a few good rebounders and Andris’ importance to the team is drastically lessened.
I don’t know about that. Andris and Randolph are the only guys in the frontcourt that I’d call “good” rebounders. If you played Turiaf and Wright together that would not be a strong rebounding combination at all. I’ll admit that the increase in depth makes making a trade easier but we shouldn’t take his skills for granted. If we trade him we’d better get good value in return.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Apr 4, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wouldn't
say that Biedrins is expendable. I think he’s still valuable in my eyes for his rebounding and his defense which continues to improve.
Turiaf really has become an instant fan favorite. He’s a great player, legit starter in the league. I think another one of his strengths to go along with olympicmike’s list is Turiaf’s passing. The guy always seems to look for the open man. He’s made a lot of sweet passes the last few games.
by disguy on Apr 4, 2009 1:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
on the flip side
Turiaf’s going to be an attractive trade piece himself, he’s added to his resume and is a productive rotation player with a relatively inexpensive contract
by hardcore on Apr 4, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
People are forgetting how good Biedrins is. Turiaf is useful and super-likeable, and I’m glad we’ve got him, but he’s a real stretch as a long-term starter… he fouls too much to play a reliable 30-35 minutes a game, and his rebounding is not an asset.
Biedrins is no by means untouchable, and we should move him if we can upgrade by doing so. But we shouldn’t move him because we think Turiaf can just take his place. He can’t.
by onlxn on Apr 4, 2009 2:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The answer to your question is....
no. Turiaf is a very nice backup center. Not much more than that. I’m sure Phil Jackson knew what he was doing not giving him 30-35 minutes per game, and there’s a reason that Biedrins gets 10 mil while Turiaf gets 4
by ZaMzAm FiRe on Apr 4, 2009 2:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No...
Turiaf got playing time on a championship calibur team. Don Nelson says he’s the “best backup center in the league,” suggesting that he could start and compete well with starting centers (and he does and has). If we could get an upgrade at another position where we’re weak, someone near or at all-star level we should probably take that if Biedrins is what they’re asking and we don’t have other options.
by Naticus on Apr 5, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biedrins is very limited, without a medium range game at all. A medium range jump shot is very important for unclogging the middle. For this reason, I think Turiaf compliments the emerging AR better, because he can play more at the top of the key, and allow the slashers to go to the hole more.
by mayelamingi on Apr 4, 2009 8:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t heard Turiaf say anything about Randolph one way or the other.
by jae on Apr 4, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would jump all over the opportunity to package Biedrins and Beli or Crawford or Magette, and get another quality Big.
by mayelamingi on Apr 4, 2009 8:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
and get another quality Big.
We got a quality big in Rudolf, if we get another we won’t be able to afford them both eventually. Better to keep the four bigs we got for another year and see how it plays out . We could luck into Griffin in the draft or we might be able to get a better point guard instead but now is not the time to panic.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 4, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Turiaf is great
as a $4m/year backup C. He’s a great energy guy, and he gets paid a lot less than stiffs like Gadzuric. However, I think he plays better when he’s unleashed on the court, and not constantly mindful of getting into foul trouble, as he seems to have when Biedrins has been out.
by markdash on Apr 4, 2009 9:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
in a word
NO
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Apr 5, 2009 9:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
only if packaged for superstar big
bosh or amar’e
by Warriorfan on Apr 5, 2009 1:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ellis is the best piece to move.
Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Apr 5, 2009 10:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
conditional YES
Yes, only if we can get a package that includes another legitimate 5.
Ellis to the RIM!
Monta for the win?! YES!
by XIAOXIAO on Apr 6, 2009 12:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Eating words
I think there are going to be a few peeps eating their words about Beans. He’s going to be special. He’s a Euro, they always take time to develop. If we can get a decent point guard that can give him feeds I can see him averaging 18-20 a game, add to that 12+ boards and he is a commodity we can’t do without. He’s only 23. And I know we’re notorious for disgracefully bad contracts, but I can see an upshoot with both him and Monta in the long term. I don’t think there’s much chance we’re moving Maggette, so if he can keep coming off the bench, you start with Beans, Monta, Stevie J, Randolph and a decent point guard we’ll get in the off-season (I’m hoping).
Have Ronnie off the bench and hope for some development in Jermareo Davidson.
I think Brandan Wright is the expendable one here.
As was alluded, there are too many blokes who do the same thing.
The good thing about these injuries we’ve had this season is it has revealled we have some depth in Morrow, Azu, Bellinelli and those types. Again, a bit of a back court clog. and we might have to move one of them, but I think if we can get everyone on the court at the same time we can at least make the play offs.
Maybe I’m right, maybe I’m wrong, but I’m in the Biedrins fan club.
by Timbug's Aussie Cousin on Apr 6, 2009 1:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
I think the Biedrins doubters on this board — and there are a fair number — have pretty much done their word-eating and word-choking. Biedrins is already a Top 5-10 NBA Center.
Still, I think you’re probably overstating the height of his ceiling. Yeah, he’s improved in each of his five NBA seasons; but by age 23, NBA players, Euro and Yank alike, do start to plateau. At a certain point, players are what they are, and I suspect AB is getting close to that point. Injuries aside, his per minute numbers from this season are really only a hair better than those from last season (and his plus-minus has been a lot worse). Expecting 18-20 ppg going forward seems a bit unrealistic to me, especially given this team’s firepower at other positions. But that’s not to say 14/12, while shooting 55-60% from the floor, isn’t a huge plus for our team. (In answer to the thread question: no, unless we’re getting or better value in return, which is highly unlikely).
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 6, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve been trying to think about this from a much more simple perspective. How many teams have improved by trading away their starting center? It happens, but off the top of my head, it seems more common that it doesn’t work out.
by jae on Apr 6, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno 2
I think the Biedrins doubters on this board — and there are a fair number — have pretty much done their word-eating and word-choking
yeah -pretty fair number -while some cases remind me something religious fanaticism alike :)
Expecting 18-20 ppg going forward seems a bit unrealistic to me
i’d say 18-20 maybe is pretty big number for a W’s C but you never know what you can expect if W’s would get good PG
30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ
by Lat We N Trash on Apr 7, 2009 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing Turiaf instead of Beidrins is a MAJOR downgrade
Take a look at their per/36 min stats at Basketball reference. This should equalize the difference between the amount of PT they get.
Rebounds: 13.7 compared to 7.9 for Biedrins. (And if you’re going to say that Beans’ numbers are inflated because of the team, then doesn’t the same go for Turiaf?) Beans is a MUCH better rebounder.
Shooting percentage: .575 compared to .520 for Beans. Biedrins is a highly efficient scorer. Turiaf, not so much.
What about shots? For all the talk about Turiaf’s reliable mid-range jumper, he actually takes fewer shots per 36 minutes than Biedrins does. So not only is he a less efficient scorer, but he shoots less, too.
To be fair, Turiaf is a better shot-blocker, and he might be a better defender against “power” big men (although Bierins is clearly much better against most players).
Biedrins for Billups? Billups is 33, so one shouldn’t expect more than another year or two out of him with high productivity. He doesn’t seem to have hit a major downslope yet, but you have to imagine it’s not too far away at this point.
Biedrins actually has a very reasonable contract for what he provides, in part because it’s a flat deal. It doesn’t have the built-in maximum-allowable raises which are a big part of what made Jason Richardson’s and Antwan Jamison’s contracts such a problem. Mullin gets a lot of grief on these boards, but negotiating a deal without those raises should be a major feather in his cap.
by Ronaldinho on Apr 6, 2009 12:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One little thing...
To be fair, Turiaf is a better shot-blocker, and he might be a better defender against "power" big men (although Bierins is clearly much better against most players).
I’m as big a fan of Andris as there is (I think) but I don’t think this is accurate. Defensive rebounding is a big part of defense so I still give the edge to Andris but when it comes to simply defending your man Turiaf is better. Andris allows his opponents to shoot an eFG% of 55.7%. Turiaf allows 51.8% when he plays center and 47.5% when he plays PF. The biggest knock on Ronny’s man defense is that he fouls way too much but Andris has some issues in that department too.
I agree (as stated above) that Andris is a much better player but I think you are overstating his defense when you say he is “clearly much better against most players” than Turiaf.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Apr 6, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
of course playing turiaf instead of biedrins is a downgrade, but what if we were to get an all star caliber player for biedrins…would you do it then?
Gerald Madkins
by gorillas on Apr 6, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
its essentially all about weighing out options
Gerald Madkins
by gorillas on Apr 6, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Turiaf is more valuable WITH Biedrins
They are a great tandem at C. I think people have forgotten how good Biedrins is, especially at his age. He’s going to continue to develop, so I would be patient. I think next season we will be running more plays for him and his scoring average should go up a little. He’s going to continue to get bigger, so his defensive presence will be better. Everything about him will be better. What makes him so great is that he has a great backup in Turiaf. An energy guy who comes in, defends well for his size, blocks shots at an elite level, and gives Biedrins the needed rest.
Let’s also not forget that if Turiaf is pretty banged up right now. There’s no way that Turiaf could survive playing the starting C role because of the way he plays. He is the perfect backup/fill-in C/PF but no replacement for a legitimate C (soon to be All-Star) in Bierins.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 6, 2009 1:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
SO WHAT'S THE TRADE THEN????
Ok, so we use Turi as our starting centre, who do we trade Biedrins for?????
by Timbug's Aussie Cousin on Apr 6, 2009 5:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more!
Turiaf is more valuable WITH Biedrins
They are a great tandem at C. I think people have forgotten how good Biedrins is, especially at his age. He’s going to continue to develop, so I would be patient. I think next season we will be running more plays for him and his scoring average should go up a little. He’s going to continue to get bigger, so his defensive presence will be better. Everything about him will be better. What makes him so great is that he has a great backup in Turiaf. An energy guy who comes in, defends well for his size, blocks shots at an elite level, and gives Biedrins the needed rest.—-
That’s what Turiaf is, a back up!!
by Timbug's Aussie Cousin on Apr 6, 2009 6:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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