The Case for Jrue Holiday
by fremontfan1 on May 27, 2009 9:02 PM PDT
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PrintThis years draft is definetly weak, and the difference between the fourth and tenth pick is marginal. I think we need to draft on need this year, as there are some places we are in desperate need of help. We need to move Monta back to the 2 because that is where he is most effective. On the defensive end, he is unable to effectively gaurd larger SG's. So, as I am sure you all already know, we need a pass first Point that can defend the two.
Jennings is undersized and no good defensively. Baron's contract would make bringing him back unrealistic. Ricky Rubio's agent is Fegan, and he is probably gone by the 7th pick. Holiday, who will probably be still on the board by the time we are up has the size Jennings doesn't have, he's 6-4. He is also a good defender, good passer, and, according to Draft Express, can defend multiple positions meaning the 2. He is perfect!
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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did you just agree with yourself?
by gogoldenbears on May 27, 2009 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
duh
if his draft express profile makes him seem like a good player—he must be great and perfect for our team! sleepy, didn’t you know draftexpress is the preferred method of communication from the basketball gods to us mere mortals?
by gogoldenbears on May 27, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
the counter counter argument
2 warrior legends:
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/tyreke-evans
To sum it all up
what we need, pass first point, good size, ability to defend 2
I agree, but from the clips i've seen...
holiday seems like a shoot first point gaurd. He seems like he can make the pass, but with most rooks he seems to be obsessed with having the ball in his hands and scoring. If we dont draft out of necessity, we need to trade for an impact point gaurd using our pick and some pieces. Jennings, holiday ect. will not have much of a profound impact for us next season. Im not too high on jennings as it is, but it at least seemed like he could pass a bit.
But hey, maybe its just the youtube clips. When people put together mixes, its usually the most exciting stuff people can find…ie…tons of scoring.
He didn’t play PG in college, he played shooting guard because Collison’s a senior. He averaged 5.5 assists/40min, which is pretty spiffy for a guy playing off-guard in college. And if 10.6 FGA/40min seems like alot of “having the ball in his hands and scoring” to you, keep in mind that he played on a UCLA team that had absolutely no go-to scorers.
The reason why I’m psyched about Holiday is that he’s one of the more complete players in the draft. I really don’t know whether or not he will be able to guard NBA shooting guards well. But I’ll bet he’ll be able to guard NBA point guards better than anyone else in this draft, Rubio included.
Plus he can rebound. Plus he can actually play PG. The only real knock on him is his jumper, which is something that can be worked on.
With some other guys in our draft range, I see high bust potential. Jennings hasn’t really shown much in Europe, media hype aside, that tells me he’ll be able to translate all his flash to the NBA level. I can see every PG in the league abusing Curry on the defensive end. DeRozan could end up being nothing more than the next James Flight White. With Jrue Holiday, we’d be getting someone who has the best shot of being a solid NBA starting PG.
"We Deserve"
ive been saying this all along
he is the best option in the draft for us after rubio and griff
and his recent interview with draft express makes me want him on our team even more….sounds like a dream player to play along side monta
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
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nelson was converted to pg once he got to the league
jrue was a pg at h.s. and projected to be UCLA’s pg if collison hadn’t stayed. the point is that jrue is a natural pg, not forced to become one like nelson. WE NEED TO GET THIS KID, he can help our perimeter d, which is the weakest part of our defense.
How confident is everyone that he can actually guard 2’s with Ellis on the PG? If he’s only 6’3 185…it might be a stretch. If he isn’t actually big enough to guard 2’s, his size shouldn’t be much of a factor because we’ll expect him (or another PG we draft/acquire) to guard the 1.
exactly
isn’t monta listed at around the same size? ESPN lists them at exactly the same size. i guess jrue has a supposedly larger wingspan but he also lacks great quickness. there is nothing definitive besides a couple lines on nbadraft.net and draftexpress that tell us that he can guard SGs in the NBA. its total speculation. i want to read gsw.raiders’ scouting report on him and read about the predraft camps first.
i think a lot of people are thinking because he is ‘listed’ at a size that may or may not be larger than monta and supposedly plays good defense that he will be able to guard SGs.
by gogoldenbears on May 28, 2009 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah. Monta is listed at 6’3" 180 lb, Jrue is listed at 6’3" 185…..
and college programs are notorious for adding a few inches and/or pounds to players
(Anthony Randolph was listed at 6’11" 220 by LSU, but he actually measured at 6’10.25" (with shoes) and 197 lbs).
by the evil monkey on May 28, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Once upon a time at UNC, they had very strict rules about how players were listed in the media guide, but it provided a reasonably large range. A player’s measurement was taken and the player could decide to either round up or down to the nearest inch, then add or subtract an inch. So a player measuring 6’ 11.25" could round up to 7’, then add the inch to appear 7’1" in the media guide.
The only measurements I trust are those reported at the combine. While the weights will almost certainly change, and in some instances a player may grow some afterwards (though rarely that much by the time they are entering the draft) these are the most trustworthy sources for making a real comparison.
Of course how tall a player is is a factor that should not overrule how a player plays. A tall point guard like Crawford who plays like a guy a half a foot shorter isn’t making use of the height, and a short guy like Rondo who pulls in many rebounds shouldn’t be discounted because of the tape measure.
Also
It’s easy to get hung up on height. Rondo is short but has freakishly long arms and big hands (not to mention mad hops). As far as physical attributes go, these are probably bigger factors in gauging a player’s ability to board and guard bigger guys than height. Of course, Craw is both tall and long (just eyeballing), so your basic point about the importance of “playing big” stands.
On Holiday: he seems to be a good deal longer than Monta (if not nearly as explosive an athlete), so in theory he’d be better at guarding 2s, fighting through screens, getting in passing lanes, etc.
I don’t know, though … too much about Holiday seems to be “in theory.” The vague prospect that at some point in time he might be a good backcourt mate for Monta — if he learns to shoot and run an offense, and if we decide once and for all that Monta’s a shooting guard, and if we decide to play them both at the same time, for significant chunks of time, and if we never trade Monta, etc. — doesn’t seem quite worth blowing the #7 pick on.
Maybe I’d be more sanguine on him if the one guy on this board who has observed him closely all year (UCLA fan, forget his name) didn’t hate him? That’s still pretty much a dealbreaker for me. I think I’d rather have Lawson, Maynor, or Flynn, guys who might not “fit” in a starting backcourt alongside Monta, but have at least clearly shown the ability to play basketball.
Thing 1
by Sleepy Freud on May 28, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Good points.
“On Holiday: he seems to be a good deal longer than Monta (if not nearly as explosive an athlete), so in theory he’d be better at guarding 2s, fighting through screens, getting in passing lanes, etc.”
This is one of the problems I have with some fans way of thought. In theory, he’d be a better matchup against a 2 than Monta. Well…we don’t want to draft a guy we don’t have rated as high who’s bigger just because he might matchup better than Monta. In that case, the other team would still have somewhat of a mismatch at the 2, and a mismatch at the 1 most of the time against Ellis…so we’re still not in an ideal situation. If we’re looking for a big PG, it has to be someone that is actually a good matchup against a 2, so we only have one bad matchup. Not saying I like or dislike Evans as a prospect – but his size is what you need to be looking for because he doesn’t just matchup against 2’s better than Monta, he actually matches up with them well.
If we don’t like anyone that fits that description we’re better off going with a guy who will be a good matchup against PG’s, and that way we still only have one mismatch with Ellis at 2.
by Missing Barry on May 28, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Sleepy? Are your really this uninformed?
Jrue was an all world point guard coming out of high school and was supposed to be the Bruins starting point guard until Collison (a senior starter ) elected to come back. He was forced to play out of position off the ball at the 2 all year. He is 1st and foremost a point guard. As a big UCLA fan I watched him not only shut down DeRozan this year he got in his head and dominated him defensively. It was very impressive. I have also read scouting reports that say he looks like his old self at workouts and could have the most upside at point of everyone in the draft including Rubio and Jennings. If we are fortunate to get him at 7 we should be very happy. Many predict he could go #4 to Sacto. Lawson, Maynow, Flynn? They aren’t in his league as far a potential at the next level.
by dungeness crabdribble on May 28, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
derozan had 3 very good games against ucla this year. 6/8, 15pts, 5 rebounds in 38 minutes (though he did have 5 turnovers) on jan. 11th. 6/11, 15pts, 8 rebounds in 32 minutes on feb. 4th. 7/12, 21pts, 13! rebounds in 33 minutes in the pac 10 tourney. doesn’t look like holiday shut him down to me.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
i 2nd cap'n
i doubt jrue was guarding derozan—he was probably guarding hackett or dwight lewis who are both big guards (bigger than holiday) and very good players in their own right.
also despite all his struggles this season, derozan played well in every game against UCLA.
by gogoldenbears on May 28, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
my thought is that if holiday was guarding derozan effectively in a few minutes in each of those games, wouldn’t they switch him onto derozan for the rest of those games? derozan was lighting them up, if you’ve got a guy who’s “shutting him down”, “dominating him” and “getting in his head”, it’s a no-brainer to have that guy guard him for the rest of the game.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
logical
yeah i didn’t assume you were saying what i said but i was stating another case… i just agree that derozan was not shut down
by gogoldenbears on May 28, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, my last comment was just a brief addition to the points that we both clearly agree on: holiday was not shutting derozan down; derozan had 3 good games.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
no when Holiday was on him. I watched the game.
by dungeness crabdribble on May 28, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
once again, if holiday was guarding him well, why wasn’t he guarding him all game? derozan had 3 good games and if holiday could have stopped him, he would have guarded him. if that’s not the case, i’d be clamoring for a coaching change at ucla.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
why was randolph not playing the whole first half of the season…
im guessing the same reason why holiday got limited min.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawk on May 28, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
wow, if you guys had your way he would still be riding the bench
Do you know when Randolph really started to improve? When we were down on bigmen (Biedrins and Wright were hurt) and Nelson HAD to play him consistent minutes night in and night out, and couldn’t afford to pull him immediately whenever he made a mistake (as ALL rookies do). Put yourself in his shoes: if you know that you are going to get 30 minutes a night, you are going to play relaxed and not going to try to make an amazing play everytime down the court just so that you can get some more playing time.
Early on we KNEW this was going to be a down season. Knowing that, Nelson should have given him consistent minutes every night (at least 20) and allowed him to work out his mistakes and settle down out there. What you DON’T do is pull him whenever he commits any kind of error and not play him for two weeks afterward. Talk about a recipe for ruining someone’s confidence/making him unsure of himself on the floor.
This isn’t just some crackpot viewpoint from a Randolph lover. Several analysts (not including fricken Fitz, who is an embecile) made the point that in a losing season, you HAVE to play a guy consistently with as much talent as Randolph has. And what do you know, at the end of the season when Nelson had to give him 25+ minutes a game, he improved dramatically.
Yeh, you are right though, Don Nelson handled it perfectly and he deserves the thanks for Randolph’s improvement. What a complete joke.
by randolphforpresident on May 28, 2009 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
there’s nothing wrong with using practice to teach a kid who doesn’t understand how to play properly. he was awful at the beginning of the year, then he played better and earned more pt. crazy stuff, i know.
thank you don nelson, for not rewarding a player for playing poorly.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
more like...
he started playing well because he got more playing time…not the other way around…
we were FORCED to play him because our bigs were all injured…
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawk on May 28, 2009 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Keep in mind the info coming from Nelson and the Warriors was Randolph didn’t realize what it really took to be a good NBA player. He didn’t consistently show up with the type of effort expected out of a professional, and Nelson made sure he learned his lesson. Once he started working harder and getting minutes he started to improve – the key for his long term growth, though, was finding out how hard he has to work to be an impact player in the NBA.
by Missing Barry on May 28, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Are we talking about AR here? If we are, he didn’t play because he wasn’t working hard enough to earn his PT. I don’t like the way Nelson has been coaching this team, but that’s one move I agree with. Letting him coast his way to a Darius Miles career isn’t going to help us – making him work hard enough to earn his minutes could give us a star in the making, though.
by Missing Barry on May 28, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually watched the game you didn;t...nuff said!
by dungeness crabdribble on May 29, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
not really. why would holiday only guard him for a few plays if he was locking him down? derozan had very good games when he played ucla. if holiday could guard him, why wouldn’t he guard him all game? i feel you need to explain a statement that factual evidence argues with.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
i think its yoyo? or something like that
bruins bloggers on SB nation seem to agree with his assessment
by gogoldenbears on May 28, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
my fear has been that a ton of people are loving Holiday because Westbrook looked so good. I know they are similar in size and put up similar numbers, but I can’t help but feel that anyone who has actually watched them both play can see a considerable difference between them. This exact argument was made in an article on SI.com today. (see link in comment above)
Thing A
i know so sad...
i was at that game and my jaw dropped…
by gogoldenbears on May 30, 2009 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I love this pick
Defensive… big… makes teams keep guessing us based on matchups. PASS FIRST GUARD is who we need. Holiday could be that guy, I just hope his skills haven’t diminished since his “forced” switch to SG this season. I’m scared a bit by his free-throw percentage too (Low 70% – which isn’t good for a PG and a huge need for us to finish games).
Golden State Warriors fan since 1984. The Filipino sensation!
The loudest Warrior fan in Section 208, Row DS, Seats 15-16.
Yes
Him or T.Evans would be great. Jennings is too small, though there is no denying the talent.
Ellis to the RIM!
Monta for the win?! YES!
If you opt against picking Jennings because he is small, you ARE denying the the talent, or at least the opportunity to employ the talent you said you cannot deny. The league is littered with ‘what ifs’ where teams passed on players in order to pick for need (and ‘fitting with Monta in the backcourt’ is a ‘need’ scenario). Short term thinking (e.g. “we need a to go along with ”) cuts down your options and your picking with the deck stacked against you.
here's some good video...
better than ur average strictly dunk highlight video
"To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are." - Muhammad Ali
after watching that clip...
I am starting to like Jennings and Evans better than Holiday. Holiday looks like he lacks the explosiveness that Evans or Jennings bring to the table.
by Sharunas Marchulenis on May 28, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
we dont need explosiveness
our offense is already great….and we have argueably the fastest man in the league
we need: defensive (man to man/perimiter/able to guard both positions) and vision
holiday provides both
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
If Holiday had a bigger year at UCLA...
I might be more inclined to prefer him over the other point guards. However, he didn’t. A lot seems to be a mystery to him. Is he a true point guard? Is he a playmaker? I guess I haven’t seen enough of what he can do. Like Jennings, I think Holiday will be a boom or bust pick.
by Sharunas Marchulenis on May 28, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
of course
he didnt have agreat year at UCLA…
he was forced to play the SG position (he is a true PG if u followed him in HS…was one of the top PG prospects..was taken by UCLA to be PG, but collison decided to stay one more year)
he was forced to play in a slow paced system
according to all the draft workouts, he’s playing amazingly well…and showing why he was one of the top PG prospects coming out of HS
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
if he has as much talent as you say
and he is going to be a star in the nba… he should have been able to overcome a switch to the SG position (in college no less) a little better than he did. i’m not saying he won’t necessarily turn into a great player but thats why i question him. i don’t think the switch to SG can be used as that much of an excuse. if you’re a great basketball player you should still be able to play decently out of position. holiday didn’t prove that…
by gogoldenbears on May 30, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions
PG and SG are VERY different roles
i can see why he wouldnt react well to it….
go look at what the scouts are saying about him in the combines…hes doing exceptionally well now that he is able to play the proper position…so i think it was more the position than anything…and also a slow offense like UCLA didnt fit his playstyle
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
I'm intrigued by Jrue, but not before Jennings, Evans, and Lawson
Regardless of the fact he didn’t play PG much, he never showed that star ability at UCLA nor did he show glimpses of it and this was in a mediocre and sub-par Pac-10 conference. He’s a combo guard, neither a pure PG nor a true off-guard, so he should’ve showed UCLA fans something. His shooting percentage and A/TO ratio were also pretty low.
However, his size and potential (I would rate him top 3 PG’s in potential) are excellent, but that’s not enough to rate him above the other 3.
Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or Tyreke Evans. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Conductor of the We're Back Warrior Movement!
Lawson on your list but not Flynn?
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
"It takes a special kind of anti-mojo for a team to miss the playoffs 14 out of 15 seasons. Like, say, the Warriors under Chris Cohan."
I would never take Lawson with the 7 pick...
My order would probably be: 1) Jennings
2) Evans
3) Flynn
by Sharunas Marchulenis on May 29, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
lol Lawson blows out Flynn almost in every way
Size: Same height, but Lawson is built great for a PG, posts up other guard often. Lawson Wins
Speed: Lawson has been dubbed the fastest player in the NCAA. Lawson wins.
Court Vision: Both are good, but Lawson has the better A/To ratio of 3.5 vs 2.0. Lawson Wins
Shooting: 46 FG%, 31 3PT% for Flynn vs 53 FG%, 47 3PT%. Lawson Wins.
Penetration: Flynn is a little more agile and draws the foul more. Flynn Wins
Defense: Both are average defenders when manned up, but Lawsons bulk makes him lest prone to being posted up by either PG’s. Lawson’s quick hands, which was shown in the latest tourney, gets him alot of steals. Advantage Lawson.
Experience: 3 NCAA seasons and a Big Dance championship vs 2 NCAA seasons. Lawson wins
Potential: Lawson is 21, Flynn is 20. Lawson is more NBA ready, but Flynn has the higher ceiling. Advantage Flynn
Leadership: Flynn is a strong and vocal speaker. Lawson is more laid back. Advantage Flynn.
Lawson wins 6 categories vs Flynn’s 3. Of course I’ll take the tar heel.
Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or Tyreke Evans. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Conductor of the We're Back Warrior Movement!
How do you determine that Flynn has a ‘higher ceiling"? What is this based on? A year’s difference in age? Something else?
Flynn does not draw more fouls than Lawson. Flynn’s 6 FTAs per game in 37 minutes on the court is not nearly as impressive as Lawson’s 5.9 in less than 30 minutes. Lawson was more effective at drawing fouls.
Lawson
I think it’s safe to say that Lawson is being consistently underrated for some reason. Is it the whole Lawson=Felton thing that people can’t seem to get over? Is it his size? Aside from his wingspan he’s about the same size as Flynn.
Thing 2
or its that
people rated him too high originally b/c he was on a dominant team…getting carried…now that he’s at the combine where he has to compete with different teammates…i think seeing him compete against other guards is showing how much better they are than him?
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
I think the Lawson=Felton thing dominates many people’s thinking even if they don’t admit it. If Felton was worth a gamble mid lottery, and hindsight aside, no one really questioned the pick as a stretch, then Lawson should be too, unless we have some overwhelming evidence that’s changed since then. If the evidence is “Felton hasn’t been more than adequate, thus Lawson won’t be” it’s poor logic that I suspect has a hard time seeing past the uniform colors.
Poor Man's Shaun Livingston
Jrue can’t shoot or stay in front of quick PG’s. He was a fairly big disappointment at UCLA and when the season ended, nobody thought he should leave. Now that he’s entered the draft, the hype machine is working again and people have forgotten the issues he had and are looking at him based almost entirely on him becoming a different player that he is now. Livingston was a much better prospect and even he struggled to beat out a washed up Sam Cassell for the starting spot.
There’s also no way he’s close to being ready to play pro basketball next year and I think it’s high time that the Warriors started adding some guys who can actually play a position rather than those with the potential to be versatile.
I ranked the top 10 PG’s over at my blog and I had him in the bottom half. I think the Warriors are better off with a steady guy like Lawson or Jonny Flynn or Eric Maynor than Jrue.
you may want to read the review of day 1 of the combine below, Now don't you wish you could delete your post?
by dungeness crabdribble on May 29, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
The first paragraph admits the first day was "not very telling".
Most of the top ranked point guards not named Ty Lawson got glowing reviews. That seems about right because Lawson is arguably the best game manager of the lot while the others are made for wide open drills.
Jrue has potential but I really don’t get how people can dismiss how out of whack he looked in actual games and in a real defensive/offensive set just because he looked good in some drills. I think what one GM said about Austin Daye (“This is the perfect scenario for him. Show off your skills and don’t worry about having to face contact or play physical defense. It’s when those tough defenders come that you start to see the other side of Daye.”) is also relatable to Jrue.
And not that they are experts but the NBAdraft.net’s write-up wasn’t nearly as glowing.
i think him playing out of position had something to do with it.
but i understand what you’re saying, but he has good size and even more important good defender.
i bet a few guys at my local gym could look good in a combine
its disappointing they changed the format away from games. most guys will look good in the new format. sure he passes the eye test, but can he play with defenders, etc. also remember the ‘eye test’ he ‘passed’ was vs. lawson, flynn, patty mills, etc. they’re all tiny
by gogoldenbears on May 30, 2009 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait, dont let it slide
The writer of the post agreed with himself, that’s sketch.
combine day 1
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=PreDraftTour-090529
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
looks like Lawson's
getting overmatched by the bigger guys according to that same article
LeBron James? I'm the only Ty Crane.
by misterjennings on May 29, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
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