Why No One Knows Nuthin
by hardcore on Jun 18, 2009 2:45 PM PDT
97 comments
Well, almost nothing - even a week from the draft.
via the1cory.files.wordpress.com
Other than Griffin being taken #1 by the Clippers, no one can say with any degree of certainty what’s going to transpire in this year’s draft. The fact that the top of this year’s draft is more uncertain than in virtually any year in the past thirty leaves fertile ground for spurious rumor mongering not only here on GSoM but elsewhere as well. All this begs the question: Why?
The answer is not as simple as a weak 2009 draft class, it goes beyond any simplistic, knee-jerk reaction as that. There are several players in this draft class who could blow up and become stars, and several potential busts. This is true of any draft, so what makes THIS draft so uncertain?
Inclusion of HS players and International players at increasing rates has been part of recent draft history, and combined with several other factors has served to increase the risk of picking a bust. But that also does not fully explain the uncertainty of this draft.
One of the invisible factors is the impact of the looming 2010 FA class – while most of the FA will likely re-sign with their teams, several big name FA are primed to make a move and control their own destiny. Chris Bosh is one such example – forgoing any extension talks with Toronto has left the Raptors virtually helpless to trade him and expect near-equal value in return. Meanwhile teams like the Knicks may be continuing to work to reduce their caps in anticipation of 2010, which helps explain why NY might be interested in drafting Hill, despite already having a young & capable Lee at PF. Rather than extend Lee to big money which would pinch their ability to pursue LJ or Bosh, they are entertaining moving Lee and drafting Hill who’s contract will be significantly less. Multiply this by the number of teams angling to increase their cap space for next summer and the permutations are mind-boggling.
In this type of climate, while GSW will not likely be a player in obtaining a big-time FA in 2010, we can make inroads on improving our roster by picking off quality players who other clubs could be jettisoning. On the other hand, off-loading expensive players in this climate is going to be even more difficult than ever, so short of a superstar demanding a trade from another club we aren’t likely to be able to move Crawford or any of our other previous contract mistakes.
But one of the most significant factors decreasing the level of certainty regarding this draft is the status of the #2 pick, and that has a trickle down effect upon nearly every team in the lottery, indeed the whole first round. It also helps explain all the wild rumors being floated – scenarios are being explored both in the GM draft-rooms and sports columnists blogs.
Memphis simply has not decided what direction to follow with its pick. There are several players they could take at #2, but none is a consensus choice and the Grizzlies are entertaining trade options as well as sorting through who they would take at #2.
While Rubio was an early #2 favorite, some of the bloom has faded – both on whether he will be able to wriggle free of his Euro contract, and at what costs, as well as whether he truly has the type of talent to be a lead guard in the NBA. If not Rubio, who?
via nbcsportsmedia1.msnbc.com
Another highly regarded collegian is Hasheem Thabeet, the UConn big man, but is he going to be as much of an impact player as say James Harden? In a move that sets Memphis up well to trade down, they have scheduled workouts for Thabeet, USC's Demar DeRozan and Arizona's Jordan Hill as well as University of Memphis player Tyreke Evans (who’s workout for Memphis raised several eyebrows). This kind of uncertainty helps explain the number and depth of the various tryouts, including GSW laundry list of tryouts. We can only hope that these will help us pick off an diamond in the rough from the undrafted players as well.
via media.commercialappeal.com
Remember this is the team that waited until the last moment to make the Mayo deal last year, so anything’s possible right up to the last minute. Reportedly, Sacramento, Houston, Boston, Minnesota, Washington and New York are among the teams that have made offers for the #2 pick. One report even had NJ dangling Devin Harris. Do any of them have merit? We won’t likely know until Memphis is "on the clock."
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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some food for thought - the most underated player int he draft
by Dungeness Crab Dribble on Jun 18, 2009 2:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Very interesting about Evans.....
looks like his stock will slip.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very uninformed sounding speculation on this whole “Evans refusing to work out” thing. I’m not going to say I have any idea what the deal is, but from the way he put it, it sounds like he knows as much about it as I do.
by Missing Barry on Jun 18, 2009 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post. So he does everything but score well? Damn, he’d otherwise be the perfect player. Too bad we desperately need guys who can score or he’d be perfect on the W’s.
by Balance on Jun 18, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction:
So he does everything but SHOOT well?
by Balance on Jun 18, 2009 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A taller, thicker DeMarcus Nelson?
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not just shooting, it’s anything involving scoring in general. I have yet to see a single place that likes Williams as a prospect. Not a single site (ESPN, nbadraft.net, draft express) has him rated as a top 15 prospect, Hollinger’s formulas don’t like him as a top prospect. The only thing I’ve heard about him being a good prospect is the Warriors interest.
by Missing Barry on Jun 18, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this guy any more knowledgeable on basketball than the great Tim Kawakami?
by Missing Barry on Jun 18, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea. Just saying its not like nobody else like Williams a lot.
Thing A
"Well I seriously thought he was just tanned." -Nuck Chorris
by sam23 on Jun 18, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha…well, it wouldn’t take much to be.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Jun 19, 2009 1:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes according to Chad Ford he may be one of the most knowledgeable.
What? You think some GM’s are interested in him because he is a stiff? What are your credientials for judging talent?
by Dungeness Crab Dribble on Jun 19, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Louisville’s Terrence Williams is another player who is a potential lottery crasher. The Warriors have been high on Williams all year and will seriously consider him at No. 7. And Williams also seems to have seriously moved into the mix with the Nets at No. 11 and the Bobcats at No. 12. In fact, sources say that Williams has been invited back to Charlotte for a second time. One league source says that he’s leapfrogged Duke’s Gerald Henderson on Larry Brown’s board.
by the evil monkey on Jun 18, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we desperately need guys who can score or he’d be perfect - ?
huh … seems like a lot of folks on this site perceive that we are already a high scoring team that needs more rebounding, defense & passing skills to stack up against playoff caliber teams …
by hardcore on Jun 19, 2009 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
from Memphis tryout
How did Evans perform Wednesday during his workout for the Griz?
Evans dominated orange cones like no one has seen. Seriously, it’s difficult to gauge when a player is on the court alone and not facing another live body. That said, Evans went through a series of shooting drills and didn’t embarrass himself. His ability to make shots has clearly improved and Evans didn’t change his mechanics.
Is Evans a legitimate candidate for the second selection?
Grizzlies general manager Chris Wallace said as much. But the truth is the Griz aren’t likely to select Evans with the second pick. Inviting him to work out had more to do with the Grizzlies considering Evans if they move down in the draft and stay within the top six picks. While Evans likely will go on to have a stellar NBA career, he doesn’t represent the best value at the second pick. That distinction belongs to Rubio, who has tons of suitors."
by hardcore on Jun 18, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing I hate most about Williams is that other Guards refuse to workout against him. Defense is completely over rated and should not be considered in any player comparision, ecept for Holiday becuase he’s younger.
Everyone see the new draft express report on SG’s? Williams shouldn’t even play in the D league.
by Balance on Jun 19, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense is overrated? Huh? It’s half the damn game.
by jae on Jun 19, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
defense is overrated. what an idiotic statement.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Jun 20, 2009 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice
Terrance Williams has said that he wants to someday win the “Defensive Player of the Year” award as a point guard.
by Precise Films Productions on Jun 25, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chad Ford: One of the challenges that teams in the late lottery to mid first round are facing is trying to get a good handle on who will be there starting from pick No. 11.
I think we have a good idea of who, roughly, the top 10 picks will be (or as I laid it out in my article today, the top 3 tiers). In some order they go:
Blake Griffin (obviously No. 1)
Ricky Rubio (2 to 6)
Hasheem Thabeet (2 to 6)
James Harden (2 to 5)
Jordan Hill (5 to 10)
Stephen Curry (3 to 8)
Tyreke Evans (4 to 9)
Jrue Holiday (4 to 10)
Jonny Flynn (4 to 10)
DeMar DeRozan (3 to 9)
But, even that list isn’t set in stone. After publishing the Tiers story this morning, I got some interesting feedback from several NBA scouts and executives. A couple of players out of Tier 4 threaten to crash the top-10 party. Who are they?
North Carolina’s Ty Lawson has taken some abuse during the draft workout process, but it sounds as though teams are starting to come around. Lawson was, without question, the most productive point guard in the draft. Teams are skeptical because of his size and his style of play. But he’s been great in several recent workouts according to sources and apparently is in the mix with the Knicks at No. 8 if guys like Curry and Hill are off the board. Lawson also is still on the board at No. 10 to Milwaukee and the Pacers at No. 13 and the Sixers at No. 17 are also giving him a serious look. If Lawson ends up crashing the top 10, that would probably push either Holiday or Flynn out.
Louisville’s Terrence Williams is another player who is a potential lottery crasher. The Warriors have been high on Williams all year and will seriously consider him at No. 7. And Williams also seems to have seriously moved into the mix with the Nets at No. 11 and the Bobcats at No. 12. In fact, sources say that Williams has been invited back to Charlotte for a second time. One league source says that he’s leapfrogged Duke’s Gerald Henderson on Larry Brown’s board.
The final guy to watch is Henderson, who is getting a serious look in New York, Toronto and Charlotte. In each case I think there are players ahead of him on each team’s draft boards, but under certain scenarios I think he could go 8 to 12. However, if DeMar DeRozan is on the board at No. 9, I think he’s going ahead of Henderson in Toronto. And, if the source on Williams is to be believed, it’s possible that Henderson could slide out of the lottery.
by the evil monkey on Jun 18, 2009 3:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
EM: Your entire post should be put into a quote box. While you attribute the first line to Ford, it isn’t clear that the whole post was cut and pasted from an article.
Let’s not encourage plagiarism.
by jae on Jun 18, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, sorry, had a “boss moment”.
by the evil monkey on Jun 18, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
was it an insider article? If so, forget the plagiarism concern. ESPN doesn’t need to charge the insider fee, and they are just doing it because they can.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Jun 19, 2009 1:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are going to Draft DeRozen
Your a Jerk.
Your a Jerk.
Your a Jerk.
I know.
by Sinigang on Jun 18, 2009 4:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Rubio is a fegan hype-job.
Earl Boykins > Rubio……. as rookies
Boykins could bench 335 pounds, twice his own weight.
Rubio will be a lot like Tony Parker if he pans out: injured, getting lots of help from the refs, lacking in physicality, but crafty as hell.
The fact that Fegan is being so selective about Rubio’s workouts and hasn’t publicly worked out or played with other lottery picks is very telling. Buyer beware….
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 4:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
not because they are European and both white.
I have actually seen them both play.
Beat the color police to it. HA!
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
since when is tony parker wihite?
by Dungeness Crab Dribble on Jun 18, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Touche, since when is Rubio white?
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we could get into a very interesting discussion about race at this point, but something tells me it’s best to move on.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 18, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Color police have arrived.
Been there, done that. Way ahead of you.
Rubio spends his whole day in the gym. Oh wait he doesn’t. He could be white, but I don’t really care.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
policing and pointing out that something stupid is likely to be said are two very different things.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 19, 2009 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's french and his skin is still light. I'm not sitting here looking up players' preferred racial orientation.
If Parker wanted to be white I am sure he could get away with it (he fooled me).
Peoples’ perceptions of identity are so subjective to the context in which they appear that it doesn’t even matter to me. It only matters to people like Hack, so I thought I was being preemptive. The fact that I can’t “read” his identity shouldn’t mean anything.
Deal with it. You and your buddy hack can go play with each other.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 8:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t care about this conversation much and wasn’t going to chime in, but I’m just confused how you can confuse Tony Parker for white. I mean, sure he’s a light skinned black dude, but he’s pretty obviously black. I am very curious and amused at this.
by Missing Barry on Jun 18, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I seriously thought he was just tanned.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow. Did you just crawl out of a cave in North Dakota?
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Jun 19, 2009 1:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
nuck el head,,,,, you should have quite while you were ahead.
Any opinions on Blake Griffen?
by Dungeness Crab Dribble on Jun 18, 2009 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you'd have to ask him, but I bet you wouldn't get a straightforward answer.
Lol, you can’t get ahead with Sam and hack.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
why are you upset with us for pointing out the (obvious) fact that Tony Parker is black? And Cap actually didn’t even do that.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 18, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's upset? I've simply seen a lot of your arguments here on this board,
and you just don’t give up in spite of whether you are right or wrong. Your reputation precedes you.
I don’t like engaging with people who constantly feel the need to flex their e-peens, and I’ll admit when I’m wrong. So no, I’m not upset. I’m just choosing not to deal.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude, chill out. There’s no reason to start a flame war and start tossing insults, I’m just confused about how someone could mistake Tony Parker for white. It just seems to me to indicate a lack of knowledge, and was kinda amusing following your statement about being pretty familiar with both guys.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 18, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not making insults. That's just my honest perception of you.
A rabidly argumentative internet poster. Take it for what it is. If you take it as an insult that is just too bad, but it’s not my problem.
Though I did think Tony Parker was just tanned…
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s French, but that has nothing to do with it. Mikael Pietrus is French too. I have a hard time believing that anyone who is as familiar with Tony Parker as you implied wouldn’t just know or recognize that he’s black….but fine, whatever, I really don’t care whether you’re full of crap or your eyes really just don’t work like the rest of ours. But why would you say that it matters to people like Cap? I’m really unclear why you took such offense to his comment, all he has said in this entire discussion is
we could get into a very interesting discussion about race at this point, but something tells me it’s best to move on.
I don’t know if what has followed qualifies as an interesting discussion, it seems more like you being embarrassed and defensive. But it appears the second half of his comment was right, it probably would’ve been best to just move on.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 18, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen him argue about race before this thread. Thanks for proving the point above.
all done.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used Pietrus as an example because I thought you were using the fact that Parker is French as an explanation for why you thought he was white. Did I misinterpret that? Reading it again, it still implies the same thing to me. Maybe its because I’ve had a couple cold ones tonight, but the only point you’ve made so far that seems clear to me is that you don’t like people to respond to your posts in disagreement, especially not me or cap.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 18, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
when have we discussed race on this blog? i recall no such instance. i remember that the two of us discussed boycotts and the way what they mean in american culture and history, but that is not strictly a discussion of race. that’s a discussion of american history.
i stand by the statement that there could be a very interesting discussion of race based on your statement:
Touche, since when is Rubio white?
discussions about whether or not people from spain are considered “white” have happened in the real world. what’s there to get upset about when i say that a discussion about that issue would likely degenerate in to a stupid conversation like the one that is presently happening?
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 19, 2009 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not upset, that was the fun part to write. There COULD be an argument about whether or not Rubio is "white."
A little “touche” is simply sarcasm at realizing how fluid these perceptions are.
I actually learned a lot from both Belilaugh’s and Monk’s posts in this “degenerate” conversation since their views sum how I’ve always felt about perceptions of race and their fluid or dynamic nature.
So when people like you or sam come in with this black or white, cut or dry mentality I don’t even want to argue. That is what makes a conversation degenerate. Besides the second post was to prevent hypersensitive people like you or Sam from hijacking the initial topic by saying “OH THEY’RE BOTH EURO’s” or “OH THEY’RE BOTH (INSERT RACIAL IDENTITY HERE).” Mission Failed. In spite of that, the next time I see some argument about racial perceptions spring up I’ll refer to the well articulated posts of Beli and Monk.
I’m well aware of how racial identity is a construction of perceptions, both cultural and physical. We do not have to have an argument every time there is discord between our perceptions. Nor will there be.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 19, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So when people like you or sam come in with this black or white, cut or dry mentality I don’t even want to argue. That is what makes a conversation degenerate. Besides the second post was to prevent hypersensitive people like you or Sam from hijacking the initial topic by saying "OH THEY’RE BOTH EURO’s" or "OH THEY’RE BOTH (INSERT RACIAL IDENTITY HERE)." Mission Failed.
when did i do this? i was saying that this could be an interesting conversation, but on a blog, is very likely to result in someone saying stupid things. it did. belilaugh, the.monk, and jae have all made very valid, interesting points in this discussion (though only belilaugh had posted anything when i made the comment you are replying to), but on a blog, a discussion of race is likely to turn in a bad direction quickly. i stand by that and you don’t even seem to disagree with that, you seem to be arguing with me based on your opinion of me as poster on this site.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 19, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
DING DING DING!
you finally figured it out. Even after I stated as much already.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 19, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This should settle it
Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.
by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 19, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see Rubio here
30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ
by Lat We N Trash on Jun 22, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously just thought he was tanned.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 8:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
in your defense, he’s half white according to wikipedia
His father, Tony Parker Sr., an African-American, played basketball at Loyola University Chicago, as well as professionally overseas. His mother, Pamela Firestone, is a Dutch model.this other quote though i can’t defend
Tony Parker if he pans out: injured, getting lots of help from the refs, lacking in physicality, but crafty as hell.he’s never played less than 69 games and routinely plays 77-80 – and i don’t recall him every missing a playoff game. like devin harris (who is getting lots of help from the refs), parker actually has good speed paired with good handles – but unlike harris, parker is a great finisher especially with his trademark floater – which would be the first thing people who have seen him play would usually mention.
granted, only watched youtube highlights, but what seems to set Rubio apart is his ability to read plays… especially his anticipation skills. just b/c guys like Bird, Mullin & Stockton didn’t jump out of the building doesn’t mean they weren’t all time greats. and just b/c guys like Nash, Miller, Nelson, Parker, Harris or Calderon will never put up the kind of highlights Monta can doesn’t mean they aren’t much better players at the PG position.
by the evil monkey on Jun 18, 2009 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to this link, the population of France in 2008 was 3.8% black, going by racial self-identification. I’ll be the first to admit that this source may not be reliable because the source it links for it’s racial census of France is broken, but at the same time, I also acknowledge the fact that even if there were a margin of error of 40, blacks would still be a minority. What 3.8% implies is that there are very few black people in France.
So, I don’t find it incomprehensible that he did not think Parker was black. If he mentally categorized him as French first, and then noted the light skin, it is not that illogical a conclusion to say he is white.
And, as various studies have shown, once someone is labeled as something it is hard to take the label off.
Besides, race is an extremely fluid phenomenon. Even as recently as the early 1900s, Jews were not considered white. Yet now, for reasons I won’t get into because it would cause controversy on this board, a Jew with light skin is commonly accepted as white. If he said that he did not think Adam Sandler was white, would you have the same reaction? Well just know that in 1900, his interpretation would have been considered correct. That doesn’t change his (hypothetical) interpretation, however.
So I really don’t know why you guys are questioning his basketball credibility based off his personal classification system. I completely understand that most people do not think of Tony Parker as white, but that should not diminish the viewpoints of those who do. That just seems like a faulty way of dismissing what he says.
by belilaugh on Jun 18, 2009 9:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
wow. blown. out. of. proportion.
I’m not really questioning his basketball credibility, I’m just saying that if someone is familiar with a player, as he said he was with Parker, its odd that they wouldn’t know that players race when it isn’t all that difficult (in my opinion) to see. Not many people make that mistake. Even fewer people who have watched Parker a lot make that mistake. I’m not saying it totally discredits everything he says, it was just amusing.
Thing A
"Well I seriously thought he was just tanned." -Nuck Chorris
by sam23 on Jun 18, 2009 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably. My bad.
I was just counterarguing that:
1) It is not a “fact” that Parker is black, it is a dominant opinion. I refer to him as black as well, but I can’t say that my view of his race is factual.
2) Him thinking Parker was white does not mean he hasn’t seen him play. It just means he thought (because I think he has changed his mind now that you all have informed him otherwise) Tony Parker was white when he saw him play.
Not trying to blow it out of proportion, but like you, probably, it is a boring summer night where I really don’t have much going on so if I find something interesting (even if it’s unimportant) on here I will probably respond to it.
by belilaugh on Jun 18, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t mean you specifically blew it out of proportion, should’ve been a general reply. I just meant I wasn’t trying to start a race debate or say the guy knows nothing about basketball, I really just found his comment very amusing. I don’t disagree with any of the points you made.
Thing A
"Well I seriously thought he was just tanned." -Nuck Chorris
by sam23 on Jun 19, 2009 1:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Swat I'm sayin yall
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 18, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
3.8% is the same as 1 in 26. In a perfectly random sample, this means there’s be a token black kid in most classrooms. I will not offer this as an opinion of ‘very few’ or otherwise. It’s simply an example to gauge relative scarcity.
The real scandal is that Parker was born in Belgium but pretends he’s French!
by jae on Jun 18, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless I am misunderstanding you, it seems that you are arguing about my choice of words. Very few might be extreme (though I think 1 in 26 is very few), but basically, I meant it as they are far away from being the majority of the French population. So in the public’s eye, the average French person is unlikely to be black, cause when they look in that classroom, they see 25 non-black kids.
Besides, since we are talking about the poster’s perception of race, then it would also be important to factor in media coverage of different races in France that reaches the USA (which is where I assume the poster lives, but obviously this is just an assumption). I really don’t feel like finding a study about media representation of French people, but of the ones I’ve read about American media, all non-black minorities are underrepresented. I would think that in France there would be similar representation for black minorities, for reasons I will not get into unless somebody asks.
And I actually had no idea he was born in Belgium. But I can see why he wouldn’t want to play for the Belgian national basketball team. That would probably get depressing when they showed up at Olympic qualifying with like 4 players.
by belilaugh on Jun 18, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but actually, to counter myself, if the poster was from America, then American coverage of races might be more important.
by belilaugh on Jun 18, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the perception of parker here very well could be different than the perception of parker in france. race qualifies as a cultural perception; i’m glad you pointed that out. no one else seemed to bother (though hardcore certainly hinted at it with the photos below. i’m just not sure anyone will pick up on that)…
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 19, 2009 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
'cultural perception' or socio-economic construct
we should recall with fondness the long dispute between one trunk of T.Jefferson’s familial tree that called itself ‘white’ and the other they considered ‘black". we don’t use expressions like mulatto or octaroon any more, but two hundred years ago they did because they recognized things weren’t just black or white. pietrus and parker can share the categories of french-speaking and ‘black’ but probably have a lot of cultural dissimilarities, being of very different geographic origins, from the socialization influence of their respective mothers, und so weiter. i’d be more inclined to consider one francophone afro-caribbean, the other afro-french or afro-european.
that 3.8% self-identification figure for the french population obscures another socio-cultural construct that is probably more significant in the self-categorization of the folks in france—‘north africans/arabs/algierians’, many of whom have african ancestry but consider themselves ‘white’, and people can play games with north africa differing from sub saharan africa as if gene pools don’t get constantly commingled. no doubt, francophone afrique du nord is culturally very different than francophone west africa, and french speaking tuareg people might define themselves as none of the above.
as bellilaugh noted, the definitions are fluid. italian immigrants were also not considered ‘white’ in amerika at one time. when i was a social worker and had occasion to review birth certificates i learned how many more convoluted ‘racial’ categories were listed on texas birth certificates compared to ones from ny or calif. is the racial category ‘mongolian’ still used nowadays? it was commonplace when i was a kid for folks of east asian origins, though the mongols literally sprinkled their genes (along with bubonic-plague bearing rats) all over eurasia. we also racially categorize people by the dialect of ingles we hear people speaking, so someone in the u.s. south or midwest who heard parker speaking english might just think he’s a euro—he sho’ doan soun’ black. we impose, transpose, project, self-impose these categories that have few means of impartial, objective verification, so if no offense is meant (as in mistaking parker as ‘white’) there’s none to be taken.
by the.monk on Jun 19, 2009 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well said. to add to your points about self-identification with certain ethnic groups in france, it’s important to think about dubois’ looking glass self remarks and think about the idea that the way people perceive themselves is often a product of the way they are perceived by the rest of the culture. “self-identification” in terms of race is a nice, easy way of looking at it, but there’s a much more complicated set of issues to be worked out. adoptees in interracial families, for example, have to go through a lot of identity issues based on the culture of the people who raised them, and the way they are looked upon by society at large. i suppose that also sends us back to the way parker might be viewed in america as very different than his perceived “race” in france. we aren’t talking about biology and appearance; there’s a lot to figure out in our world of our constructed racial “realities”.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 19, 2009 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A particularly interesting example of the fluidity of categories is “Asian/Pacific Islander”. Prior to the early 70s, this term was never ever used. It was a manufactured census category during the Nixon administration when they decided to reign in an explosion of “racial” categories. It was a garbage-pail category, entirely thrust upon groups ranging from Siberia to New Zealand, groups that culturally have zilch in common beyond what we all share in common as people, that share dreadfully little in common biologically and have vastly different cultural histories. It was a rather dismissive category for the most part.
Yet in 30+ years, the term has now stuck in many cases to the point that people use it as a ethnic reality. Now many college campuses have Asian/Pacific Islander student unions or organizations. I’ve heard activists talk about the social issues that specifically affect “Asian/Pacific Islanders” as if there is any unity other than that there’s a box on the census form to check to unite them. It’s not even a case of self identification. It’s a case of Casper Weinberger (Nixon’s Sec. of Health and Human Services) drawing a circle around a gigantic area of geography and declaring it similar.
by jae on Jun 19, 2009 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
octaroon? I’ve never heard that, where does it come from? when/how was it used?
Thing A
"Well I seriously thought he was just tanned." -Nuck Chorris
by sam23 on Jun 20, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops
meant as a reply to the.monk
Thing A
"Well I seriously thought he was just tanned." -Nuck Chorris
by sam23 on Jun 20, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
usually spelled 'octoroon'
but i gave it a more phonetic rendering, as one might hear it in its louisiana (17th-first half of 20th centuries) context. french and spanish colonial societies (kind of a catholic thing, because once converted, non-whites were acknowledged to be at least partially human and could have legitimized/baptized children) recognized degrees of separation from ‘pure euro’ ancestry with the terms ‘quadroon’ and ‘octoroon’ respectively for those of 1/4 or 1/8 non-euro descent. ‘creole’ or ‘mestizo’ were less specific and more generalized terms for ‘mixed’ people. as one might expect, those perceived to have more euro blood had higher social status.
for a government-imposed categorization in the same vein as the census that jae brought up, with far-reaching and devastating aftershocks, we shouldn’t overlook the census taken by the british occupation in India during the later part of the nineteenth century. they just had to quantify how many ‘wogs’ were in various religious categories.
the moguls had invaded the subcontinent centuries earlier and their religion of islam had spread with their influence and rule, but many religions had co-existed there long before them, and continued during their domination of most of the northern part of india. the brits wanted to quantify (no real practical purpose to it) how many muslims were in the population, which motivated the founding of the muslim league—political consciousness— and eventually partition. obviously we can’t know if the muslims would have separated in any event, but the timing and manner in which it did come to pass were direct consequences of how the brits administered their former colonial possession.
by the.monk on Jun 20, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about Ronny?
He’s from France! Oh, how I miss the Warriors!
by Shells on Jun 20, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoa
look who’s back
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawk on Jun 20, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well i missed you too.
Honestly, no. But has anyone ever told you that you must be Monta’s #1 fan?
Or top 10 for sure.
BTW, the dunk poster from the Sun game (centuries ago) I now have as part of my avatar. Somehow providing the whole image online is beyond knowledge. I can only be oh so smart. And many will argue that I am anything bu….a Warriors fan for sure.
by Shells on Jun 20, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not arguing one way or another. The “I will not offer this as an opinion of ‘very few’ or otherwise” should be taken to mean “I will not offer this as an opinion of ‘very few’ or otherwise”. I am not sure why you took this to be ANYTHING about my “arguing” with your word choice.
The figure 3.8% is difficult for most people to put into real terms. 1 in 26 is something most people have a better intuitive sense of. I don’t care if you consider it “very few” or not.
by jae on Jun 19, 2009 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calm down, “arguing” was just another questionable word choice by myself. Nothing meant by it. From where I’m sitting, you stated 1 in 26 was not “very few,” so I just assumed that you had a different sense of what very few was than I did. So I backtracked because I figured that your standards for “very few” might be less than that. As far as I was concerned, it was word choice, because otherwise we were saying the same thing. So I figured the only point of contention was the phrase “very few.” That’s all. I was not trying to undermine anything you said.
by belilaugh on Jun 19, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why no one knows nuthing - about identity and race?
by hardcore on Jun 18, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about Shane Battier?
(Doesn’t Blake Griffin resemble Shane?)
by Shells on Jun 20, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
isnt kidd milano
Cause Havoc. Bring Nash in and 120 point games will be very expected
by montadaboss on Jun 19, 2009 9:28 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Like the cookie?
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 19, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mmmmm....
Milano…
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 19, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too many Dodgers have been there….and Barry Zito.
Thing A
"Well I seriously thought he was just tanned." -Nuck Chorris
by sam23 on Jun 20, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mmmmmm.....
Milano
Thing A
"Well I seriously thought he was just tanned." -Nuck Chorris
by sam23 on Jun 20, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey is it my browser, or did some pix get selectively cut by moderators?
by hardcore on Jun 21, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think its your browser, unless there were more than 3 pics in this series of comments
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 21, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't she from that one show
with Tony Danza??? I forgot the name of it
Oakland Raiders Fan
Golden State Warriors Fan
San Francisco Giants Fan
San Jose Sharks Fan
MMA Fan
USC Trojan Fan
by i love sports101 on Jun 23, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we're drafting
jennings or hill (to make a package trade with, ie lose maggs/crawfish) or holiday
no more discussions!
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawk on Jun 19, 2009 2:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, BAP with trades in the quiver, ready to fire.
Chris Cohan and Robert Rowell? Oh no hide the children!
by Nuck Chorris on Jun 19, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
package deal
trade away crawford and maggs with the #7 pick.
Ellis to the RIM!
Monta for the win?! YES!
by XIAOXIAO on Jun 20, 2009 10:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No
package crawford and maggs only.
Oakland Raiders Fan
Golden State Warriors Fan
San Francisco Giants Fan
San Jose Sharks Fan
MMA Fan
USC Trojan Fan
by i love sports101 on Jun 21, 2009 1:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hill, Curry, Evans, or Hill, Evans, Curry
Based upon what Riley said, there’s pretty good reason to think the Dubs FO doesn’t know what’s likely to happen on the 25th much more than we do.
Re Hill:
“He’s ready to play in the NBA right now. He shoots the ball well, plays on the block and really goes after the boards. He could play for us.”
In the context of the question, “He could play for us” meant they were saying he could play in the rotation as a rookie right away, not something to be dismissed. If Hill slips to #7, the discussion probably ends there.
Re PGs:
“There’s a lot of potentially good point guards, but I don’t see any of them taking over a team, at least right away. Right now, we see Monta at the 1 (point) and Stephen Jackson at the 2. That’s how we’d start out at training camp. If we did draft a point, it would be somebody with as much experience and height as possible.”
No surprise about Monta/Jax 1-2, which is 100% in sympatico with what Nelson said earlier. No PG in this draft is going to come in and start, and GSW isn’t likely to trade for a starting caliber PG either – get used to the idea of Ellis at PG with either Crawford or a draftee backing him up.
Assuming Rubio is gone by #7, that would leave the 6-3 Curry (Jr), and Evans, (6-5 but only a freshman) as likely picks at #7. Non-PG need not apply. (Adam Lauridson’s article is reverberating – GSW under Nelson drafting to address need.)
Am still hoping they take a look at Lawson (short, but a Sr and tough and effective PG) and Blair (my dark horse candidate) if Hill’s gone.
by hardcore on Jun 23, 2009 8:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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