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Thinking too much about the draft

I've been thinking way too much about the NBA Draft recently, I figured I should share my thoughts with all of you.

First, there's this article: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/insider/news/story?id=4266076. I was just going to post a fan shot about this article, but I figured most of you didn't have ESPN Insider. It is one of the most painful, heart-wrenching stories you will ever read, because it is about the Warriors over the past 20 years. It's a short article, but I had to stop reading and leave the room on several occasions. It was too much pain and bad memories for me to take. It starts like this:

The NBA teams that have drafted well over the past 20 years and won because of it have several common traits: a definitive style of play, a stable front office and patient ownership.

The Golden State Warriors offer evidence of what you get when only a definitive style of play prevails. First of all, there isn't that much winning, no matter how exciting the style. The draft becomes a particularly painful device, because it evolves into a Groundhog Day horror show. An unheralded player is taken and almost immediately achieves sleeper status for a surprisingly robust rookie campaign. Said player is gone after a couple of years, by free agency or trade. Another gem is unearthed. He, too, slips away, spending his most successful years elsewhere. And so on. The result is almost cruel for its fan base: Five former Warriors played in the 1997 All-Star game. Four of them -- Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, Tim Hardaway and Chris Webber -- had been drafted by Golden State. Actual Warriors All-Stars gained from dealing the five?


None.



Ouch... Richmond for Owens. Webber for Guggliotta. Hardaway and Gatling for Kevin Willis and Bimbo Coles. The Choke, followed by Spree for Starks, Mills, and Cummings. Thanks, ESPN, for making relive all that pain.

The article then breaks down the history you already know. Nelson creates Run TMC. Nelson breaks up Run TMC for Billy Owens. Nelson makes up for this by getting Sprewell and Webber. Managment gets sick of Nelson's teams for flaming out in the first round of the playoffs. Team tries to bring in a defensive mindset. Rozier. Carlesimo. Adelman. Fuller. Foyle. Management decides that defense is boring, tries to bring back Nellie ball, only with completely unexperienced NBA coaches. Cowens. Mussleman. Montgomery. But it wasn't all bad:

That historical synopsis helps explain how a team could find such diamonds in the second-round rough as Gilbert Arenas and Monta Ellis, select six future All-Stars and only have five playoff appearances in 20 years to show for it. In short, they've rolled the dice on a number of explosive players with red-flagged backgrounds and without a defined position and struck gold on a couple. Good or bad, they don't stick around.

 

I think this is a really important thing to note. When the Warriors play it safe in the draft, we end up with Rozier, Fuller, Foyle, Diogu, P.O.B. When we take calculated risks, we get Sprewell, Richardson, Arenas, Ellis, and Randolph. More on this. Now, more pain:

 

The Timberwolves, for comparison's sake, have a much worse draft record in the D.R.A.F.T. Initiative analysis (-0.13 EWA per pick, good for a C-minus grade), have selected only four future All-Stars and yet have eight playoff appearances over the same stretch. The biggest difference? Minnesota landed Kevin Garnett with the fifth pick in 1995 and stubbornly built around him for 12 seasons. The Warriors traded Webber away after one season, let Arenas escape after two and have not had a player drafted in the last 20 years stay beyond Hardaway's seven seasons, which includes a full year missed with a knee injury.

 

"It shows that all of us can become impatient," says one GM of the Warriors' penchant for identifying great talent and then losing it. "We want success overnight. Sometimes it takes a whole career to measure a player's worth. Not every team is willing to wait that long to find out."

 

This breaks it down for you. I love Nelson. I think he is possibly one of the 5 greatest coaches in NBA history. But, man, he seems to have cursed this entire franchise with the great sin of impatience. I know that there are extenuating circumstances- Webber and Nellie, the choke, Arenas and the C.B.A. rules- but that doesn't excuse what can only be described as immaturity and stupidity from our management. And, by the way, we are seeing this all over again with the current Monta Ellis "Moped-gate" situation.

 

The blame ultimately lands on owner Cohan, who bought controlling interest in the team in 1994 and has presided over nine coaching changes in 15 seasons.

 

Yeah, no sh!t.

 

But it also points to the danger of having one man, Nelson, as GM and coach, roles he jointly held from 1988 to 1995. He's not the first coach eager to get rid of a player he doesn't like -- Larry Brown has an equally quick trigger -- but Brown has been saved from his impulses by a string of strong GMs. Nelson has worked for only one with the Warriors, Mullin, whose authority was effectively negated when the team signed Nelson to a two-year extension last fall and made Mullin a lame duck this past season.

 

Despite the bashing that Mullin gets from this site, this is one reason why I fear what might happen without him. You have a couple of clueless, penny pinching suits in Rowell and Cohen, and you have Nelson and a Nelson puppet in Riley. There's no one to second guess Nelson's gut, except a couple of dopes who don't know what shape a basketball is.

 

Now, let's talk about what Nelson does well: find players who fit his system and inflate their value. Or, as I like to call it, "Say hi to Anthony Morrow!!"

 

Sometimes All-Star berths and statistics can inflate a draft record, too, and the Warriors probably have some of that working for them. Another GM offered Anthony Morrow as an extreme example of how Nelson's system can create false value. Morrow, the GM said, could not play for most teams in the league because he is a poor wing defender and a subpar ball handler who would not get the necessary shots to compensate for the points he gives up on another team. Yet Morrow averaged eight shots, 10 points and 22 minutes a night for the Warriors, staggering numbers for an undrafted rookie, the third undrafted player included in the team's rotation in the past three years.

 

"They gave him confidence and made something out of him," the GM says. "But put him out on the open market and most teams would still be afraid to touch him. They're convinced he's the product of a system that made him look good. And it's a system that produces great individual numbers, not necessarily team success."

 

I'll reserve my opinion of Morrow, Azubuike, and Watson for another post, but I will say this: props to Nelson for being able to identify players who fit his system, and get them for cheap.

 

There's normally a but... in there, but this article depressed me and I'm trying to stay positive.

 

Which is just it. Despite Morrow's production, or No. 14 pick Anthony Randolph's eight double-doubles, his 7.9 ppg and 5.8 rpg in only 17.9 mpg and an EWA of 3.31 (already 0.91 ahead of the expected career average for his draft slot), the Warriors were 29-53. Meanwhile, sources say Nelson is more than willing to deal Ellis and has told Randolph he, too, might be better off somewhere else.

 

All of which means there's a good chance the Warriors are going to take a highly talented player with this year's seventh pick. After a year or two of surprisingly impressive play, he'll go elsewhere. On this prediction, Punxsutawney Phil's services aren't necessary.

 

Oh, here... You left this knife in my spine... Also, you only turned it 180 degrees, are you sure you don't want to complete the circle?

 

Can I just say, unless your getting one of the top 20 players in the league, moving Randolph or Ellis is a really, really bad idea. REALLY BAD. Hardaway and Gatling for Willis and Coles bad. Richmond for Owens bad. Richardson for Wright bad. Webber for Guggliota bad. BAD.

 

Okay, enough with the pain. ESPN's D.R.A.F.T. Intiative is actually a really nice series. I tried to replicate all the numbers they were talking about (EWA for each player vs expected EWA) only to find that they gave all those numbers if I just went a little deeper into some links. Anyhow, here's my findings, based on numbers from basketball-reference.com, and ESPN's numbers: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rY1y2ASlKsrxkw-c2b71Znw. They're a little different, but I probably screwed up somewhere.

 

History lesson done, let's talk about the current draft! This is turning into a reallly long post. Note the extra L in really.

 

The way I see it, the top 4 players in the draft (Griffin, Rubio, Thabeet, and Harden) will be gone by the time the Warriors are choosing. They could use any of those guys (especially Griffin) but oh well. After them is a lot of guys with big upsides and big downside. Let me just tell you my Big Board after those four, then tell you why:

1. Tyreke Evans

2. Brandon Jennings

3. Jordan Hill

4. DeMar DeRozan

 

First, Evans. The more I look at him, the more I pinch myself. He is a too perfect fit for this Warriors team. A 6'5" shooting guard, who is able to play point if need be (i.e. the perfect teammate for Monta), a good perimeter defender, can score at will, plays best in an uptempo system, court vision, athleticism, hits three... He's too good to be true. If he's available, we better take him. Also, check this analysis of shooting guards to see how Evans compares to Harden: http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/0809ew9.htm, and this scouting report from Minneosota to see how Evans compares to other point guards: http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/fans/draft_central_2009.html.

 

Second, Jennings. I'm a sucker for guys like Jennings. His stats were slightly above mediocre in Europe, but his youtube clips were amazing. The only analysis I need to see on him is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NpVH_ckBb8. Also, his calling out Rubio...  Awesome.

 

Third, Jordan Hill. I'm not completely sold on him yet. He has a more "NBA ready" body than Brandan Wright, and fills a need. I like the potential of an Ellis, Jax, Randolph, Hill, Beans starting 5. I also see a high chance of him being a bust. I mostly blame history (Rozier, Fuller, Foyle, Smith, Diogu, POB, Wright) for my skepticism, but Hollinger's draft rater system is low on him too: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=DraftRater-090618 (Insider)

 

Fourth DeMar DeRozan. Another guy with a potential to be a bust. See above to see that Hollinger's sytem hates him. BUT... Hollinger's system normally doesn't like one and done freshman. It didn't like Derrick Rose last year. I think ReRozan has the potential to be an elite wing player in the NBA, and elite wing players are what get you far in this league. Kobe, Wade, Manu, Pierce... They're all top wing players, and they all have a ring (to be fair, so dp Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, and Gasol, who are elite big men...) For more on DeRozan being a bust, see the Hollinger article above, for more a DeRozan being good, see here:

http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/0809ew10.htm. Also, remember what I said earlier, about the Warriors being most successful when they don't play it safe and take risks? That's what you have here. Lets just say that, if everything goes to plan, the Warriors will have a chance to draft at least one of the three guys above, but if they took DeRozan, I wouldn't be disappointed.


Now let's talk about who I don't necessarily like:
Jrue Holliday: I can't put my finger on it, I just don't think he fits well with this team. However, I'm willing to change my mind. He is a 6'4" point guard, and that would work well with Monta.

Stephen Curry: Am I the only one who looks at Curry and thinks J.J. Reddick? That's not the worst thing in the world, but it's not worth the 7th pick.
After looking into it more, this is a completely unfair comparison. I've changed my mind on Curry, I now think that he will be a decent pro in the NBA. I still don't think he's of the same caliber as Evans, but I would be happy if the Warriors drafted him. I'd probably, as of now, rate him barely behind Jennings, ahead of Hill and in some crazy opposite side of the spectrum, parallel universe relationship with DeRozan.

Johnny Flynn: I think he's overrated. As far as pure point guards go in this draft,  I rate them Rubio, Jennings (drop), Lawson, Teague, Flynn (drop), Collison, Mills. (Full disclosure: I probably rate Mills higher, but I am a heavily biased Saint Mary's alum. Go Gaels!!). I know there are people who disagree, but I don't think Flynn is that worth it here.

Terrence Williams: His name is getting thrown around a lot, and he intrigues me. But, getting him puts in between a rock and a hard place. I think he's a big reach at 7, but there are enough teams that overrate him that trading down is no gurantee. Maybe the best solution is to draft Hill, who has a lot of interest around him from teams lower in the draft, and try and trade from there. If we can move Wright to get Williams, and keep Hill, that's even better.

This ended up way longer than I would have liked, but this is my examination of Warriors drafts- past, present, and future.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Bravo!

Wow my 1st post ever was just before yours, and you left me in the dust! Awesome analysis man. Considering we all have so many stark and different opinions on this site, I can’t believe I agree with you so much. You were right on by putting Jennings above Hill, he’s just better than him period. OK Evans might be a better pick but we know he won’t be available at 7, Jennings is our guy.

And Moped-gate? HAHAHAHA Straight out of Countdown with Keith Olbermann or something, I love it. Props man. Props.

Judge: "In the case of 3 month old Tracie Taylor, we find that Dirk Nowitzki .... IS the father!"

Dirk [in Hassellhoff accent]: "That baby don't look like me!"

by AR4 on Jun 21, 2009 3:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

not to be an ass or anything

but I don’t think this is the first time someone has said “moped-gate”

by Calamity on Jun 22, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tru

I’m new here so it was my first time. Although I may have heard it before somewhere when it first happened, but it’s just still funny to me.

Judge: "In the case of 3 month old Tracie Taylor, we find that Dirk Nowitzki .... IS the father!"

Dirk [in Hassellhoff accent]: "That baby don't look like me!"

by AR4 on Jun 23, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

2 THINGS

1 WOW =0

2 Epic post

Oakland Raiders Fan
Golden State Warriors Fan
San Francisco Giants Fan
San Jose Sharks Fan
MMA Fan
USC Trojan Fan

by i love sports101 on Jun 21, 2009 4:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

ultimate punch in the gut

Scott Ostler dropped this in SFGATE.com:

I

n 1978, Auerbach drafted Larry Bird with the No. 6 overall pick. Bird was a junior at Indiana State and would stay for his senior season, but Auerbach knew Bird was draft-eligible because his class graduated (that rule was quickly changed).

The Celtics grabbed Bird and waited a year to sign him. The Warriors drafted No. 5, just ahead of Boston, and took Purvis Short.

Before the ’80 draft the Warriors traded Robert Parish (then a solid young center) and their top draft pick to the Celts for two top picks. The Warriors used their new picks on Joe Barry Carroll and Rickey Brown. The Celtics took Kevin McHale.

To review: the Warriors could have had Bird, Parish and McHale, and maybe five or six NBA titles.

Can’t really blame GSW for not picking Bird, that was a shrewd move, but trading Parrish & McHale for JB Carrol & Rickey Brown – ouch. We chould have had Short, McHale, and Parrish – and could’ve challenged for several titles … being a GSW fan = excruciating loyalty

by hardcore on Jun 21, 2009 4:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

sorry, that whole thing up to six NBA titles should’ve been blocked (need to preview!)

by hardcore on Jun 21, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Man, Red just made swindling the Warriors a hobby. That’s brutal.

I like this from the same article:

McHale became GM of the Minnesota Timberwolves and two years ago gifted Kevin Garnett to the Celtics, giving Boston at least one more NBA title. Had McHale been a Warriors’ alum, he might have sent Garnett to your Warriors.

Just keep turning the knife, Ostler…

by philthiest on Jun 21, 2009 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stephen Curry is going to be a warrior

1.Blake 2. Hasheem 3. Rubio 4. Flynn 5. Harden 6. Tyreke 7. Curry 8. Brandon Jennings 9. DeMar DeRozen 10. Jordan Hill (that is how the top 10 will play out)

by Sinigang on Jun 21, 2009 5:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

great post

thanks for posting an insider article

good analysis btw, recced! well worth the read

jennings is who we will get imo!

You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk

by LostHawk on Jun 21, 2009 5:31 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That's where we draft the best-hit the home run or strike out

I personally think Jennings has the biggest upside in the draft at PG which is why I like him. Athleticism and speed are things you just can’t teach. Evans has great size and also is very athletic and has also has great upside.

I can’t take anymore of these stupid ass trades. I have a gut feeling that we’re gonna trade either Monta or Randolph and I pray that I’m wrong. That’s really depressing that we had Parrish and Mchale too.

by Captain Jack on Jun 21, 2009 5:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I pray you’re wrong too.

If history teaches us anything, it’s that you don’t trade talent before their prime.

I agree that Jennings has the biggest upside, but I’m worried about how much of it is just hype. The last thing we want is Sebastian Telfair 2.0

by philthiest on Jun 21, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Am I the only one who looks at Curry and thinks J.J. Reddick?

no, but you should be. curry made a very successful transition from shooting guard to point guard, despite not having much talent to pass to. his game overall is much better than reddick’s ever was.

here’s a great post from our friends over at canis hoopus (the sb nation wolves blog) addressing exactly that comparison:

http://www.canishoopus.com/2009/5/15/875835/curry-and-redick-pt-i

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 21, 2009 6:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’ll admit that Curry has a much better all around game than Reddick, though I’m still not sold on him as a point guard. His ball handling and defense still raise flags, and his college numbers are inflated by him basically being his teams only option and playing in a weak conference. He seems like a guy who be at best coming off screens and playing in constant motion, ala Rip Hamilton. That said, a Rip Hamilton clone with better range wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.

I’m not totally opposed to drafting him, I just think there are better options.

by philthiest on Jun 21, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Curry actually is growing on me.

He is a basketball player, he is motivated, he has limitations but he seems like he will work to his maximum potential. He was a good college defender, and in combine he did measure out to 6-3.25 which surpised me…but i still doubt he could play in a backcourt with monta… Still he can handle and if we ran him out there with jack and a slasher we could pass fine.

And as u bring up his college stats are inflated, but the guy still shot 39% from 3’s taking 10 attempts a game his junior year when he was double and triple teamed. his freshman and sophmore year it was well over 40% when he wasnt as well known. He’s shot between 45-49% from field his whole career even though his team basically ran him like allen iverson (aka everything is on you type offense) .

by tafkasam on Jun 21, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if he’s a rip hamilton clone with better range (and whether you’re totally sold on his point guard skills or not, they’re better than rip’s), we’d be crazy to pass on him at the 7.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 21, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

curry could end up a rare exception

that a lower-risk pick can also be a high-growth one. if he’s still around at seven, they should pick him even with the intention of dealing him (this is the ‘wright commemorative pick’), and if he stays, make the best of it. the way he adapted to an expanded role shows he has the ball smarts, and his improvement under the pressure of leading a team and being the primary scorer is a sign of his character and motivation. the experts say how hard the ‘intangibles’ are to measure, but at least curry has proven he has them—what’s unknown is the same for all the aspirants, how they adapt to the mutated darwinian competition.

by the.monk on Jun 21, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I feel the biggest knock on him by GSoM'ers

is he wont fit next to Monta. Which I agree with. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt pick him.

by tafkasam on Jun 21, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

We shouldn’t not draft him because he won’t play well with Monta.

All this talk about him is making me change my opinion of him a little. I think his ceiling isn’t as high as Evans or Jennings or DeRozan, but I think those guys have a much higher potential to be busts. Looking at his numbers, he had an RSB40 of 8.30, which is a good sign that his defense might be better than I think, but it should be noted that he played mostly against lesser mid-major competition.

by philthiest on Jun 21, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dont think Curry is a poor defender

his high rate of steals shows that as well, but he would have to defend the PG. which is what monta should do. Still we bring him in, he can give us 10-12 mins a game at pg and another 10 or so off ball next to monta, that shouldnt kill us….i just hate idea of passing on someone soley cause we have someone in there position

always draft BPA

by tafkasam on Jun 22, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just don’t see where people are getting these comparisons. If anything, Reddick is a white, not long, and less athletic version of Rip Hamilton, while Curry…isn’t either of them. Reddick played off the ball at Duke. All the time. The only times he ever created shots off the dribble were still coming off a screen off the ball. That’s what Rip does. Curry was the exact opposite of this. He dominated the ball in college because frankly, if you watched them play, nobody else on that team could do a whole lot. Offensively their game just isn’t even remotely similar.

by Missing Barry on Jun 22, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Don’t rain on people’s parade by introducing real evidence and analysis, by actually trying to think about it as reality. Didn’t you hear the knee-jerk reaction? Curry is Redick 2.0.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i’m with you; i was just commenting on the comparison that was made. curry is more mo williams/mike bibby than rip or jj. though as someone pointed out, almost all comparisons are just a lazy way to avoid talking in specifics about a player’s game.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 22, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i understand the bibby/mo williams comparison, but neither dominated the ball the way Curry did in college. Now thats mostly attributable to Curry being headand shoulders above his teammates, but its still a bit unique.

Curry is also a bit taller and longer than both. at 6-3, despite lacking dominating athletism, he is capable of getting in the lane with the ball and making alot of midrangers. He reminds me in that aspect alot like stephen jackson and chris mullin. Neither blew u away with athletism, but could get inside or whereever on the court they needed. Knowing how to use his elbows and body to get around players is quite underrated, as compared to blinding athletism, there r many examples of this in the nba.

Being 6-3, he will be able to get his shot off over pgs in nba. He won’t finish at the rim, but the way he plays he could easily go off dribble and make those 6-8 footers and tear drop shots we associate with many pgs, to go along with his obvious 3 pt range and ability to come off screens midrange and deep.

i’m gonna go ahead and say he will be an above average player in this league, who in thw right situation could be a REALLY good player. He has the moxy, he has the work ethic, he’s shown ability to step up, and desire to learn and improve. I like him

by tafkasam on Jun 22, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well said.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 22, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm admitting my mistake

The more I look at Stephen Curry, the more I see my perception of him and reality are two different things. The guy can ball, no doubt about it. His key indicators show that he is an extremely capable NBA player, and I would be perfectly happy if the Warriors draft him.
Let me show you how wrong I was:
My Perception: Curry isn’t a top defender, he’s not big enough or quick enough.
Reality: Curry put up a pretty impressive 8.30 RSB/40 his junior year, placing him near the top of point/combo guards in the draft.
My Perception: Curry isn’t a good enough ball handler/facilitator to play point in the NBA.
Reality: His 6.5 A/40 prove he can facilitate, but his 4.3 TO/40, and 1.5 A/TO leave some quesiton marks.
My Perception: Curry played for a small school in a week conference.
Reality: He still put up huge numbers against OU and Duke.

So there. My bad. I was off on Curry.

Note: I still place him behind Evans. I don’t think he has the ceiling of Jennings or DeRozan, but I definitely think he’s a less risky prospect.

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Kuuuudos!

Id shake your hand if i knew you. Keep the post rolling SON! makes me cry.

by Adobo Ranger on Jun 21, 2009 9:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great post

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with everything you say, philthiest, except about Jennings. I think he’s going to be a cancer.

Confident Marco Belinelli supporter

by Doctor Kajita on Jun 22, 2009 11:37 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

great post but a couple gripes

1. why is wright seen as a bust already? he has played 2 seasons in the league. the first one involved him sitting on the bench for 95% of it. he played well in the very very limited minutes he had on the court. last season—same thing. he finally got some playing time about halfway in and played really well. unfortunately he dislocated his elbow in a freak injury. i’m bothered by people who think he is injury prone (perhaps but his injuries have been freak-type injuries) and he is a bust. give him some more time, he’s barely gotten on the court. how can everyone be so infatuated with randolph but have so much hate for wright… i loved most of your analysis but the parts about the jrich trade and a second-guessing of your like for jordan hill (pointing to brandan wright as a reason) are poor choices in my opinion. give him some more time…

2. playing it safe vs. calculated risk— i am a proponent of drafting high talent players and ‘BPAs’ instead of ‘safe’ players. however, that said i think that the way you categorized ‘playing it safe’ and ‘calculated risks’ are completely based upon their success in the NBA. POB could be considered a ‘calculated risk’ being that he was purely a developmental upside guy. diogu could be a calculated risk because he was a reach. i view diogu the same way i view someone like paul milsap. if diogu had somehow turned out to be as solid (if unspectacular) as milsap, you might consider diogu to be a ‘calculated risk’ but because he failed, he is considered a ‘safe pick’.

3. as tafkasam mentioned—‘fit with monta’. like many GSoMers have said, we need to go BPA regardless of fit. who says monta will even be on this team come next season (though i hope he is). the warriors aren’t good enough to be nitpicking and drafting for need, especially at the #7 slot, no matter how weak of a draft it is.

i apologize for the harsh nature of this post, but they’re simply nitpicks. otherwise, there was some great analysis in there and thanks for sharing that article. i saw it under the insider links and really wanted to see what bucher wrote.

also nelson’s impatience provides an interesting analysis. whereas people thought bill walsh had a quick trigger by selling/trading players close to their prime, takes this to a horrible extreme when he trades players well before their primes. also, you mentioned nellie building run TMC, dismantling it and making up for it with spree and webber. could that be happening again? nellie dismantles baron/jrich/jax. we now have monta (spree?), randolph (cwebb?) and biedrins. will management opt to go for defense again (witnessed by the proposal of raja bell for azu and beli) and break apart the core?

by gogoldenbears on Jun 22, 2009 11:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Wright is seen as a bust because he can’t stay out on the floor, plain and simple. After two seasons, 13.8 mpg says bust. When he does get on the floor, his actually a pretty efficient offensive player, has good percentages and rebounds at a fairly good rate, but a pretty awful defensive player. His numbers per 36 are in the good but not great range: 16pts, 8.7 boards. Comparing him to Randolph, AR has already played more minutes than Wright, his FG% isn’t as good, but his RB%‘s are better. Per 36, AR 15.9 pts, 11.6 boards as a rookie. He, like Wright, isn’t a good on the ball defender against other 4’s, but he brings some crazy weakside blocking ability, as evidenced by his 1.2 bpg. I like Wright, but he has to get on the floor to beat his bust rap.

I’m all for Best Player Available, but there’s not always a clear definition of what that is. Do you want the guy with the lowest probability of failure (In this draft Curry) or the guy with the highest ceiling (in this draft DeRozan)? Diogu was seen as the “safe pick” because people figured he would be able to produce, and even if he didn’t have a ceiling like, say, Bynum, he would be a decent player. This is the problem with the “safe pick” idea, is it’s not 100%. I find it heard to completely knock the POB draft, as that was a pretty to heavy draft, and we landed just outside the talent. Look at the big men after POB (Saer Sene, Hilton Armstrong, Cedric Simmons, Oleskiey Pecherov), and the other guys the W’s were high on (the only name that comes to mind is Carney) and you can see that that pick wasn’t going to fetch full value anyway. However, they drafted out of need, instead of taking the BPA (Carney, Brewer, Rondo), and they suffered for it.

I completely agree with you, the Warriors shouldn’t draft a guy JUST because he fits well with Monta, nor should they pass on a guy because he doesn’t fit well with Monta, but if the best available guy fits well with Monta, they should take him. I think the best guy of the players with some reasonable chance of being around at that pick is Tyreke Evans, who happens to fit perfectly with Monta so that’s an added bonus.

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you’re praising Randolph’s D based on weakside shot blocking, Wright’s shot blocking ability is nothing to sneeze at. He’s at 2/36 for his career. If Wright’s defense is so terrible, the team strangely isn’t worse off defensively when he’s played.

The argument that Wright is a bust because he doesn’t get playing time ignores that Nellie isn’t always a rational actor vis a vis playing time. When Nellie puts someone in the doghouse for whatever reason, it isn’t easy to get out of it. While he’s won many games as a coach and I’d say that it’s pretty clear that he usually knows what he’s doing, he makes mistakes and I think he’s made a big one in his treatment of Wright. Wright will have to get on the floor to get rid of the bust rap, but it’s not clear to me that this is possible so long as he’s playing for Nellie. Now that Randolph appears to be a better option, it’s even harder.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not saying that his status as a bust is entirely his fault, but the fact remains: He is still a bust. Pretty much anyway you slice it, too.
Justin Kubatko of basketball-reference.com just posted a system for projecting the value of a draft pick, and through 4 seasons, an 8th overall pick should gain 13.4 WS, Wright has 3.2 through 2, so he has some work to do.
ESPN has had a series a series called D.R.A.F.T initiative recently, and they have an 8th overall pick should be expected to average 3.8 Estimated Wins Added, using Holliger’s method PER based wins added method, Wright clocks in at 1.9 through 2 years.
Yes, he’s been hurt. Yes, he’s been in Nellie’s dog house. But the fact remains, he hasn’t produced, therefore, as of right now, he’s a bust.

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

total winshares are affected by playing time, so it’s a little unfair to say that wright hasn’t contributed as much as expected when he’s been injured and seems to be in nellie’s doghouse. i’d trade him if the right deal came along, but as a backup pf, he’s been pretty good in limited pt.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 22, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's EXACTLY my point

My main reasoning for calling Wright a bust is that he hasn’t been able to stay on the court.

As I said before, it’s not his fault. His percentages and per minute numbers are decent. But, for him to be considered a worthwhile basketball player, he needs to find a way to play some basketball.

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can be a good basketball player and not see the court as often as you should. if you’re calling him a bust for being injured, that seems a bit hasty to me, but i won’t argue. if you’re calling him a bust for being ineffective, that’s not the case. wright deserves to be on the court more often than he is. he’s earned it. you can’t fault him for being in nellie’s doghouse for reason unknown. not getting pt after playing well is an unfair criticism.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 22, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m going to throw my take on the situation out there. A 21 year old cannot be a bust. I mean, maybe if they’re too busy being in jail to play or out of the league or something…but all this instant fan gratification bugs me. Some players need time to develop, and sometimes fans just need to have some patience before making a judgement.

by Missing Barry on Jun 22, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it’s unfair that he is in Nelson’s dog house, but I don’t think that it’s unfair to call him a bust at this stage in his career. Also, it doesn’t mean that he can’t turn it around. There’s nothing I would like more, than to see him play decent minutes in 82 games next year and average 16 and 8, with 1.5 blocks. I’m rooting for it, believe me. But, through two seasons, he’s a bust in the same way that Greg Oden would have to be called a bust. They aren’t performing up to expectations of where they were taken in the draft.

That said, I find hard to believe Nelson doesn’t have a logical reason for not playing Wright more. It’s not impossible that he doesn’t, and I wouldn’t put it past him, but considering the Warriors don’t really have many options at PF, I would think that Wright would get more time when he’s healthy.

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just hate your bust terminology. They haven’t lived up to expectations yet. I see the “bust” label as a permanent label. Like, “looking back on their career, they were a huge bust.” It’s a very strong word to be put on a player who hasn’t met expectations by age 21.

by Missing Barry on Jun 22, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are big reasons wright doesnt see the court.

He cannot defend man to man on almost any decent pf in this league. Despite his length and athletism, often corey maggette, and buike along with jack defend the post better just cause they establish position and r strong.

While he is an efficient post scorer, and a better than avergae passer for his position, he disapears and will often not touch the ball for large periods of time.

his rebounding is WELL below average at pf. Again maggette and buike rebound better at 4 than BW.

he’s got alot of skills, and i think when he puts it together he can be an above average PF in the nba, but it will take time, and with the emergence of AR who I am positive is better suited at 4 than 3. Do we really need 2 project PFs???

by tafkasam on Jun 22, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

cont'd

i want to say despite his strengths and shortcomings, thats my biggest reason for wanting to move BWright. We don’t need 2 project PFs. And if i had to choose, i prefer AR

by tafkasam on Jun 22, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

im equally perplexed/confused

that everyone is in love with randolph just as much as i am perplexed/confused that ‘everyone’ has labeled wright a bust. it just goes to show how we are all obsessed with the latest and greatest thing and are quick to throw old trends and fads to the curb. last offseason, everyone was pining for wright to get more minutes on the strength of his performance in limited minutes late last year. this offseason, everyone is kicking wright to the curb in favor of franchise savior anthony randolph.

my point is not to dispute the potential of randolph and how well he performed when given minutes last season. i too am very excited by how he performed. however, in my opinion wright and randolph should be viewed on the same level. AR has been able to show his skills more consistently than wright ever has (for a variety of reasons) so maybe he is a little bit on top. however, they both have a lot to learn, many skills to develop before they can be anointed anything. basically i think the two should be viewed similarly. it seems now that there is a great divide between fans on how the two players are viewed (one an all-star caliber player, the other already a bust) when they are much closer in development in my opinion. sure there is probably a small divide, but not as big as fans are making it out to be.

to me there is nothing wrong with 2 project PFs as long as they can develop. you can never have too many quality players and i would rather develop them here than get rid of one and see them excel elsewhere. wright sure has potential to be a quality player in this league. they mention this in the article above. many of the warriors picks become great players elsewhere. let’s be patient and at least give wright until the end of his rookie contract… at the same time lets be equally patient in anointing randolph. many players have looked great in their rookie season and faded. furthermore, many great warrior hopes have flopped (caffey, danny fortson, etc.). please don’t misconstrue this as hate for AR, but i’m just trying to temper expectations for the moment…

by gogoldenbears on Jun 22, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and also

why does everyone think morrow is going to be an all-star as well? i don’t get it…

by gogoldenbears on Jun 23, 2009 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ray Allen shoots 3’s! Anthony Morrow shoots 3’s! If that doesn’t convince you Anthony Morrow = Ray Allen, I don’t know what will!

by Missing Barry on Jun 23, 2009 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i’m not calling wright a star or anything of the sort. he’s been a perfectly good backup 4 who deserves more minutes. i don’t directly disagree with much of what you wrote, but there’s no reason to deal him unless we’ve got another player who can play the power forward behind randolph. he’s a role player and a pretty good one. he’s not a project in the sense that he’s awful when he plays and we are waiting for him to improve drastically in order for him to deserve pt.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 22, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

fair point

i dont want to unload him for NOTHING, but if we can get value and improve our team, i would move him. Even with his future upside

by tafkasam on Jun 22, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I call shenanigans. His rebound rate is much higher than Maggette or Azubuike. Unless you can find some sort of splits to refute otherwise, I’m not going to buy that. Anyone know what the per 36 minute rebound rate of an average 4 is?

by Missing Barry on Jun 22, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

8.54TR/36

See my response below. It is based on player listing, not the position they nominally were inserted into a lineup in at the time.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

his rebounding is WELL below average at pf.

His rebounding is likely below average at PF. “WELL below” is a judgement call, (and even defining a player as a PF gets a bit tricky) but for what it’s worth, the average player I have primarily listed at PF got 8.54 TR/36. We can put it to a vote, but I don’t think too many people are going to call Wright’s 8.22 TR/36 “WELL below”.

Again maggette and buike rebound better at 4 than BW.

This is not true. Neither put up better rebounding numbers, either overall or in the time on the court where they were nominally the “PF”. Wright was worth about 2 more rebounds per 48 min game at PF than either Maggs or Azubuike were in their time at the position.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We also don’t know if Wright’s true rebounding level is closer to the 9.5 per 36 his rookie year or 8.2 per 36 his second year (though he had about double the playing time and more starts his second year).

by Missing Barry on Jun 22, 2009 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As a former Tar Heel, I’d like to believe that the rookie numbers are more telling, but based on his rebounding in college, I suspect that it was more of a fluke of small samples and garbage time misses. He does share something with two guys who defied the consistency of rebounding rates though in Garnett and Camby in that both were real, real thin when they got to the league and went from not particularly noteworthy rebounders to very, very good boardsmen. I am not predicting this for Wright, but it’s in the realm of not entirely improbable.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where do you look up college stats online?

by Missing Barry on Jun 22, 2009 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember Wright’s rebounding, but for many players, the DraftExpress profile has them.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but the fact remains: He is still a bust.

It is you opinion that he is a bust, not a ‘fact’.

The more I see of Hollinger’s EWA, the less impressed with it I am.

Essentially, the bulk of your argument is that Nellie hasn’t played him ergo “bust”. That’s a pretty thin argument given that when he’s played, he’s produced.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It appears we have differing defintions of the word "Bust"

You guys seem to think I mean a guy who flat out can’t play. I don’t. I mean a guy who hasn’t contributed to the club to the level that is expected. When Wright has played, he has contributed, but he hasn’t played enough. Minutes matter, especially for a time that had the least amount of lineup consistency in the league last year.

It’s not all Wright’s fault, injury and Nelson are more to blame than his play on its own, but until his actual numbers resemble his per 36 numbers, he has underachieved in his NBA career.

On PER and EWA: I agree with you to some extent. PER has flaws, like what you mentioned below and it’s complete lack of accounting for defense, and because EWA is an extension of PER it carries those flaws with it. But they do have merit and can tell you a lot about a player. And PER is readily available from a lot of sources as well, so that’s a plus.

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

especially for a time that had the least amount of lineup consistency in the league last year.

That should read: especially for a team that had the least amount of lineup consistency in the league last year.

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, Wrights defense:
Opposing PF’s put up 19.2 PER against him, while the Warriors in general allowed a 19.0 PER against PF’s. So congrats to Wright, he’s as good a Power Forward defender as Harrington, Randolph, Maggette, Azuibuike, Kurz, whoever else played PF for the W’s…

Also, Randolph is also a poor to awful defensive PF but he averages nearly a half block more per game (and per 36) than Wright.

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can you name many players who came into the league and were above average defenders? I’ve been following basketball for more than just a little while now and the list is short. It tends to be dominated by guys who are either absolutely huge and/or played several years of college ball. If someone is a “bust” at 21 because they’re not a good defender, then you’re going to find a whole lot of busts.

It’s also curious that you cite PER (a flawed though not entirely useless measure) noting the PER of opposing PFs when Wright is in, but do not note that his PER was better than theirs. The biggest flaw in PER is that it rewards lower efficiency shooters who shoot in high volume, though this doesn’t tend to help their teams win games. It’s perhaps more than telling that the opposing PFs have a rather low effective FG%, but take a bunch of shots. The net scoring difference is a slight edge for the opposition, but it takes far, far more shots for them to achieve this, meaning they’re eating up shots (at a low rate of return) and detracting from the offensive output of their teammates.

I’d encourage you to learn more about the relative value of a half a block shot in terms of its influence on a team’s win probability. It is not great.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You’re right, they’re aren’t a whole lot of above average defenders coming out of college. However, there are a lot of average defenders who earn playing time.

The only player I can think of who came into the league and played as little as Wright has and then turned into a productive player is Jermaine O’Neal. Brandan Wright is going to be 22 this year, if he can get close to the 12.9/9.8 line that O’Neal put up when he turned 22, I’ll be a lot happier. As of right now, his numbers are strikingly similar to another Warrior PF who put up big time per minute numbers and percentages, but hasn’t been able to crack a teams rotation: http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=pX6AY

by philthiest on Jun 22, 2009 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lowest failure

many people thought BRoy was a low risk low ceiling pick cause he played 4 years of college. Alot of the knocks on Curry are simply cause he is 21 and shown something. They think he cant do anything else, where as younger talents like DeRozan are still a bit enigmatic, like Randolph. Certain bursts of talent then alot of inconsistancy.

Alot of ther issue with Diogu was he was very undersized PF with questionable athletism, poor leaping ability. In Reality we drafted a Tyler Hansborough type there… Curry, thought not an athletic marbel, knows how to get everywhere on the court, has shown ability to be a good defender and is not undersized for a pg

by tafkasam on Jun 22, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

From what I’ve seen, most players, regardless of the age where they were drafted, see their biggest improvement in scoring and scoring efficiency around age 22 and 23. There’s very few players taken after 1 or fewer years in college who improve substantially before that point. That’s clearly not all of the game (although scoring is a whole lot of what people regard as success). Still it seems interesting that guys who had more time in college don’t seem to be lacking in “upside” in terms of improving quite a bit once they hit the NBA.

(Note: how much these guys improve when they improve is a different issue altogether and it may be that those guys picked as the greater talents who entered the league earlier tend to improve more when they take a leap forward in productivity. I’ve yet to look at that in depth.)

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hansbrough isn’t really undersized for a PF, nor, at least by the combine figures, does he appear particularly ‘unathletic’. That was a knock on him before he went to the combine and was actually measured better than most expected. For what it’s worth, he measured taller in shoes than David West and Ronny Turiaf and exactly the same height as Villanueva, Boozer, Wilcox, Brand and Kevin Love. All had an inch point five on Diogu’s measurement. For what it’s worth, Hansbrough had a higher vertical than all of the aforementioned as well (no data for Brand).

We didn’t draft a Tyler Hansbrough type. We drafted a shorter guy who was much slower and couldn’t jump as high.

by jae on Jun 22, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would like to have hansbrough

but about the post, i think thats something that all warriors fans new, it just needed to be said in a great (but not so great for the warriors) article like that. An absolutely amazing post

by bizz 192 on Jun 22, 2009 7:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

And Randolph is a keeper

i just dont like the draft strategy and drafting randolph and wright, only one can play at once and we used lottery picks/J-Rich for them. And i wouldn’t mind trading Monta, but as long as we got a proven star in the trade, not draft picks or a guy that isnt that good yet but has “potential.”

by bizz 192 on Jun 22, 2009 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definition of a 'Bust'

from philthiest:

You guys seem to think I mean a guy who flat out can’t play. I don’t. I mean a guy who hasn’t contributed to the club to the level that is expected.

According to most of the ‘expectations’ around here, just about every player on the GSWs would be a ‘bust’ then.

by miguelito on Jun 23, 2009 4:03 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

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