Golden State Of Mind: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Follow the @sbnation NHL Twitter List

Rebuttal to Adam Lauridsen's: "Amare Stoudemire: Corey Maggette Redux?"

Why am I posting a rebuttal to another blog here? Because Adam Lauridsen is still listed as a GSoM front-page writer and the Merc's blog system isn't set up to handle the length of argument I want to write.

That said, I haven't seen this type of post here before, so I am a bit leery of posting it. I'm also not sure if this violates some unwritten blogger etiquette, if so, I apologize and I'll be happy to delete it.

Original Article


The Warriors are fond of repeating their mistakes. The rumored trade for Amare Stoudemire would be just another example of the team's lack of creativity when it comes to poor decision making. Last summer Baron Davis defected to LA and left the team desperate to land a big name player. Arenas and Brand said no to Cohan's millions, but Corey Maggette said yes.

What do the proposed Stoudemire trade, Baron Davis leaving and the Maggette singing all have in common? If you answered "not much", you'd be correct. Lauridsen disagrees . . .


Although the Stoudemire extension and trade wouldn't be as big a mistake as the Maggette signing, there are plenty of less-than-flattering comparisons to consider when evaluating the move.

I don't actually accept that the Maggete singing was a mistake. He's an incredible scorer, rebounds decently and can play defense when motivated (read: like most NBA defenders). He's great in his sixth-man role. The salary is probably a bit high, but not unmovable, especially in a year or two (see Crawford, Dunleavy & Murphy).


Team needs - Last summer the Warriors needed a replacement point guard, a real power forward and improved defense. Corey Maggette answered none of these needs. Arguably, he made them all worse - killing ball movement, giving Nellie a smaller mismatch option at PF that displaced Randolph and Wright in the rotation, and playing defense only Jamal Crawford could love.

The Warriors offered Arenas and Brand huge contracts, those were the best "replacement point guard" and "real power forward" available on the market. It's not like they didn't try to address those needs. They also had two lottery picks with upside in Wright and Randolph at the PF.

The one true statement is that he killed ball movement when he was in the game and starting, which was 19 games. Off the bench, he's asked to score. How games did he start at PF? 9. Why was he starting at PF? Because the team's options were Wright, who started when healthy and giving effort, an out-of-control, insubordinate and turnover-prone Randolph and Turiaf who was the only back-up center. That was actually a good spot to use Maggette since he did have the mismatch on offense and, when your PF has a mismatch on offense, you don't want him to pass unless a double-team comes. I fail to see the error in judgment here. Maggette actually gave his best defensive effort when at PF which is in no reasonable way comparable to the complete absence of defensive effort from Crawford. That's just a dishonest comparison.

This summer, we've solved our power forward issues with Randolph's development and have a potential point guard fix in Curry, but still need to improve dramatically our team defense. Stoudemire does nothing to solve our defensive problems - and like Maggette, probably makes things work [sic].

Correction: Don Nelson and Anthony Randolph solved "our" power forward issues with Randolph's development. I make this point here because he criticizes Nelson throughout without giving him credit for sitting Randolph, sometimes in favor of Maggette, until he practiced hard and played under control. If Randolph readily admits this was the best thing for him, why is it so hard for the media? Randolph has done his part by reportedly working like a madman in the gym.

As far as defense goes, you can play Stodumire along side Turiaf or Randolph which gives you one good 6-10 defensive player with an elite offensive player who can block shots. With Randolph, you get the rebounding too. Does Lauridsen want Emeka Okafor to play along side of Turiaf or Randolph? What availible player would be a better fit?

If Nelson plays him out of position at center, we lose our best remaining defensive player in Turiaf. If Nelson plays him at his true position, power forward, we lose minutes for the only reason most people still care about this franchise, Anthony Randolph.

Didn't Phoenix play him primarily at center for when they were a really good team, playing a knock-off of Nellie-ball? He's almost assuredly going to be the starting center here if he comes. There is absolutely no reason that he can't play along side Randolph or Turiaf. This is a non-argument supported by nothing.

You can argue we have a need for low post scoring - although Nelson's teams have always favored slashing and jump shooting over post offense and have made no effort to develop their post players. Assuming we have such a need, it's not clear that Amare would meet it all that well given his gradually increasing reliance on his jump shot (don't take my word for it - check out 82games.com, which lists 55% of Amare's shots as jumpers). Most of Amare's inside points come from put-backs and dump-off passes - two areas Biedrins and Randolph had adequately covered last season. The end result, as with Maggette, is a player that duplicates our current strengths while potentially making our weaknesses even worse.

This paragraph is illogical. First, It starts out criticizing Stodumire for taking too many jump shots, which is not a bad thing considering his high FG%. The other advantage to an efficient, jump-shooting center is that the opposing center must come away from the basket to guard him which opens up the lane for drivers like Monte, Bukie and the dreaded Maggette.

Then he says that Stodumire duplicates what Biedrins and Randolph bring to the table as an inside scorer. Biedrins would leave in every Stodumire trade scenario so what's wrong with replacing his high-efficiency inside game and adding the jump-shooting dimension. It's not duplication if Biedrins isn't here to be duplicated. Also, it apparently isn't duplication if it is Biedrins and Randolph playing together with the same inside game but it is with Stodumire.

Talent displacement - If we learned one thing from the 08-09 season, it was that Nelson would go to great lengths to play his veterans ahead of Randolph, Wright, and even Biedrins in the low post. For the first two-thirds of the season we saw Maggette, Azubuike and even Jackson on occasion at power forward. The results were rarely impressive, but Nelson repeatedly returned to his one big man line-up. Adding Maggette to the line-up didn't occur in a vacuum. His addition caused a minute squeeze, with the players arguably in the best position to help the Warriors in the future losing out.

Again, Wright started when he was giving effort and healthy. Randolph wasn't ready to play (see above) and Andris played a career-high 30 minutes per game. Turiaf also set a career-high in minutes. Jackson started 10 games at PF, Buike 6 (seems like it was more). Again, Maggette started all of 9 games at PF so I'm not sure what "great lengths" Nelson went to other than to assess the situation and try different things to see if they would work.

With Amare, Nelson would gain a veteran big who can score. The team wouldn't be giving him max money to ride the bench, so I'd expect his minutes to be heavy (and considerably greater than Andris' playing time last year). With Stoudemire pulling major minutes at center, however, we have no reason to believe Nelson would suddenly back away from his one big man approach.

He'd start and center and Nelson would likely start Randolph next to him. How is that bad?

Maggette, Azubuike and Jackson would still be on the team. We've added two guards - Law and Curry - who are likely to see time in the rotation.

Versatility and flexibility aren't bad things. Nelson will play Maggette and Jackson. If there aren't enough minutes to be had at the 2 and 3 for everyone, then Azubuike will likely be the odd man out. I also don't see a problem with Maggette backing up the 4 for specific matchups. Law could be the 12th man on this team, so listing him as a factor in the Amare argument is kind of a reach.

It's not at all hard to imagine a Stoudemire-led team where Randolph and Turiaf are getting fewer minutes than they did to close the 08-09 season.

It's not hard to imagine a lot of things, but it is hard to make an argument as to what would cause this to happen.

Under this reading of Nelson's habits, the Stoudemire move doesn't help us become a more balanced team. It only helps Nelson roll out a more offensively potent small-ball line-up. Of course, that approach may make the Warriors a better team than they were in 08-09 (setting the bar low here), but the pro-Amare partisans out there should consider the possibility that the trade could enable Nelson in his small ball tendencies and result in Randolph once again spending heavy minutes on the bench.

How is starting Stodumire at center and Randolph at PF with 6-8 Jackson at SF or SG "small ball"? How did Randolph end up on the bench?

There are sections on "ball-movement" and "team chemistry", which I'm going to skip do to the length of this and because I don't disagree with the particulars but I disagree with the premises and the conclusions which can't really be effectively argued as both sides of the discussion would be heavily rooted in speculation.

Injury history - Corey Maggette also came to the Warriors with a reputation for being fragile. Once again, he lived up to his history in the league with an assortment of injuries keeping him out of 31 games. Stoudemire eventually bounced back from the micro-fracture surgery, but racked up another potentially chronic and career threatening injury last year with his detached retina. Micro-fracture surgery has improved since the days of Jamal Mashburn and Alan Houston, but there's still considerable risk of re-injuring the knee. Zach Randolph, former poster boy for microfracutre recovery, missed extended time this season with soreness in his left knee, the same one that was operated on in 2005. Since the surgery is relatively new, there's simply not much information on how a repaired knee will hold up through the roughly 400 games we'd be signing Amare to play on a five-year contract. There are injury risks with all players. Amare for 60 games a season is a lot better than many players for 82, but as with Maggette we'd need to go into the contract with our eyes open regarding the potentially catastrophic risks.

I don't think anyone is arguing that's not a risk. It's a decent argument against trading for him although I doubt most of us know the long-term prognosis for a detached retina and the newer microfracture surgery.

Ultimately, the Amare trade is a closer call than the Maggette signing because Stoudemire is a better player. Just as the Warriors were arguably better this season with Maggette getting some minutes than if they hadn't had his production at all, the Warriors with Amare should win a few more games in the immediate future than if they didn't have him. But fixating on small gains in the immediate future is exactly the type of short-sighted reasoning that has led Cohan and company into the same mess year after year.

I'm not entirely sure how this trade, barring injury, doesn't set this team up for a good 3-4 year run, considering the fact that they'd have to extend Amare at least 3 years past his option. The rest of the team is under contract or, at worst, RFAs over that span. So how far long-term should the Warriors be thinking?

Swapping Biedrins for Stoudemire doesn't help the Warriors in the areas the areas of most significant need (point guard play, defense), poses a significant risk of stifling the "internal development" we usually hear so much about during the off-season, doesn't get us a stand-alone star capable of elevating the play of his teammates (Amare has only won with Nash, Marion or Shaq playing leading roles), and will kill our flexibility for the long-term to make a move if/when a real difference maker, addressing our real needs, becomes available.

Defense is the same issue with or without Amare. The Warriors retain their best two interior defenders in Turiaf and Randolph so it doesn't hurt them that much. They drafted a point guard and traded for another one so that area has been reasonably addressed. I'm not sure which "real difference-maker" he's expecting to come along but I'd rather the team take a shot with that team rather than sitting on cap flexibility just in case "real difference maker" becomes available. That doesn't sound like an actual strategy.

Warriors fans are understandably suspicious of being patient, given our history of waiting only to get nothing in return. The roster as it stands today, however, has more young talent locked up for the foreseeable future than any Warriors' squad since RUN-TMC and Webber. To my eyes, that talent simply needs this year (and probably a new coach) to turn the corner into a perennial playoff threat.

Where did the "new coach" shot come from? You mean the only good coach this team has had in 20 years? What better coach is out there and why would he be a better fit for this roster, with or without the trade? What other available coach would have stood up to Randolph and produced the best resolution for everyone involved? That's just a cheap-shot that makes no sense. How is it not clear what's been happening here? Do people think the team went from 34 wins to 42 to 48 to rebuilding for 1 year (completely improvised since Baron and Monta were supposed to be there) to now when we see a really good roster taking shape? Do people think this is a coincidence? How about the last time Neslon was here? Or when he took an abysmal Dallas team from garbage to an elite team? It's time to give Nelson some credit for some of the good things he's done. Calling for his replacement at this point is misguided at best.

The decision to blow this team apart for a questionable win-now acquisition like Stoudemire simply because we're tired of being patient is precisely the type of move we've bemoaned in the past and blamed for keeping the franchise from becoming a consistent winner. Simply because the team needs change does not mean that any change is in the team's long-term interests. We made that mistake with Corey Maggette - and we're about to make it again.

Trading your starting center for an arguably better starting center and throwing in your backup PF and 5th guard is not "blowing up the team". With or without the trade, the Warriors should be a pretty good team this year and even better over the next 3 years. That's long-term enough for me.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

14 recs  |  Comment 148 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

When I tried to read Adam's rant

it went on and on rambling incoherranty in a manner similar to his little buddy Timmy K. Pretty much sounded like the teachers voice on Charlie Brown,,,,,waaa,,,waaa,,,waaaa. I agree with your rebuttal almost 100%. even the props you sent out to Corey as a 6th man. Not sure how one can make a trade for a star player without sending out some of our own talent. Apparently Adam doesn’t get it.

by Crab Ddribble Cocktail on Jun 30, 2009 8:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Strangely

Even before reading your clips from the Lauridsen piece, BSD, the specter of Maggs had been haunting me. A less good player at a less valuable position, but still: a skilled, athletic guy lauded for his offensive “efficiency” and “productivity” who doesn’t pass or play D or pass particularly well; and, consequently, never seems quite beloved by his team’s fans. Another specter who haunts me is Al Jefferson, a PF with dominating post moves who always looks better on the STAT (er, stat) sheet than he does on your team. Compare that to Garnett, who took a big dip in his numbers when he came to Boston, but brought it defensively every second, set up his teammates and made them better, and a got a shiny ring to show for it. Is STAT more Al Jefferson or more Kevin Garnett? Seems like a pretty easy question to me, alas.

Which is to say, today, I basically agree with Lauridsen’s take. While jae and others seem to have come around to a pro-trade position, I’ve come back around to anti. For today anyway…

Anyway, awesome diary BSD, even if (for today) I’m more with Lauridsen than with you on this one.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 9:03 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I don't know what to do!

So initially I was definitely pro-Amare trade (before Curry’s name got involved) Then jae and others pulled me back across to the anti-Amare trade and everything seemed to make sense. Then I find out jae is actually on the pro-Amare (but keep Curry) side, BSD and DFiB have also presented some good reasons FOR Amare in the last couple days, Adam and Sleepy are still against………. Its the type of battle of the “nothing better to do but talk about the warriors” titans that you don’t really see very often.

Obviously this is the only way for GSoM to settle it-

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I don't know what to do!

Circulating pictures of children on the internet is usually a bad place to start.

Honestly, I won’t devastated if this doesn’t happen because I think the team, as constructed, is pretty good and has the chips to make a future trade.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Circulating pictures of children on the internet is usually a bad place to start.

C’mon, it’s the only way to truly recognize MJ’s passing. Too soon?

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you hear that one about Farrah’s dying wish being that all children in the world be kept safe…?

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Cold...

I just find it depressingly hilarious that her death was completely and utterly overshadowed in 30 minutes.

Too bad Mike’s death was also overshadowed way too quickly

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha

Was it weird that I was way more upset to hear that my favorite pitchman had passed than MJ? I went out back and sprinkled some Oxy-Clean in the dirt to honor his memory…

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 30, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

billy mays

the michael jackson of pitchmen

I'm gametime_gsw, and I approve this message.

by gametime_gsw on Jun 30, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha

To me, its hearing that Farrah’s dying wish “being that all the children in the world be kept safe”, then Micheal Jackson dying later that day.

Dont get me wrong, Im a Micheal Jackson fan, but thats just funny and weird coincidence.

by WBGSW on Jul 2, 2009 5:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It certainly would be a weird coincidence. ;-)

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 2, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s the kind of thinking that got the Bulls into their situation.

Fortunately for them, they were lucky enough to jump way up in the draft to get Rose, otherwise they’d be stuck in perpetual putridity.

Thing C

by markdash on Jun 30, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember how they were the “next big thing” before the 07-08 season then it all went to hell, which got them a high pick and got the Derrik Rose. That never seems to work out that way here . . .

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly, I won’t devastated if this doesn’t happen because I think the team, as constructed, is pretty good and has the chips to make a future trade.

Thats pretty much the way I feel, except its why I’d be more likely to nix the deal. I won’t be devastated if it does happen, but I think our young pieces may be able to get us something better later. Of course, like markdash points out, that is exactly what the Bulls have been saying about all their young pieces for years.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yay Sam!

Not only am I a closet republican, but we pretty much agree here!

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m the kid in dark blue in the background (second from left), probably chillin’ out with my Mattel electronic basketball game. Man, I was unbeatable at that.

Is that you in the upper right giving WS110 a “shirt-wedgie”?

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was totally gonna call that kid, yea. I want to know who the lazy 4th kid from the bottom is…. and who is the adult/older kid in all black?

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope that’s just a shirt wedgie.

by ffgolden on Jun 30, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

At this point, I don’t care what management does so long as they think the problem through carefully. If they get stuck on the “but we need a superstar” as the heart of their reasoning for it, I’m against it. If they get stuck on the “but what if so-and-so develops” as the heart of their reasoning against it, I’m bothered by that as well.

I guess if there weren’t questionmarks around this a) we wouldn’t hesitate about the deal and b) the Suns wouldn’t be dealing him.

by jae on Jun 30, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: so long as they think the problem through carefully

This is why I like Nelson in charge instead of Mullin. Nelson has demonstrated the ability, especially in rebuilding Dallas, to think a couple moves down the road.

I always felt like Mullin was reacting whereas Nelson has a track record of executing a strategy.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

+1

there sure has been a lot of whining about Don Nelson being “secretly” in charge considering his track record.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If they get stuck on the "but we need a superstar" as the heart of their reasoning for it, I’m against it. If they get stuck on the "but what if so-and-so develops" as the heart of their reasoning against it, I’m bothered by that as well.

 
Could not have said it better. If we can keep Curry I think I am in. If Amare works out and is top 3 big man in the league we are going to be in the playoffs for the next few seasons. If it doesnt we are totally screwed for the next 4 years(atleast). If we keep this roster that we have then we are probably looking at 3 to 4 seasons of 35-40 wins unless management makes some good moves to compliment our youth. Looking at the options, I dont trust management espicially when Nellie is gone in a year or so. If we can get Amare and he works out and we can be a force in the west, screw lets do it. Thats the only realistic way I see that we can be a consistent playoff team in the near future.

Thing B

by warriorsscore110 on Jun 30, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

If we keep this roster that we have then we are probably looking at 3 to 4 seasons of 35-40 wins unless management makes some good moves to compliment our youth.

Enough with the “compliment”, it’s complement, and I’m too tired of it to make a snide joke.

And there are plenty of other ways to get better. In 2-3 years, Jax & Maggs start being expiring contracts. In 2-3 years, either Monta or Curry should be at least “PG-esque”, and Randolph may be very very good. 35-40 wins a season is a legitimate possibility, but it’s more of a worst case scenario (barring a career ending injury) than an expectation. If we don’t make this trade, Toronto may want to move Bosh & Bargnani toward the deadline for Biedrins and Maggette, or… or… we’ll still have our trade pieces, and they’ll still be valuable young players.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I might be too scared of a large Bargnani extension combined with Bosh leaving to like that trade….. but yea I agree that it might be best to wait and see if someone rather unexpected becomes available this season to throw our trade chips at.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was using Bargnani as contract filler

Looking at it, I too would be scared of Nellie wanting to give him an extension though… might be best to look elsewhere.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry about the grammer error,

anyway I am beginning to think that Amare not wanting to come here will be a blessing in disguise. hopefully Riley/Nelson are busy on the phones looking for other deals but at the same time not under any order from RR or CC to make some type of splash for the sake of doing so.

Thing B

by warriorsscore110 on Jun 30, 2009 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually i guess it was a spelling error not a grammer error,

didnt want to give you the oppurtunity to get me for that : )

Thing B

by warriorsscore110 on Jun 30, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice rebuttal

Bloodsweatndonuts — thanks for taking the time to dig into my piece. I think you put far too much faith in Nelson playing a traditional line up (i.e. two bigs), discount the negative impact Amare’s lack of passing/court vision will have on the offense, and largely ignore the defensive drop-off in a switching system when we lose Andris. That said, this trade is a close call for many of the reasons you discuss. I’ll be as happy as anyone if Amare arrives and proves to be the solution for this team, but I see too many of the same warning signs from prior failed transactions to get my hopes up.

by Adam Lauridsen on Jun 30, 2009 9:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Adam fanboy alert!

Hey Adam, as long as you’ve ventured onto the mighty GSoM, I feel compelled to tell you that in terms of hoops insight, balance, depth, and quality of prose, I’ve always considered you the Best Warriors Writer on the planet. Bar none.

 (I think I may have told you this on your site, but there you don’t get the catchy visual aid). ;-)

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I’ve always considered you the Best Warriors Writer on the planet.

Man, Rdizzle is going to be hurt . . .

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention, RDizzle’s sidekick, JAE.

Yeah, I was going to leave off the superlative, but then I couldn’t have posted the pretty William Floyd, pic.

At the very least I should have specified, “Best Warriors Writer, non-GSoM division.” Clearly Adam is no match for the likes of oldskool, Iggy, and mydedgerbil55.

So I guess what I really mean is: Lauridsen isn’t quite as horrible as Ray Ratto. ;-)

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn you, BSD.

You owe me a new cup of coffee now that I’ve laughed mine out my nose…

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ouch

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Turn your head and coffee.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any hug involving Ray Ratto should be considered a "groupchin hug".

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

should be considered a “groupchin hug” seldom.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

No no no

Now I can’t speak for my “sidekick” jae, but I will say this…

Adam’s the man.

I give credit when credit is due.

I think you guys have yet to realize that I’m using GSoM to work on my stand up routine. Some of my jokes are pretty money….

We still believe!!

Follow me on Twitter! Username - RDizzleGSoM

by R Dizzle on Jun 30, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Sleepy...

…for the very kind words. I would have quit this whole blogging deal a long time ago if it weren’t for the community of Ws fans, at GSoM and all the other sites. Whether they agree with me wholeheartedly or keep me on my toes by challenging my analysis, it’s the discussion that makes all this fun and worthwhile.

by Adam Lauridsen on Jun 30, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the thing about Neslon and size

He won’t play a player because just because he’s big, but he also doesn’t refuse to play big players, just big players without skill and know-how. It’s about effectiveness, not about size. It has nothing to do with “tradition”, I just see AR and Amare as compatible on the floor together because AR makes up for some of Amare’s deficiencies. They kind of compliment each other. That said, they’ll still get eaten alive by elite big men, but there are not that many of those (apparently one less in Houston)

I’ll be the first to admit, I do have a lot of faith in Nelson. But this is because of his track record of success, his philosophical approach and the specific circumstances surrounding his failures. I am a “fan” but not a blind one. I like his thought process and I like watching his style of play, I also think the guy can assess talent with the best of them.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, that was very nice of you. I do appreciate the time you take putting together your pieces even if I don’t agree with some of them.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

They kind of compliment each other.

Kind of compliment? Like a slight “w’sup backwards head-nod” or were you envisioning something else, like a half hearted shoulder level high five without eye contact? I suspect that Randolph might have nice things to say about Amare, but does Stoudemire even know who Randolph is? Why would he pay him any compliments?

by jae on Jun 30, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was good.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good times...

good times.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

David Ortiz got you a rec

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I knew Big Papi was old

GSOM- Where Education From Debate Happens

by The Dedication on Jun 30, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They kind of compliment each other.

Just like BSD and Adam do when they argue about the Amare trade.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amusing, I didn’t know that I could disagree vehemently with both a blog post and its rebuttal. It just goes to show you, I guess.

Thing C

by markdash on Jun 30, 2009 9:23 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m morbidly curious . . .

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the Amare Stoudemire trade has almost nothing in common with the Maggette signing. One involves trading assets for an established superstar, the other was overspending in a desperation move. The warriors are not currently desperate (and in fact will probably wait out the Suns to get a better offer).

But I also think Maggette is pretty bad and disagree with almost all of what you said about him, especially regarding his contract. Saying “he’s overpaid but he’s movable, especially in a year two” is basically the same thing as saying “he’s unmovable.” That contract is an albatross.

Thing C

by markdash on Jun 30, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

So you disagree with both of us on the first paragraph.

Do you disagree with the other 95% of what I wrote? I don’t blame you if you couldn’t make it that far though, it’s pretty long and unentertaining. It’s like watching The English Patient while reading stereo instructions.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I guess I wasn’t giving you enough credit, but when I read something like “Maggette’s contract is not that bad” or the equivalent, I tend to automatically disagree with whatever comes next, even if it’s something like “Basketball is entertaining” or “Lakers suck.”

Thing C

by markdash on Jun 30, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually almost skipped that part since I knew it would turn a lot of people off (you have to be a pretty special Warrior to get booed at home) but I thought it was necessary for the “integrity of the analysis” whatever that means. I didn’t want to do any populist manipulation, just lots of really really boring text.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t want to do any populist manipulation, just lots of really really boring text.

Not a campaign speech writer, I’m guessing… maybe an accountant?

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amare isn't the answer but he's part of the answer

I repeating myself like a broken record. This trade alone will only help us slightly but in combination with another move or acquisition and we will have a serious team. My guess is that Nellie and Riley are on the same page here.

by Balance on Jun 30, 2009 10:01 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I can definitely see that.

A poor man’s version of what Boston did… great.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Luckily we have the poor-man’s Ray Allen already in Morrow, the broke-man’s Paul Pierce in Jackson (if rebounds were legal tender) and the sad-man’s KG in Randolph. So Amare would be a rich man’s Kendrick Perkins?

If nothing else, this should end any speculation as to my alleged career in accounting.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amare isn’t the answer but he’s part of the answer

It doesnt work that way. If we give up Beidrins and company for Amare and hand him a max contract for the next 6, we are going all in on him. We wont have cap room for the next 5 years. If Amare is not the answer we shouldnt make the trade.

My take, I dont know if Amare is the answer and there is a good chance that he isnt, but I say we do and hope for the best.

Thing B

by warriorsscore110 on Jun 30, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is Cap room the only way to aquire different players? What happend to trades? What exactly are you talkning about anyway? Are we discussion numbers here? Did I miss something?

by Balance on Jun 30, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Adam + bloodsweatndonuts- Nice work guys. Really enjoyed the reads.

Adam- The people have spoken and they want a Golden Break comeback!

by Atma Brother ONE on Jun 30, 2009 10:20 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think this says it all, really
For rational, non-homers who realize AB, BW & MB/KA are not going to be star players, the 3 reasons for being against this trade is if it can be proved that Amare’s production & efficiency is dependent on Nash or if Curry has star potential or the potential to be a good PG. His health will be verified through the physical and his extension should be worked beforehand.

The only part I don’t get is the bit about Curry. Are you assuming he’d be included in the trade? I think it’s pretty widely known that Curry has star potential, the question is: Will it manifest? We’ll see how it pans out, but I’m going to be sad if Curry is included in the deal. Wright still has potential, but that’s why he still has enough value to make the trade work.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow, I cant believe me and DFiB are relatively on the same page,

If we can make the trade for AB, BW, MB, and KA we should make the deal. And I think that is a relatively fair deal as well. We’ll see how this plays out, but if Steve Kerr is thinking he is going to win a staring match over Nellie over Curry he is going to loose.

Thing B

by warriorsscore110 on Jun 30, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

And I think that is a relatively fair deal as well.

It’s as fair as Phoenix is going to get.

And in reality, it’s not fair… either way. We’re going to get an overpaid, whiny PF with an injury history, and they’re going to get 75c on the dollar for a really good player. I’m just getting ready to enjoy the now, because the future is either going to be really rosy or desolate and devoid of any and all hope for the fututre.

At this point, I’m just mentally preparing myself for the worst: Deep breath… deep breath… “It’s going to be OK, maybe you’ll be able to wean yourself off of GSoM and actually learn to be productive at work.” Deep breath…

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We’re going to get an overpaid, whiny PF with an injury history,

Uggh, everytime I think I am ready to go all in with Amare, I think 95/5 extension for a semi head case with a injury history. I still do it, but its like hitting on 14, when the dealer is showing a 7. I am definetly squirming a bit.

they’re going to get 75c on the dollar for a really good player.

Definetly now, as Amare’s agent is saying that he will accept an extension from the Suns and the Suns are instead instead looking to trade him and rebuild around someone else. The Suns are not going to get anything better. They can act like the are intrested in this Josh Smith Atlanta package but we all know they are not.

Thing B

by warriorsscore110 on Jun 30, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Uggh, everytime I think I am ready to go all in with Amare, I think 95/5 extension for a semi head case with a injury history. I still do it, but its like hitting on 14, when the dealer is showing a 7. I am definetly squirming a bit.

That is an amazing summation of the situation. It’s exactly how I feel. Something you have to do, but it’s fraught with peril.

Thing C

by markdash on Jun 30, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh

And:

wow, I cant believe me and DFiB are relatively on the same page,

Seriously, we’re both relatively intelligent people. We know a thing or two about basketball. We just happen to be on the opposite side of the fence about something you feel very strongly about (Maggette).

I am not in the least surprised that you agree with me on this proposition.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In rereading that, I sound pretty dratted conceited

Let me rewrite that:

Seriously, we’re both relatively intelligent people. We know a thing or two about basketball. We just happen to be on the opposite side of the fence about something we both feel very strongly about (Maggette, and you feel more strongly negative than I feel positive).

I am not in the least surprised that we agree on this proposition.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

where the heck have you been?

I’ve been so lonely, I must confess to some “massive-agreement cheating” with cap.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry about the absense,

things were a little messy in my life and my ridiculuos obsession with a basketball team that has been comidically bad for the last 15 years might have been part of the problem, so i took a break. It seems like I decided to jump back in just at the right time.

Thing B

by warriorsscore110 on Jun 30, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Biedrins, but Stoudemire, no matter how lazy he is, can’t be as bad at defending pick & roll as Andris is.

You underestimate lazy.

by jae on Jun 30, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I once read a chatroom thread on the topic “How lazy are you?” The example that always sticks in my head from it is a poster who said that once, in a cold house in the dead of New England winter, he let himself shiver and freeze all night long under a skimpy little blanket because he was too lazy to get up and walk ten feet to the closet to get another blanket. I don’t think I’ve ever taken laziness quite that far, but I feel like I’m totally capable.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: You underestimate lazy.

If Derrick Coleman weren’t napping on a stack of cash right now, he’d +1 you.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

ask yourself, do you even watch enough Suns games to make this statement?

would Suns fans who make these statements say this if they watched our defense 82x?

Andris gives effort, usually reads it correctly, yet cannot guard pick & roll.

and sometimes it’s better to be super lazy like Shaq and let a guy take an open jumper as opposed to letting a guy take a corner or split the double with a clear path to the basket. now if you think Andris is good at defending pick & roll, you know as much about pick & roll as Lebron does.

by homer simpson on Jun 30, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you Homer. Good post. I’m glad this trade is not a vote because we got a lot of people on board here with out balls. Ya, that’s right I said it.

Amare might get hurt? What are we mothers on here? He cost to much money? Don’t all great players? Who’s our better option? Who want’s to come to OAK?

I’m so sick of all you Wuss winkles, whatever that means. Let’s get some All start talent for once in the last 15 years, and please get over Mr. Hair gell and tanning Bed, softy. Sorry Goose, I do like you but not as much as Amare.

by Balance on Jun 30, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Another onlxn gem

This is another one of those quality fanposts w/ quality comments that make it very difficult to be productive at work.

by ffgolden on Jun 30, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

A REC to both of you

I’m quickly and quietly coming around on STAT. I still retain the right to be deeply sad if two things happen:

1. We give away Curry (Lets at least get a lotto protected #1 in return for him, at the very least we could use that as a trade chip)
2. We give STAT 18M/year with 10% raises every year.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we’d all be pretty bummed if #1 comes to pass. Happily, I think Nellie & Co. have stuck their necks out far enough rhetorically so that they really, really don’t want to trade him. #2… well… stay away from the Smiths for awhile.

by onlxn on Jun 30, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

The Smiths?

Not following…

And I’m never going to trust a single word that comes out of Nellie’s mouth… unless it’s “more Bud Light please”.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now?

Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want?

by jae on Jun 30, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What Difference Does It Make?

I Started Something I Couldn’t Finish?

Stop Me If You Think You’ve Heard This One Before?

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Girlfriend in a Coma. All time clasic

There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.

by qin on Jun 30, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s serious!

by b.radley on Jun 30, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

About #2

This is why Amare really frustrates me. For your proposed plan to work, you would have to assume that AR would not get abused by a lot of NBA centers. I just see a picture in my mind of Carlos Boozer throwing Randolph around like a rag doll. Amare has the tools to do it (speed, bulk, athleticism), he just doesn’t seem to want it bad enough.

by NextSeason on Jun 30, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we all have that picture in our heads. Really, though, Randolph’s results against big guys were a lot better than you’d expect from his frame. Did guys like Boozer push him around from time to time? Sure, but Boozer pushes most people around. I think Randolph can defend a lot of centers a lot of the time, not brilliantly, but credibly.

by onlxn on Jun 30, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Observationally, he’s freakishly strong for his frame and can move laterally like a guard (not a Warriors guard) to stay in front of face-up big men or perimeter players. He can also recover to block a shot after getting beat like few people I’ve ever watched.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

two cents
Didn’t Phoenix play him primarily at center for when they were a really good team, playing a knock-off of Nellie-ball? He’s almost assuredly going to be the starting center here if he comes. There is absolutely no reason that he can’t play along side Randolph or Turiaf. This is a non-argument supported by nothing.

BSD: I think you might have misunderstood Adam’s reasoning behind why AR and Turiaf would get reduced playing time. With STAT manning the 5 and BWright gone, Nellie would probably have Amare playing heavy minutes with the other two splitting time at the 4. Everyone loves both of those guys but they would not be playing side by side with Stoudemire on the roster.

Adam: I’m not a big fan of Maggette’s game but I have to admit that he played awesomely at the PF sometimes. I can remember two games against Portland where he took Lamarcus Aldridge out of the game with physical defense. It worked like a charm!!! I wish he could play that well against SFs on a regular basis but the truth is he is a great mismatch in our favor against certain PFs. On some of these ocassions, he made Nellie look like a genius.

Good arguments on both sides. Personally, I wouldn’t stake my franchise on a guy like Amare.

by NextSeason on Jun 30, 2009 11:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I can remember two games against Portland where he took Lamarcus Aldridge out of the game with physical defense. It worked like a charm!!!

I’m afraid that may say as much about Aldridge’s Charmin-soft game as it does about Maggs’ D.

(Blazer fans, do your worst).

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 30, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Nellie would probably have Amare playing heavy minutes with the other two splitting time at the 4.

You would have Amare as the starting 5 and Randolph as the starting 4. You’d have Turiaf backing up both positions. This would allow AR to focus on defense and rebounding while Amare is in and focus more developing his scoring when Turiaf is in. Turiaf can spell Randolph’s defense and be a passer and pick-setter on offense when paired with Amare.

Also, remember that Turiaf is a foul prone back-up that set his career-high in minutes last year with 21.5 per game.

There are 96 minutes per game ast the C and PF.

Amare’s career high = 36.8
Turiaf career high = 30.1
AR was at 17.9 but lets use Andris’s career high = 30

That’s 96.9 minutes and that is assuming two career highs and a 12 minute per game increase in from AR.

That’s why I think it works.

I think you might have misunderstood Adam’s reasoning behind why AR and Turiaf would get reduced playing time

I’m not being sarcastic here, but no reasoning was provided for me to misunderstand.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Turiaf is a foul prone back-up that set his career-high in minutes last year with 21.5 per game.
Turiaf career high = 30.1

???

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My source is never wrong
Re: Nellie would probably have Amare playing heavy minutes with the other two splitting time at the 4.

You would have Amare as the starting 5 and Randolph as the starting 4. You’d have Turiaf backing up both positions. This would allow AR to focus on defense and rebounding while Amare is in and focus more developing his scoring when Turiaf is in. Turiaf can spell Randolph’s defense and be a passer and pick-setter on offense when paired with Amare.

Also, remember that Turiaf is a foul prone back-up that set his career-high in minutes last year with 21.5 per game.

There are 96 minutes per game ast the C and PF.

Amare’s career high = 36.8
Turiaf career high = 30.1
AR was at 17.9 but lets use Andris’s career high = 30

That’s 96.9 minutes and that is assuming two career highs and a 12 minute per game increase in from AR.

That’s why I think it works.

    I think you might have misunderstood Adam’s reasoning behind why AR and Turiaf would get reduced playing time

I’m not being sarcastic here, but no reasoning was provided for me to misunderstand.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 4:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ha! I out-dummbed myself!

That should make everyone even happier: More Minutes for Maggette at the 4!

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nelson would go to great lengths to play his veterans ahead of Randolph, Wright, and even Biedrins in the low post. For the first two-thirds of the season we saw Maggette, Azubuike and even Jackson on occasion at power forward.
If we learned one thing from the 08-09 season, it was that Nelson would go to great lengths to play his veterans ahead of Randolph, Wright, and even Biedrins in the low post. For the first two-thirds of the season we saw Maggette, Azubuike and even Jackson on occasion at power forward. The results were rarely impressive, but Nelson repeatedly returned to his one big man line-up.

I agree with your proposed minute distribution although I’d give more minutes to Randolph and less to Turiaf. The point that Adam is getting at is that Nellie will inevitably give Maggette, Jax, and Azubuike minutes at the 4. Nellie uses mismatches like “small-ball” lineups to exploit the opposing player’s weaknesses (for big men, it’s usually speed).

I think the point is a bit speculative but from looking at Nellie’s track record, the only thing that would stop this from happening is AR developing a consistent outside/midrange shot because coach doesn’t like putting 2 non-shooters on the floor at the same time.

by NextSeason on Jun 30, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just want to say this is the best post/thread GSoM has seen in a long, long, long time. Every comment so far is by a GSoM’er whose comments I always stop to read when I scan through posts and not one has disappointed yet. If there was a way to super-rec a thread this one would earn it.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Don’t worry, I’m sure polar will be around shortly.

Thing C

by markdash on Jun 30, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

no

the post is way too long, if BSD’s authoring didn’t essentially promise it to have at least 2 or 3 great jokes I probably would’ve skipped it too.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Though

It’s hard to say it’s a “good” post when all of the REC’d comments are jokes… fun though.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I take that back

oxln’s post was pretty good and on topic to boot!

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and homer’s

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

:-P

I hit the page up/down buttons too fast. My bad y’alls.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still more back than forth

And I find myself coming back to what Adam calls intangibles.

Where is the center of leadership on this team? Baron is gone and that has left a vacuum. I fear the collective emotional intellligence of the Warriors takes a big hit with this trade. Whose team is it? Ellis’, Jackson’s, or Stoudemire’s? Will Nelson be shy about calling out Amare at a press conference for lazy D? Will Riley and Rowell be in way over their heads managing off court dramas? Does Stoudemire have it in him to be the team energizer the way Garnett was/is in Boston?

I can root for a 30 win team that is building around a young core of good guys. I can root for a 55 win team that has off court problems because, at least they come together on the court. But if the worst happens with this trade, I can imagine myself turning my back on this pathetic team for the first time since they surprised the world by sweeping the Bullets. Its risky.

Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

by fotd on Jun 30, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Where is the center of leadership on this team?

Nelson, Jackson & Turiaf.

Andris doesn’t seem to do much leading at all.

I think his captaincy was more of a motivational tool than anything since he doesn’t appear to do much talking on the court except to the refs. Even that is limited to “Oh, C.mon man!” and “That was Bullsh** call!”.

I fear the collective emotional intellligence of the Warriors takes a big hit with this trade. Whose team is it? Ellis’, Jackson’s, or Stoudemire’s?

I’m not sure what you mean by “emotional intelligence”. Can you elaborate?


Will Nelson be shy about calling out Amare at a press conference for lazy D?

No way. Stars get star treatment. Never bagged on Baron’s lazy D in an overt way, doesn’t overtly criticize Monta or Crawford’s D either.


Will Riley and Rowell be in way over their heads managing off court dramas? Does Stoudemire have it in him to be the team energizer the way Garnett was/is in Boston?

Probably not, but this is a different team and there is only 1 KG. Kind of like saying Monta will never be Kobe.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know what he means by “emotional intelligence”. Ever watched Jackson have a bad game? I’d say it happens about one in three, maybe one in four. Bitching about every call (including ones that were clearly legit via replay)… Stupid intentional fouls to protest “missed” calls. Failing to get back down the court on D… Generally disrupting the game because things aren’t going HIS way. Sometimes I want to go on the court and punch him myself. And I like the guy. I can’t imagine how Nellie keeps his cool.

I’ll admit that he’s turned himself into a good leader, generally speaking, but those bad games are just god-awful. So, to fotd’s point, are we supposed to be excited about “Checks out every few games” Jackson our leader? And frankly, he seems the most mature of the three…

Now, BSD your point is valid too — WHO is our leader? Clearly we’re lacking a credible one, and THAT, in a nutshell, is my primary concern with this team.

Say what you will about BD, but when he was here he was a fricking LEADER who commanded respect from his teammates and opponents. Man, what I wouldn’t give for one of those…

by b.radley on Jun 30, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

BD & Emotional Intelligence

The Dallas and Utah series showed how composed he is under pressure. Getting himself benched for the elimination game the following year tells us alot too. Getting pissy because Luke Ridenaur was outplaying him in Seattle (06-07 I think) and getting a T was just sorry. He was the leader and also selfish like a child sometimes. Not that I think that’s bad, seriously, just not what people are calling “emotionally intelligent”.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jul 1, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where is the center of leadership on this team? Baron is gone and that has left a vacuum.

This claim is brought up a lot, but I don’t know that I completely agree with it. Baron was our “leader” in the sense that he was our best player and point guard… I don’t get the sense that he was any sort of locker room leader or anything like that. In terms of emotional “leadership”, I think Jack’s probably been the closest thing we have to a leader since the day he showed up.

I fear the collective emotional intellligence of the Warriors takes a big hit with this trade.

Not impossible, but I can’t imagine that our collective emotional intelligence (however one would define or measure that) would rate too highly as things stand.

Whose team is it? Ellis’, Jackson’s, or Stoudemire’s?

In terms of who our basketball leaders are, it’ll have to be some combo of Amar’e and Monta. You can’t trade a boatload for a guy and then extend him at the max without him becoming your meal talent. He’ll be our featured player if he arrives, and rightfully so. Monta, meanwhile, is nominally our point guard and our best non-Amar’e player.

On a locker room, calling-dudes-out, quelling-drama level, I think our leader would continue to be Jack. And I’m okay with that… his track record on that front is pretty good. Last season made it clear that Jack’s quite bad at being a floor leader — nothing good comes of Jack believing he’s the best player on the floor. But that’s Nellie’s fault more than Jack’s, and with Amar’e and Monta aboard, I’m guessing Jack defers to them, at least on offense.

Honestly, I think the situation won’t be that much different from the “We Believe” roster. Monta and Amar’e provide the production, Jack provides the defense and the fire. It could easily not work out, but I don’t see any compelling reason to think it’s doomed.

Will Nelson be shy about calling out Amare at a press conference for lazy D?

Quite shy, I’d imagine. Nellie gave most people passes on weak defense last year, including himself. He’s just not gonna do that much anymore.

Will Riley and Rowell be in way over their heads managing off court dramas?

Possible, but logistically, I’m not seeing who’s likely to be unhappy this season. Wright, surely, but he’d be gone in this scenario. Monta’s our point guard and his contract is assured, so he should theoretically be fine. There aren’t enough minutes to go around at the 2 and 3, so maybe someone could get cranky there, and Nellie really pissing someone off is always a possibility… really, though, everyone will get money and minutes, in a fun, low-accountability system. I wouldn’t expect all that many storm clouds.

Does Stoudemire have it in him to be the team energizer the way Garnett was/is in Boston?

No. But for this to be a worthwhile and successful trade, the bar doesn’t need to be nearly that high.

by onlxn on Jun 30, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

nice answers, both

Wikipedia: >>>Emotional Intelligence (EI), often measured as an Emotional Intelligence Quotient (EQ), is a term that describes the ability, capacity, skill or (in the case of the trait EI model) a self-perceived ability, to identify, assess, and manage the emotions of one’s self, of others, and of groups1. <<< Sorry, wife’s a psychologist.

I don’t make the claim that Andris is a natural leader. I do think, though, he is probably the kind of guy who can roll with things and can help team chemistry. As a quality starting center who is young, you might expect his leadership qualities to grow.

Baron was a dynamo on and off the court. a smart guy, he grabbed the reins and never let go. He and “coach” had an understanding and his enforcers lined right up behind him. It worked. I’m not in the camp of wanting to see him back with HIS inconsistent D, intermittant lazy shots, and large contract, but no one guessed who was in charge back then.

Ideally, Stoudemire would be the kind of guy who had a vision how the Warriors could win and was good at communicating it to his teammates. that is not the description I’ve heard. My worry is that Nash has been much more than someone who fed him the ball. Jackson is smart enough. He and Monta work well together. Perhaps they can hold it together during the tough times.

Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

by fotd on Jun 30, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You make a good point re: Andris being level-headed. I think he’s the most steady of the bunch, which counts for something. The alternative is a shorter fuse…the more short fuses, the better the odds something’s going to blow…

by b.radley on Jun 30, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well crap...

I should have just kept reading; then I could have just +1’ed onixn’s follow up…

by b.radley on Jun 30, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keep Adrich BeedRich.

(andris biedrins)

Romes Mac Mojous

by ROMESdavidWOOD37 on Jun 30, 2009 2:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The Milsap Option

Not sure if anybody mentioned this but what about trying for a sign and trade to Utah for either Boozer or Milsap. Boozer just opted in and now they can’t afford both unless they go over the cap. Last year they were one of the teams interested in Maggette and they still lack a scoring two. If we could land either one I think its just what we need or at the very least talking to them could put some pressure on the Suns to accept our deal.

by FIREROWELL on Jun 30, 2009 3:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Do you think Boozer (or Milsap) wants to play here? Sign-and-trades require the player to want to go somewhere, usually because that team is willing to pay him more than he deserves.

by jae on Jun 30, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s true wasn’t aware they needed the players consent before being moved my mistake. Well I doubt Boozer would want to play here, but I could see Milsap in a Dubs Jersey if he were given assurance that he could come in and start right away. Which with Boozer back he’s gonna be fighting for minutes. I’m not sure he fits our style though but the dude does hit the boards hard.

by FIREROWELL on Jun 30, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great thread...

I’m kind of late to the party here, but this was a great read. For the record, I’m still leaning towards pulling the trigger but I don’t find disagreeing with Sleepy and Adam a very comfortable position to be in. This is really a tough call when you’ve got most of us flip-flopping by the day (hour?) and “Things” disagreeing with one another.

It does kind of remind me of the Baron trade in some ways. We had an opportunity to bring in a “troubled” player that was also capable of being an exceptional NBA talent in the right circumstances. Looking back we really couldn’t be sure what we were going to get at the time. I think the thing that made that risk so much easier to handle as fans was that, while we gave up a valuable commodity on the trade market (D.D.‘s expiring contract), we didn’t really give up anything valuable on the basketball court.

I know that we are all saying that giving up AB and Wright isn’t what scares us, it’s the risk that we’ll be paying Amare big money to do his best “Fat Kemp” impersonation in a couple years (which is obviously a huge part of it), but I think if we are honest the thought of watching Amare sit there in a suit while Andris and Wright could be playing in their first All-star games is making this a tough one to sign off on. It just makes the worst case scenario that much worse.

Chances are, that won’t happen though. Chances are that little will change. Amar’e (hey look at that I finally broke down) will probably still perform around his career averages for a few more years (which would make him overpaid, but not a franchise killer by any means). Andris will likely be the productive, yet unspectacular center that we’ve all come to love/hate. And Wright will probably be a very efficient scorer who doesn’t see the court enough because most coaches don’t like to watch their starting PF get pushed around down low.

I think this is just one of those things you’ve got to do. This puts us solidly in the playoff hunt for years to come, with a chance of being much more if we can catch a little luck here and there.

Seriously guys, we have an opportunity to land one of the better PF’s in the game and we aren’t even giving up Randolph. Things can’t end up that bad, can they?

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 30, 2009 5:59 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

Re: I’m kind of late to the party here

Just remember to party responsibly . . .

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jun 30, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

we aren’t even giving up Randolph. Things can’t end up that bad, can they?

Yep, we are greatly upgrading the center posistion when we swap the 2 major pieces of the trade. Than we are tossing in 2 guys one with potential(Wright) and one with not so much(Belinelli) who are not going to work in our system because of our stubborn coach and a quality role player. There is a risk of course that Amare flames out in a year or two and we are stuck footing the bill.

Word on the street now is Amare doesnt want to come to the bay and he won’t sign a extension. Not sure if this is his form of leverage to guarantee himself a max contract if he does get traded here or is he is being geniune. While I guess I am pro trade still, I am not dissapointed by this ‘breaking news’ of Amare not wanting to play in Oakland. We’ll see how this plays out. The one thing we got going for us, if this is a poker game, Nellie is going to give in and give up Curry to make the deal.

Thing B

by warriorsscore110 on Jun 30, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Than we are tossing in 2 guys one with potential(Wright) and one with not so much(Belinelli)

I would be doing backflips if that’s the trade, but it’s not. Phoenix wants Curry and maybe Kelenna too. I’m much less happy if Curry is involved, and mildly disappointed (but not overly) if Kelenna is involved.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You keep throwing out this list of guys making/not making max money but I dont really understand what your point is…..The guys who make max money and deserve (Kobe, Duncan, KG…) tend to play for better teams than guys who make max money and don’t deserve it. Guys who don’t make max money but deserve it seem to have an even better overall record……. But thats pretty much what anyone would guess, we’re just trying to determine how close Amare comes to deserving max money, who else is making max money really doesn’t matter nearly as much as who else is on the Warriors team and how much of the salary cap do they consume.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What don't you understand?
You keep throwing out this list of guys making/not making max money but I dont really understand what your point is

Straight from my post: Basically what I’m saying is everyone is gonna get paid one way or another by the 2010 summer free agency.

Guys who don’t make max money but deserve it seem to have an even better overall record…….

Again, straight from the post: Basically what I’m saying is everyone is gonna get paid one way or another by the 2010 summer free agency.

But thats pretty much what anyone would guess, we’re just trying to determine how close Amare comes to deserving max money, who else is making max money really doesn’t matter

How would that not matter? My point is that someone like Tim Duncan, one of the best forwards ever, deserves 20+ million a year and Amare obviously isn’t worth that much. But someone like Michael Redd, who is a very good player, gets $15+ million a year? There is no reason that Amare should not get big money considering the player he is, which is my point. He’s worth the money.

by Captain Jack on Jun 30, 2009 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Basically what I’m saying is everyone is gonna get paid one way or another by the 2010 summer free agency.

Ok, nobody is saying Amare won’t GET a max deal, some are just saying he isn’t worth a max deal. Comparing him to guys who aren’t worth their contracts doesn’t make him any more worthy of the contract. By that logic Monta deserves a max contract too because Stevie Franchise has one. Biedrins has outproduced Jermaine O’Neal the last few years, does that make him worthy of a max deal? Thats just terrible logic, and operating like that will get a team into a huge salarly cap mess. Again, my point is you have to consider what percentage of your own team’s salary cap he’s worth.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 30, 2009 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ok, nobody is saying Amare won’t GET a max deal, some are just saying he isn’t worth a max deal.

Yeah, that’s it. In the NBA economy he’s almost certainly “earned” a max deal. You’d have a hard time finding a better offensive big man in the world. In the NBA people get paid primarily for their offensive output. That doesn’t make it right, but that’s the way it is.

In a perfect world it would be much better to get ourselves a max player that plays on both ends of the floor, has a great attitude, is coachable, and can lead a team to the Finals (Hmm, I’m not a big Tim Duncan fan, but I’m certain I just made him my ideal player…) but considering no such player is available, we might have to settle for a guy who is overwhelmingly good on one end of the floor and has some question marks.

It’s not often you get the opportunity to upgrade the best player on your team. It will be an overpay if we can get him, but for all of us who have been repeating the “we need more talented players” mantra, this certainly fits the bill.

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 30, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

...except for one critical point.

The “NBA economy” is changing. I suspect you’ll see fewer and fewer bad max contracts going forward. The economic collapse reset expectations by people WITH money about the VALUE of that money. That means owners are going to be much more hesitant about giving out those big deals. Especially if they struggle with ticket sales in a weaker economy this season… So, yes, there will be max contracts out there, but they won’t be a given like they were in the past.

Two years ago folks thought Boozer was cruisin’ for a max deal. Now, granted, he had an injury in there to muddy the waters, but he’s now basically betting against getting anything more than $12M (by choosing not to opt out). RIGHT NOW, in particular, is a tough time to get a big contract. BUT, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be any better next year…

All this leads to an important decision agents — and in particular, Amare’s agent — are trying to make. Do they wait until 2010 and hope the economy gets better, or do they bet that the options might get worse if they wait, with the Luxury Cap adjusting down and an overcrowded free agent pool. How many max contracts will REALLY get handed out in 2010?

Amare might have a better chance getting one this year than next; the one thing he has going for him is that he’s going to be one of the best big men available…

As an aside, I’ve thought all along that Amare wants to go to Miami and team with Wade. Obviously there are two premiere places a big man wants to land: with Wade and with Lebron. However, this changing financial landscape makes it MUCH LESS certain that ANY team would be willing to offer TWO max contracts… so, in spite of his desires,he has to consider re-upping this year.

“Get while the gettin’s good”, as they say.

That’s a lot of thoughts with no specific direction, but I thought it was worth mentioning…

by b.radley on Jun 30, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Olympicmike nailed it for me

I gotta point out: It’s stupid the way things work in the NBA. He will get a max deal. The point is that if we want him that badly he’s worth the max deal IMO. The reason why I put players like Jermaine O’neal and Steve Francis on there is because I wanted to make a point that Amare has outproduced these guys in the last few years, making my argument stronger that he deserves a max contract with us. What has Monta and Biedrins proven? Good starters, nothing more, so why would they get a big contract like Francis or O’neal, two former all stars?

Thats just terrible logic, and operating like that will get a team into a huge salarly cap mess.

Our team isn’t in a huge salary mess? This is our chance to make our big 2010 FA signing, except a year earlier. Do you honestly think we’ll land a big FA? This to me is as good as time as any to “shake up” our team.

by Captain Jack on Jun 30, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

The reason why I put players like Jermaine O’neal and Steve Francis on there is because I wanted to make a point that Amare has outproduced these guys in the last few years, making my argument stronger that he deserves a max contract with us.

But thats still the kind of failed logic that leads to terrible decisions. I’m not saying Amare definitely will be an awful decision, but his dollar worth should be measured by what he will contribute to our team and how much we’re willing to handcuff ourselves in future years not by what other guys make. Yes he’s outperformed Jermaine O’Neal recently, but there was a time when O’Neal was close to as productive of a player as Amare has been and now his giant contract looks like a mistake. At the time he had earned it and I’m sure you could’ve presented a very similar list of guys making max money, but that doesn’t mean that the injuries, his moodiness, and relatively limited offensive game shouldn’t have raised some red flags. The same can be said for Amare. The argument o.m. and others are making about Amare being a clear upgrade in talent which is exactly what we’ve been looking for forever is one I really don’t have much of a counter argument for. Its the reason why I’m not totally against this trade at all. In fact, I kinda feel like he’s probably worth the risk if Curry isn’t involved, after all we don’t have a whole heckuva a lot to lose. I would slightly prefer to hang on to our guys and see if an opportunity with a couple fewer red-flags or a little bit smaller price tag doesn’t present itself, but I’m not going to be upset about it if we cash in the trade chips now for Amare.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jul 1, 2009 2:02 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Dude... get some sleep

But, REC. The fact that Jermaine O’Neal is being paid $20M is not a reason to pay somebody who’s more productive $20M. By that reasoning, Andris, Troy Murphy, Emeka Okafor, Marc Gasol, Brad Miller, Nene, etc. ALL deserve $20M, which clearly blows giant holes in your simplistic reasoning.

As sam said, Jermaine O’Neal was highly productive when he signed the contract, and injuries, etc. have degraded his productivity. Some risks pay off, some do not.

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 1, 2009 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Basically what I’m saying is everyone is gonna get paid one way or another by the 2010 summer free agency.

Where do I sign? I’ll even offer a 20% discount if you sign me this year, I’ll only take 10M/season. Seriously, where do I friggin sign!!!

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 30, 2009 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very good read

Both guys pointed out some interesting stuff. I think its great that we’ve got this much discussion over the trade rumor since we’re not automatically saying yes just because Amare’s a “star.”

Adam brings some excellent points about Amare’s intangibles and its effect on team chemistry, which does have a significant impact with how successful we’ll be in the long run. Will be be able to become a good leader for our young guys to follow? Or will he whine about having to play center or share his minutes with Randolph at PF? A slight decline won’t outright destroy our playoff hopes, but being a team cancer can. This is not to say that Amare will be an unmotivated primadonna for sure, but it might be worth taking into consideration maybe 4-5 years down the line when he’s right in the middle of his max extension.

Then again, I recall that fans seem to hate Maggette for being the indifferent and emotionless stat padder as well, which is the opposite side of the spectrum with regards to Amare’s reported attitude.

by WYK on Jun 30, 2009 6:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

have you heard Basketbawful's nickname for Mags?

It’s “Bad Porn.”

because there’s plenty of penetration and scoring, but it’s not that fun to watch.

by bebopmonkey on Jul 1, 2009 2:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

No kidding?

:)

Thing C

by markdash on Jul 1, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?!?!?!

I’ve never heard that before!

You have been DFiBrillated.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 1, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

really? weird that nobody has brought that up before.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jul 1, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Basketwawful is one of my favorite sites ever! Not the originator of the awesome "bad porn"moniker . . .

http://dimemag.com/2008/12/corey-maggette-is-bad-porn/


As if the five-year, $50 million deal that the Warriors gave Corey Maggette wasn’t bad enough, apparently fans on Warriors message boards have come up with a new nickname for him: "Bad Porn."

Their justification? "Sure, there’s penetration and scoring, but are you really happy with what you’re seeing?" Wow, that’s amazing.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jul 1, 2009 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops, the whole thing should have been blockquoted and http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/ is best-in-class.

Reduce your carbon footprint, commit suicide.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jul 1, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

"UNSTOPPABLE BABY!"

Golden State Warriors rookie Marc Jackson to the Mavericks' bench, after hitting a lay-up during a 29-point loss (2000)

Start posting about the Warriors »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Five Good Things So Far
484214594_82b6b3554a_small
The Warriors as Simpsons
Drmlg_logo-gmail_small
Live-Tweeting from Row 8!!! (GSoM's Charity Auction seats)

Recent FanPosts

Small
They're bad
Clipsnation_small
Attention SoCal Dubs Fans
Small
Why Wright's injury could help the team
Drmlg_logo-gmail_small
Need extras in a basketball-related Doritos commercial
Small
Time to get someone to listen (ala Cleveland Browns)
We_re_back__small
Terms of Service and Moderation on GSoM...
Drmlg_logo-gmail_small
New Warriors logo
Chuck_norris_small
Should we try to get Brand?
Small
Maggette or: How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Ballhog
Small
Yet Another Trade Proposal...

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

GSoM Motto

"UNSTOPPABLE BABY!"

Golden State Warriors rookie Marc Jackson to the Mavericks' bench, after hitting a lay-up during a 29-point loss (2000)

Ads

SPONSORS

2009-2010 Around the Association

2009-2010 Golden State Warriors Preview

Golden State Warriors 2k9-2k10 Super Preview Blowout Special!


GSoM Crew -------------------------

Atma-160_small Atma Brother ONE

Gw090_small Fantasy Junkie

--------------------------------------------------------

Small Hash

Small dj fuzzylogic

--------------------------------------------------------

We_still_believe_small R Dizzle

Small Adam Lauridsen

Chef_randolph_gs_small Tony.psd

Japan_by_miaumi_small YaoButtaMing

Small jae